9972 réponses à ce sujet

[magikbbg]

Brilliant
1111

[cApAc aMaRu]

The irony that they are dismissive of emotional reactions to the problems with a game in which they give you a choice to punch a reporter in the face multiple times.

[Mandemon]

http://blog.bioware....012/03/21/4108/

Please atghunter, please give us analysis! More of PR talk that means nothing and everything at the same time or actually comment?

[Drasoini]

One step closer it seems. The Line holds.

[Knightsaber2010]

'Bioware' is trending on Twitter. Incoming lots-of-attention alert.

[Tirranek]

[quote]cApAc aMaRu wrote...

[quote]Tirranek wrote...


[/quote]

You didn't answer my question.

[/quote]

Try not asking questions to which you've already been given the answers.

[/quote]

If I had, I certainly wouldn't.

But I'll just say that if you have been of this opinion since that time, trying to say it's a last 10 minute betrayal from Bioware means you're contradicting yourself. It just strikes me as belligerence at this point.

[Thermorium]

Craven1138 wrote...

Bachuck wrote...

Dr. Ray Muzyka wrote...
On one hand, [color=rgb(255, 0, 0)">some ][/b][/color] are passionately expressing their displeasure about how their game concluded; we care about this feedback, and we’re planning to directly address it. However, most folks appear to agree[b] that the game as a whole is exceptional...

<snip>

I see Bioware is still playing the PR game. 

And I see big middle finger, not PR. This is the worst, the most insulting BioWare move since whole controversy started.

What he is saying is that most us indeed enjoyed playing the game, up untill the very end. He isn't saying most players liked the ending, he's just saying most player liked the gaming experience.

[cApAc aMaRu]

ZERO PUNCTUATION!

[cApAc aMaRu]

[quote]Tirranek wrote...

[quote]cApAc aMaRu wrote...

[quote]Tirranek wrote...


[/quote]

You didn't answer my question.

[/quote]

Try not asking questions to which you've already been given the answers.

[/quote]

If I had, I certainly wouldn't.

But I'll just say that if you have been of this opinion since that time, trying to say it's a last 10 minute betrayal from Bioware means you're contradicting yourself. It just strikes me as belligerence at this point.
[/quote]

Now who is reading what they want to read?

[Qctavian]

Lucypo0n wrote...

A little motivation for continuing to hold the line: http://i.imgur.com/3Qq6U.jpg

^^ Just made my day.

Continue to hold the line everyone. I speak for myself when I say this, but I am sure many would agree. I love Mass Effect. It has been an important part of my life for the past five years, and I believe this amazing trilogy deserves to have a better ending. Yet there will always be different opinions and we all have to respect that. Just continue to hold the line for as long as it takes. Rome wasn't built in a day. The best thing we can do is to express our opinions in clear, calm, and respectful ways so we can at least try to make others hear our side.

[3JIoe 3JIO]

Don't think I'll buy another bioware game after this...
DA2 and ME3 is more than enough...
Best work? BS
DA>DA2
ME>ME3 except gameplay... But damn people... listen to dialogs in ME, remember its variety. Remember what Sovereign said. And how amazing it was... And now remember godstarkid... Well? Too bad bioware no more money from me...

[Lokial]

Someone mentioned how we don't even have a list of the problems with the ending. Why don't we get that organized and down pat by whoever seems to be leading the reigns for the Retake movement?

[humes spork]

Goroxx wrote...

Speaking of PR moves, I think Dr. Muzyka's response is a fairly good one. He admits they were blindsided by the reaction, and he doesn't attempt to sideline critics with the "vocal minority" line; instead he recognizes that we are their "core fans" - a major distinction.

I am disappointed that on several occasions he bases his views on the reaction by the professional gaming press & critics. Of course, a AAA title like ME3 was going to garner positive reviews. This whole episode has been eye-opening for me in that it is becoming clear that many of the professional game critics are at best incompetent reviewers, at worst bought-and-paid for (and attack dogs for the publisher when it suits them).

