9972 réponses à ce sujet

[cyrrant]

blurryhunter wrote...

I've played dozens of MMOs and I never saw them as anything other then another game. It's just a different business model. There's nothing about MMOs that say they can't be engaging, have stories, and invest you the same way a game like Mass Effect has. It's just that no one has done it; successfully or at all. I believe it is simply the fault of the industry just settling for what's been done before.

I played Star Wars: The Old Republic and I liked the way they wove story into it and all of the throw backs they had to the Knights of the Old Republic series (there were a lot; pretty impressed by them considering how long the series had been mothballed). In the end, however, the 'MMO' portion of the game was just too similar to games of that genre that came before it, so I left it. Do I regret getting the collectors edition of the game? At first, yes. But looking back on it, I am a fan of the Star Wars universe and BioWare didn't really do wrong by me, they just didn't change the parts of the genre that have become so stale. They simply added something new to it; story. Sadly, the way they implemented it wasn't something that I found lasting enough to overthrow what I'd come to dislike about the MMO games prior to it.

Anyhow; I've thought about this whole thing involving the endings. Both sides of the situation, though I'll say with certainty that out of the number of people talking about the game, more of them feel injustice compared to those that say they were fine with it. The vocal are heard, simply by being vocal. That being said, while I was taken about and felt the culmination of everything lacking, I believe that regardless of whether BioWare steps out and actually does something to remedy the issues people have been voicing or not, nothing but good can come of this.

Any developer, at least in the near future, is going to think twice (or it would behoove them to, anyway) before settling on an ending to any well loved series. Regardless of any thoughts on justification, both for or against, this is a PR backlash that just can't be ignored by anyone in the industry for fear of a repeat.

I'm on the fence though, about whether the endings were meant to be final or, as the Indoctrination Theory would lead one to believe, meant to be added upon; expanded if you will. I've seen many things that would lead someone to think one way or the other. At the moment, I'll ride out the storm and see what the outcome is.

In the end, however, I'm impressed by the sheer number of people willing to put forth concise and thorough input on their issues. Especially when you consider how this could (and based on past history with forums, should) have turned out.

What I'm content to toss my chips into, however, is Nadtsat's 'signature note'. Justice to Tali's picture. Didn't mind the setup. Nice concept. A bed-stand picture to look at and a nice, simple, sweet scene with music during the interaction with it, but to put so little into the effort just disappoints me. They have, and can, do better. Their series deserves it. They themselves deserve to see their series do better. That goes for the conclusion to the series as well.

Sorry, this is getting longer then I wanted, but to that last part, I wanted to add something I recalled. I once told a friend of mine that, because he was a good friend, I expected him to tell me, straight to my face, when I screwed up. I didn't care what words he used, but I wanted the truth. I expect my friends to call me out when I make errors, no matter how big or small.

BioWare has become more to many then just a developer of games they look forward to. They have become friends, directly or indirectly. And I, for one, believe the right thing to do is to call your friend out when their wrong, no matter the cost.

This is a well-thought-out post, I am glad that you have come to voice your opinion, and I agree that there will be good that comes of this, regardless of the outcome.  The charity drive (closing on $70k) especially is something that I will remember fondly when this is all over.  Hopefully this will also lead to a changing of attitudes in the gaming industry, and the more we work towards getting the endings fixed, the more likely that outcome is.  I hope that you will stick around and continue to provide us with the same kinds of insights you posted previously, even if you don't want to officially join the movement.

Our Choices Should Matter - Hold the Line

Modifié par cyrrant, 20 mars 2012 - 08:17 .

[OhManTFE]

Stanley Woo wrote...
Threads are locked if they are not story and campaign related. Since we already have a couple of threads discussing the protest movement, new threads discussing only the protest movement or addressing the protest movement will likelt be locked. This is not decret information, and I would have gladly told you all of this had you but asked in a private message. Jumping to conclusions and crafting conspiracy theories based on half-considered circumstantial evidence does none of us--least of all your "cause"--any good.

I like how he puts cause in quotation marks... how belittling and rude.

[RagingCeltik]

I'm seeing a LOT of articles referring to El_Spiko and his FTC complaint and referring to us a vocal minority (which vocally we might be). They articles seem slanted to paint us in a negative, whiney light. Do you think El_Spiko is doing more damage than good with his statement?

[IndustrializedTaco]

OhManTFE wrote...

