9972 réponses à ce sujet

[Andur4]

Forbes is proving to be a great source of input on the situation, as is this thread. Keep holding the line!

[Darkeus]

Feixeno wrote...

I'm a little tired of reading from Bioware how they're only listening to "constructive criticism" or "Tell us what else you liked about the game?"

What the hell is constructive criticism? All criticism is constructive. I'm not going to praise Bioware for failing, if someone is upset at what some people say, too bad. The deflections need to stop.

http://www.forbes.co...ending-sort-of/

This will give you a little persepctive on "constructive criticism"

It is a really good article!

[CoyoteLovely]

Bachuck wrote...

Bioware co-founder Dr. Ray Muzyka releases a statement.

Forbes analyzes Muzyka's statement with a scintillating article.

JohnnyG provides exactly what Dr. Muzyka requested - constructive criticism.

Any new word from ATG? 

[Sarah Aran]

That most recent Forbes article is a very good reminder to everyone on both sides that being critical of someone's work isn't by definition an attack on that person.

One thing that I do find awful about Dr. Muzyka's response, and I don't see this as nitpicking, is the fact that he speaks in broad general terms about the 'destructive minority' of players dissatisfied with the ending without providing any reference to any efforts he does approve of. It leaves me wondering if he's just asking everyone to sit down and be quiet? I'm sure its not what he meant, but after patting Bioware on the back various times over the course of the statement, it would have been nice to see some recognition for the level of civility and maturity that many in the player community have shown in the past few weeks.

[Serpicos]

Great Post OP I look forward to reading more from you as this goes on.

[Xivai]

Forbes is one of the few champions we have. Glad to have them on our side.

[Sharkey1337]

Thanks for the link to that new Forbes article, really helps put some insightful light on what Ray's response truly meant.

HOLD THE LINE!

[bLark42]

G0ldmember wrote...

Phew. I finally caught up with the 50-ish threads theat were posted since last night. There is one problem though. I got a feeling that the line I'm supposed to hold is starting to slip.

Per advice of several key figures of the Retake movement, I took a break (sort of) from the constant 300-style "This is where we hold them. This is where we fight. This is WHERE THEY DIE!" warfare and did some reading about gaming history in the making. Fed up with IGN, Giantbomb, Kotaku 's such, I veered towards Forbes and sat down to read this article that was posted today:

Forbes: Did the real mass effect 3 ending go over everyones heads?

I havent really paid any attention to theories that could "fix" the atrocious ending that we all had to endure. But because Paul Tassi's articles on Forbes resounded so well with us when the rest of the gaming press was chasing us with pitch forkes, I took a chance and opened myself to what could be the mother of all plot twits. Really the Indoctrination Theory actually...fits..rather well. The creators off the original theory movie on youtube have updated their work (20 minutes, but worth the watch) and combined with the Forbes article I'm feeling the willpower to "Go to the mattresses" slip away, if this is ultimatly Bioware's grand scheme.

Now this could all still bite Bioware in the ass: cutting out this (hopefully) masterful ending and selling it as DLC in a few weeks / months (april?).  Or as Mr. Paul Tassi says:

If $15 ending DLC hits shelves in a month or two that reveals this theory as correct, it will be one of the lowest points in video game history. Had a complete ending been fashioned alongside this plot twist, Mass Effect could have been the greatest story ever told through the medium and fans would have bowed at Bioware’s feet, praising them for
the best finale they’ve ever seen. But instead, if the “true” ending really was cut to be sold later as DLC, it’s proof that maybe video games aren’t art after all. They’re just a product to be bought and sold in pieces regardless of the effect such decisions may have on the experience or the story.

Devilishly clever businesswise but unethical from an "artistic" (might as well go with it) point of view. I was gonna leave it at that, untill I saw this:

Hylndur wrote...

a post from Jarrett Lee in an ending DLC is true thread

"Hey guys, one thing I want to stress is to not make any assumptions until we are able to give you more information. Right now, anything about free vs paid is speculation only. I think most of you get that, but just want to stress it. "


may
be me just over thinking or him forgetting to type things. But it just
puts down the free vs paid argument, and not the ending DLC argument.

again, i could just be looking TOO MUCH in to it though *shrug*

Soooo...huge plot twitst. Cutting out the ending, but giving it back for free a few weeks / months after the game is released and if I read what mr Lee (marketing) might say, for free. The mind boggles.

That would be all the awesome. But if it's free than why make it a DLC at all? Why not just have it in the main game? None of this makes any sense at this point.