All in all, I'm pleased with Dr. Muzyka's response. Core fans spend money - on DLC, on merchandise, on future franchise games. Angry "vocal minorities" don't. Core fans aren't upset because we hate the game - we're upset because we love it (and all the prior work BioWare has done).

I agree with him in that they have every right to not listen to hateful, destructive criticism. I'm so proud of the Retake movement, because in this thread and everywhere else, we strive to keep it passionate, yet civil and respectful.

Honestly, I'm surprised anyone at this point has any illusion about mainstream game journalism. It's been well-and-thoroughly captured since the days of Nintendo Power, wherein you could tell which devs and publishers were on Nintendo's good side and which ones not simply by the magazine's content but by no means the overall quality of a given game. Especially given the state of the industry as-is, where game information and review sites live and die by pre-release information (due to so much focus on the pre-order market) is entirely under the control of developers and publishers. I really have to consider anyone who considers mainstream game journalists in any way not captured by the industry itself naive or gullible, and I'm generally very charitable in my judgments.

Anyhow, moving on to Muzyka's response. It was pretty standard PR fare, acknowledge the problem while simultaneously compartmentalizing and marginalizing it. Note how he glosses over how players dissatisfied with the ending are among the most vocal proponents of the game's overall quality, and the simple fact fans would not be remotely so dissatisfied if the game itself were in any other way an inferior product, while using "some" and "most" to separate the two groups to imply ones dissatisfied with the ending are an extremely vocal minority. Also of note is how he specifically calls out destructive criticism while asking for constructive criticism, which draws the reader's attention to the destructive criticism that is ongoing (and let's face it, unavoidable) and away from the constructive criticism that is also ongoing (that is the majority of player feedback, to be frank), leaving the reader to infer the destructive criticism outweighs the constructive and that BW is not receiving enough constructive criticism.

All of this followed by "wait for April" for information on content that "clarifies" the ending. In other words, they're still bunkering to see if this controversy dies down or hurts long-term sales while working on plan B in case it doesn't.

[VigilancePress]

After having read this blog post....

...I feel that we are making progress. Throwing words like "arrogant" around does not help our cause, however. It's spiteful talk that isn't going to make the good people at BioWare any more predisposed towards appeasing us. He's clearly making a concession that we are angry at the product, on a fundamental level. That's a huge step forward. He's opening a dialogue with us.

From what I see, the message buried in here is "Wait until April so we can strategize our next move and tell you what it is." I would like to hear ATGHunter's interpretation and reaction to this. I, personally, will not stop advising my friends against buying new content or even buying the game based on my review of it. I still feel it is a fundamentally broken product.

For me, the ending of the story, as terrible and singular as it is, was just one Major issue with the game. I still feel the game as a whole is largely unsatisfying as presented from a technical standpoint. I feel the "Perfect" scores he talks about are bought and paid for, and don't accurately represent a player's perspective on the game. The combat in the game is excellent, yes, but all other aspects of the game have been marginalized or completely overlooked compared to previous iterations. To wit: No vehicle missions(yet), Exploration has been marginalized and reduced to barely a mini-game, no mini-games to break up the combat like lockpicking or hacking, and so forth. Also, a major sticking point with me is being forced to play the Multiplayer.

Fixing the ending will make me happier with the game, indeed. I would start endorsing the game's story again. But being forced to pay for any of the other elements as separate DLC places this game *below* the first game in the series in features and rewarding gameplay, from my perspective at least. Removing the 50% combat readiness modifier will go a long way towards making the gameplay feel "unbroken" at least. Dropping the price to match the list of features would have gone a long way towards making this game feel more complete, as well, though I understand the length of the game kind of compensates for the simplicity of it. I still feel this is more of a 50 dollar game than 60 or more. That's just an opinion, though.

I want BioWare to feel proud of their game, as much as I want to like it myself. I just feel that they are building a game from within a corporate culture so money-hungry that it gets in the way of being able to do their job properly. I eagerly await more specific news from them, but I understand this will take time. Until then, I will politely but firmly:

Hold the line.

[humes spork]

Lokial wrote...

Someone mentioned how we don't even have a list of the problems with the ending. Why don't we get that organized and down pat by whoever seems to be leading the reigns for the Retake movement?

