9972 réponses à ce sujet

[HanshinRynuusuke]

dfstone wrote...

Anyone who's played the game has already purchased it so they got your money and if thats all EA is concerned about they've already won.

You are incorrect there. If in theory, I or you have grounds for a lawsuit or file a complaint with the FTC (Fed Trade Commission) and win; then I can demand reparations. In which case, EA would have to pay up no ifs or buts. In addition, the company (EA, in this case) could also face additional penalties for fraudulent and misleading business practices.

[HanshinRynuusuke]

monotoy wrote...

not sure if this was posted already

http://www.theverge....-ken-levine-sad

I found the statement from BioWare's Barnett "Just as J.K. Rowling can end her books and say that is the end of Harry Potter. I don't think she should be forced to make another one." is quite absurd. Rowling doesn't sell you the last book of Potter for $60, tells you that 50 pages are missing but only continue an additional character and some background information on the series but are not *totally* critical to the book, but that you can buy those 50 pages separately for an additional $10 if you want to actually read the book in its entirety, that she might release more pages later that you can also buy and read (preferably by reading the entire book again including the newly released pages), and then to top it all off ends the series by sending in an armada of tinfoilhat-wearing space hamsters riding pink ponies that kill Harry Potter and turn the universe into a cheesecake, described in 30 lines of text, because she saw fit to a "bittersweet" ending.

WOW! Nice summary ! I couldn't have said it better myself!

[GoblinSapper]

How did this slip off front page? BAD BSN!

Holding the Line

[Fulgrim88]

Dawnrunner wrote...

Sorry in advance if this has already been posted somewhere, but here is a little insight from basic/strategic marketing POW (mediocre english included, not native ))).

There are 6 basic types of customers relatively to your product (within targeted audience from planet population =)):

• unaware
• aware
• customer-dissatisfied
• customer-neutral
• customer-satisfied
• customer-involved (invested or whatever you prefer to call it).

Skipping all the basic theory, the companies like BioWare are always aiming at increasing the proportion of ppl in last, top-segment of involved customers to at least 25-30%.

While it might be obvious, not really all companies desperately need it, since that requires additional resources on all lvls of production-to-selling chain. F.e. producers of some basic, so called "traditional" (like UHT milk), commodities which generally got lower margins, are fine with 90% beeing around 4. You do not need to invest huge resources into ads, collecting customer responses, hiring army of sales staff etc. as long as you know that your product is "just fine". People will still buy it in huge amounts, you gain lower %margin, but higher absolute margins.

On the other hand there are companies like Apple (best example ever). Create products of exceptional (arguable) quality and aim at making it a "cult". This involves constantle evolving (or at least making ppl believe) your products, determining the paths by basing on insights delivered by research in any form (scientific research, constant market research, active customers involvement, etc.)

Gaining the army of "culprits" provides, in first and major place, HUGE %margins by selling your while well-designed but priced high product. In addition: makes fail-launches of new products close to impossible, boosts sales of associated goods (that often have even bigger %margins), give you free ads (culprits preaching of how good you are), etc-etc.   I'm using Apple products myself but for me it's like a deliberate self-indocrination  

Everytime you think "well, I'm ready to pay 60$ for this game" there is an echo in the back of your skull "even though it can't possibly cost that much!" - and you're right.

You're (just like me) one of the culprits, the involved customer, you're buying DLCs, associated materials like ELECTRONIC artbooks (which are, basically, the sketches produced during game developing process, e.g. the expenses are already included to the raw cost of the product, so you're effectively double-paying for that), action figures, Normandy SSV models etc. in 2011 I basically made my friend who have never heard about ME (he played and enjoyed KOTOR back in the days, but he generaly doesn't care about who developed game so "BioWare" doesn't ring any bell) try ME2 and prior to that buy ME1 cuz it wouldn't be any fun otherwise. Now he's ready to kill me for wasting money on ME3.

After completing ME3 I had one thought - BioWare is supposed to be that high %margin branch of EA delivering sales by maintaining their cult. Have EA fired their Lead mkt officer roughly at the same time as Drew left BW? If things are left like this, EA effectively nukes the temple where major part of all culprits gathered to worship BW and receive their latest divine gift.. =)

PR damage control actions can't possibly help with drastic strategic mistakes... If EA want to keep their high %margin machine named BioWare, they are bound to do something more serious.

Just my2cents. (or probably im just grabbing the straw like everyone tends to...)

Interesting insight. Thanks for sharing. I figured as much, but it's always nice to hear it from an insider

[DoctorCrowtgamer]

HanshinRynuusuke wrote...

dfstone wrote...

Anyone who's played the game has already purchased it so they got your money and if thats all EA is concerned about they've already won.

