9972 réponses à ce sujet

[TurambarEA]

Jedifan421 wrote...

darkreed wrote...

Just found this..

http://www.escapistm...-Ending-Scandal

I don't think this man has played any of the Mass Effect games or has seen the ending.

Yeah reading that all I could think was 'missing the point, no, wait, missing all the many points'.

As for the topic:
1. atghunter - I see that you have been focussed by some calling your analysis all kinds of negative things. I think you've made it clear from the beginning that your opinion is just that - your opinion. Please continue to provide us with your insights as I have found them incredibly interesting to read.

2. Everyone else unhappy with the endings: STAY ON MESSAGE - it seems that every time a Bioware employee posts something, it splinters people into arguments. In my opinion, nothing posted by Jessica or the @masseffect twitter account or anyone else on staff affects my opinion that the endings remain sub-par for those myriad of reasons - plot holes, out of character decisions, choices don't matter, etc. etc. This is going to take time, let's make sure we have the stamina and staying power to see it through

[cApAc aMaRu]

Hobbs1975 wrote...

Perddyy wrote...

http://blog.bioware....012/03/21/4108/ Just noticed this on facebook.

That's definitely better than the Hudson PR statement, but it still seems like they don't get it.  They want it all to go away and believe it is a tiny minority.

Not to mention the grumpy looking photo. 

[MoSa09]

Apologies if thats a double post, but since i am till now silent observer, i thought to mention it:

http://blog.bioware....012/03/21/4108/

[Michotic]

Hobbs1975 wrote...

Perddyy wrote...

http://blog.bioware....012/03/21/4108/ Just noticed this on facebook.

That's definitely better than the Hudson PR statement, but it still seems like they don't get it.  They want it all to go away and believe it is a tiny minority.

They may or may not believe we are a tiny minority, but they want the public to think we are. I thank him for taking the time to say something, but I feel this was an attempt to downplay just how many of us are disappointed with the direction BioWare took with ME3 (and the direction it's taking in general). I dislike the sweeping generalizations he is using for people that are unhappy.

Our choices should matter. Hold the line.

[cApAc aMaRu]

TurambarEA wrote...

Jedifan421 wrote...

darkreed wrote...

Just found this..

http://www.escapistm...-Ending-Scandal

I don't think this man has played any of the Mass Effect games or has seen the ending.

Yeah reading that all I could think was 'missing the point, no, wait, missing all the many points'.

As for the topic:
1. atghunter - I see that you have been focussed by some calling your analysis all kinds of negative things. I think you've made it clear from the beginning that your opinion is just that - your opinion. Please continue to provide us with your insights as I have found them incredibly interesting to read.

2. Everyone else unhappy with the endings: STAY ON MESSAGE - it seems that every time a Bioware employee posts something, it splinters people into arguments. In my opinion, nothing posted by Jessica or the @masseffect twitter account or anyone else on staff affects my opinion that the endings remain sub-par for those myriad of reasons - plot holes, out of character decisions, choices don't matter, etc. etc. This is going to take time, let's make sure we have the stamina and staying power to see it through

In response to the Escapist article I posted this:

And what about when you advertise a product by saying it has multiple endings, and then the multiple endings are all the same. When they say your choices make a difference, and everyone gets the same ending. When they say multiplayer isn't necessary to get the 'best' ending, but.. oh wait! it is! Are artists exempt from the laws regarding false advertisement?

[Jamie9]

So... it seems we MAY be getting "content initiatives" - more in April (PAX? or later?)

If we hold this line, they will deliver, my trust in BioWare is shaken, but hopefully not broken...yet. One chance, make it count.

Our choices should matter - Hold the Line

[chkchkchk]

 Here's some hope from Ray Muzyka's comments on the ending.

Building on their research, Exec Producer Casey Hudson and the team are hard at work on a number of game content initiatives that will help answer the questions, providing more clarity for those seeking further closure to their journey. You’ll hear more on this in April.  We’re working hard to maintain the right balance between the artistic integrity of the original story while addressing the fan feedback we’ve received.

