9972 réponses à ce sujet

[Psythorn]

maki0129 wrote...

It's unlikely that the endings that are already there will disappear regardless of how the movement progresses from now on. That's not pessimism, that's just realism. For some people, the endings are already alright and they don't have to change anything. That's fine for me if they want to respect those fans.

My point is, why shouldn't we as a movement, respect them as well?

We may not agree with their opinion, but I think we can at least agree that they are entitled to it.

So anyone comes into the forum, saying "we loved the ending" we can say, we really respect that, we don't want what you think is a great ending taken away from you. We just wish there was an ending that actually satisfied US.

I fully agree with that. While most of the people liking the current endings do not understand why we do not please let us not be as ignorant. I've no problem with the current ending[s] beeing [a] possible outcome[s]. But I  really like more variations. And I personally do really want ONE variation beeing a brighter ending as I do not think that letting the hero die at the very end is mature, hip, stylish or anything. With all that my Shep had to endure he MIGHT be willing to sacrifice parts of the fleet to survive. Or the people/the admiral whoever could take that decision for him in this case because Shep is needed as a leader... Dunno... Not going to do Biowares writers  work...

[HALO_Project]

CommanderConnor wrote...


For a little insight into me I am an artist by profession and passion. Perhaps this is why I have been so touched by the response to Mass Effect. Video games are entertainment, but they are no more or less art than literature. This is proven by how it inspires an emotional response it its players. That does not negate a negative response to the ending and a desire to change it. If art were so concrete in its convictions and it never evolved due to critique we would all be producing finger-paintings. Critique of a work can and should influence its evolution, and if it is not listened to or disregarded then the author is missing out of further expansion of their work. No artist should be stubborn and stick to their guns 100% of the time, it suggests they have lost the passion to grow. I would truly be honored if people presented me with so many well-formulated critiques. It shows their level of care for the work itself.

I apologize for this lengthy post. In short, continue standing up for what you believe in. There are people out there that are inspired by what you are doing, and have been moved to join you.

Thank you and, I think I speak for most everyone in the movement when I say, welcome to our ranks. 

[Emberwake]

Psythorn wrote...

maki0129 wrote...

It's unlikely that the endings that are already there will disappear regardless of how the movement progresses from now on. That's not pessimism, that's just realism. For some people, the endings are already alright and they don't have to change anything. That's fine for me if they want to respect those fans.

My point is, why shouldn't we as a movement, respect them as well?

We may not agree with their opinion, but I think we can at least agree that they are entitled to it.

So anyone comes into the forum, saying "we loved the ending" we can say, we really respect that, we don't want what you think is a great ending taken away from you. We just wish there was an ending that actually satisfied US.

I fully agree with that. While most of the people liking the current endings do not understand why we do not please let us not be as ignorant. I've no problem with the current ending[s] beeing [a] possible outcome[s]. But I  really like more variations. And I personally do really want ONE variation beeing a brighter ending as I do not think that letting the hero die at the very end is mature, hip, stylish or anything. With all that my Shep had to endure he MIGHT be willing to sacrifice parts of the fleet to survive. Or the people/the admiral whoever could take that decision for him in this case because Shep is needed as a leader... Dunno... Not going to do Biowares writers  work...

Dissent is not ignorant. Not all opinions are equally valid. Opinions backed by reasoned argument are vastly superior to opinions presented without any justification. Most of the threads in which the apologists have argued in favor of the current ending either focus on how we the players "have no right" to demand change, or amount to little more than plugging their ears and saying "NUH-uh".

Flip back one page and check out my earlier response to the same post. I can defend my opinions. I can challenge the opinions of those who claim the end is good. I'm open to discussing it, and I can be swayed by solid reasoning.

Hold the line.

[QicklyCze]

Yesterday I briefly recounted the end of the game to my friend who does not know the Mass Effect series. During our talk, we concluded that the RGB option is not basically bad, just not sufficiently explained. Moreover, even he noticed quite a large number of unanswered questions. He is now curious to the outcome of our efforts, as we do, so hold the line!