You are incorrect there. If in theory, I or you have grounds for a lawsuit or file a complaint with the FTC (Fed Trade Commission) and win; then I can demand reparations. In which case, EA would have to pay up no ifs or buts. In addition, the company (EA, in this case) could also face additional penalties for fraudulent and misleading business practices.

yeah.

But also EA needs DLc sales and Bioware needs us to buy their next game.  if we get though to them that that is not going to happen by sticking together and not giving in no matter how long they stall they will have to fix this.

Hold the line for as long as it takes people.

[Avaric4]

GoblinSapper wrote...

How did this slip off front page? BAD BSN!

Holding the Line

Considering that it only takes a minute for a page to fall off...

[Teacher50]

Luiginius wrote...

 Want to point out this, don't put every studio in the same boat regarding "art". Some of the best see games for what they are, interactive medium. Whatch this, you won't be able to stop nodding in agreenment when he gives his speach.
www.bethblog.com/2012/02/08/watch-todd-howards-dice-keynote-live-on-gamespot/

Lengthy but telling. Allow yourself about 45 minutes to play through this keynote from Tom.

The theme comes comes together at end when he talks about payoff, feel good moment. This is likely why so many longtime players feel somewhat empty at the end of ME3. Bioware did a lot of things well but didn't go the extra few steps.

Thanks Luiginius... Good catch.

[sabasebatyne]

You know, what kills me about Ken Levine's remarks is that he seemingly forgets his earlier response to Roger Ebert's comments about video games as art. Remember that, when he essentially said that games were more about blowing crap up and less about artistic statements? Where he invited gamers to sidestep the artistic issue?
http://www.gameinfor...ow-a-pair.aspx
"Crack open a two liter of Mountain Dew. Snap into a Slim Jim. Proceed to Xbox Live and shoot your best friend in the head with an M-16."
Now he's concerned about artistic precedent. I call BS.

[DoctorCrowtgamer]

We will win this if we stick together.

Hold the line for as long as it takes people.

[PluralAces]

Sandoo wrote...

Is saying "hold the line" really enough ?

I would be Bioware or EA, that would just make me laught. What would make me want to act/react is that player actually boycot all bioware/EA games.
If you're saying that and still playing games on Origin, it just show no determination and my guess is once you've finished the game, you'll forget all about this "ending thing".

Or maybe ignoring the BSN for a few days could do the trick ? No messages, no one actually visiting the forum.
Since they don't answer when the forum are spam, maybe they will if we start completely ignoring them.

Right now, they are playing a dangerous game. Loosing respect from their most devoted fans. The ones who will buy collector edition, pre order or DLC.
We know they made a lot of money from the ME saga, they could develop this ending dlc without any real problem. And like I said, now it's only a matter of how they want to be seen by the fans.
Do they care about customers or simply don't give a f**k. And even with all that, if they do a good ending DLC, they would be the bigger man and earn some respect.

The best way to show EA/Bioware that the community means business is to hit their pockets, if single player DLC is released for ME3 and it doesnt have a fix/change for the endings, dont buy it, thats what I plan to do!!

[Captain_Obvious]

HanshinRynuusuke wrote...

dfstone wrote...

Anyone who's played the game has already purchased it so they got your money and if thats all EA is concerned about they've already won.

You are incorrect there. If in theory, I or you have grounds for a lawsuit or file a complaint with the FTC (Fed Trade Commission) and win; then I can demand reparations. In which case, EA would have to pay up no ifs or buts. In addition, the company (EA, in this case) could also face additional penalties for fraudulent and misleading business practices.

I'm fairly sure that the EULA for every version of the game has provisions which hold EA and Bioware harmless.  A complaint with the FTC, while more logical, is less likely to obtain serious consideration.  They did announce 16 endings, and there are 16 endings, just not to the significantly varying degrees that we expected.  I don't believe legal action against either Bioware or EA is warranted or justified by a crappy ending. 

[dfstone]

HanshinRynuusuke wrote...

dfstone wrote...

Anyone who's played the game has already purchased it so they got your money and if thats all EA is concerned about they've already won.

You are incorrect there. If in theory, I or you have grounds for a lawsuit or file a complaint with the FTC (Fed Trade Commission) and win; then I can demand reparations. In which case, EA would have to pay up no ifs or buts. In addition, the company (EA, in this case) could also face additional penalties for fraudulent and misleading business practices.

No you can't.  Video games are entertainment lumped with movies and music.  You can't demand a refund because you didn't like a song or a movie.  Its buyer beware.  There's no fraud here.  Talk of a lawsuit is retarded nonsense.

[Fulgrim88]

PluralAces wrote...

Sandoo wrote...

Is saying "hold the line" really enough ?

I would be Bioware or EA, that would just make me laught. What would make me want to act/react is that player actually boycot all bioware/EA games.
If you're saying that and still playing games on Origin, it just show no determination and my guess is once you've finished the game, you'll forget all about this "ending thing".