[InsaneNarwhal]

I don't about you guys, but I think I'll just quietly pay attention to all the news until they do say something official in April. Have fun!

[bLark42]

Xivai wrote...

Forbes is one of the few champions we have. Glad to have them on our side.

Forbes is doing a better job of covering this than any number of "Gaming Sites." 
It's always nice to see someone has our backs.

[mumwaldee369]

Wait, wait, wasn't the guy that said "hold the line" a bit of a cloaca?

[mumwaldee369]

bLark42 wrote...

Xivai wrote...

Forbes is one of the few champions we have. Glad to have them on our side.

Forbes is doing a better job of covering this than any number of "Gaming Sites." 
It's always nice to see someone has our backs.

Gaming studios probably don't buy a lot of ad time with Forbes. 

[Delpinolikespotatoes]

Lugaidster wrote...

RedTail F22 wrote...

Lugaidster wrote...

thatfilmgirl wrote...

jarrettwold wrote...

Syrellaris wrote...
I think she has a point.  We do nitpick.  We tear everything into pieces and analyze the heck out of it.  I for one am going to take her advice.  I am not paranoid by nature -- rather I tend towards optimism.  I think a little optimism is not untoward right now, yes?  

And... that's why I'm ditching out on this thread.  It's like being on the bus with Shido in High School of the Dead.   

A lot of flowery dissections using imagined or absurd PR expertise, replete with prompt applause.  Dissecting every single word down to the syllable of what they're "really saying."  The with us or against us premise and reaction in the thread.  It's just tiring.

So I'm getting off the bus.  

This. I'm all for a new/more sensical ending but I think this is getting seriously out of hand. The longer this goes on, the more hostile it's getting, even with the respecting each other.

I'm taking the same stance. This is getting outta hand.

There are always going to be people in a cause who who feel taking it to the next level is necessary. Whether thats true or not is up to them and the outcome they produce. But I hope this doesn't discourage you from the RetakeME movement. Every voice is a necessity.

Even the Civil Rights movements in the US had those who felt extreme actions were required for change. Those people had to deal with their own consequences while those who remained civil did not back down because of the others and ended up achieving what they fought for. You can still stay civil. Dont let the actions of others(with or against you) dictate what you want changed if the cause is good(which it is). Thats my opinion and I hope it helps.

(Now in no way am I saying that this movement is as large or as important as the civil rights movement. Im simply using it as an example and motivator for those who may feel doubt over where this situation may lead)


Hold The Line!!

I believe movement leaders have to take a stance on the matter. Just saying stay polite isn't saying nothing. At this point you will either lose people because they don't want to be associated with certain kind of behavior or you'll lose some fring purists because the movement isn't going as fast. I want a better ending, but not at the cost treating the company as a tool. I'm not going to objectify them to get what I want.

I think you should objectify the company. Bioware/EA isn't a person or someone you have to be nice to. They are corporations and answer to money. Of course Bioware is conformed by normal people but as an entity they don't act like that. They are moved by money and only money and that's why you have to be carefull when they talk to you as if they where your friends. They aren't, I wish they where but that's not the case.

Do you think I'm wrong? Do you think that Bioware will be more concerned about the ME plot or the ME fans than about money? Then check the "Final Hours" APP and see how budgets and benefist are over everything during the creation of a game. And this is not trying to show them as evil, it's just how things work. They need the money to live and make more games and so to money they will answer.

Think for a moment about ALL the money they are risking now: Possible boycots to future products, second-hand sellings stopping regular ones, DLC's etc. Do you really think that with all that money in risk they will care more about the story the've developed? No way.

These people wouldn't be making game if it wasn't for the profit they get. And this is not bad nor evil, this is just real.

That's why we have to be carefull about what they say or how we react. Because Bioware/EA is an object that answers only to money even if they talk through the people in those companies. Just tell them that their profits will be "OK" and they'll sleep like babies.

Holy hairy reapers, if this was real "Person talking" and not "bussines talking" they won't call us "Some core fans" they will akwoledge that we are a majority and they'll compromise to do something. Right now, they only speak as a component of Bioware.

[NSGM]

Bachuck wrote...

Darkeus wrote...

http://www.forbes.co...ending-sort-of/

This is an outside perspective of the statement Dr. Muzyka made. And I agree 100%. People can say we analyze too much and all of that but maybe you should read this article and then look at it from the article writers perspective.

