9972 réponses à ce sujet

[Jamie9]

sabasebatyne wrote...

Hardly an original thought here, but wouldn't getting high profile/celebrity gamers or industry figures involved in the discussion be a good idea? Call me naive, but it seems like that could only improve our odds by increasing awareness and support.

I say yes, but there was a discussion a while back suggesting we leave actual voice actors of the game etc. out of it, as it would leave them in an uncomfortable position. Getting famous youtubers etc. to cover it could only be a good thing, however.

[AloraKast]

Am still trying to catch up with this thread, while attempting to at least maintain the illusion of being productive, but a thought has been bouncing around my brain.

Has anyone thought about reaching out to TotalBiscuit/Cynical Brit (mailbox@cynicalbrit.com) with respect to the Retake movement? I recently discovered his video blog, The Mailbox, and really like it, think he makes a great deal of sense and generally knows what he is talking about. He's even addressed the Day 1 DLC, specifically discussing ME3 in his blog of March 9th, as well as discussing the "entitled gamer" label (can't recall whether it was the blog from March 13th or 15th, apologies).

I am not sure whether he would cover it, considering that he doesn't take requests, but am curious whether anyone knows if this route has already been attempted.

Alas, must slink off back to work now.

[cyrrant]

sabasebatyne wrote...

Hardly an original thought here, but wouldn't getting high profile/celebrity gamers or industry figures involved in the discussion be a good idea? Call me naive, but it seems like that could only improve our odds by increasing awareness and support.

At issue here is that there has been a definitive move in the past couple years for developers to have their games seen as "art", which causes a misconception that anything produced as "art" is untouchable and immune to criticism.  Finding a developer willing to go against the grain on this one and refute the claim that art cannot be subject to the market forces that come with its being a consumer good.  In fact, there was a meeting at the Smithsonian the other day about games as art and some developers there said this whole debacle made them "very sad" because we should all just accept the vision Bioware has.

Plus, competing developers might not be the most trustworthy sources to outside observers, given that they may seem like they have a vested interest in Bioware's failure.

However, an eloquent voice from inside the industry might do something to quiet the naysayers in the gaming press.  This idea deserves more evaluation.  Also, how would you find a developer?  Can't just pick one up on a street corner.

Our Choices Should Matter - Hold the Line

[Bourne Endeavor]

OhManTFE wrote...

Will Bioware even make a decision to not change the endings? I mean vocalise it.

Let's say Bioware has decided to not change the endings, would they ever tell the fans that? Or would they just keep quiet? I think if they do decide to not change the endings - they sure as hell aren't going to tell us. They know that stating that isn't going to end well for them, right?

Please I'm looking for a PR knowledgeable answer.

While they will never make a statement specifically on the subject, indirect methods can be interpreted as such and we act accordingly. For instance, if they announce new DLC in the form of Retake Omega that has nothing to do with the endings. This is essentially BioWare washing their hands of the movement. Our response must then be to boycott the DLC. If it sold well, we lose all steam as they can now justify ignoring us, but if sales were lackluster or god forbid horrible, our voice would be louder than ever before. We would be striking the one thing that hurts most of all, their profit margin.

This why no matter what BioWare says, the only DLC we purchase is ending DLC. Show them we will Hold the Line until the very end.

[Bachuck]

Today I'll be working on formatting and adding content to the original post on the front page (OP), so if you have links to posts, videos, articles, etc., that you feel would make a good addition, kindly send me a PM with a link to said content. Don't post it in here for me to grab because the thread moves too fast. 

Thank you for your help.
BaChuck

[wheelierdan]

http://social.biowar.../index/10319355

just wanted to post this here, we have our grievances but we shouldn't lose sight of the positive things, they need to hear that too.

[Fulgrim88]

AloraKast wrote...

Am still trying to catch up with this
thread, while attempting to at least maintain the illusion of being
productive, but a thought has been bouncing around my brain.

Has anyone thought about reaching out to TotalBiscuit/Cynical Brit (mailbox@cynicalbrit.com) with respect to the Retake movement? I recently discovered his video blog, The Mailbox,
and really like it, think he makes a great deal of sense and generally
knows what he is talking about. He's even addressed the Day 1 DLC,
specifically discussing ME3 in his blog of March 9th, as well as discussing the "entitled gamer" label (can't recall whether it was the blog from March 13th or 15th, apologies).

I
am not sure whether he would cover it, considering that he doesn't take
requests, but am curious whether anyone knows if this route has already
been attempted.

Alas, must slink off back to work now. ../../../images/forum/emoticons/uncertain.png

I think cynicalbrit did his part.

He has talked in great length about the entitlement issue, and why it's wrong. Consumer rights is the most common denominator here, so that should really be at the core of what we are conveying to the outside. Having him talk about how the story disappoints won't do any good, because frankly, the majority of people outside of the ME3 fanbase doesn't care about that.

