9972 réponses à ce sujet

[Harbing3r]

punkenjunki3 wrote...

BBC article up on the game and the movement:

http://www.bbc.co.uk...nology-17444719

Id say its pretty neutral just saying whats going on as opposed to putting any kind of opinion on it

Good-ish article, though I don't think the ending is bleak - it's baffling, nonsensical, nonplussing... I think 'bleak' would be an improvement

[punkenjunki3]

Fallenfromthesky wrote...

We are on the BBC hell yeah. This is exactly the kind on even responce that can be a massive help in communicating our views to the mainsteam non-gamers. I will not be suprised if this gets a mention on the televised news even if its in a tiny way

Hold the Line

Hell yeah......not like Im watching the news now or anything to see if it comes up probably wishful thinking though 

[Baldurs Gate]

 Some more interesting links:

Reviews:

Angry Joe's top 10 reasons to hate the ME3 ending

ME3 endings comparison

Jeremy Jahns ending review
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4H_A7SeawU4


Inspirational stuff:

The Commander Shepard song!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HiRDJLcYua0
The Hold the Line video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JspE9ctseIU
Commander Shepard is still a jerk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-PjTuSQNLI4


Satire and Parody:

ME3 Recontextualised
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YWIimukNeAE
Mass Deffect 7 Shepard's Reaction
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hzYLTbQQEZQ&feature=related
The Animal House ending
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L4iNJXrHA_I
Mass Deffect Monster Reaper
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fyoev5RzO_w

Twitter:

HarbytheReaper
https://twitter.com/#!/HarbyTheReaper


Courtesy of Iucounou  

---------

Keep it civil and Hold the Line!

[mi_dad]

Article posted in the tech section of Google news.

http://www.bbc.co.uk...nology-17444719

Also if I type mass effect 3 into Google on a public computer, The fourth suggestion is about the endings

Hold The Line.

[Nyctyris]

punkenjunki3 wrote...

BBC article up on the game and the movement:

http://www.bbc.co.uk...nology-17444719

Id say its pretty neutral just saying whats going on as opposed to putting any kind of opinion on it

The BBC is generally pretty good about being neutral - it has to do where they take their funding from (TV tax as opposed to any political parties or corporate organisations).

They don't always succeed but they do try!

[punkenjunki3]

Harbing3r wrote...


Good-ish article, though I don't think the ending is bleak - it's baffling, nonsensical, nonplussing... I think 'bleak' would be an improvement

I agree, someone else just said that the misconception is that the ending is too sad, but its not about that its just about wanting an ending and one that makes sense.

[Xivai]

Yes! We got into the BBC! Another great success for us.

[musicaleCA]

punkenjunki3 wrote...

Harbing3r wrote...


Good-ish article, though I don't think the ending is bleak - it's baffling, nonsensical, nonplussing... I think 'bleak' would be an improvement

I agree, someone else just said that the misconception is that the ending is too sad, but its not about that its just about wanting an ending and one that makes sense.

For those who are concerned about this misstep by the BBC, write to them. Unlike IGN and other game review outlets, the BBC is a reputable journalism organization, and they do strive for accuracy. If many people write to them correcting them on this point, they will do more research, and likely update the article.

This is especially true for any UK members here.

Here is a link to the BBC's website style, accuracy, and grammar feedback form.

Modifié par musicaleCA, 20 mars 2012 - 01:45 .

[vigna]

I find it difficult to express how this debacle and movement has affected me in the past week and a half. I believe there is probably some psychological term relating to attachment in regards to my state of mind. Since Friday march, 9 I have not been able to behave "normally" in my real life. While it hasn't affected my work performance It has changed my home life habits. I have only been able to watch 2 half hour TV shows....other longer shows I can't pay attention to long enough to watch fully...so I rewind until I lose my attention again; and have to turn it off.

I listen to a lot of online radio. I'll listen and then realize I haven't been paying attention, and have to rewind in a similar fashion. I tried playing Skyrim....and ...no. I tried replaying ME3 again, and only got to the Citadel, and turned it off.