There's a google doc floating around out there in the cloud called "why mass effect 3's ending makes no sense" or somesuch that is pretty much exactly that.

[Lugaidster]

joshko wrote...

Lugaidster wrote...

Danilo Luis wrote...

@Jessica Merizan
I have but one question for you. As a fan of the series, did you enjoy the ending?
This is just what bugs me, to be honest, because I really mean it when I say that ME 3 ending didn't juts screw my experience with this franchise, but video gaming in overall. And this is a shared feeling. Never before I took the job of actually engage in this kind of discussion. NEVER. But I had never spent over 1500 dollars on a product, like I did in ME 3 (I bought a new pc just to play it).

It's not a matter of opinion anymore, and you are lying when you say it is. The ending ARE bad, despite the fact of the bad writing, they didn't follow the narrative course that we expected for ME. There is an unnecessary shift right before the final scene that it's clearly a huge mistake.

I can't believe that, coming from people who actually are professionals, they can keep talking about this issue as if thinking that the ending are bad it's a matter of opinion. No, it's not. People who actually enjoy it, at least here in the community, are those who actually don't spent enough time thinking about it, or don't know the lore that well. Take a look at their posts. They don't even try to defend their point of veil.

You guys from Bioware are liars! You made promises that you just didn't accomplished. Unfortunately, I live in Brazil. $60 bucks it's a huge amount of money for me. And what to say about the other $1400 I spent with a new computer? The moment I finished ME 2 I start to save money for a new PC. I preorded this crap game via origin. And I'm all but satisfied. I can't help myself but stay in this forum every single minute I'm off work. And, believe me, I'm not a sick mental bastard, or stupid, or anything (yeah, my English sucks, but it's not even my first language!).

Puff. I can't "remain civil", and I bet a lot of us that are as frustrated as I am can't either. This has gone far enough.

(P.S: when I say "Unfortunately, I live in Brazil" it's not because I don't like my country. I love it! The problem is, since I live here the only way to play ME3 in the release date is by preording it via Origin. And there is no way I can turn it back. Or else... I don't want this game anymore. Not at all.)

So you can't, for a moment, get out of your bubble and believe that other people had different expectations than you? Many don't like the ending, but that's about it. I can't, for the love of me, believe that anyone can be so narrow-minded to actually discredit anyone for liking the end.

BTW, regarding the computer thing, it sucks that you spent that amount of money on it just to get disappointed. I really feel for you on that regard because it has happened to me before. After all, I'm a PC gamer through and through (And I'm from a poor country as well). However, you bought your computer based on speculation and expectations, you can't hold it against them. It's just wrong. The game? Sure, go nuts if you like (and by the way, you can return it through origin, just contact customer service, a friend from Chile did), but you have your way out. The PC? that's just wrong.

Cheers

If she said she didn't like it she would get fired.
Not a fair question or expectation.

Doesn't matter if she did or didn't. There are people that liked it. It's arrogant to diss them because they did. Everyone has their right to not like it, but it's completely different to assume that those that did are delusional.

[Bunzmaster]

cApAc aMaRu wrote...

ZERO PUNCTUATION!

Crap! Link doesn't show me the video on my phone

[spacefiddle]

jarrettwold wrote...

 spacefiddle 

Interesting.

1) You attack someone's broad generalizations with a broad generalization, with no supporting facts or evidence. You say he has Bioware's intent "fundamentally incorrect." Do you assert that you have a personal insight into Bioware's intent? How? What is it?

2) You present a list of quick qualifications which you load with slanted language - quality times, dissecting failures! - which again have no meat to them. They are basically "look kid, I'm an expert: trust me."

3) Even better, atg has explained - and I think many of us are already quite aware - how "listening" is really used to stall for time. Closing threads left and right is inflammatory; you'd have to be *really* incompetent to respond this way. No, you take criticism of the response, repeat it, and add "this is doing everything right!" to it. Very GoodSpeak of you.

4) You immediately deflect any potential criticism with a classic "Of course, if you disagree with me you must be calling me a drone or a plant," and equate any doubt in your dogma as being equivalent to some nutjob X-Files conspiracist.