Modifié par Fulgrim88, 20 mars 2012 - 04:15 .

[Syrellaris]

There is a part in the game that interests me greatly. Thats after you
completed the final mission. The game reverts back to before the
cerberus base attack. Why? According to the popup, so yoou can free-roam
and do DLC. However Bioware has never done it this way before.

They
always made it so that big DLC stories require you to import your
single player savegame, or start a new character. Why change that in
ME3?

OhManTFE wrote...

Will Bioware even make a decision to not change the endings? I mean vocalise it.

Let's say Bioware has decided to not change the endings, would they ever tell the fans that? Or would they just keep quiet? I think if they do decide to not change the endings - they sure as hell aren't going to tell us. They know that stating that isn't going to end well for them, right?

Please I'm looking for a PR knowledgeable answer.

They have as much right as anyone else to tell or not to tell if they plan to change it. Specially with the way people are here, I would not be surprised if they won't say anything. People are very skeptical right now and jump on anything to either insult bioware or even forum moderators (the stanley woo incident earlier in this thread for example).

I think personally the best course of action Bioware can take right now is to change the ending slightly, to fill in the gap why the normndy is fleeing and crash landing  and to include some extra informatin regarding what is going on on earth and the citadel. They do not even have to include all your choices from earlier in the game at all.

Release that for free and then release a large Continuation story DLC towards the final conclusion as paid DLC.

[Kyrick]

vometia wrote...

dreaming_raithe wrote...

They're banking on the stalling giving us time to calm down and "forgive" the ending. It happens a lot with things like this. People raging over on-the-disc DLC, for instance, may still buy future DLC once their anger has subsided. I think EA/Bioware have messed up in this case, as the sustained frustration is a lot stronger than other blow-ups around the 'net that I've seen.

I see what you're getting at.  I agree that they've misjudged: well, I can't speak for anyone else, but once I'm over the ending, if that's how it's left, I'll have lost interest not just in ME3 but also Bioware and view EA's branding as a liability that should be approached with caution.  I'm not sure that's the outcome they think they'll get.

Indeed.  I can only speak to myself and my reactions, but once I see no light at the end of the tunnel, I'll simply refuse to buy any Bioware products in the future.  If there are older (I guess comparatively) gamers around, when SOE tanked Galaxies, I simply refused to buy any SOE or Sony products.  Did I do it to try and see the company tank?  Not really.  I simply realized that a company that is going to do such things to its customers isn't worthy of my support in any sense.

I sincerely hope that Bioware abadons their 'let's all be quiet and maybe they'll go away' approach and actually addresses the problem here.  Sadly, if Hudson's patronizing statement is any indication of his actual thoughts, I suspect that he'll simply stonewall anybody trying to do anything for the people who want the ending fixed.  It's a shame if it comes to that.  I've been a Bioware fan and supporter ever since they came out with Baldur's Gate.  I've bought their games through the past decade, often pre-ordering, simply because I knew that they were a company that would produce quality and listen to their customers.

I can't say that I feel that is the case any longer.  From the misstep of Dragon Age 2, to the multiple missteps with The Old Republic, and now Mass Effect 3's debacle, I've the feeling that Bioware has fundamentally changed from a company that cares about its customers to one that cares about its money first.  It seems as long as they can do the bare minimum to get somebody to buy their recent games, that's what they do, and then they simply laugh all the way to the bank.

I hope I'm wrong.  I guess we'll see if they have enough care for the customer base to do what's right and address the issue in a forthright manner instead of hiding behind PR tactics and hoping that everybody just goes home.

[Jere85]

Ill remain loyal to BW, untill the word comes out there will not be an ending DLC, ToR sub will be terminated and no more money spent on any mass effect DLC/merchandise.
Not trying to make this sound as a threat, because its not really, just saying how it is.
I love bioware, they have made the best games i have ever played, but this was a huge mistake.

[TurambarEA]

This thread is moving way too fast to keep up. Just home - anything I've missed in the past five hours or so?

[Jere85]

TurambarEA wrote...

This thread is moving way too fast to keep up. Just home - anything I've missed in the past five hours or so?

Not too much, maybe you missed retailers giving full refunds for me3

[Luiginius]

 Want to point out this, don't put every studio in the same boat regarding "art". Some of the best see games for what they are, interactive medium. Whatch this, you won't be able to stop nodding in agreenment when he gives his speach.
www.bethblog.com/2012/02/08/watch-todd-howards-dice-keynote-live-on-gamespot/

[sabasebatyne]

Jamie9 wrote...


I say yes, but there was a discussion a
while back suggesting we leave actual voice actors of the game etc. out
of it, as it would leave them in an uncomfortable position. Getting
famous youtubers etc. to cover it could only be a good thing, however.