[Shunt Mcblunt]

I am sure they could easily cook up something based on Indoctrination Theory that all fans would love to play plus make a little profit for the company. I will like to say this is will not go away like they were hoping and this will equal a strike against the company by consumers unless they come up with something quick. They did try the defection tactic with N& mission weekend. I just want to say to Bioware personally. You made a great game except for the ending. (To many poorly related cut scenes that did not matter or would never of happened.) We like Multiplayer except when Items went missing. You have a good track record but after DA2 mistake you dropped the ball again. Fix this or you are on the end of a 2 strike count.

Work with the gamers to make a future that gamers would love. Then Bioware will reach the God Status it wants.

[IchikoSakura]

Quote: shygravel wrote...

DoctorCrowtgamer wrote...

Okay thanks. Glad to see someone saw my idea. Please when you hear something could you Pm me with the details when they figure them out on the FB page?

People who i talked to here please hold off and go with the face book date so they we send the most at once and remember to write the words "We will hold" on the badges so that Bioware will get a message and not be able to resell them. Thanks for staying with us people.
Hold the line for as long as it takes people.




If you were the first to start up on this idea, then kudos for you! I only saw someone mention it in a closing line ("Bioware will be getting my N7 Patch in the mail soon") and just immediately thought of how much brilliant potential that has as a grassroots form of civil protest.

I'll definitely keep you updated if I hear anything else. In the meantime I see no harm is people starting off if they want to get a jump start. Like atghunter just posted: A river is as good as an ocean when it comes right down to it. And we can keep working on cooperating with other outlets - like the RetakeME3 FB group and such - to pass the idea on and get as many people as possible on board.

Oh and for those without a N7 Patch to send, someone put this up a few pages back as an alternative to print and send:
images.darkhorse.com/covers/300/20/20732.jpg

The mailing address as put up by Agememnon earlier:
Mailing Address:

BioWare Edmonton

200-4445 Calgary Trail NW

Edmonton AB

Canada T6H 5R7

EDIT: Just to keep stressing it - though it's been said over and over and most seem to be on board - please, please keep any accompanying letters polite, civil and in the spirit of progress. Don't target individuals. Don't hate. The key to this kind of thing is largely letting a simple gesture speak volumes on its own.  Quote ends.

German Fleet reporting in. Thought that needs a bump. I'm so grateful to you guys that this wasn't forgotten during my night and your day. I've spread the word on the German Retake FB-page.

Holding the line, strong as ever.

@agthunter: What a delightful pleasure it is to read from you every day.

Modifié par IchikoSakura, 20 mars 2012 - 09:25 .

[maki0129]

Lochias WH wrote...

maki0129 wrote...

It's unlikely that the endings that are already there will disappear regardless of how the movement progresses from now on. That's not pessimism, that's just realism. For some people, the endings are already alright and they don't have to change anything. That's fine for me if they want to respect those fans.

My point is, why shouldn't we as a movement, respect them as well?

We may not agree with their opinion, but I think we can at least agree that they are entitled to it.

So anyone comes into the forum, saying "we loved the ending" we can say, we really respect that, we don't want what you think is a great ending taken away from you. We just wish there was an ending that actually satisfied US.

Simply put, I don't respect any claims that the ending is good because they don't hold up to scrutiny. In order to claim that the ending is good, you must either, a) accept plot devices which have been universally reviled for literally thousands of years, or, reject any semblance of logic.

People love to use their opinions as unassailable walls, but the truth is our opinions are generally formed about factual events. It is demonstrable that ME3's ending relies upon a deus ex machina who proceeds to spew information not thematically consistent with the rest of the franchise. In order to maintain that such an ending is good, you must accept these elements as good writing. Wherupon you will lose all credibility, as basically all of human literary history is stacked against you.

Hold the line.

No one's accepting that these endings are good by respecting the opinions of those who think are good.

We're just accepting their rights as consumers to be completely satisified with a defective product. We're asserting that everyone has a right to their opinion about the ending, even if that opinion should be in our eyes, stupid.

We will at least respect it.

Which makes us bigger people than they've been all along.

[Emberwake]

 Here's a great article (thats been linked before) that makes a solid case for why the ending is genuinely bad.

Hold the line.

[SkaldFish]

Lochias WH wrote...

maki0129 wrote...