We are still called a minority. It still points to the reviews. It says nothing except that the ending will be, "clarified", whatever that means. It is nice, but it is only something little....

This is a wonderful objective analysis of Ray Muzyka's statement and it's from Forbes no less.

Thank you, Darkeus for sharing this. Already added it to the OP.

Not only are you still called a minority, the PR team from Bioware continues to tie the movement with people's stereotypes of negativity when it comes to criticism. Unless this community, specifically the RME front, is actually attacking Bioware or its employees through methods other than "We think your product is flawed.", take this faux olive branch with a grain of salt as recommended.

If the GM of ME3 is unwilling to make note of the very positive aspects of this campaign (unprecendented collaboration of passionate fans, over $75,000 donated to charity, real tangible answers as to why you think the game is flawed), I  wouldn't take his promises to the bank until he delivers.

What this community should really do is continue to find ways to show the world that they are making a positive impact, not only through charity contributions, but also through polite and civil discourse which I've never seen occur in a "complaint" type thread related to a video game.

If major outlets such as Forbes start to include the charity work, civil discussion and "meeting of the minds" with their analysis of Bioware's shifty "apologies". You'll really start to show them that you're here to stay and you aren't willing to stoop to the level of those that simply say "You suck, I  want something different."

P.S. I'm not sure if they've realize it yet, but they really will have an insanely powerful tool if they can put forth the effort to satisfy this community. Not only are you guys passionite enough to motivate thousands upon thousands to speak up, but you're also motivating them to put their money and actions where their mouths are. If Bioware can't see that getting this community on their side would be immensely rewarding, then they have much larger problems than shoddy writing, their business analysts and p.r. staff just aren't doing their jobs.

P.P.S. While RM's statement definitely is a battle won of sorts when it comes to validating the complaint that Bioware has made mistakes when it comes to the game, don't take his promise of new content as gospel and end your movement. It seems to me that you are on the precipice of having your movement make real headlines, the type that Bioware simply cannot ignore, especially due to the overwhelmingly positive aspect of your charity work. If you let this front stagnate, you will end up getting less than what you want. Instead, continue promoting the positive aspects of your argument and stay civil. Show Bioware that while some might be willing to be "destructive" as RM  puts it, you as a community as steadfast in your resolve to not only be positive but to help the world while you protest for what you want from this company.

Modifié par NSGM, 21 mars 2012 - 09:50 .

[Captiosus77]

thatfilmgirl wrote...

At the end of the day, my life is not dictated by the Mass Effect 3 ending.

On this we agree wholeheartedly. I am literally just getting over a very nasty norovirus infection that made life absolutely miserable from Sunday night through today. Until today, I didn't even think about ME3, let alone the endings.

However,

I am for the retake movement. I would love an altered ending or more ending choices. I would really like what was promised to me. But this thread? I think is taking it too far. It's turning everyone paranoid and untrusting. No, you do not have to be happy with Bioware. I'm not happy with them, but I also think it's wrong to have a war council post to "study enemey movements". Because that's what this is. That's what the other threads are starting to turn into. If we're pulling comparisons to the civil rights movement now, I'm pulling a comparison with seeing a terrorist in everyone's face.

One of the reasons I support this movement is because, as gamers, we've been getting the short end of the stick for a long time. I'm an old fart, not going to try to hide that, and I remember the birth of console gaming and have seen the evolution of gaming and the deevolution of the corporate side of gaming. As consumers, we have continually lost more and more rights by such things as prohibitive DRM, attacks against the used and rental gaming markets, and questionable "professional" reviews that get treated with absolute authority.

We are treated, more and more, like pockets of endless cash rather than consumers and any attempt to stand up for our rights as consumers is dismissed, handily, by discriminating against gamers further, by trying to imply we're either children or immature, or simply not smart enough to understand the medium.

We're told to trust these "professional" reviewers, many of whom are obviously in the pocket of publishers, beholden to the success of a game due to direct profits, or, at the least, being leveraged by publishers and developers through such things a review embargos and perks for positive reviews. Meanwhile, "professional" reviews have become so skewed that anything below a 7 on a 1-10 scale is almost never seen anymore because they can say a 7 means it's not good but skew the results enough to make it still look like a worthwhile purchase.

Fighting for consumer rights, of which we have little (and more diminishes almost every Congressional cycle), is not being a "terrorist". For me, if this is what it takes to set off a real sea change in the way business is done, I'm all in. I'm tired of being pandered to and then dismissed, tired of being treated like a cash cow and then insulted, tired of companies releasing inferior products and then acting as though the consumer is a burden.