Or maybe ignoring the BSN for a few days could do the trick ? No messages, no one actually visiting the forum.
Since they don't answer when the forum are spam, maybe they will if we start completely ignoring them.

Right now, they are playing a dangerous game. Loosing respect from their most devoted fans. The ones who will buy collector edition, pre order or DLC.
We know they made a lot of money from the ME saga, they could develop this ending dlc without any real problem. And like I said, now it's only a matter of how they want to be seen by the fans.
Do they care about customers or simply don't give a f**k. And even with all that, if they do a good ending DLC, they would be the bigger man and earn some respect.

The best way to show EA/Bioware that the community means business is to hit their pockets, if single player DLC is released for ME3 and it doesnt have a fix/change for the endings, dont buy it, thats what I plan to do!!

I wouldn't even know.

I took the disgrace that was ME3s ending as a welcome opportunity to get rid of Origin altogether

Won't reinstall until I hear anything about a satisfying ending dlc on BSN

[DoctorCrowtgamer]

PluralAces wrote...

Sandoo wrote...

Is saying "hold the line" really enough ?

I would be Bioware or EA, that would just make me laught. What would make me want to act/react is that player actually boycot all bioware/EA games.
If you're saying that and still playing games on Origin, it just show no determination and my guess is once you've finished the game, you'll forget all about this "ending thing".

Or maybe ignoring the BSN for a few days could do the trick ? No messages, no one actually visiting the forum.
Since they don't answer when the forum are spam, maybe they will if we start completely ignoring them.

Right now, they are playing a dangerous game. Loosing respect from their most devoted fans. The ones who will buy collector edition, pre order or DLC.
We know they made a lot of money from the ME saga, they could develop this ending dlc without any real problem. And like I said, now it's only a matter of how they want to be seen by the fans.
Do they care about customers or simply don't give a f**k. And even with all that, if they do a good ending DLC, they would be the bigger man and earn some respect.

The best way to show EA/Bioware that the community means business is to hit their pockets, if single player DLC is released for ME3 and it doesnt have a fix/change for the endings, dont buy it, thats what I plan to do!!

yeah that is what this is about.  we will not touch any Bioware or EA products until a new endings DLC is released.  We will not fall for their PR spin.  If we stick together and don't give up we will win.

Hold the line for as long as it takes people.

[wheelierdan]

i dont see how 16 roads to the same 3 cutscenes constitutes 16 different endings. I realize there slight differences to the earth footage but still. We though the series was a branching tree and in fact it was a funnel.

[Boceephus]

HanshinRynuusuke wrote...

monotoy wrote...

not sure if this was posted already

http://www.theverge....-ken-levine-sad

I found the statement from BioWare's Barnett "Just as J.K. Rowling can end her books and say that is the end of Harry Potter. I don't think she should be forced to make another one." is quite absurd. Rowling doesn't sell you the last book of Potter for $60, tells you that 50 pages are missing but only continue an additional character and some background information on the series but are not *totally* critical to the book, but that you can buy those 50 pages separately for an additional $10 if you want to actually read the book in its entirety, that she might release more pages later that you can also buy and read (preferably by reading the entire book again including the newly released pages), and then to top it all off ends the series by sending in an armada of tinfoilhat-wearing space hamsters riding pink ponies that kill Harry Potter and turn the universe into a cheesecake, described in 30 lines of text, because she saw fit to a "bittersweet" ending.

WOW! Nice summary ! I couldn't have said it better myself!

I'm really starting to get frustrated with people who try to defend the ending with "artistic integrity" and then use every example of medium OTHER then video games. Seriously, I've heard analogies for books (Harry Potter), tv shows (Lost), films (Star Wars) and painted art (Numerous) and none of them are apt. If this is the only tenent of your argument, at least use it correctly.

Holding the Line.

[DoctorCrowtgamer]

Boceephus wrote...

HanshinRynuusuke wrote...

monotoy wrote...

not sure if this was posted already

http://www.theverge....-ken-levine-sad

I found the statement from BioWare's Barnett "Just as J.K. Rowling can end her books and say that is the end of Harry Potter. I don't think she should be forced to make another one." is quite absurd. Rowling doesn't sell you the last book of Potter for $60, tells you that 50 pages are missing but only continue an additional character and some background information on the series but are not *totally* critical to the book, but that you can buy those 50 pages separately for an additional $10 if you want to actually read the book in its entirety, that she might release more pages later that you can also buy and read (preferably by reading the entire book again including the newly released pages), and then to top it all off ends the series by sending in an armada of tinfoilhat-wearing space hamsters riding pink ponies that kill Harry Potter and turn the universe into a cheesecake, described in 30 lines of text, because she saw fit to a "bittersweet" ending.