It's unlikely that the endings that are already there will disappear regardless of how the movement progresses from now on. That's not pessimism, that's just realism. For some people, the endings are already alright and they don't have to change anything. That's fine for me if they want to respect those fans.

My point is, why shouldn't we as a movement, respect them as well?

We may not agree with their opinion, but I think we can at least agree that they are entitled to it.

So anyone comes into the forum, saying "we loved the ending" we can say, we really respect that, we don't want what you think is a great ending taken away from you. We just wish there was an ending that actually satisfied US.

Simply put, I don't respect any claims that the ending is good because they don't hold up to scrutiny. In order to claim that the ending is good, you must either, a) accept plot devices which have been universally reviled for literally thousands of years, or, reject any semblance of logic.

People love to use their opinions as unassailable walls, but the truth is our opinions are generally formed about factual events. It is demonstrable that ME3's ending relies upon a deus ex machina who proceeds to spew information not thematically consistent with the rest of the franchise. In order to maintain that such an ending is good, you must accept these elements as good writing. Wherupon you will lose all credibility, as basically all of human literary history is stacked against you.

Hold the line.

Well, there's a difference between acknowledging a player's right to like the current endings and an assessment that they're good. Some people really like paintings of Elvis on black velvet, but that doesn't mean they're good paintings.
Whether the current endings are good is something that can be objectively evaluated, and that's where the whole notion of giving them a pass worries me. Are we objecting to the poor quality of the ending and the damage it does to the story (and trilogy) as a whole, or are we just asking for a bandage that lets us get through the game satisfactorily as long as we avoid existing options / choose specific new options?

I've been thinking about it after that recent discussion, and for me it's got to be the former. The crux of this whole issue is that the quality of the game suddenly drops off a cliff and degenerates into stupefying nonsense that has no connection whatsoever to anything that came before it. How BioWare fixes it is less important than doing everything we can to ensure that they understand why it is so terrible. They are able to do brilliant work; if they apply the same standards to it (this time) that they applied to the rest of the game, it will be brilliant as well.

I've been in software development long enough to understand that I just don't know enough to presume to tell the team HOW to fix what we've shown them is broken. If I'm designing a business application, and a user tells me "I need a 'Start' button right there," pointing to the main window of the app, I then have a conversation with him/her to find out why s/he thinks that specific button is needed. It's likely that's just the user's concept of how to get some important functionality or interaction pattern that is missing. In the end, I might not create that Start button, but users will get an implementation of what they needed that fits within the user interaction paradigms and design patterns that are appropriate for the application.

In reality, if BioWare decides to take any action, that's the approximate process the team will go through whether we tell them how we think it should be done or not. That's just how development teams work. So we might as well focus on the input they actually need, which, BTW, pretty much follows the template Jessica provided in the OP of the changes thread.

Modifié par SkaldFish, 20 mars 2012 - 09:35 .

[CoffeeHolic93]

While the ending has by no means ruined the trilogy for me, I can where you guys are coming from.

An ending shouldn't raise questions, it should tie up the loose ends and answer the questions raised throughout the story. At least if it's the final ending.

At the end of Mass Effect 1 a question was raised. "The reapers are out there, how do we stop them?".

This is fine, as it's a sequel hook, and not the end of the story.

Same thing at the end of Mass Effect 2 "The reapers are on their way, we have to find a way to stop them ASAP or we're BONED."

But the ending of Mass Effect 3? This is the final game. The end of Shepards story. It should answer all the questions raised, it should resolve all the plotpoints as we were promised, and hopefully our decisions would matter.

We got none of it. Nil. This is upsetting to say the least, and it's sad to see how ten minutes were able to ruin a story that has been five years in the making. I don't wish for an end like that, Mass Effect deserves so much more. Bioware's fans deserve so much more. Most of them have supported Bioware for years, and they've seen Mass Effect evolve throughout the years, and while there were minor complaints the general consensus was "the game held up". This was true for Mass Effect 3. Throughout most of the game, I was filled with glee.

Then there's the ending. Oh boy. Suddenly I realized why people were compaining about it (Initially, I thought BSN was being BSN, and people were raising a storm for the sake of it), and it pulled me out of the experience.

