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[cApAc aMaRu]

Looks like Mass Effect content for other games is more important to EA than content for Mass Effect 3 itself:

http://kotaku.com/58...g-dlc-crossover

Modifié par cApAc aMaRu, 21 mars 2012 - 03:50 .

[Tirranek]

cApAc aMaRu wrote...

I don't need to ASSUME Bioware is trying to screw me, the evidence is right there on my shelf. A game I paid good money for and can't play speaks for itself.
Didn't see many points. Saw a lot of padding, and some thinly veiled criticism and confusion. I'm not happy that the executives are putting employees in this kind of position. I know how it feels to be criticised about a project. I also know that THEIR FEELINGS ARE IRRELEVANT TO THE CONTRACT OF SALES THAT PASSED BETWEEN US.
I stand by what I have said. I disagree strongly that I have twisted anyones words.
WE ARE VICTIMS.
Tell me how I am preventing the current flow of events, please, I'm interested.

Telling people not to be suspicious, in a situation that DEMANDS suspicion and scrutiny, is in and of itself suspicious. If she came in here and said "I can understand why you are picking apart everything, I promise we are doing our best" thats one thing. Telling us that we SHOULDN'T be suspicious and critical of the organisation that GOT US TO THIS POINT IN THE FIRST PLACE is LUDICROUS.

I'll tell you right now what behaviour is counter to the well being of everyone who purchased this game. ANYONE who apologises on their behalf, anyone who tells you we shouldn't boycott products, or make our voices heard, anyone who heaps praise on Bioware staff for providing anything less than what is REQUIRED.

You can bow and scrape, and hope if you like. I'll make my demands with as much restraint as I can muster for any entity that betrays me right at the finish line after 5 years.

In my opinion, comments of this sort are counter to any sort of progressive discussion. A statement of dissatisfaction is made, your voice is put out there and your actions (such as returning the game or donating to the drive) give weight to this opinion. Deconstructing what is being said to such degrees results in nothing. You don't need to prove to anyone here that there are problems. I'm sure anyone in a thread called 'EA/Bioware in Full PR Damage Control Mode' already knows what's going on, and has their opinions on the matter.

Yes, you can say that because you were mislead by pre-release material, or that the quality of what you recieved was insufficient, then you are a victim. That's not incorrect. However, defaulting to a position of absolute skepticism at anything that is said, officially or un/semi-officially, will do little to nothing other than sour the process. Yes, it is wise to be CAUTIOUS , especially when dealing with topics such as products, profits and PR, but I disagree that it DEMANDS suspicion. From what I read, she was saying she understood concerns and complaints and merely was asking that not everything said by BW is viewed as an attempt to poison you. 

Think about it this way. If such things as a CM post are being pulled apart because of such distrust, can you think how any concrete details about a possible product will be dissected? It makes sense that they will need some time to have anything worthwhile to show, especially if the situation took them by surprise.

So it's good to have an opinion, it's good to stick to it. It's good to logically respond to new information as it arises, and it's good to strengthen or alter your opinions accordingly. But approaching everything with suspicion and ill-will achieves next to nothing. It's expressing anger at a situation, rather than attempting a resolution.

On a final personal note, you're still assuming a lot about my opinions on this. You've called me an apologist like it's a fact, but have shown even less evidence to support that claim than me being critical of you.

Modifié par Tirranek, 21 mars 2012 - 03:50 .

[Gespenst]

Danilo Luis wrote...

and from someone who works at a contemporary art museum, Video Games ARE FAR FROM BEING A FORM OF ART. This is more stupid than anything else people are saying to defend the ending.

Really? Really? If I didn't believe it when Roger Ebert said it why would I believe it when you do?

[RoninTX]

man it is hard to stay a lurker. Well a shame that the "new" content wil only be known around april, by then i will already be playing Witcher2 again where the developer gives a FREE upgrade with alot of new content and extended endings.

So until bioware confess they made a mistake by making 3 the same endings with different colors and will give us the 16 different ending promised, you will not see me playing ME3.

Modifié par RoninTX, 21 mars 2012 - 03:51 .

[IchikoSakura]

shygravel wrote...

And just saw and read the blog post. Which I don't think is arrogant. He's of course going to defend the company and the people who made ME3 -- and rightfully so, guys: I for one have loved most every bit of the ME series and am only truly upset with/concerned about the ending. But the ending doesn't mean the rest of the game is without merit and it doesn't mean the team doesn't deserve praise for what they did get right. Allow them that at least, please.