I am at the height of dis-functionality. I am more rational and functional when breaking up with a girlfriend I love than I am right now. I think I need to burn my Bioware games in some sort of weird ritual in order to gain some closure and perspective. I'm not an emotionally unstable person...ever. I never linger on things, and generally can move on from anything rather quickly.

It's a weird place to find myself in....

Modifié par vigna, 20 mars 2012 - 01:46 .

[IchikoSakura]

musicaleCA wrote...

punkenjunki3 wrote...

Harbing3r wrote...


Good-ish article, though I don't think the ending is bleak - it's baffling, nonsensical, nonplussing... I think 'bleak' would be an improvement

I agree, someone else just said that the misconception is that the ending is too sad, but its not about that its just about wanting an ending and one that makes sense.

For those who are concerned about this misstep by the BBC, write to them. Unlike IGN and other game review outlets, the BBC is a reputable journalism organization, and they do strive for accuracy. If many people write to them correcting them on this point, they will do more research, and likely update the article.

This is especially true for any UK members here.

Good point, Musicale. Should I write too? I'm German not from the UK, so I'm not sure.

[Hicks233]

It'll take some time before it's understood that while some will be unhappy that there is no happy ending it's the issue that a product doesn't perform as advertised that underlines it.

[musicaleCA]

IchikoSakura wrote...

musicaleCA wrote...

punkenjunki3 wrote...

Harbing3r wrote...


Good-ish article, though I don't think the ending is bleak - it's baffling, nonsensical, nonplussing... I think 'bleak' would be an improvement

I agree, someone else just said that the misconception is that the ending is too sad, but its not about that its just about wanting an ending and one that makes sense.

For those who are concerned about this misstep by the BBC, write to them. Unlike IGN and other game review outlets, the BBC is a reputable journalism organization, and they do strive for accuracy. If many people write to them correcting them on this point, they will do more research, and likely update the article.

This is especially true for any UK members here.

Good point, Musicale. Should I write too? I'm German not from the UK, so I'm not sure.

Go ahead! I just did and I'm in Canada. Check my post again for a link to the (English) feedback page.

[IchikoSakura]

<snip quotes>

For those who are concerned about this misstep by the BBC, write to them. Unlike IGN and other game review outlets, the BBC is a reputable journalism organization, and they do strive for accuracy. If many people write to them correcting them on this point, they will do more research, and likely update the article.

This is especially true for any UK members here.

[/quote]

Good point, Musicale. Should I write too? I'm German not from the UK, so I'm not sure.

[/quote]

Go ahead! I just did and I'm in Canada. Check my post again for a link to the (English) feedback page.

[/quote]

I did just so.

[iiNOMADii]

@vigna

I feel that way toward all video games, too. When I try to play something I just have an empty feeling that erases all desire to play, then I quickly turn it off.

Stay strong and Hold the Line

[cyrrant]

musicaleCA wrote...

punkenjunki3 wrote...

Harbing3r wrote...


Good-ish article, though I don't think the ending is bleak - it's baffling, nonsensical, nonplussing... I think 'bleak' would be an improvement

I agree, someone else just said that the misconception is that the ending is too sad, but its not about that its just about wanting an ending and one that makes sense.

For those who are concerned about this misstep by the BBC, write to them. Unlike IGN and other game review outlets, the BBC is a reputable journalism organization, and they do strive for accuracy. If many people write to them correcting them on this point, they will do more research, and likely update the article.

This is especially true for any UK members here.

Here is a link to the BBC's website style, accuracy, and grammar feedback form.

As soon as I find myself with a free moment I will definitely write them to explain the inaccuracies just as everyone else is doing.  Thank you for providing us with this link.

Our Choices Should Matter - Hold the Line

[DoctorCrowtgamer]

New threads keep dropping back to page 7  or 8 so if no one minds I am going to post this here because I am proud of it and I want people to see it.

