9972 réponses à ce sujet

[OneWithTheAssassins]

AJ2324 wrote...

Best and worst endings in Games & Movies:

Some of my favorites:

Movie
LOTR
Fight Club
Inception
Gladiator
Braveheart

Game
ME 2
Fight Night Champion
Castlevania Lords of Shadow


WORST:
Mass Effect 3 Blue
Mass Effect 3 Green
Mass Effect 3 Orange/Red Whatever
Lost TV series
Dues Ex: Human Revolution

Deus Ex: Human Revolution's ending were good because it actualy told you how your chose mattered in a cool narative with great qouts about the very nature, essence, and final purpose of being human. Mass Effect 3 just gave us different colored explostions with the normandy crashing. Fun...

Modifié par OneWithTheAssassins, 21 mars 2012 - 05:30 .

[atghunter]

finally catches up the the present* I had a wonderful time reading the thread tonight folks.

My compliments on some great discussion, and a solid salute to everyone who made new folks coming in feel welcome. I mentioned it earlier tonight, but you've built something special here.

You've all, once again, made an old gamer smile.

Loggin off to go answer some great e-mails and get some rest! /salute

Continue to stay strong, stay passionate, stay civil, and use your incredible voices to stand up no matter what side you take! Beside you all, I shall gladly...

Hold the Line

*Except for that post made just before I left...Let's answer that first.

Modifié par atghunter, 21 mars 2012 - 06:08 .

[joshko]

jarrettwold wrote...

Except when his broad generalizations of what a PR strategy includes, are just wrong.  Mischaracterazations of Bioware's intent and how they're handling this are fundamentally incorrect.  If anything he's utilizing his previous PR damage control skills, on the users here.  Which bugs me.  It's a straight up, text book insurgency strategy. 

I'm all for asking for an alternate ending, criticizing it.  Giving constructive criticism.  Explaining how you feel.  After digging through days worth of tweets from just about every Bioware employee that's on twitter, they care about what they do.  They care about interacting with their customers.  They care about the community.

I've spent quality time in the past reading research papers, books and a variety of other things.  Dissecting failure of companies in customer service.  So far, they're doing everything RIGHT.  They're soliciting feedback, not clamping down on their forums, social networking or even their employees.  

If you're not looking at everything atg is saying just as critically, as the things he's "identifying" then you're doing yourself a disservice.

I will of course immediately be labeled as a corporate drone, a plant.  Some conspiracy driven thing straight out of the X-Files.  But, I'm not.  After looking at just about everything PR that they're doing, atg is just fundamentally wrong.  

I've dug through the attacks on people, employees of Bioware.  The vicious ones.  The majority aren't vicious, but the ones that are, are especially so.  Remember, the company you're targeting is staffed by people.  People that care about something they've been working on and have been breathing for the last what? 7 years?  My concern is that it's taking a huge toll on those guys.  They're human beings.  

Remember, look at what the dude is actually doing.  It's a straight up insurgency strat. 

vigna wrote...

ATG never gives up. He's always there. Fighting for freedom over land and air!
Hold the line.

Yeah we've been championing a civil campeign from the start, naturally we can't control what some do but we try to encourage them to behave.

[Ender99]

Red_Skye wrote...

 Hello everyone! I haven't had the time to read over all of this thread having just found it. I am wanting to contribute any form of help I can. In saying that I'm not sure if this article has been posted here or not while this is a thread to talk about the way EA/Bioware is handling the PR work, I think this article is a must read for anyone on both sides of the debate here. 

http://www.themetaga...oblem-with.html

Also this is my first time organising myself into any form of protest and for a bit I had the thought that nothing I did could matter. But after reading the OP summary and reading all of the more highly intelligent analysis of this situation from a professional point of view. Has lit a fire under my butt, and I am currently looking into sending my N7 patch back to Bioware. While I can't give money to the cause for RME3 being a college student. I will be sending this information to all of my friends who played Mass Effect. In summary I would like to thank all of you posters in giving me hope that my opinion does in fact matter.