To take the optimistic reading, this could mean epilogue DLC that either:
1) Assumes current endings are "real" and simply illustrates what happens after for closure.
2) Assumes indoctrination theory is correct and we get new scenes after waking up.

[jarrettwold]

Hobbs1975 wrote...

That's definitely better than the Hudson PR statement, but it still seems like they don't get it.  They want it all to go away and believe it is a tiny minority.

How do they don't get it?

"Building on their research, Exec Producer Casey Hudson and the team are hard at work on a number of game content initiatives that will help answer the questions, providing more clarity for those seeking further closure to their journey. You’ll hear more on this in April."

That's pretty darned definitive. 

Modifié par jarrettwold, 21 mars 2012 - 03:19 .

[Skyline45]

To the OP. Why not post the vieos on the ID Theory too? Specially the new one AngryJoe made.

[taliota]

 From Ray's blog:

"Building on their research, Exec Producer Casey Hudson and the team are hard at work on a number of game content initiatives that will help answer the questions, providing more clarity for those seeking further closure to their journey. You’ll hear more on this in April.  We’re working hard to maintain the right balance between the artistic integrity of the original story while addressing the fan feedback we’ve received.  This is in addition to our existing plan to continue providing new Mass Effect content and new full games, so rest assured that your journey in the Mass Effect universe can, and will, continue."

So it sounds like they're definitely planning on something, but for all we know 'game content initiatives" could be code for  "Here's another random N7 mission and a new multiplayer map.Deal with it." They say it'll provide clarity, but tha remains to be seen... Meanwhile, sounds like the indoctrination theory has been thrown out the window.

Modifié par taliota, 21 mars 2012 - 03:21 .

[LeoSpike]

Good morning all!

Caveat: What follows is my humble opinion.

First off, it was good to see Jessica come to the thread to post. The limitations of Twitter probably make it difficult, as she said, for her to reach people en masse.

Her post contained some grievances she wanted to bring to the attention of the thread. I'm sure she wants to help resolve this issue. She says she respectfully disagrees with certain aspects of the movement, and that is good. We learn from those who have differing opinions.

I may be wrong, but we saw a couple of things from posts last night. Someone came on here and leveled accusations at ATG personally, not at the movement as a whole. Either this is a rogue who ATG has personally rubbed the wrong way or someone has targeted the inspirational figurehead on purpose. I read on a few more pages and didn't see a response when people called it out. Paranoia? Perhaps. I'm willing to admit that, but it hasn't been proven so.

I believe Jessica is sincere in her wishes to support the community, including this thread. I agree with her that she is taking her own time to give support and for that I say thank you, Jessica. Your dedication does you credit. And yes, it will take time to gather enough information to determine the next course of action.

I hope Jessica will understand that nobody is angry at her personally. Frustrated people will vent to whoever they find that is the closest link to someone who can act on their displeasure. I can empathize. A small part of my job is taking calls from people who are angry at my organization. They're not angry at me, but I represent a focus for their frustration and I get all the bile and sarcastic comments. It's draining and sometimes I want to give up. I'm there to try and help, but the angry callers don't see it that way. They think I'm just a buffer between them and someone who can actually solve their problem.

Keep this in mind, folks. Jessica is not the enemy. She can help us in some ways. Keep it civil and don't over-analyze everything she tweets. Staying on the topic under discussion can only help. Don't get distracted. Stay focused on the reason why you first came here to participate.

I thought I might be correct in my guess that this thread, due to its strength and the combined resolve of everyone here might be monitored. It's normal for a fast-growing thread to get attention. Remember...

"If you yell loud and long enough eventually someone will come over to see what all the fuss is about."

Jessica says that PR has very little input where her actions are concerned, and she might be doing something that a PR person would say is a no-no. Fair enough. I respect that and will accept her statement at face-value.

It is, however, a testament to all of you who participate here, no matter your opinion of the situation, that Jessica has said she has noticed the civil, balanced, reasoned discussion going on here, so much that she felt she needed to come here and post.