Over all I feel hopeful that something is being done, that something will be offered. We'll wait and see what it is (and with the mention of April I think it's a sure bet that it'll be revealed in PAX) and in the meantime continue to hold our line.

I second that. y English is not as fluent that I could write up everything that's in my mind right now, but please understand that a CE has to defend his employees in public, if he doesn't  he is a very bad CE.  And I highly respect him for what he has written in his blog, because i love the game minus the 10 minutes in the end and I can't believe that the devs that made the blasto 6 easter egg just for fun did a bad job with the ending on pourpose. They see their work as art, which is okay with me, because that mean's they have to face artistic critisism as every artist has to. Hope that wasn't a too confusing post but I'm running out of words ...

And I will hold the line!

Modifié par IchikoSakura, 21 mars 2012 - 03:56 .

[Bachuck]

Dr. Ray Muzyka wrote...
On one hand, some of our loyal fans are passionately expressing their displeasure about how their game concluded; we care about this feedback, and we’re planning to directly address it. However, most folks appear to agree that the game as a whole is exceptional...

<snip>

I see Bioware is still playing the PR game. 

[RevenantWolf]

I love this part....

"If you are a Mass Effect fan and have input for the team – we respect your opinion and want to hear it. We’re committed to address your constructive feedback as best we can. In return, I’d ask that you help us do that by supporting what I truly believe is the best game BioWare has yet crafted."

"Sales are down!!! Buy our game and consumable packs for multiplayer!!!"

[PaulMorningstar]

Lugaidster wrote...

TurambarEA wrote...

http://blog.bioware....012/03/21/4108/

This worries me. I've heard it over and again from them: "we're listening" - so what I really just want is for someone to acknowledge what exactly our problems are with the ending. 'Closure' and 'explanation' is on the list for a lot of people but for a hellova lot of others (I'd wager most of the unhappy people), a bit of explanation and a set of epilogue text stills isn't going to make up for the fact that the relay network has blown up (killing everyone) or that most of the galaxy is stuck in the Sol system, or that the endings are all so damn similar and MOST importantly, that your choices are rendered meaningless by the ending.

Plus with this 'we're happy with what we did' that we've heard a number of times, it makes a different set of endings sans RGC and all that nonsense incredibly unlikely. Honestly, indoctrination theory is the only way I can see them writing their way out of this.

I'm just hoping against hope, that A) they ARE listening and realise that the endings problems aren't as simple as 'closure' and the option they go with in dealing with the endings isn't to mainly keep them as is.

Dude, we can't even decide between ourselves what the problems with the endings are. The fact that he said they are going to address the endings issue is a small step towards our goal (whatever that is). 

There's one thing clear in all of this (at least to me). They won't address every issue everyone has, because there are far too many. Some fans will undoubtedly be unhappy with the answer they come up with at the end. Hell some want the whole thing changed, and if they do, then those who liked it might complain. So yeah, not everyone will be happy, I just hope some of us will. 

If you are expecting that they come out and say, right now, what every complain is, you're being silly and arrogant. From the many fans right now that are part of the movement, the only thing clear is that the ending is bad, for many reasons, but that's about it. What you expect from it is not what I expect from it. Some want happy, others don't. Some want closure, others simply hate the kid.

Stay civil, be patient and hold the line.

Yes, we pretty much can decide that the last 10 minutes of the game is a problem with the ending. And it is the only thing that matters - it is up to them to correct it in a logical and fashionable conclusion. We are only trying to make any sense out of it, not to agree what we do or don't like.

[Shadowresli]

I'm interested what atghunter's view on the recent post from mr. Muzyka is??

[Danilo Luis]

This Blog is bull****. They should stop talking like they had delivered a piece of art. They didn't. This game is horrible. Not only because of the ending, but most because of it. "The critics gave us a perfect score". Yeah, because how could you just criticize Bioware, while it actually it's one of the major companies which maintain the gaming media active (with advertising and etc). This is exactly the same that happens in my state here in Brazil. The government companies are the top 1 consumers of every media company here, so we never know what they did bad. I guess you guys got my point...

[Mister Mida]

Having read Muzyka's response, I'm not that impressed. They have been figuring out how to 'adress the issues' for quite a while now. It's also kinda futile of him to wave with critics ratings that undoubtly don't address the issues with the ending or wave it away as not a big deal. In case the doc didn't notice, lots of people like most of the game save the ending. So once again, I don't get why he uses the ratings as some kind of counter argument.