Glad you decided to join us. Now, grab a banner and help us hold the line. We are in it for the long run and the more people like you who join the better.

[Nithe]

Panicomatic wrote...

*snip*

Our complaints are valid. There were a lot of times in the past that BioWare employees on the record made promises about the game that they did not deliver on. Why does this constitute an almost constant attack on our character? I've been a loyal consumer to BioWare since Baldur's gate.

We have had to adopt an agressive stance, simply because EA has adopted a defensive one, and this can come off as bully-like behavior to an outside observor, to someone who doesn't have all the data. To them, we are like Diogenes, and EA and Bioware are like Alexander and Plato.

Or, perhaps, certain persons have an agenda outside their normal purview. I can't say.

Edit: Sleep well, atghunter.

Modifié par Nithe, 21 mars 2012 - 05:30 .

[Shadowmourne07]

I personally would like to believe that they already had a good ending coming, they just ran out of time.
There is too much in the series that suggests that the final few minutes of the game were a hallucination, or a dream. Indoctrination if you will. Sure, it may seem like a cop-out, but if it's true it would set up for a really spectacular ending. (Provided the ending dlc is free)

This video explains it perfectly. (And yes, I thought it was a cop out first too, but have since changed my mind on the subject)
 

[OneWithTheAssassins]

Sorry, double post.

Modifié par OneWithTheAssassins, 21 mars 2012 - 05:32 .

[AJ2324]

Oh by far ME 3 is worst don't get me wrong. Just off the top of my mind. I'm trying to seriously think if there actually is a worst ending that is comparable....I'm not sure there is.

OneWithTheAssassins wrote...

AJ2324 wrote...

Best and worst endings in Games & Movies:

Some of my favorites:

Movie
LOTR
Fight Club
Inception
Gladiator
Braveheart

Game
ME 2
Fight Night Champion
Castlevania Lords of Shadow


WORST:
Mass Effect 3 Blue
Mass Effect 3 Green
Mass Effect 3 Orange/Red Whatever
Lost TV series
Dues Ex: Human Revolution

Deus Ex: Human Revolution's ending were good because it actualy told you how your chose mattered in a cool narative with great qouts about the very nature, essence, and final purpose of being human. Mass Effect three just gave us different colored explostions with the normandy crashing. Fun...

[Utopianus]

wheelierdan wrote...

i think its pretty telling how many people reacted with confusion. If it was simply a bad ending everyone would say, wow i hated that. but this ending is so jarringly disconnected with the rest of the game your first reaction can only be confusion.

Didn't mean to bomb, but here's a repost of my response elsewhere which backs up your sentiments:

Here's my two cents. Bittersweet ending definitely fits the overall theme and feel to the Mass Effect atmosphere, and the BioWare writers have (or at least Casey Hudson had) explicitly stated they wanted a bittersweet ending. However, before writing something, it is just a concept, and it is how you execute and present that concept is whether or not people will perceive if something is precisely something you said it was.

Aristophanes, the great playwright, had once defined tragedy and comedy as different sides of the same thing - make your audience empathise (not sympathy, but to relate to and feel with the characters) with the characters, do something bad to them, and you will have a tragedy. Remove the empathy and follow the same formula and you will have a comedy - that's what Schadenfreude is.