With no sarcasm and great sincerity (hard to get through in text alone): Jessica, I won't presume to speak for everyone here, but I'm honored by your presence. I know you have some limitations on how and where you can interact, but thanks for coming in. We knew we were being watched. If any of the salient points made in these 300+ pages helps you to provide information to Casey or anyone else at BioWare regarding why all of us are here, we're pleased to assist you while still asserting, strongly, that there are issues with Mass Effect 3 we feel need to be addressed. There are threads for each of the issues, and many of them are summarized here, with links to varied sources we think add validity to our opinion regarding these issues that need attention.

We would like a continued discourse with you, when time allows, to talk. Not rant, not insult, not spin anything you say to suit a particular agenda. Part of our frustration has been that there hasn't been a lot of comminucation. I think most or all of us are pleased that you came here to post.

To everyone here, including you Jessica - resolving issues like this can take a toll. Take a rest now and then, go and do something fun, then come back later and read the posts you missed, and participate. An empty community forum is a very bad thing, but one full of people who are rested and enthusiastic is always a good thing.

Jessica, it's not intended (at least by me) to abuse anyone, and we know we have to be patient. We will however watch everything with a critical eye. There were some statements made about the content of the game before release that we feel were not reflected in the end product, so I think it's natural that we are now a bit wary. Once again, just my opinion, not the opinion of the group.

See you all later on.

[MoSa09]

[quote]jarrettwold wrote...




[quote]Hobbs1975 wrote...
http://blog.bioware....012/03/21/4108/ Just noticed this on facebook.[/quote]

That's definitely better than the Hudson PR statement, but it still seems like they don't get it.  They want it all to go away and believe it is a tiny minority.

[/quote]

How do they don't get it?

"Building on their research, Exec Producer Casey Hudson and the team are hard at work on a number of game content initiatives that will help answer the questions, providing more clarity for those seeking further closure to their journey. You’ll hear more on this in April."

That's pretty darned definitive. 




[/quote]

I would say don't get your hope up. One year ago, BW has this world wide community event that turned out to a bazaar for US citizens excluding Floria and New York, which ended up in a forum stomr. A few days later, Muzyka posted on the forum, apologizing, and while defending the bazaar, promised that within one year, something awesome would happen for the rest of their community as well. That was 13 months ago, and nothing has happened since then at all. Keep holding the line, and don't get distracted by promises to look into something and more news to come someday...

[TurambarEA]

cApAc aMaRu wrote...
In response to the Escapist article I posted this:

And what about when you advertise a product by saying it has multiple endings, and then the multiple endings are all the same. When they say your choices make a difference, and everyone gets the same ending. When they say multiplayer isn't necessary to get the 'best' ending, but.. oh wait! it is! Are artists exempt from the laws regarding false advertisement?

Exactly. I just shake my head every time I read an article like that one that brushes over the main issues that most people seem to have with the game (ABC ending, choices don't matter, plot holes, etc.). The people who focus on the whole 'art' thing I've found, are very often those who haven't actually played the game. That Activision blogger - OneOfSwords - Dan Amrich - he came out and loudly proclaimed the same. After a few tweets he hastily retreated from the subject and admitted he hadn't played the game. It's disappointing when people who are ignorant of an issue feel the need to add their two cents - you wouldn't see it happen in non-game media.

[Craven1138]

http://blog.bioware....012/03/21/4108/

Revolting piece of arrogance.

[Lugaidster]

cApAc aMaRu wrote...

Perddyy wrote...

http://blog.bioware....012/03/21/4108/ Just noticed this on facebook.

How am I supposed to give them input if I can't even play it with my Shepard?

They've already said that they are working on fixing the faces issue.

[ZLurps]

Hobbs1975 wrote...

Perddyy wrote...

http://blog.bioware....012/03/21/4108/ Just noticed this on facebook.

That's definitely better than the Hudson PR statement, but it still seems like they don't get it.  They want it all to go away and believe it is a tiny minority.