But as usual I keep a wait-and-see approach.

[Nurane]

Danilo Luis wrote...

You guys from Bioware are liars! You made promises that you just didn't accomplished. Unfortunately, I live in Brazil. $60 bucks it's a huge amount of money for me. And what to say about the other $1400 I spent with a new computer? The moment I finished ME 2 I start to save money for a new PC. I preorded this crap game via origin. And I'm all but satisfied. I can't help myself but stay in this forum every single minute I'm off work. And, believe me, I'm not a sick mental bastard, or stupid, or anything (yeah, my English sucks, but it's not even my first language!).

Puff. I can't "remain civil", and I bet a lot of us that are as frustrated as I am can't either. This has gone far enough.

(P.S: when I say "Unfortunately, I live in Brazil" it's not because I don't like my country. I love it! The problem is, since I live here the only way to play ME3 in the release date is by preording it via Origin. And there is no way I can turn it back. Or else... I don't want this game anymore. Not at all.)

I believe that Origin is now accepting returns on ME3. Though I live in the states and haven't tried it myself. I'll see if I can hunt up the details.

Edit: here is link with details.
social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/355/index/10302791/1

Modifié par Nurane, 21 mars 2012 - 03:56 .

[JustinS1985]

cApAc aMaRu wrote...

Looks like Mass Effect content for other games is more important to EA than content for Mass Effect 3 itself:

http://kotaku.com/58...g-dlc-crossover

Is it bad I laughed when I saw it was for ff13-2?  It's ending didn't exactly garner a lot of positive reviews either =p

[ZLurps]

I find it amusing how he is outsourcing, or at least moving the responsibility of whatever their solution is going to be, on customers.

[GholaHalleck]

http://blog.bioware....012/03/21/4108/

My take on it is mostly a positive one. Yes, it was slathered with a back handed insulting tone, an over reliance on critics (Has any critic ever actually *finished* a game before reviewing it? Considering the time crunch, I doubt it, but that's against critics, not Bioware.) and "Art's for art's sake" coffee bar babble, there's meat in there.

They aren't ignoring us. They're working on *Something*

Now, that something might suck. That something might not be what we actually want it to be, but we've done something. The ship is starting to turn. If we remain civil, continue voicing our concerns and speaking with our money and with tact, they'll have no choice but to compromise.

To try and stay the course against this sort of feedback is madness. Losing the bulk of the playerbase who spend the most money, and put the most time into their games, will shoot them in the foot and turn them into the very thing no "Passionate" developer wants to be. Shilling shoddy products to apathetic customers.

And he may be right in the blog. The bulk of the folks who just spent 60$ probably don't mind the ending. They aren't invested in the game, they aren't going to bother with any DLC, or merch. They'll probably return the thing to a gamestop in a month and will probably check out the next ME down the line later. Tehy'll probably wonder why it was so easy to get on the day it comes out though.

Because it boils down to this, if Bioware screws this up, they will lose the consumer who spent $80 on the CE, and will readily spend another $40 in dlc over the course of the game's life, and probably another $100+ in merch. *Those* are the people that are being alienated right now. Those are the people who won't buy the next ME, the next Dragon Age, or KOTOR.

Talking down to your cash cow is never a good idea. Sours the milk.

Our choices matter. Hold the line.

[Lyne Holden]

Again, everyone "gets" the ending. There's no one out there who is confused with what happened IN story.
It was like the film broke at the end and the operator spliced the end of something else in there...

[Lugaidster]

cApAc aMaRu wrote...

I think the overwhelming thrust of demands is summed up in one word. Choice.

Yeah, as if that word can't be interpreted many different ways. I want choice... in the sense that my choices are reflected in the end on the galaxy and my friends. I don't want more endings.

Others want more endings. Others want a happy ending. Others want to see the universe evolve until they're satisfied, whatever that is.

To call him arrogant because he defends the product he made is pretty arrogant. And then he admitted that they arrived at a different conclusion than the fans and will do as much as they can to try and please.

[cApAc aMaRu]

Tirranek wrote...

cApAc aMaRu wrote...

I don't approach everything with suspicion, skepticism, and cynicism, but in this case I have been on an increasing curve of suspicion, skepticism and cynicism since Bioware were bought out by EA. So far I feel they have all been justified.

[cApAc aMaRu]

JustinS1985 wrote...

cApAc aMaRu wrote...