Following that, let's examine the last 10 minutes of Mass Effect - most people I have chatted with or read comments on the ending, be they for or against it, agree that from the moment Shepard is hit by Harbinger there is a surreal and disconnected, dream-like quality - thus empathy is severed. Indeed, empathy and the degree of empathy varies from person to person, but from what seem like you being in the middle of it all to feeling like it was dream-like is a telling sign of severance of empathy - you actually do feel like a third person watching helplessly at Shepard than being right beside him, or outright BE him. Thus, Shepard's death moments later was not met by anguished "NOOOOOO" but with mostly "WTF!!". As has been established above, and the sentiments followed, tragedy it was not, and was not exactly what it felt like to most people, simply incomprehension and confusion. Now for the "sweet" part. I think no matter where we stand on this issue, we can at least agree that there is nothing sweet about plot holes, and I won't get into the details of all the plot holes there are as I'm sure you are either aware of them or have read about them already. Even Normandy's escape and Joker's survival is a plot hole, in fact it represents a majority of those plot holes. The single fact of Joker and some of Shepard's crew's survival is strongly negated by the impossibility due to shear size of the plot holes introduced. Again, I won't go into how or why they're plot holes, you should know already. So in the end, we got neither a tragedy or sweetness, thus we didn't get a "bittersweet" ending - we got NOTHING, period.

I know this is getting long, but bear with me. As you will realise, another major source of contention is The Catalyst, now popularly known as the Star Child/Kid. It is not its existence that has drawn flak, but at which point in the narrative it was introduced. It was introduced in the last 10 minutes in a 100 hour + continuous narrative, which is equivalent to being the last sentence of a novel. Now if you have written essays at high school and univeristy levels, you would have been instructed in how to write them, and one of the first things you were told NOT to do is to introduce a new theme, concept, idea or character in the conclusion segment, as you will not have enough time and space to explain it thoroughly and completely throws off the pace and established tragectory of your previous narrative, thus causing confusion, as your audience had come this far to see you how you would tie all the strings together, not for you to suddenly say "oh lookie, here's one more string! But let's just leave it at that" . And no, this is a non-negotiable cardinal rule of writing, not matter if you are writing an essay, thesis, journalistic article, court ruling or novel, this is one of the rules that is strictly abide-by. The only way you may even be able to get away with doing this is to explain and resolve the who/how/why/what for the thing you have introduced, and quickly, which requires you to put it at the beginning of the conclusion, not the last sentence. If you fail the above then you will be rightly accused of bad writing or a lazy writer for you are unable to pull together a coherent stream of argument or narrative, which is what the accusations of deus ex machina is all about.

So to conclude, we didn't get an ending, let alone bittersweet, and the conclusion was written with a fatal flaw, and that is reason enough to strongly dislike the ending, especially to a hitherto well-written narrative, because that just amplifies the disappointment.

EDIT: reformatted structure

Modifié par Utopianus, 21 mars 2012 - 05:33 .

[Dice2624]

Here is an article from gametrailers.com (Wasn't sure if it was posted yet)

[Nithe]

jarrettwold wrote...

Except when his broad generalizations of what a PR strategy includes, are just wrong.  Mischaracterazations of Bioware's intent and how they're handling this are fundamentally incorrect.  If anything he's utilizing his previous PR damage control skills, on the users here.  Which bugs me.  It's a straight up, text book insurgency strategy. 

I'm all for asking for an alternate ending, criticizing it.  Giving constructive criticism.  Explaining how you feel.  After digging through days worth of tweets from just about every Bioware employee that's on twitter, they care about what they do.  They care about interacting with their customers.  They care about the community.

I've spent quality time in the past reading research papers, books and a variety of other things.  Dissecting failure of companies in customer service.  So far, they're doing everything RIGHT.  They're soliciting feedback, not clamping down on their forums, social networking or even their employees.  

If you're not looking at everything atg is saying just as critically, as the things he's "identifying" then you're doing yourself a disservice.

I will of course immediately be labeled as a corporate drone, a plant.  Some conspiracy driven thing straight out of the X-Files.  But, I'm not.  After looking at just about everything PR that they're doing, atg is just fundamentally wrong.  

I've dug through the attacks on people, employees of Bioware.  The vicious ones.  The majority aren't vicious, but the ones that are, are especially so.  Remember, the company you're targeting is staffed by people.  People that care about something they've been working on and have been breathing for the last what? 7 years?  My concern is that it's taking a huge toll on those guys.  They're human beings.  