It's sad to see everything end on such a sour note. I don't want everything to end on such a sour note. We worked our asses off to beat the reapers, so a gratifying ending isn't too much to ask for, is it? 

I know Bioware has good writers on board. Give them something to do! 


... Hold the line, I guess? 

Modifié par Mi-Chan, 20 mars 2012 - 09:42 .

[lastpatriot]

Sadly enough, I just finished reading through the OP and was amazed at the level of detailed analysis that was put into the development of this thread. The comments and suggestions made by atghunter are right on point!

After watching the movement continue to grow at an astounding rate in the last 24 hours, I'm left to wonder just how the debate will end. My more "half full" side tells me to have faith that BioWare will provide a solution that we will all be happy about yet the "half empty" side remains skeptical. Only time will tell I suppose.

[Icycle1933]

IchikoSakura wrote...

Quote: shygravel wrote...

DoctorCrowtgamer wrote...

Okay thanks. Glad to see someone saw my idea. Please when you hear something could you Pm me with the details when they figure them out on the FB page?

People who i talked to here please hold off and go with the face book date so they we send the most at once and remember to write the words "We will hold" on the badges so that Bioware will get a message and not be able to resell them. Thanks for staying with us people.
Hold the line for as long as it takes people.




If you were the first to start up on this idea, then kudos for you! I only saw someone mention it in a closing line ("Bioware will be getting my N7 Patch in the mail soon") and just immediately thought of how much brilliant potential that has as a grassroots form of civil protest.

I'll definitely keep you updated if I hear anything else. In the meantime I see no harm is people starting off if they want to get a jump start. Like atghunter just posted: A river is as good as an ocean when it comes right down to it. And we can keep working on cooperating with other outlets - like the RetakeME3 FB group and such - to pass the idea on and get as many people as possible on board.

Oh and for those without a N7 Patch to send, someone put this up a few pages back as an alternative to print and send:
images.darkhorse.com/covers/300/20/20732.jpg

The mailing address as put up by Agememnon earlier:
Mailing Address:

BioWare Edmonton

200-4445 Calgary Trail NW

Edmonton AB

Canada T6H 5R7

EDIT: Just to keep stressing it - though it's been said over and over and most seem to be on board - please, please keep any accompanying letters polite, civil and in the spirit of progress. Don't target individuals. Don't hate. The key to this kind of thing is largely letting a simple gesture speak volumes on its own.  Quote ends.

German Fleet reporting in. Thought that needs a bump. I'm so grateful to you guys that this wasn't forgotten during my night and your day. I've spread the word on the German Retake FB-page.

Holding the line, strong as ever.

@agthunter: What a delightful pleasure it is to read from you every day.

Has anyone else sent them a letter with the N7 patch or printed patch?  I know there was a email/physical letter campaign last Saturday, but didn't hear about it until it was too late.  (Ended up emailing.)

[count_4]

QicklyCze wrote...
During our talk, we concluded that the RGB option is not basically bad, just not sufficiently explained.

Except for the space magic that instantly turned every organic being into a synthetic/organic hybrid. Against their will I might add.

[Lil One]

Throughout the games, BioWare plucks our heart strings, creation joy, sadness, triumph, giving us highs and lows. We embrace it, allow it, we sing the song.

Then is all ends in a sour, yellow note, taking control away from us.

[IchikoSakura]

[quote]Icycle1933 wrote...

<snip quote>

I'll definitely keep you updated if I hear anything else. In the meantime I see no harm is people starting off if they want to get a jump start. Like atghunter just posted: A river is as good as an ocean when it comes right down to it. And we can keep working on cooperating with other outlets - like the RetakeME3 FB group and such - to pass the idea on and get as many people as possible on board.

Oh and for those without a N7 Patch to send, someone put this up a few pages back as an alternative to print and send:
images.darkhorse.com/covers/300/20/20732.jpg

The mailing address as put up by Agememnon earlier:
Mailing Address:

BioWare Edmonton

200-4445 Calgary Trail NW

Edmonton AB

Canada T6H 5R7

EDIT: Just to keep stressing it - though it's been said over and over and most seem to be on board - please, please keep any accompanying letters polite, civil and in the spirit of progress. Don't target individuals. Don't hate. The key to this kind of thing is largely letting a simple gesture speak volumes on its own.  Quote ends.