I think they do. Guy isn't stupid, he knows even all the money they spend on advertising in gaming sites and magazines can only do so much. Backlash this strong may have severe consequences. Practically I mean if public opinion is that BioWare is uncool, there is very little they could do, no matter how much money they spend in advertising.

[Original_Dharq]

Psythorn wrote...

Modokun wrote...
That is absolutely fantastic, but if 25 people liked it for every 1 that didnt and was vocal about it, there would be more people that like it than who have actually played the game.

Let me break it down for you as this spanned across some posts:

I started with the question on how to translate feedback. I once read that 1 dissatisfied customer that complains represents also about 2 that are dissatisfied but do not complain. On the other hand 1 satisfied customer that speaks up represents also 10 that do not...
So looking at the biggest ending poll this would translate to 174.000 people that do not like it whereas 56.100 like it to some extend.

Then the 25 for COMPLAINING customers was brought up. So you have to revert to original numbers of the poll - not to the above my estimations.

That gives us about 1.450.000 people disliking the end. And this IS a quite a number.

But we do not now if the same 25 is true in case of satisfied customer.

Human sense would inidcate that people tend to speak up if they do not like something but not necessarily do if they are satisfied. So we do not know how to translate the numbers for "liked the end" in that poll...

Not to be an attention ****, but I mentioned a lot of this in a post yesterday... http://social.biowar.../index/10363783

Basically, your question about whether or not the 1-to-25 is true in the case of a satisfied customer is not supported by the numbers. The ratios aren't absolutes, nor should they be interpreted as such. But they are common, conventional thinking with regard to customer service practices. We don't know an exact number of satisfied to dissatisfied or vocal to silent customers. Nor would we without an exhaustive case study of Bioware and this incident which can't happen until after the incident is resolved one way or the other.

What we can look at is the current sales estimates, compare them to the number of negative responses being seen in the polls on BSN, facebook, etc., and apply commonly accepted customer service standards to them. In short, roughly 80-90% of units sold can be believed to belong to dissatisfied customers at this point given the numbers at hand. I detailed some of this in the other post.

[jarrettwold]

Craven1138 wrote...

http://blog.bioware....012/03/21/4108/

Revolting piece of arrogance.

No, it's not.  

"I believe passionately that games are an art form, and that the power of our medium flows from our audience, who are deeply involved in how the story unfolds, and who have the uncontested right to provide constructive criticism."

"but out of respect to our fans, we need to accept the criticism and feedback with humility."

In no way is that arrogant.

[Gespenst]

chkchkchk wrote...

 Here's some hope from Ray Muzyka's comments on the ending.

Building on their research, Exec Producer Casey Hudson and the team are hard at work on a number of game content initiatives that will help answer the questions, providing more clarity for those seeking further closure to their journey. You’ll hear more on this in April.  We’re working hard to maintain the right balance between the artistic integrity of the original story while addressing the fan feedback we’ve received.

To take the optimistic reading, this could mean epilogue DLC that either:
1) Assumes current endings are "real" and simply illustrates what happens after for closure.
2) Assumes indoctrination theory is correct and we get new scenes after waking up.

1)

That worries me. Again, it's not that we don't "get" it, We do get it, it was just bad.

Modifié par Gespenst, 21 mars 2012 - 03:25 .

[karlchen]

Look at this:
another "minority"-View. Just a poll of one of the biggest gaming-magazines of germany:

http://www.gamestar....id=842&pk=13537

57% are thinking the end destroys the Trilogy
another 8,5% are disappointed about the end

24.000 polls so far

Modifié par karlchen, 21 mars 2012 - 03:26 .

[LilyasAvalon]

'Our first instinct is to defend our work and point to the high ratings offered by critics – but out of respect to our fans, we need to accept the criticism and feedback with humility.'

That's... a bit of a knife to the gut to be honest. Your professional critic reviews are more important than your loyal fans?

[Jamie9]

Craven1138 wrote...

http://blog.bioware....012/03/21/4108/

Revolting piece of arrogance.

We're making some "game content initiatives"... see what that means in April, bye, ta-ra!