Remember, look at what the dude is actually doing.  It's a straight up insurgency strat. 

Could you please be more specific? You've painted the situation with rather broad strokes and made a few interesting claims... I hope you're willing to expand upon them.

[shephard987]

jarrettwold wrote...

Except when his broad generalizations of what a PR strategy includes, are just wrong.  Mischaracterazations of Bioware's intent and how they're handling this are fundamentally incorrect.  If anything he's utilizing his previous PR damage control skills, on the users here.  Which bugs me.  It's a straight up, text book insurgency strategy. 

I'm all for asking for an alternate ending, criticizing it.  Giving constructive criticism.  Explaining how you feel.  After digging through days worth of tweets from just about every Bioware employee that's on twitter, they care about what they do.  They care about interacting with their customers.  They care about the community.

I've spent quality time in the past reading research papers, books and a variety of other things.  Dissecting failure of companies in customer service.  So far, they're doing everything RIGHT.  They're soliciting feedback, not clamping down on their forums, social networking or even their employees.  

If you're not looking at everything atg is saying just as critically, as the things he's "identifying" then you're doing yourself a disservice.

I will of course immediately be labeled as a corporate drone, a plant.  Some conspiracy driven thing straight out of the X-Files.  But, I'm not.  After looking at just about everything PR that they're doing, atg is just fundamentally wrong.  

I've dug through the attacks on people, employees of Bioware.  The vicious ones.  The majority aren't vicious, but the ones that are, are especially so.  Remember, the company you're targeting is staffed by people.  People that care about something they've been working on and have been breathing for the last what? 7 years?  My concern is that it's taking a huge toll on those guys.  They're human beings.  

Remember, look at what the dude is actually doing.  It's a straight up insurgency strat. 

vigna wrote...

ATG never gives up. He's always there. Fighting for freedom over land and air!
Hold the line.

We realize your concerned opinion and you are heard. 
While ATG provides us with knowledge, there are many of us that dissect this advice
and cross reference it with other known PR methods. 
There is truth in what he is saying. 
However, PR is not BioWare, the people that made the ME galaxy.

PR is corporate, EA and I can sure as hell tell you they're don't care about fan service at all.
We have no beef with BioWare themselves.
We are doing our best to appeal to their rational nature and voice our opinions as fans.
We get angry, however, when the PR pulls stunts like the twitter accounts today and the IGN polls and the
slandering articles that come out every other hour.
While those things are surely not under the direct effect of EA's PR, the methods of waiting this shindig out
are old war tactics by themselves. 
We know This is not a conspiracy. 

This is us voicing our discontent with EA and BioWare on how they are handling the situation at the moment.
The longer PR tactics keep happening, taunting us by posting things and then deleting them, the more we get civil and show we are the better half and we isn't going away if they simply IGNORE this problem.
Please, see reason in what we're doing and who we are looking up to in this movement. 
Information is power, and ATG has provided us with a lot of that. 
We do not regard him as a God, or anything of the sort.
We value his input and his input is rational, and through that he has become a valued member of the group. 
He upholds civility more than a lot of people in this movement, and while most would rather storm BioWare and EA
 he lets us see that we can be better than that.


Hold the Line

[OneWithTheAssassins]

@AJ2324
The reason ME3 endings were so bad was mostly because of how awsome the rest of the game was, then we get hit in the face with a ball that came straight out of the left field.
There are many more reasons why its terrible but I'm not going into detail on it.
I don't think there IS a worst ending, sadly enough. Most games with terrible endings were mostly mediocre to begin with.

Modifié par OneWithTheAssassins, 21 mars 2012 - 05:39 .

[Ahms]

jarrettwold wrote...

Except when his broad generalizations of what a PR strategy includes, are just wrong.  Mischaracterazations of Bioware's intent and how they're handling this are fundamentally incorrect.  If anything he's utilizing his previous PR damage control skills, on the users here.  Which bugs me.  It's a straight up, text book insurgency strategy.