Yes, I agree. I think asking the voice actors would be out of place.

cyrrant wrote...


At issue here is that there has been a definitive move in the past couple years for developers to have their games seen as "art", which causes a misconception that anything produced as "art" is untouchable and immune to criticism.  Finding a developer willing to go against the grain on this one and refute the claim that art cannot be subject to the market forces that come with its being a consumer good.  In fact, there was a meeting at the Smithsonian the other day about games as art and some developers there said this whole debacle made them "very sad" because we should all just accept the vision Bioware has.

Plus, competing developers might not be the most trustworthy sources to outside observers, given that they may seem like they have a vested interest in Bioware's failure.

However, an eloquent voice from inside the industry might do something to quiet the naysayers in the gaming press.  This idea deserves more evaluation.  Also, how would you find a developer?  Can't just pick one up on a street corner.

You are quite right. At this point, an industry insider who seems credible to all sides seems unlikely to exist. Here's hoping this "Holy Grail" insider is found, anyway.

[azereus2]

im serius about this, the only damage control they have to do is fire the writter and then give a full free expansion pack with what ever was planned to be the ending.

[atghunter]

Good Morning(here), Afternoon, and Evening All,

Taking a quick break from work to post a couple thoughts  I'll post more individual responses when I finish at work and flesh out this post with any new information I find later. 

Some great discussions while I was gone btw (we saw topics ranging from Greek literature comparisons to Amazon returns).  I hope everyone enjoys the continuing civil discourse.  Let your voice be heard no matter what side you've taken in this!

As I've mentioned before, please remember so much of Bioware's response is still just "bunker and deflect" so don't be too disappointed that things remain relatively silent.  I suspect they will release any good news they have to the media to downplay this kerfuffle so don't sweat that either. In short, not many new tea leaves to read today, but that’s to be expected.

The things I caught from catching up on this thread are the Amazon refund offer and reports of a drop in game price to $39.99 from a major outlet. 

First, if the Amazon thing turns out to be outside of their normal return policy, I suspect someone in their (Amazon’s) PR department saw a way to get some free publicity out of the current Bioware/EA dustup.  Amazon knows many people are probably holding onto their games until Bioware charts a course publically, so the financial risk of mass returns is low but they get to claim the role of benevolent merchant by offering returns. Pretty much a win/win for them. 

Second, we've talked about it a number of times, but trending prices for any product can be a good indicator of sales (and sales projections).  Current ME3 sales figures are bolstered by strong pre-sale numbers and a virtual carpet bombing ad campaign trending since last week. Please remember my experience was in PR, not sales, but most sales/marketing folks I've ever talked to explain that those initial high numbers just don't always accurately project the future.  Eroding fan reaction undermining positive critics’ scores, negative media coverage, and market saturation in the absence of newly developed consumer interest can be strong factors to consider in future sales predictions.  In short, some sellers will drop prices (even if temporarily) to reduce their stockpile of a product and hedge against a slowdown. Watch for a trend. 

I need to do more data mining on both of these topics, but sleep and work are getting in the way.

On more quick thing (and I hope Bachuck can somehow get this to our front page along with linking this post).  Last night someone came up with the "send in your N7 patch or a photocopy thereof" idea.  For those inclined to participate, it is an excellent idea!  It shows that you are still interested in a resolution, that you are still involved, and that you are still a dissatisfied customer.  In short, it’s brilliant.
 
My compliments to you all on the engaging, civil, and entertaining discussions going on here. I’m jealous of those getting to spend more time here than I. Continue to seek ways to let your voice be heard (as your conscience guides) you no matter what side you have taken! /salute
 
Hold the Line!
   

 

 

[sabasebatyne]

azereus2 wrote...

im serius about this, the only damage control they have to do is fire the writter and then give a full free expansion pack with what ever was planned to be the ending.

According to Casey, the current endings are what was planned all along.

[Syrellaris]

wheelierdan wrote...

http://social.biowar.../index/10319355

just wanted to post this here, we have our grievances but we shouldn't lose sight of the positive things, they need to hear that too.

Thank you! I missed that post completely and have replied to him with something He hopefully and others ofcourse, find really interesting!

http://specialeffect.org.uk/index.htm

[Xellith]

They better do something because Bioware credibility and EA's already crumbling credability is starting to turn from slight erosion to a complete landslide.

[vigna]

azereus2 wrote...

im serius about this, the only damage control they have to do is fire the writter and then give a full free expansion pack with what ever was planned to be the ending.

My take is that the ending was never fleshed out.  Stories change and evolve as did ME3--many characters and species became more important than originally intended (this also due to fan input). At one point they debated full indoctrination control of Shepard, but it was too difficult to implement apparently. So they went with the partial control TIM demonstrated at the control panel. There is a Lead Writer, but honestly no one knows how the exact end came to be. There could have been pressure to do it like that, and people feeling Job security pressure not to say anything about it at all.