It's the reasons I think a happy ending option is just as valid and logical an ending for the series as the bleak options we were given.

Some people in the press and on the internet have been slaming the
retake mass effect crowd as people who just wanted happy ending as if
there is something about that that is in and of it's self wrong.  I
would like to explain why I think the option of a happy ending is just
as logical and level headed as a bleak ending.

First off Shepard is not a tragic hero.

The
tragic hero awlays does something to set up his own fate and then he
dies either fighting for what he believes in or saving others from what
he set in motion.

Hamlet is a tragic hero because he single
mindlly goes out for revenge while ignoring the costs to the living
people he loves and in the endi he gets it but only buy dieing because
he caused the deaths of so many others.

Darth Vader is a Tragic
hero because he help the Emporer come to and stay in power and in the
end the only way to save luke was to give up his own life.

Londo
from Babylon 5 is a tragic hero because he he turned to the shadows when
he had lost all hope for his people and a lot of people died but when
he was given the choice of having more people die or getting a keeper
put on him(an action he knew would take away his free will,lose him his
friends,and in the end lead to his death)he choose to have the keep put
on him instead of letting more people die.

Mordon is a Tragic hero because he chooses to die to undo action he choose years ago.

For
Shepard to be a tragic hero he would have had to do something to help
bring about the mess the galaxy was in in the first place and then
choose to give his own life saving other.  If Bioware always wanted
Shepard to be a tragic hero in the last two games they should have done
one of two things.

1)they could have had Shepard some how by
mistake be the one who opened the door to the Reapers and let them
return to the Galaxy.

or

2)Have Shepard be willingly
brought back by Curberus and thus putting them into the postion of being
able to cause trouble in ME3.

Neither of this things happened. 
The Reapers were coming back no matter what Shepard did and Curberus
brought him back against his will.  he didn't choose anything that
happened so he can't be a tragic hero because he never had controll over
he events and there was never a moment where he made a tragic choice.


Now we move onto another big reason.

Forshadowing.

Chekhov is said to have said once if a gun is shown on the table in the first act it must be fired by the first act.

Now
the rules of drama change just bit in an interactive medium but the
roles of good drama still apply,so if you don't mind i will reword it
for video games.

If a type of ending is set up or forshadowed in a video game there must be a way for the play to reach that end. 

Video
games are the first medium where writers can give people multiple
endings with out cheapening them so I am not surprised so many writters
are having trouble with this but the fact remains in good drama you
don't forshadow something that never has a chance of happening.

Mass
Effect is interesting in this requard in that in the three games the
player was given control over what he  forshadowed.  You could choose to
have a Shepard who was losing hope and pushing people away or you could
shoose to have a Shepard who had hope and was building galaxy that
would be better once the Reapers were gone.

If you chose the
hopefull options then the bleak ending is out of place and jars with the
rest of the story up to that point and does not feel like an extension
of it or it's message.  If you choose to help the Krogan,make peace
between the Quarenians and the Geth,prepose to Laria the story is being
set up for a hopeful end where after all the death the galaxy will be
left intact and able to rebuild.  Get people to work together for just
one battle and then cutting them off from each other is out of place in
this type of story.  If you choose hopeful options like tell your ship's
doctor to save the drinks until victory the story is forshadowing a
happy ending where there is a victory. The story's meessage for almost
three games with the paragon options is that is people pull together and
put aside the old problems they can over come anything and build a
better world even after there has been so much death. By taking away
even an option where the hero can live and the Mass realies remain
intact so that all the race can continue to work together the message of
the end does not match that of the rest of the story and in fact makes
the long story kind of pointless since there are two competing ideas at
it's heart and the player is not even given the option of choosing whcih
to follow through on.

This is why I think having the option of a happy ending is just as logical and adult a conclusion as a bleak ending.

Anyone else agree?

Hold the line for as long as it takes people.

[Nightfire78]

Baldurs Gate wrote...