WOW! Nice summary ! I couldn't have said it better myself!

I'm really starting to get frustrated with people who try to defend the ending with "artistic integrity" and then use every example of medium OTHER then video games. Seriously, I've heard analogies for books (Harry Potter), tv shows (Lost), films (Star Wars) and painted art (Numerous) and none of them are apt. If this is the only tenent of your argument, at least use it correctly.

Holding the Line.

Not to mention that if changing a game means that it is not art then Bioware gave up their right to call themselves aretist the first time they released a patch or DLC for one of their games.  They have changed games before.

Hold the line for as long as it takes people.

[blurryhunter]

iiNOMADii wrote...

@bluryhunter

There is more to these endings that originally believed, because Shepard was indoctrinated. Nothing makes ANY sense otherwise.

My only real issue with the Theory is that it gives BioWare an escape point in the event they really did do something wrong.

Excuse paranoia here, but if they amended the ending to Mass Effect 3, proving the Indoctrination Theory, how will anyone know if they did it because it was what they planned, or because it they saw it as a convienent means to make it look as if they'd planned it all along? You can't know unless they go out and say something. That's what bothers me.

On one side, they're right, and praised for it. On the other hand, their wrong, but praised for being right, because no one is the wiser.

Don't mistake me, I don't hate BioWare, but when you make mistakes, you should take responsibility for them, one way or the other. If for no other reason than for the fact that if they get away with it now, they may try to get away with it later, and eventually, it won't work, depriving the industry of a developer that could possibly learn from their mistakes and be the better for it.

I don't want to see BioWare become the next in a growing list of 'loved them yesterday, hate them today' developers. BioWare has produced some amazing work. The Mass Effect series alone practically defining, for me at any rate, what it means to have a game transcend into an experience. This is, at worst, a lie, at best, a misunderstanding. Neither of which needs to damn them for eternity if the table is played right. That means acknowledging, learning, and correcting mistakes.

[wheelierdan]

fr me you cant claim artistic integrity if you dont keep the integrity of your source material. that's the crux of the argument really, they abandoned the lore.

[Kondorr]

Boceephus wrote...

I'm really starting to get frustrated with people who try to defend the ending with "artistic integrity" and then use every example of medium OTHER then video games. Seriously, I've heard analogies for books (Harry Potter), tv shows (Lost), films (Star Wars) and painted art (Numerous) and none of them are apt. If this is the only tenent of your argument, at least use it correctly.

Holding the Line.

I hope i will try to use it correctly... people where VERY dissapointed in the way Liara apeared in the second game... she did only a minor cameo... a few month we got Liar of the Shadowbroker... an expansion the fans craved for... and a continuation of one of many story threads...

After a few months the same game got something called transition DLC... which was meant to happen between the ending of ME2 and the beginnging of ME3, ergo creating a NEW END to ME2...

Get my drift?

Holding the line!

EDIT: And I do dare tro say that both DLCs made the core game better!

Modifié par Kondorr, 20 mars 2012 - 06:13 .

[DoctorCrowtgamer]

wheelierdan wrote...

fr me you cant claim artistic integrity if you dont keep the integrity of your source material. that's the crux of the argument really, they abandoned the lore.

Well said! 

Hold the line for as long as it takes people.

[Damate]

Definitely agreed: Right now all we can really do is hold and continue with our peaceful means of showing how we feel as fans and consumers. The Child's Play charity (I love checking out the website whenever I feel the need for a pick-me-up), sending letters, N7 Patches, etc.

If and when they should announce DLC that has nothing to do with fixing the endings... then I'll promptly be boycotting that. DLC that fixes the ending I'll pay for. And I'll pay for other good DLC that comes after that. But right now purchasing DLC that does nothing to address our concerns won't make our point and it certainly won't satisfy me as a player. The first 95% of ME3 is bloody fantastic -- but the ending is enough to may replaying it too painful to enjoy. I don't need more pre-Ending content to further remind me that in the current ending stripped us of real choices that make sense.

[dfstone]

The Hary Potter thing is kinda accurate. It would be like Rowling cutting out the last 3 chapters of the last book and selling them to you individually at a later date.

[SweetJeeba]

The art angle is BS, Martin Sheen's dialogue aw rescheduled from August to November because they struggled with an ending. They were looking for a good way to end not an end that would make a statement or reflect an artistic vision.

[MysticBinary82]

I don't know if anyone noticed but there is a large pricedrop in germany for the standard edition. That shows some desperation, doesn't it?

http://www.amazon.de/dp/B004FPYHBE

It is now only 39,99€ that is rapid for a AAA game. COD stayed constant over monthes with 49,99€

Modifié par MysticBinary82, 20 mars 2012 - 06:14 .