German Fleet reporting in. Thought that needs a bump. I'm so grateful to you guys that this wasn't forgotten during my night and your day. I've spread the word on the German Retake FB-page.

Holding the line, strong as ever.

@agthunter: What a delightful pleasure it is to read from you every day. [/quote]

Has anyone else sent them a letter with the N7 patch or printed patch?  I know there was a email/physical letter campaign last Saturday, but didn't hear about it until it was too late.  (Ended up emailing.)

[/quote]

This idea sprung up on Sunday or yesterday, so no, those who sent their letters already haden't included the patch. This is going to be a new letter campaign.

[Icycle1933]

Thanks for the clarification IchikoSakura. Do you (or anyone else) know if the letters are going to all be sent at one time or anytime someone can send them?

[CrazyRah]

I'm still so very impressed by the detailed and constructive posts that keep coming into this thread. It's a pleasure to read them all

Hold the Line

[lil_lene]

Long time lurker. But I feel that I need to take a stand here also. Bioware needs stop with the PR rubbish and just tell us what is happening. I think that is what I find the most disturbing. The ending is terrible no doubt about that. But what is worse is that they aren't telling us anything one way or the other.. On another note the rest of the game before the magic elevator is a fantastic emotional rollercoaster..

[IchikoSakura]

Icycle1933 wrote...

Thanks for the clarification IchikoSakura. Do you (or anyone else) know if the letters are going to all be sent at one time or anytime someone can send them?

I guess, we're trying to coordinate them, but agthunter pointed out that a steady stream of letters is as effective as a tidal wave of letters, so you are free to do so whenever you want to. :happy:

[Psythorn]

Looking at what's happening now I can't see how keeping the silence or playing delay tactis can be of any good to EA/Bioware.

It already starts to hurt them:
- Refunds offered by Amazon
- Bad User Ratings everywhere - Amazon down to 2.5 of 5 stars currently in germany
- Price Drops

Shouldn't this motivate them to start moving ?
If they do not pick up some pace soon the damage will be not fully reversible in my opinion.

Modifié par Psythorn, 20 mars 2012 - 10:15 .

[QicklyCze]

count_4 wrote...

QicklyCze wrote...
During our talk, we concluded that the RGB option is not basically bad, just not sufficiently explained.

Except for the space magic that instantly turned every organic being into a synthetic/organic hybrid. Against their will I might add.

The space magic is fine for me as long as I know exactly what happened during this merge. Unfortunately I do not know. It will overwrite minds of all people in galaxy, or just add some implants? But this topic is not for speculations, so I'll let it be and just wait for answers from BioWare.

[Jetfire99]

Also a long time lurker here, I just wanted to say thank you you people here. Who take the time to offer advice and take a look at the various Bio-ware posts. It's been quite useful and informative. For someone whose not always so good with words? This has been a very useful resource to help better express my self to others about the situation. Finally above all?

Hold the line.

[musicaleCA]

[quote]IchikoSakura wrote...

[quote]Icycle1933 wrote...

<snip quote>

I'll definitely keep you updated if I hear anything else. In the meantime I see no harm is people starting off if they want to get a jump start. Like atghunter just posted: A river is as good as an ocean when it comes right down to it. And we can keep working on cooperating with other outlets - like the RetakeME3 FB group and such - to pass the idea on and get as many people as possible on board.

Oh and for those without a N7 Patch to send, someone put this up a few pages back as an alternative to print and send:
images.darkhorse.com/covers/300/20/20732.jpg

The mailing address as put up by Agememnon earlier:
Mailing Address:

BioWare Edmonton

200-4445 Calgary Trail NW

Edmonton AB

Canada T6H 5R7

EDIT: Just to keep stressing it - though it's been said over and over and most seem to be on board - please, please keep any accompanying letters polite, civil and in the spirit of progress. Don't target individuals. Don't hate. The key to this kind of thing is largely letting a simple gesture speak volumes on its own.  Quote ends.

German Fleet reporting in. Thought that needs a bump. I'm so grateful to you guys that this wasn't forgotten during my night and your day. I've spread the word on the German Retake FB-page.