Seriously though, they can come out and say, "We're gonna update the ending but maintain the one that's there for artistic integrity and the players who enjoyed it". People would be satisfied, not fully until they actually see it, but more than what we have now.

[chkchkchk]

Craven1138 wrote...

http://blog.bioware....012/03/21/4108/

Revolting piece of arrogance.

This kind of crap is going to make us look bad.  You catch more flies with honey.  GET YOURSELF SOME HONEY, MAN.  Bioware's given us so much awesome stuff and we want more of it.  I'm certainly not asking Bioware for ending DLC because I hate Bioware... c'mon.

[Damate]

Morning everyone!

Just read all of the posts Jessica M. put up last night and I guess its caused a stir given some follow up responses I've read. My own response is... mixed. I do believe she had good intentions and is just trying to be honest with us -- and as open as she can be. Until the rest of the company comes to some conclusion there isn't much else she can do but continue her job, gathering data, etc. And frankly, she does make a good point in that people do tend to over analyze every little post/tweet/whatever anyone from Bioware makes these days. On the flip side: Of course it's going to happen. Of course we're going to speculate. Many of us are unhappy fans/consumers right now, with no concrete idea of what is going on behind the scenes in EA/BW -- with nothing else, we're going to speculate and critique until we're given some form of answer. Which I don't expect will come quickly and balancing passion and patience isn't easy.... but it behooves us, I believe, to try our hardest to do so.

That said, it was a little disheartening when she said (as well as I can understand it) that she doesn't agree with RetakeME3s goals (though she admires its primary methods), but she's still fully our advocate. I believe her intention was, again, honesty and also to stress that people can work together even if they disagree. But it's kind of like going to a therapist and having them tell you 'I think you're a complete nutter and your phobia of grasshoppers is dumb, but, hey, I'm going to do my job and help you!" --> which, frankly, said fictitious therapist may well feel, but they wouldn't actually come out and say it. It's counterproductive to establishing trust with the very person you are trying to help. This analogy is not meant to be taken as a literal interpretation of Jessica's intent: She didn't bash us, call us crazy or dumb. I don't think she feels that way. But the essence is still that vocalizing her disagreement makes me feel a little less confident/comfortable in approaching her as an advocate. I just think it's one of those situations where something is better left unsaid. Yes, I'm speculating. And this is only how it made me feel, personally, nothing more and nothing less.

Most importantly though: Let's just try to keep maintaining civility not just with EA/BW, but with each other. I've seen more posts popping up of people arguing with each other and flinging accusations/marginalizing. It doesn't help anything. Not everyone is going to agree with each other, but lets not try to 'one-up' each others arguments for no greater reason than 'winning' it. This whole situation isn't going to resolve itself quickly -- lets help each other remain patient and focused. Passionate, of course, but compassionately so. Compassion for each other and for the individuals who make up Bioware, whom I believe to be good people who care about the product they've worked on so hard. I may be unsatisfied with the end of that product, but I still appreciate all the work put into the game and the series as a whole.

Anyone still interested in/who hasn't heard of the N7 Patch Initiative, please check out this group!

New video from Angry Joe on the Indoctrination theory and his view of it, plus his belief that BW had 'ending' DLC coming out (and an end piece on the cons that implies as well) -- it's speculation and nothing terribly new but, hey, it has Maruader Shields and its still good media coverage that doesn't bash Retake.

And the Child's Play Drive is sitting at 76k+!  Let's see if we can't get it to 100k!

[PaulMorningstar]

To me this sounds just like normal DLC, that will explain some things - start some Starchild ideas or we will confront Harbringer or some other Reaper and the explanation will continue.

What I don't get is that it should be obvious to the creator that the ending is not artistic - it is poorly done. Once again PR monologue by Ray Muzyka addressees fanbase that thinks it sucks. And once again we are treated like children. I can compare this to painter, who makes a large smudge on his masterpiece painting and then goes around and tells everyone that this is artistic vision. And as we can see Mr. Muzyka believes to be an artist.
You cannot explain this, but you can correct it.