I'm all for asking for an alternate ending, criticizing it.  Giving constructive criticism.  Explaining how you feel.  After digging through days worth of tweets from just about every Bioware employee that's on twitter, they care about what they do.  They care about interacting with their customers.  They care about the community.

I've spent quality time in the past reading research papers, books and a variety of other things.  Dissecting failure of companies in customer service.  So far, they're doing everything RIGHT.  They're soliciting feedback, not clamping down on their forums, social networking or even their employees.  

If you're not looking at everything atg is saying just as critically, as the things he's "identifying" then you're doing yourself a disservice.

I will of course immediately be labeled as a corporate drone, a plant.  Some conspiracy driven thing straight out of the X-Files.  But, I'm not.  After looking at just about everything PR that they're doing, atg is just fundamentally wrong.  

I've dug through the attacks on people, employees of Bioware.  The vicious ones.  The majority aren't vicious, but the ones that are, are especially so.  Remember, the company you're targeting is staffed by people.  People that care about something they've been working on and have been breathing for the last what? 7 years?  My concern is that it's taking a huge toll on those guys.  They're human beings.  

Remember, look at what the dude is actually doing.  It's a straight up insurgency strat. 

vigna wrote...

ATG never gives up. He's always there. Fighting for freedom over land and air!
Hold the line.

I'm not ruling out any agent provocateurs. But to think that EA goes so far as getting infiltrators and disinformation agents is the stuff of a bad spy flick. I'm sure EA has a counter-intelligence division to protect against corporate espionage, but dude....

[Ender99]

Everyone, continue holding the line. This soldier must sleep.

[Panicomatic]

Nithe wrote...

Panicomatic wrote...

*snip*

Our complaints are valid. There were a lot of times in the past that BioWare employees on the record made promises about the game that they did not deliver on. Why does this constitute an almost constant attack on our character? I've been a loyal consumer to BioWare since Baldur's gate.

We have had to adopt an agressive stance, simply because EA has adopted a defensive one, and this can come off as bully-like behavior to an outside observor, to someone who doesn't have all the data. To them, we are like Diogenes, and EA and Bioware are like Alexander and Plato.

Or, perhaps, certain persons have an agenda outside their normal purview. I can't say.

Edit: Sleep well, atghunter.

Hopefully it earns us more then placating responses and more lies.

[Nithe]

Ahms wrote...

*snip*

I'm not ruling out any agent provocateurs. But to think that EA goes so far as getting infiltrators and disinformation agents is the stuff of a bad spy flick. I'm sure EA has a counter-intelligence division to protect against corporate espionage, but dude....

But... what if that's what they want us to think!*

*sarcasm

[Ahms]

Nithe wrote...

Ahms wrote...

*snip*

I'm not ruling out any agent provocateurs. But to think that EA goes so far as getting infiltrators and disinformation agents is the stuff of a bad spy flick. I'm sure EA has a counter-intelligence division to protect against corporate espionage, but dude....

But... what if that's what they want us to think!*

*sarcasm

I'm not gonna fall the ol' triple reverse bluff..... for the fourth time.

[Shadowmourne07]

It's a little know fact that Hitler started WII because his favourite tv show had a crappy ending too.



>.>
<.<

I feel sorry for Canadians.

[thejoyrider]

a few pages back somebody mentioned how they feel like BW is trying to get fans to lose hope and give up and i feel like this is true...especially with the fact that they are very clearly watching the forums (as evidenced by rule enforcements) but not responding to anybody and are very active on other social media like twitter but are only responding to positive feedback. right now they are pulling what i like to call 'abusive boyfriend' moves aka making you feel like you're overreacting, that you're crazy for feeling the way you do, minimizing your issues, ignoring/not listening, all that kind of stuff. and as evidenced by some posts on this forum, it's working with some of the fans who are feeling super bummed out and wanting to give up.