Looks like Mass Effect content for other games is more important to EA than content for Mass Effect 3 itself:

http://kotaku.com/58...g-dlc-crossover

Is it bad I laughed when I saw it was for ff13-2?  It's ending didn't exactly garner a lot of positive reviews either =p

The best thing for selling bad endings is cross-promotion LULZ

[mattynutz]

http://blog.bioware....012/03/21/4108/

Quite frankly, I find this rather displeasing. Muzyka is putting on his daddy pants here. Whenever people bring out their PhD's, there's going to be some "tut"ing and finger wagging. He's denigrated the value of the displeased consumers and their numbers. He's waving about the flag of the 75+ industry journal reviews they've gotten, most of whom rely on EA and Bioware advertising revenue to cover their costs, but he didn't compare them at all to what the majority of the independent reviewers have said, nor what the feedback on sites like Amazon and this one are saying.

I find this statement condescending, again, just like I found Casey Hudson's statement, and full of denial. I don't like it. I don't like how dismissive of our concerns or our numbers it is. I'm not angry about it, nor am I surprised by it. But I am disappointed. Every time a BW person opens their mouth (presses their keys?) I am less inclined to believe that further BW purchases are in my future. This really is like watching a by the numbers PR game play out.

Muzyka is addressing us like misbehaving employees who need the Ozlike company boss to come out and tell them to do what their managers tell them to. But he's not our boss. He is our service provider, and I don't think he really remembers or maybe even understands that. He thinks he's saying "kids, kids, let's all behave now" when what he needs to be saying is "SIR, I am terribly sorry that my company has failed to meet your demands. We're going to fix it." 

Modifié par mattynutz, 21 mars 2012 - 04:00 .

[1490]

People, please don't get angry and riled up by this latest response by Bioware. See it as a good thing: you are having a great enough effect on Bioware that the founder himself has chosen to comment on it. That doesn't mean you should stop discussing or holding the line. I for one politely acknowledge and am appreciative of Dr. Ray's message, though I will continue to voice my complaints and suggestions about the ending until it is actually changed.

[MagicalFish]

Lil One wrote...

Regarding "vocal minority", many people, me included, have stepped out from being silent lurkers to actually coming forth, all due to this issue. At first I thought it was just me, but then I realised (searching the net before here) that I was far from alone, and so I stepped up here.

Same here. I was always a silent lurker. Didn't like the ending of DA2, but it didn't outrage me so I would register at BSN and start posting. And I think there many of us - those who moved from "90%" to the "9%" category.

Another one here. Before I got to the ending of ME3, I had never even been on the BSN. now i've been following and responding to this and many other threads on the fourm, but still a fourm noob lol 

Hold the Line!

[Kathris89]

 So, I just finished the article from Dr. Muzyka, and I understand where he's coming from, personally I believe it's understandable that they feel somewhat hurt and surprised, I think they really didn't expect we'd feel the way we do.
 I want to be clear, I loved Mass Effect, like most here I think, it's just the end that really bothers me, it was like hitting a concrete wall after you'd been running.

It's not that we're looking for 'happily ever after', or that the ending diminishes everything else that happens, it's just that it left me with a hollow feeling inside. Don't get me wrong, I knew I wouldn't be jumping up and down when it was over, I mean, it was going to be the end of Mass Effect, the end of something that really left a mark on me, I was going to be sad, it was going to be bittersweet, but what I felt instead was something else entirely. I felt everything from betrayal to confusion, to insatisfaction. What happened to everything we did before? What happened to the characters we met and came to love? What happened to the Galaxy after we destroyed the very way they could reach each other? This is what bothered me, what I still don't understand and why I'm still here. 

I don't wish to offened anyone, and I try not to take anything personally (as hard as it sometimes is). We have to stick together, and don't treat anyone like we're enemies. We don't want that to be the impression they have of us; we're all reasonable, and if we just keep being respectful and persistent, then we may get to something. Hold the Line!

Remeber:
Be impecable with your words,
Don't take anything personally,
Don't make suppositions,
Always do the best you can
(The Four Agreements - Miguel Ruiz)

[Tirranek]

cApAc aMaRu wrote...

Tirranek wrote...

cApAc aMaRu wrote...

I don't approach everything with suspicion, skepticism, and cynicism, but in this case I have been on an increasing curve of suspicion, skepticism and cynicism since Bioware were bought out by EA. So far I feel they have all been justified.

So you've been of this opinion since late 2007?

[jonal11]

Long read but very informing, thanks for the consolidiation.