 Some more interesting links:

Reviews:

Angry Joe's top 10 reasons to hate the ME3 ending

ME3 endings comparison

Jeremy Jahns ending review
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4H_A7SeawU4


Inspirational stuff:

The Commander Shepard song!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HiRDJLcYua0
The Hold the Line video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JspE9ctseIU
Commander Shepard is still a jerk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-PjTuSQNLI4


Satire and Parody:

ME3 Recontextualised
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YWIimukNeAE
Mass Deffect 7 Shepard's Reaction
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hzYLTbQQEZQ&feature=related
The Animal House ending
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L4iNJXrHA_I
Mass Deffect Monster Reaper
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fyoev5RzO_w

Twitter:

HarbytheReaper
https://twitter.com/#!/HarbyTheReaper


Courtesy of Iucounou  

---------

Keep it civil and Hold the Line!

Another review type thing:
www.youtube.com/watch

Another parody:
www.youtube.com/watch

and some interesting articles for reading:
docs.google.com/document/d/1QT4IUepvrU1pfv_B95oQj0H84DlCTUmzQ_uQh1voTUs/preview
www.gamefront.com/mass-effect-3-ending-hatred-5-reasons-the-fans-are-right/
www.themetagames.com/2012/03/why-you-enjoy-art-and-one-problem-with.html

Hold the line!

[BDelacroix]

Lets not turn this into a brits are better than yanks fight.

To answer Doctor Crowtgamer, I would tend to agree with your premise.  I think Angry Joe said it too,  why not allow for a happy ending?  What's wrong with that anyway?

Too many people think dark is good.

Modifié par BDelacroix, 20 mars 2012 - 02:13 .

[aj2070]

I have read the opening, edited and updated post. Don't really have time to read the 260+ pages of updates. Great insight to the PR process. I don't have anything else to add but as I have said elsewhere, I am not looking for a happy ending, just a logical ending; one someone involved with does not have to sell a $2.99 iPad app to justify.

The thing I find interesting in this whole PR affair is how Bioware is responding.  The last "this product does not match your own fiction" fight, the Mass Effect: Deception did not appear to take nearly as long for Bioware and Del Ray (the publisher) to acknowledge missteps.  Granted, we are still waiting for a resolution but they acknowledged the missteps.  Admittedly with money made on pre-sold versions of Mass Effect 3, EA has less incentive.  They have our money.  The only thing we can do is unilatterally decide not to give them any more.  With Mass Effect: Deception, the pre-release previews killed it.  With Mass Effect 3, if EA/Bioware were as "evil" as they have been portrayed, they could really say "you already gave us your money so screw you - suckers".  

Modifié par aj2070, 20 mars 2012 - 02:44 .

[Damate]

punkenjunki3 wrote...

Harbing3r wrote...


Good-ish article, though I don't think the ending is bleak - it's baffling, nonsensical, nonplussing... I think 'bleak' would be an improvement

I agree, someone else just said that the misconception is that the ending is too sad, but its not about that its just about wanting an ending and one that makes sense.

^Agree'd. My brother posted in one of the threads here and I think he made a good anaology when it comes to the issue not being about sadness/bleakness: He was expecting 'Saving Private Ryan' (Hanks' character bleeding our and dying but living just long enough to see the mission succeed - bleak and bittersweet. well done.) and he got --- Space Jesus/Saviour. Full of weird mythos/'magic' all suddenly piled on in the end and amounting to something that made little sense.

Yes, Shepard has always defied the odds in the ME games, but they've done so without the trappings of magic wand waving and they've done so having to make hard choices and sacrifices.... until the end of ME3 where all of a sudden we meet the shell of the Wizard of Oz and contrived outcomes, some of which (synergy) fly in the very face of what seemed to have been a major message of the whole series (unity by embracing diversity; strength in working together despite - and powered by - the unique qualities we bring to the table).

More to the point regarding articles and misconceptions: Send comments in when you see articles that get things wrong. Well worded, polite - point out where the misconception lies.  They may change articles to reflect corrections, they may not, but we're still trying to get the truth out there.