We will never know the story so we may as well forget about that. Thinking people should get fired is wrong-headed IMO.

I doubt they even change the endings as they stand. At most they will give us DLC that expands the ending to make it more clear and more varied with some sense of closure. That's my take, and what I'm shooting for.

Modifié par vigna, 20 mars 2012 - 04:29 .

[cyrrant]

TurambarEA wrote...

This thread is moving way too fast to keep up. Just home - anything I've missed in the past five hours or so?

BBC covered the issue with a fairly even hand.  There are things in the article I take issue with, such as the fact that it's not all about having a "happy ending" but that we want ALL the endings we were promised, and that we're not so much angry fans as we are angry consumers with no actual outlet (since a lot of us can't return the game, because it's a game).

If that strikes a chord with you, you can use their contact form to send them a quick note about the ending: news.bbc.co.uk/newswatch/ifs/hi/newsid_4000000/newsid_4000500/4000537.stm

Be sure that you remain civil if you do decide to send them anything, and try to thank them for reporting on this without resorting to the means of the gaming press.

Our Choices Should Matter - Hold the Line

EDIT: Should include a link to the article: www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-17444719

Modifié par cyrrant, 20 mars 2012 - 04:31 .

[Xellith]

They will fix the ending. Thats what im shooting for. Thats what im gonna get.

[The Almighty Ali]

Well I'm back from work and I have to say it does seem like things have been going on in my absense, Only only are we on BBC now but Amazon offering full refunds?
While one part can't help but feel that this will help the cause i'm going to admit that a part of me view it as a sad thing aswell, besides the ending Mass Effect 3 is a great game.
Pity it's come to this but that does mean I'm gonna give up.

As for the support Bioware group, are odd I think that anyone wants to keep a illogical and downright aweful ending on a product. I'm going to respect their choice to voice out their opinions, provided they are voices in a civil and serious manner.

[Bachuck]

sabasebatyne wrote...

Hardly an original thought here, but wouldn't getting high profile/celebrity gamers or industry figures involved in the discussion be a good idea? Call me naive, but it seems like that could only improve our odds by increasing awareness and support.

If there's a celebrity who's played the game and wants to voice their displeasure with it, then that would be an asset, but if someone from the 'Retake' movement is thinking about contacting a celebrity directly - or a ME voice actor - and asking for their support, then that would be a monumentally bad move that would kill the movement in a heartbeat.

You thought the FTC filing was bad? Wait until the general public hears about the "crazed group of gamers who harassed Yvonne Strahovski" on Twitter and tried to convince her to stand up against the company that employed her. Put yourself in that celebs place.

No, this is a fight between Bioware and their consumers. We fight our own battles. Leave everyone else out of it. 

[DrkCntry]

AloraKast wrote...

Am still trying to catch up with this thread, while attempting to at least maintain the illusion of being productive, but a thought has been bouncing around my brain.

Has anyone thought about reaching out to TotalBiscuit/Cynical Brit (mailbox@cynicalbrit.com) with respect to the Retake movement? I recently discovered his video blog, The Mailbox, and really like it, think he makes a great deal of sense and generally knows what he is talking about. He's even addressed the Day 1 DLC, specifically discussing ME3 in his blog of March 9th, as well as discussing the "entitled gamer" label (can't recall whether it was the blog from March 13th or 15th, apologies).

I am not sure whether he would cover it, considering that he doesn't take requests, but am curious whether anyone knows if this route has already been attempted.

Alas, must slink off back to work now.

He belongs to a group of Youtube commentators called The Game Station, to which they have a weekly pod/videocast...the most recent one completed on the 17th and was recently posted on the TGS Youtube page on the 19th...towards the end of the 3 hour bit they do a small "topical" section where the commentators discuss current rumblings in the game world.  Jesse (OMFGCata) Cox brought up the topic of the ME3 ending and they had a pretty good discussion on it.

http://youtu.be/BZazsebiv78?hd=1  <-- that should link you to the Youtube VoD.  Be warned, it is a three and a half hour long podcast and there's really no breakdown of what segment happens at what time.

Even with TB's boycott of the game (based upon his disdain for the Day 1 DLC) tempered his remarks because he hasn't experienced the ending, but he did bring up some rather salient points nonetheless...first and foremost that based upon his understanding of the issue that the game didn't really end in a manner that justified the actual game.  He feels (and I agree) that Shepard is really a plot device to carry the story along, and that the actual story is everyone else in the game, from the crew members to the other characters.  With it showing absolutely the bare minimum of an ending regarding the other characters that it effectively dismissed the notion that these characters actually meant something.

Outside of this, he doesn't have a stance one way or another simply because he hasn't played the game.

Modifié par DrkCntry, 20 mars 2012 - 04:33 .