Stanley Woo wrote...
Threads are locked if they are not story and campaign related. Since we already have a couple of threads discussing the protest movement, new threads discussing only the protest movement or addressing the protest movement will likelt be locked. This is not decret information, and I would have gladly told you all of this had you but asked in a private message. Jumping to conclusions and crafting conspiracy theories based on half-considered circumstantial evidence does none of us--least of all your "cause"--any good.

I like how he puts cause in quotation marks... how belittling and rude.

To clarify he was getting back at the people who had been taking pot shots at him, also the "cause" thing was sarcasm because this isn't really a cause it's a protest. A cause would be trying to cure cancer. I thought that at first too. I hope I helped clear this up. He wasn't trying to belittle anyone.
Edit- Sorry typo.

Modifié par beetlebailey123, 20 mars 2012 - 08:20 .

[Lil One]

To me, my Shephard, the current "ending" feels a lot like Jack's poem:

"My soul
Burns
With a fire of darkness
Quenched only in the pain
Of lonliness
I hold my breath waiting
Until spots appear black as the past
And fill my lungs with lies of hope
I mark myself
Black and jagged
To cover the scars
That make me a monster
A warning
This is not a place of honour
No esteemed dead buried here"

Made into a child in the end of the journey, with no say, leaving little hope for the rest of the galaxy with the relays gone...

[cyrrant]

OhManTFE wrote...

Stanley Woo wrote...
Threads are locked if they are not story and campaign related. Since we already have a couple of threads discussing the protest movement, new threads discussing only the protest movement or addressing the protest movement will likelt be locked. This is not decret information, and I would have gladly told you all of this had you but asked in a private message. Jumping to conclusions and crafting conspiracy theories based on half-considered circumstantial evidence does none of us--least of all your "cause"--any good.

I like how he puts cause in quotation marks... how belittling and rude.

We've long since put this whole thing behind us, and I think the consensus is that Mr. Woo meant no offense by anything he's been saying.  We have to consider that our movement has made his job as a moderator significantly harder.  I'm sure I wouldn't be too pleasant if I had to be the face of my company in a hostile environment.

That being said, don't let this humanization dull your call for ending fixes.  That's what we're all here for, because Mass Effect deserved a better finale than it got.

Our Choices Should Matter - Hold the Line

Modifié par cyrrant, 20 mars 2012 - 08:22 .

[Utopianus]

OhManTFE wrote...

Stanley Woo wrote...
Threads are locked if they are not story and campaign related. Since we already have a couple of threads discussing the protest movement, new threads discussing only the protest movement or addressing the protest movement will likelt be locked. This is not decret information, and I would have gladly told you all of this had you but asked in a private message. Jumping to conclusions and crafting conspiracy theories based on half-considered circumstantial evidence does none of us--least of all your "cause"--any good.

I like how he puts cause in quotation marks... how belittling and rude.

It's probably the first signs of him cracking under stress as that is indeed very unprofessional, however I think we had reached a consensus earlier to just leave it be - no need to make it out bigger than it actually is.

[Graphf]

hey Bachuck, just wanted to say thanks for Updating the OP all the time! It is appreciated!

also gonna leave this hear for those that haven't see it yet.

[wigge1]

"Finally remember, they have much more data at their disposal. They know
how sales are going, how much time people are playing that are synced
into Origin, etc. 
They will watch those numbers this weekend. If sales
slow, watch for price cutting within 10 days (just over the two week US
release date). 
It will mean that retailers are getting nervous and will
slow new unit orders. As I’ve said before, this will come down to hard
currency. If the protests start having an effect on that front, the
response will come."

And as predicted the price for X-box is slashed by 20$
http://www.joystiq.c...t-store-online/

[Fulgrim88]

SkaldFish wrote...

It occurs to me reading this that maybe we're taking on more than is reasonable. It probably makes more sense for us to stick with what we consider to be the problems with the current ending instead of suggesting solutions. In the end, assuming this is all taken seriously and theteam starts debating change control options, the team will end up with a list of "approved" issues/defects, then they'll use their knowledge of the game implementation, schedule, budget, resource availability, and estimated effort to determine what they can actually do. It's always going to be about tradeoffs even if they decide to do something.

Well, it occurs to me that fixing the swiss cheese of plotholes that is the current ending would actually require more work than writing a number of completely new ones.

Whatever they'll come up with, the only way to fix the current ending is to either let it all end with a plain "Nope. Just indoctrination, move along", then proceed to the "real" endings, or to cut out the whole god-child stuff alltogether

[maki0129]

It's unlikely that the endings that are already there will disappear regardless of how the movement progresses from now on. That's not pessimism, that's just realism. For some people, the endings are already alright and they don't have to change anything. That's fine for me if they want to respect those fans.