Furthermore: If this was a movie or a book or a play, I'd be far less crushed by the endings. Why? Because those mediums aren't interactive. I don't go to a movie expecting to be able to make the choices for the protagonist. I don't read books expecting to choose what characters make it and which don't. I accept what the author/director/etc presents before me because I knew I was only along for the ride the whole time -- I may not agree, I may not like it, but I knew what I was getting into.
Mass Effect is interactive entertainment. It is artful - it is often heartbreakingly artful - but it was never presented as a static show of the developers vision. All along we were told it was story that would fluidly change from player to player based on their choices. To have any sense that those choices mattered ripped away at the end leaves me feeling manipulated and lied to; it makes all the time I poured in feel retroactively cheapened. Part of the very art of Mass Effect was the wonderful personalization/customization Bioware wove and enabled and in the end the 'art' shifts context. For some of us it's just muddled and lost.

Lastly: I know I, for one - and I'm sure most, if not all of us here - wouldn't care to invest the energy to worry/protest about the last 5-10min of ME3 if it wasn't because I so passionately love and stand behind the first two games and 95% of the third. It's because I care, because I know just what amazing things this IP has and is capable of that I'm here.

.....and that all got fairly convoluted, apologies.
Holding the line -- just need to dilute the blood out of my caffiene stream some more before doing so coherently.

[cyrrant]

DoctorCrowtgamer wrote...

-snip-

Hold the line for as long as it takes people.

It's a good analysis, the crux of the issue for me is that there were "wildly different" endings promised, and would I like one of them to be happy?  Damn straight.  We've come to expect from Bioware that if you take the time and progress through the game in a specific way, that you will find a "happy" ending waiting for you, should you make all the right decisions.

That being said, would I have also been happy with an ending that resulted in Shepard's sacrifice without all the confusing plot holes and star child nonsense?  If it was well written, I think it could have been a poignant moment in gaming, and I would have appreciated the effort.

For me, I just want to see my choices matter in the ending.  I want to have things diverge massively depending on the decisions you made and the war assets you gathered.  Shepard and Mass Effect deserve nothing less.

Our Choices Should Matter - Hold the Line

[LeoSpike]

Good morning everyone.

I got this thought yesterday but couldn't state it properly.

We might want to consider that BioWare was told to do several things on purpose:

1. Not enough EMS in SP to get the "breathe" ending, and

2. Endings written for low or no replayability

Why?

Because, unlike the first 2 games, EA's revenue projections are based on MP, not SP.

Perhaps why SWTOR is a MMO instead of the KOTOR3 many of us were hoping for.

EA does not want us playing SP. The profit margin for that is low. They have to produce DLC to keep SP fresh, and that's lower profit margin than getting folks to buy "packs" in MP.

Solution? Make SP story of limited value to the customer, force them into MP to get enough EMS to get the "best" ending. Maybe they think that once folks play MP they'll get hooked on it and attention span will waver from the SP story.

EA will do what's in their best interest. It's all about profit. BioWare will do what's in their best interest, which is to please their fanbase, but EA holds final power over the content of the product by holding the production budget strings.

So, it appears we are doing the best thing we can, which is basically ignoring MP and continuing a dialogue about the core SP story.

Well done all. Once again, don't let insults, petty comments or bogus articles depress you. The longer we all stay the course, the more desperate EA will get and the more drastic measures they'll take. Their shareholders don't like this sort of thing.

For those of you who feel empathy for BioWare employees and their job security, I'm with you, but also remember what BioWare means to you. These folks are fantastic at what they do and still are. If they lose their jobs due to EA cutting studio staff, the name BioWare on any resume means your quality is known and you won't be out of work long.

Have a great day...lots to do...talk later?

Modifié par LeoSpike, 20 mars 2012 - 02:19 .

[punkenjunki3]

[quote]shygravel wrote...