5) You're doing everything you accuse atg of doing, except with less content.

6)You ask us to "examine his statements with a critical eye," but preemptively ridicule critical examination of yourself as being "some conspiracy thing from the X-files."

I call shenanigans.

My reason for posting this loudly, angrily and aggressively in this forum is that when people disagree, they're beaten into the ground by an angry mob. It may be a civil angry mob, but it remains an angry mob. The retake movement has been positive, constructive and honest. This particular angle of attack, in this thread, on Bioware is not.

1) Because, facts and evidence aren't needed to dismiss his broad generalizations. It's self evident. I mean really look at it. It could apply to just about anyone to anything, including dating. What he's pitching is intended to incite and inflame. What throws me is how intellectually insulting his argument is to you and everyone else on this forum.

As far as Bioware's intentions? I have spent the last week, every day (I have the time right now) going back at least a year, digging through all of their twitter accounts, posts on forums, press, press releases and have come to a variety of conclusions.

(speaking from a comp sci/psych dual major perspective, and past management experience)

They care about their jobs. They're in no way trying to "silence" the retake movement. They're certainly trying to steer the conversation to a constructive place (you can only be told "oh the ending sucks" so many times before you start asking "why do you think it sucks?". It is abundantly clear they care about each other, which is amazing when it comes to workplaces. Their leadership is receptive and supportive of their employees. They want to do the right thing by their customers. Most importantly they are actively meeting about thinking hard about this. All in all, by far not the evil ubermensch that atg is hinting at.


2) And that's exactly what atghunter is doing. Even if he did have a job performing PR ninja work, it certainly doesn't make him right, good at his job, or qualified in any manner. My assertion and claim to valid knowledge is the exact same as his.

3) No, listening means they're listening. It's two weeks after a release. They want feedback. Bioware's history is predicated on listening to feedback and re-incorporating it back into games. That's evident from their past. So they're going to need that time to digest and analyze that feedback.

4) See #3

5) I don't need the additional content. It's simply self evident.

6) And that's exactly what he did, the line is buried in his response, but he questions my intent and then makes a nice quiet allusion as to what my 'real purposes' were for posting. Ergo, begging the question.

Thanks for the response!

You're saying you feel justified in an aggressive, inflammatory stance.  You criticise atg for an inflammatory stance... do you see the cog diss here?  You've come in with a preemptive strike so you're not "buried by the mob," but you also say the Retake folks have not been acting like an angry mob.  Maybe you should have kept a cooler tone, and given everyone else a chance to do the same?

As for "self-evident," there's no such thing in a debate, is there really now?  You don't like sweeping statements because they're "obviously wrong" and you're "obviously right."  If you want people to lend credence to what you say, you'll have to do far better.

I don't know what offends you so personally about atg's analysis, but I saw nothing really inflammatory there, and certainly nothing that could be construed as a personal attack (whereas you have slid dangerously close to that territory several times).  I found it an interesting analysis of the probably shape of large corporate PR tactics.  I don't know about you, but I've had quite a bit of personal experience being within corporate structures, and there's really nothing at all far-fetched about what he posits.  Really, there isn't at all.  You have entire departments whose reason for existing is to handle this kinda stuff and try to minimize damage while other departments figure out the long-term solution.  They're not being good employees if they don't at least try to defuse things.  I would call that.... self-evident .

Lastly - Dr. Muzyka's post today
http://bit.ly/GIhhpE
and Jess' comments on metrics last night / this morning agree with you as far as listening.  I also believe they're listening.  However, that is not mutually exlusive to their trying to keep people talking about positive aspects of the game, to buy time while they listen.  Again, they'd be pretty bad at their jobs if they didn't try this.

I think you should spend less time analyzing case studies and more time in corporate meetings, and I mean that seriously.  There's good, bad, and ugly, and sometimes all at once.  At the end, it's just a bunch of people trying to decide what to do, and sometimes bad decisions are made out of what seem like solid reasons at the time.

[Tirranek]

[quote]cApAc aMaRu wrote...

[quote]Tirranek wrote...

[quote]cApAc aMaRu wrote...