My point is, why shouldn't we as a movement, respect them as well?

We may not agree with their opinion, but I think we can at least agree that they are entitled to it.

So anyone comes into the forum, saying "we loved the ending" we can say, we really respect that, we don't want what you think is a great ending taken away from you. We just wish there was an ending that actually satisfied US.

[Vilegrim]

Stanley Woo wrote...

TurambarEA wrote...

Volion wrote...

Noatz wrote...

I like how Stanley Woo is saying "End of Line." whenever he locks a thread.

This could just be an ironic turn of phrase, but it is also possible he is doing it specifically to try and get under people's skin.

Don't rise to it.

"End of Line." The phrase was most famously used by the Master Control Program in TRON. 
It is similar to human phrases like, "End of communication", "That's final", and "That will be all".

There's no way he picked it absent of thought for our unofficial catch cry 'hold the line'. I thought it was somewhat inflammatory as well (throwing sarcasm at already agitated people is always going to be inflammatory) but yes, agreed, don't rise to it.

I don't see how any threads concerning the endings or reactions to them can be considered not to be relevant to the story/campaign but if he's locking that thread for not being story related, then this one is really no different. Any Plan B in the event they start locking our threads?

"End of line" predates "hold the line"  by approximately 25 years. I have been using it for at least 9 years, since before Mass Effect 1. It is an homage to the Mster Control Program in the 1982 Disny movie "Tron," not a dig at anyone's cause or protest movement. If you believe it is inflammatory, then I would suggest that you're overthinking things and should perhaps learn a little more about me and the movie I am referencing.

Threads are locked if they are not story and campaign related. Since we already have a couple of threads discussing the protest movement, new threads discussing only the protest movement or addressing the protest movement will likelt be locked. This is not decret information, and I would have gladly told you all of this had you but asked in a private message. Jumping to conclusions and crafting conspiracy theories based on half-considered circumstantial evidence does none of us--least of all your "cause"--any good.

thank you.

And the constant tweeting of attack articles and videos by the BW staff does your company harm sir.

[Nithe]

@kalamity: Yes, it is.

It's easy to dehumanize the opposite side, actually I'm almost sure it's human nature. We can't forget that most of us here loved Mass Effect, ME 2, and almost the entirety of ME 3, and that we should also extol its good points whenever we condemn its, admittedly, tragic flaws.

Here goes:

The writers of the Mass Effect series, including those involved in the third installment, managed to create a universe populated by characters that I love. Characters that I'm willing to spend my limited free time with, rather than other characters from different stories or actual people.

The gameplay devs created what was at times not always a frustration free experience, but almost always a satisfying one. To date, I have personally invested three hundred plus hours in playing and replaying the Mass Effect series. The only other game that I can make a similar claim about is the Baldur's Gate series, and then I was younger and had more free time on my hands, so it's not as powerful a statement as my first.

Also, I genuinely like Bioware as a company. They are lgbt inclusive; populated by gamers who understand the value of story, unlike so many today who are satisfied with big budget effects and multiplayer; and above all, they have a history of excellence that many gamers have come to trust. Of course, this is a relationship that has come under strain in recent years, significantly now with ME3.

I hope, out of what I think I can safely label as a debacle, that the ultimate result is a repaired relationship between Bioware and its fanbase. Perhaps even a stronger one, more tempered by experience through dark times.

And I hope that as this goes on, more people in our movement will come forward and share the positive aspects of their relationship with Bioware and the Mass Effect series. Because redknight38 is right, we have a long history with these people and this does not have to end in tragedy, and if we reach out to them they may just surprise us yet.

Edit: As they say, hold the line.

Modifié par Nithe, 20 mars 2012 - 08:47 .

[Yusta1]

wheelierdan wrote...

cjmarsh725 wrote...

 I think this is a good thread that deserves some more attention:

social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/355/index/10294737/1#10294737

done and done!

Done and done too!

[OneWithTheAssassins]

I can see how an entire new ending would be costly for Bioware. The indoctrination therory lets them keep there "hard work" and we get to have a true ending like we've always wanted. They could charge us for it (even though that could anger many people) and the people how actualy liked the ending (as shocking as it is) can choose NOT to download it and everyones happy.

[Commander Waha]

I don't understand the problem, honestly.

The way I see it, it's as simple as this.

If your EMS was high enough to see shepard take a breath, you qualify to play the new DLC. The new DLC is of shadow broker length/quality. I don't think anyone would complain about paying for that. I highly doubt that EA/Bioware intentionally sold us a bad ending with the game to make money on DLC later, so I'm very willing to shill out for a "fix".