Holding the line, strong as ever.

@agthunter: What a delightful pleasure it is to read from you every day. [/quote]

Has anyone else sent them a letter with the N7 patch or printed patch?  I know there was a email/physical letter campaign last Saturday, but didn't hear about it until it was too late.  (Ended up emailing.)

[/quote]

This idea sprung up on Sunday or yesterday, so no, those who sent their letters already haden't included the patch. This is going to be a new letter campaign.

[/quote]

Great idea. Lets do this! 

[vigna]

atghunter wrote...

Greetings All!

Been home for a bit, but I was wading through 38 pages of really fun reads! (takes a while for my C-64 to page refresh)

No PR below and I'm not a philosopher, but just an old gamer's view of something:

What is happening here is genuinely incredible!  To watch the speed, passion and diversity of things being discussed is something I hope everyone here takes an occasional moment to just sit back and watch from time to time.  The way new people are welcomed, veterans help people get caught up to speed, people darting off to write letters, contact others, etc. is a marvel and a dynamic Bioware/EA could have never planned for. 

Does it get testy at times?  Sure.  I continue to implore everyone to remain civil.  If an offense is taken, simply apologize.  I've said it before (and others have said it better), no matter what side of this you are on, you likely have more in common with each other than not.

Spend a day or two here and you'll see that you are getting to know people.  People from places you've never seen and faces you may never recognize in person, but know them regardless.  We have peacemakers, deep thinkers, firebrands, and even a resident devil's advocate.  And they all belong here!  Why?  Because every one of you is a consumer, a customer, and a voice.

I've watched an older gamer in the U.S. conversing with a younger players in Holland like they are neighbors,  people from Germany giving encouragement to people feeling down Canada, and more great interactions than the best fiction writers could ever dream in a lifetime.  It’s humbling and I just wanted to thank each of you for making an old gamer proud as heck to be here. /salute

We'll hit rough patches.  But if you mis-speak or let yourself go to far, you are no weaker for apologizing.  Do I want the game endings fixed?  Darn right I do.  Will I keep holding the line?  Absolutely, right up to the end when Bioware/EA chooses how they want to end this fiasco.  But no matter how this finishes, you've done so very well, each of you. 

More individual stuff in a moment, but this just needs to be said by itself.

Stay strong, stay passionate, stay civil and use your voice no matter what side you take!  
  

Quoted for sage advice.

[DoctorCrowtgamer]

[quote]IchikoSakura wrote...

[quote]Icycle1933 wrote...

<snip quote>

I'll definitely keep you updated if I hear anything else. In the meantime I see no harm is people starting off if they want to get a jump start. Like atghunter just posted: A river is as good as an ocean when it comes right down to it. And we can keep working on cooperating with other outlets - like the RetakeME3 FB group and such - to pass the idea on and get as many people as possible on board.

Oh and for those without a N7 Patch to send, someone put this up a few pages back as an alternative to print and send:
images.darkhorse.com/covers/300/20/20732.jpg

The mailing address as put up by Agememnon earlier:
Mailing Address:

BioWare Edmonton

200-4445 Calgary Trail NW

Edmonton AB

Canada T6H 5R7

EDIT: Just to keep stressing it - though it's been said over and over and most seem to be on board - please, please keep any accompanying letters polite, civil and in the spirit of progress. Don't target individuals. Don't hate. The key to this kind of thing is largely letting a simple gesture speak volumes on its own.  Quote ends.

German Fleet reporting in. Thought that needs a bump. I'm so grateful to you guys that this wasn't forgotten during my night and your day. I've spread the word on the German Retake FB-page.

Holding the line, strong as ever.

@agthunter: What a delightful pleasure it is to read from you every day. [/quote]

Has anyone else sent them a letter with the N7 patch or printed patch?  I know there was a email/physical letter campaign last Saturday, but didn't hear about it until it was too late.  (Ended up emailing.)

[/quote]

This idea sprung up on Sunday or yesterday, so no, those who sent their letters already haden't included the patch. This is going to be a new letter campaign.

[/quote]

Yeah i just posted the thread last night.  I am going to wait a day or two to see if the people running the facebook page take this up before doing anything.

Hold the line for as long as it takes people.