[quote]Tirranek wrote...


[/quote]

You didn't answer my question.

[/quote]

Try not asking questions to which you've already been given the answers.

[/quote]

If I had, I certainly wouldn't.

But I'll just say that if you have been of this opinion since that time, trying to say it's a last 10 minute betrayal from Bioware means you're contradicting yourself. It just strikes me as belligerence at this point.
[/quote]

Now who is reading what they want to read?

[/quote]

Only what you said. I'll never buy anything from you ever again 

Modifié par Tirranek, 21 mars 2012 - 04:21 .

[Sentr0]

Mandemon wrote...

http://blog.bioware....012/03/21/4108/

Please atghunter, please give us analysis! More of PR talk that means nothing and everything at the same time or actually comment?

It's pretty clear to me, they have no intentions whatsoever of changing the ending. Their actual plan is trying to convince the world that the unsatisfied customers are only a minority (blatant lie 'course), that their product is a masterpiece and that we are a bunch of spoiled children

:wizard:

Modifié par Sentr0, 21 mars 2012 - 04:20 .

[InsaneNarwhal]

I've been following every page of this thread since it started, and I'm ashamed to say I read more negatively slanted responses since I left last night than I did positive ones.

[Apatche69]

I don't know if this has been posted already but ill leave this article here.

www.forbes.com/sites/davidthier/2012/03/21/bioware-founder-steps-into-debate-over-mass-effect-3-ending/

It looks like we might be getting some DLC in April

[Lugaidster]

VigilancePress wrote...

After having read this blog post....

...I feel that we are making progress. Throwing words like "arrogant" around does not help our cause, however. It's spiteful talk that isn't going to make the good people at BioWare any more predisposed towards appeasing us. He's clearly making a concession that we are angry at the product, on a fundamental level. That's a huge step forward. He's opening a dialogue with us.

From what I see, the message buried in here is "Wait until April so we can strategize our next move and tell you what it is." I would like to hear ATGHunter's interpretation and reaction to this. I, personally, will not stop advising my friends against buying new content or even buying the game based on my review of it. I still feel it is a fundamentally broken product.

For me, the ending of the story, as terrible and singular as it is, was just one Major issue with the game. I still feel the game as a whole is largely unsatisfying as presented from a technical standpoint. I feel the "Perfect" scores he talks about are bought and paid for, and don't accurately represent a player's perspective on the game. The combat in the game is excellent, yes, but all other aspects of the game have been marginalized or completely overlooked compared to previous iterations. To wit: No vehicle missions(yet), Exploration has been marginalized and reduced to barely a mini-game, no mini-games to break up the combat like lockpicking or hacking, and so forth. Also, a major sticking point with me is being forced to play the Multiplayer.

Fixing the ending will make me happier with the game, indeed. I would start endorsing the game's story again. But being forced to pay for any of the other elements as separate DLC places this game *below* the first game in the series in features and rewarding gameplay, from my perspective at least. Removing the 50% combat readiness modifier will go a long way towards making the gameplay feel "unbroken" at least. Dropping the price to match the list of features would have gone a long way towards making this game feel more complete, as well, though I understand the length of the game kind of compensates for the simplicity of it. I still feel this is more of a 50 dollar game than 60 or more. That's just an opinion, though.

I want BioWare to feel proud of their game, as much as I want to like it myself. I just feel that they are building a game from within a corporate culture so money-hungry that it gets in the way of being able to do their job properly. I eagerly await more specific news from them, but I understand this will take time. Until then, I will politely but firmly:

Hold the line.

I started to agree on you until you digressed. The other issues on gameplay or content for you are features for others, and that's a lot fuzzier than the ending one. Let's not get ahead of ourselves.

[Gespenst]

cApAc aMaRu wrote...

ZERO PUNCTUATION!

Huh, I expected him to be madder. I guess he's used up all his mad.

[Xivai]

cApAc aMaRu wrote...

ZERO PUNCTUATION!

Hipster is as hipster does. If everyone loves the game he generally hates it. Now that everyone is hating on the game he summons mild apathy. As close as he can come to liking something. He didn't even have any funny jokes.