[ZxeroSyrom]

Holding the line in Japan (Military).
Im curious to what Mark Meers, being a known RPGer, thinks of the endings..just curious.

[kato42]

Ahms wrote...

I'm not ruling out any agent provocateurs. But to think that EA goes so far as getting infiltrators and disinformation agents is the stuff of a bad spy flick. I'm sure EA has a counter-intelligence division to protect against corporate espionage, but dude....

Well, sock puppets are hardly unheard of, and they aren't exactly expensive either.  And when you are talking about the difference of a few million in sales revenue... well...


As always, excellent thread.


And those videos linked in the current version of the first post?  There is an updated Animal House ending.  The restaraunt one is sooo accurate.  And the music for the most insidous reaper of all is now stuck in my head.

Gee, thanks guys....

[BaKaNoOB]

Good morning...
Best Bittersweet ending in Game which i played (I'm in 30's now)
FreeSpace 2

Hold The Line

[Nithe]

thejoyrider wrote...

a few pages back somebody mentioned how they feel like BW is trying to get fans to lose hope and give up and i feel like this is true...especially with the fact that they are very clearly watching the forums (as evidenced by rule enforcements) but not responding to anybody and are very active on other social media like twitter but are only responding to positive feedback. right now they are pulling what i like to call 'abusive boyfriend' moves aka making you feel like you're overreacting, that you're crazy for feeling the way you do, minimizing your issues, ignoring/not listening, all that kind of stuff. and as evidenced by some posts on this forum, it's working with some of the fans who are feeling super bummed out and wanting to give up.

EA has everything to lose by drawing this out, and if they do decide to just shrug us off then they risk alienating their core fanbase, turning former devotees and advocates into disgruntled former customers. Every 'bummed out' fan is a lost future sale.

It's a possibility, one I've brought up as well, but it's really the least likely scenario. It would be bad business. So, I'm not sure what's going on. We just don't have enough information.

Modifié par Nithe, 21 mars 2012 - 05:51 .

[BillMcD]

jarrettwold wrote...

Except when his broad generalizations of what a PR strategy includes, are just wrong.  Mischaracterazations of Bioware's intent and how they're handling this are fundamentally incorrect.  If anything he's utilizing his previous PR damage control skills, on the users here.  Which bugs me.  It's a straight up, text book insurgency strategy. 

I'm all for asking for an alternate ending, criticizing it.  Giving constructive criticism.  Explaining how you feel.  After digging through days worth of tweets from just about every Bioware employee that's on twitter, they care about what they do.  They care about interacting with their customers.  They care about the community.

I've spent quality time in the past reading research papers, books and a variety of other things.  Dissecting failure of companies in customer service.  So far, they're doing everything RIGHT.  They're soliciting feedback, not clamping down on their forums, social networking or even their employees.  

If you're not looking at everything atg is saying just as critically, as the things he's "identifying" then you're doing yourself a disservice.

I will of course immediately be labeled as a corporate drone, a plant.  Some conspiracy driven thing straight out of the X-Files.  But, I'm not.  After looking at just about everything PR that they're doing, atg is just fundamentally wrong.  

I've dug through the attacks on people, employees of Bioware.  The vicious ones.  The majority aren't vicious, but the ones that are, are especially so.  Remember, the company you're targeting is staffed by people.  People that care about something they've been working on and have been breathing for the last what? 7 years?  My concern is that it's taking a huge toll on those guys.  They're human beings.  

Remember, look at what the dude is actually doing.  It's a straight up insurgency strat. 

vigna wrote...

ATG never gives up. He's always there. Fighting for freedom over land and air!
Hold the line.

Most long term protests involve some ammount of this, but an "insurgency" implies firearms and violence.  We aren't going to go killing people. 

Also, I read ATG say numerous times about not targeting bioware employees and what not, quoted in the OP. I think you have been reading random comments and generalizing too much.

On a side note, Hello people