*snip*
[/quote]

Holding the line -- just need to dilute the blood out of my caffiene stream some more before doing so coherently.



[/quote]

I agree with your whole post, entirely, i also reflected this in my comments to the article writer at crave online, though he said a "better ending" as opposed to a happy one (something i judged on incorrectly but apologised). He still did not think that bioware changing it was a good idea because its not commonly done else where.

THe problem is everyones using very well established mediums as a benchmark for what games should be and how they are presented and handled. The issue is they arent a perfect fir for it due to the level of interactivity required, which promotes the feeling of immersion and emotional investment in the story and characters, and because of this analogies made about tv and film endings cannot be used for game endings. Unfortunatley thats not the commonly held perception.

But I see by this statement you are a person after my own heart when it comes to the caffiene ....hmm now i could use a cup....

[DoctorCrowtgamer]

cyrrant wrote...

DoctorCrowtgamer wrote...

-snip-

Hold the line for as long as it takes people.

It's a good analysis, the crux of the issue for me is that there were "wildly different" endings promised, and would I like one of them to be happy?  Damn straight.  We've come to expect from Bioware that if you take the time and progress through the game in a specific way, that you will find a "happy" ending waiting for you, should you make all the right decisions.

That being said, would I have also been happy with an ending that resulted in Shepard's sacrifice without all the confusing plot holes and star child nonsense?  If it was well written, I think it could have been a poignant moment in gaming, and I would have appreciated the effort.

For me, I just want to see my choices matter in the ending.  I want to have things diverge massively depending on the decisions you made and the war assets you gathered.  Shepard and Mass Effect deserve nothing less.

Our Choices Should Matter - Hold the Line

Thanks.

As I keep saying it should be an option and I beleive the OPTION for a happy ending is just as dramticly valid as the option for a bleak on if your choices in the games set it up.  It blow my mind that in a series that is know for have more then one ending so many people think when ask for the option of a happy ending we are saying that should be the only ending.

Hold the line for as long as it takes people.

[Nightfire78]

DoctorCrowtgamer wrote...

...

If you chose the
hopefull options then the bleak ending is out of place and jars with the
rest of the story up to that point and does not feel like an extension
of it or it's message.  If you choose to help the Krogan,make peace
between the Quarenians and the Geth,prepose to Laria the story is being
set up for a hopeful end where after all the death the galaxy will be
left intact and able to rebuild.  Get people to work together for just
one battle and then cutting them off from each other is out of place in
this type of story.  If you choose hopeful options like tell your ship's
doctor to save the drinks until victory the story is forshadowing a
happy ending where there is a victory. The story's meessage for almost
three games with the paragon options is that is people pull together and
put aside the old problems they can over come anything and build a
better world even after there has been so much death. By taking away
even an option where the hero can live and the Mass realies remain
intact so that all the race can continue to work together the message of
the end does not match that of the rest of the story and in fact makes
the long story kind of pointless since there are two competing ideas at
it's heart and the player is not even given the option of choosing whcih
to follow through on.

This is why I think having the option of a happy ending is just as logical and adult a conclusion as a bleak ending.

Anyone else agree?

Hold the line for as long as it takes people.

Agree. (Edited your post down a bit so as not to produce too many huge walls of text)

And it certainly doesn't help that (in addition to there being only one type of ending available no matter how you played the character so that it jars with the foreshadowing, as you said) the supposed "bittersweet" ending now just doesn't make any sense within the rules of the universe that was created and it's implications are only bitter, but it's hard to even feel saddness over the bitter (yes, bitter, there is no bittersweet) end your struggle took because it makes no sense.

Really I don't see the ending being happy or not being the main issue, but I also don't see why people make it sound like wanting a happy/happier ending is somehow bizarre and wrong. It would be, like so amny things in the game, the player's choice; why should anyone be upset over people wanting to increase choice in a franchise that's been all about choice form day one?

Anyhoo, wrote more than I intended. Mainly meant to say you've got a good point

Hold the line!