[Zozo]

Bioware, just embraces the indoctrination theory and and use it to brag everywhere that this was the plan since the beginning: create all this buzz about the ending, and some time later, give the fans a proper ending. I'm pretty sure everyone will say that's a geniuses plan. I personally don't care if it isn't the plan, I just wanna my Mass Effect with and ending that at least made some sense, not this coloured ofense to the series lore.

And important: do it for free. I already paid for a game that should include a proper ending in the first place.

Modifié par Zozo, 20 mars 2012 - 08:52 .

[OneWithTheAssassins]

Ok, I know this has nothing to do with our cause, but this is WAY too funny not to show, and maybe it'll bring people out of there funk. I know it got me out of it.

Hold the line!

[Emberwake]

maki0129 wrote...

It's unlikely that the endings that are already there will disappear regardless of how the movement progresses from now on. That's not pessimism, that's just realism. For some people, the endings are already alright and they don't have to change anything. That's fine for me if they want to respect those fans.

My point is, why shouldn't we as a movement, respect them as well?

We may not agree with their opinion, but I think we can at least agree that they are entitled to it.

So anyone comes into the forum, saying "we loved the ending" we can say, we really respect that, we don't want what you think is a great ending taken away from you. We just wish there was an ending that actually satisfied US.

Simply put, I don't respect any claims that the ending is good because they don't hold up to scrutiny. In order to claim that the ending is good, you must either, a) accept plot devices which have been universally reviled for literally thousands of years, or, reject any semblance of logic.

People love to use their opinions as unassailable walls, but the truth is our opinions are generally formed about factual events. It is demonstrable that ME3's ending relies upon a deus ex machina who proceeds to spew information not thematically consistent with the rest of the franchise. In order to maintain that such an ending is good, you must accept these elements as good writing. Wherupon you will lose all credibility, as basically all of human literary history is stacked against you.

Hold the line.

[Yusta1]

beetlebailey123 wrote...

Joystig is reporting that the game is selling at 39.99 on Microsoft store online. Here is the story. http://www.joystiq.c...t-store-online/

Atghunter i's a wizard! A space wizard!

[Aetius5]

Longest OP ever lol. Good stuff, keep up the heat! Give us the ending we deserve!

[count_4]

Darth_Trethon wrote...
What blows me away is simply how ridiculous their reasoning behind the ending must have been....did they REALLY for one second think that ending would be acceptable?

Unfortunately, any possible answer to this is bad.
Either they didn't intend to go this way and were forced to. Probably by EA and the deadline. This means BioWare has completely lost control over their work as the ending is probably the most important part of a trilogy. Being forced to dump it down for profit of the publisher is the worst thing that could happen.
Or they did intend to end Mass Effect this way. This means that lead writer Mac Walters, producer Casey Hudson and the creative lead (Preston Watamaniuk? I don't know) actually thought this ending to make sense, be a 
coherent conclusion to this series and please the fans. Which presents an utter lack of familiarity with the franchise and proper judgement within the ranks of the creative core and production.
And that would indicate a grim future for any game coming out of Edmonton at this point unless said people are...repurposed.
If the people responsible at BioWare can make such grievous mistakes without them being noticed by anyone higher up the food chain, can we take anything for granted from BioWare in the future?

Modifié par count_4, 20 mars 2012 - 09:05 .

[IndustrializedTaco]

Southwest Missouri fleet signing out for the night see you tomorrow gents.

[daemiendrake]

Wow. Every time I check in 5-8 new pages. Granted I also get to see Atg's words of wisdom or Cyrrant being as welcoming as ever. Then again I also feel like this thread has become a second home. Anyways, not going to get long winded here. I've read a couple of posts talking about how long until we have Ending DLC or even an answer as to what will happen. The one thing I can say about this is that it does not matter. We have set our course and must now hold the line until some sort of resolution/closure is in hand. Trust me, I know what it's like to see a mission go unfinished. We cannot allow that to happen. It's almost as bad as what started all this. But I know, seeing the dedication amongst us, that we WILL hold the line. We WILL stand firm. Our voices WILL be heard and we WILL see this through to the very end.(Unless said end is Red, Blue or Green and/or preceded by a creepy star-god-kid-thing)
As always, this ex-soldier and current Commander Shephard salutes all of you.
Hold the line.
SSV Nor-Cal signing off.

[elsunga]

It would be nice to fix ending similar way as in first Stalker. There were some kind of "indoctination" endings but if you would be smart enough and choose wisely you could continue and real ending came hours later.