Modifié par Captiosus77, 21 mars 2012 - 09:46 .

[magica87]

Ray's words can really give the right dose of hope ...

"Building on their research, Exec Producer Casey Hudson and the team are hard at work on a number of game content initiatives that will help answer the questions, providing more clarity for those seeking further closure to their journey. You’ll hear more on this in April. We’re working hard to maintain the right balance between the artistic integrity of the original story while addressing the fan feedback we’ve received. This is in addition to our existing plan to continue providing new Mass Effect content and new full games, so rest assured that your journey in the Mass Effect universe can, and will, continue."

At this point they can not turning back!

HOLD THE LINE!

[G0ldmember]

bLark42 wrote...

That would be all the awesome. But if it's free than why make it a DLC at all? Why not just have it in the main game? None of this makes any sense at this point.

Well, unlike the "From Ashes" DLC, this DLC would make perfect sense to create AFTER the game is released, due to time constraints. If true, it wouldve indeed been a whole lot better to be in the game.

But imagine seeing the end credits, cursing like we did for the atrocious writing...see Shepard breathe after being finally freed from Reaper Indoctrination and THEN the final battle begins.

You would tell your grand children about that tale.

Modifié par G0ldmember, 21 mars 2012 - 09:43 .

[Diablos2525]

beetlebailey123 wrote...

I know this is a bit late, but I read the comment from Mr. Woo. Am I the only one who felt that Mr. Woo was being a tad bit condescending? I mean, I don't think Bioware really want that after this whole fiasco.

Why is Bioware going from "We hear you, we do care." To trying to put us down for not being happy with the product that they put out. They promised us different things, and they were not delievered. They won't admit it, now they are being hateful towards the fans that are being civil, and nice. Why?

They don't want another Dragon Age 2 fiasco, where all the "critics" gave it high scores, but all the real fans realized it sucked.

[Thargorichiban]

jimihenrix wrote...

Thargorichiban wrote...

Doug M wrote...

Apathy1989 wrote...

Thank you Dr. Ray Muzyka for the fair and honest reply. Its good to finally get a concrete reply about what Biowares intentions are towards the ending.

Ask (almost) anyone here, and we will all say that ME3 was a fantastic game until the end. No one doubts that. But its also what makes the ending so unbelievable. So close, yet so far from being perfect.

I look forward to april, until then I will continue to hold the line.

It was good to see him write, "but out of respect to our fans, we need to accept the criticism and feedback with humility."

But later on he writes, "Building on their research, Exec Producer
Casey Hudson and the team are hard at work on a number of game content
initiatives that will help answer the questions, providing more clarity
for those seeking further closure to their journey. ... We’re working hard to maintain the right balance between
the artistic integrity of the original story while addressing the fan
feedback we’ve received."

They're definitely listening to us, and despite Dr. Muzyka's response being vetted and crafted with help from the PR department, the fact that they're actually working on "initiatives" that they think will reconcile all this is a good sign.  The only thing left is whether or not BW makes something that's up to par with the quality that we've come to expect from BW and Mass Effect over the years, ME3's ending not withstanding.

This isn't anything concrete
yet. I'll believe something is being done when there is proof something
is being done.

Do any of you remember the big Mass Effect: Deception debacle?

Remember how they said future versions would be corrected? Remember what they've done so far?

Absolutely
nothing. No retailer has received any word about future versions. They
claimed to be fixing it to stop the dissenting opinion from making
itself be heard. Now that movement is dead and Bioware has no incentive
to correct their faulty product (Deception).

I wouldn't let them do the same with this movement. Learn from recent history.

Hold the line.

Dang this is so true and right on the point.

Thanks!

[red.dot.mist]

This DR. RAY MUZYKA blog post is so smug that I can't even stomach it.

You win, Bioware. You've made me not care anymore how this game ends, because I'm never buying anything made by you ever again.

[Zaknaberrnon]

wepeel_ wrote...

BigglesFlysAgain wrote...

wepeel_ wrote...

Elios wrote...

BigglesFlysAgain wrote...

Where was this posted originally?

In the we cant get the ending we want thread, they said it was posted briefly on PA, but removed so no way to confirm it.

a post like that and no one got a screen shot i cant beleave that in 50,000 years... see what i did there

Agreed. Patrick Weekes hanging both Casey Hudson and Mac Walters out to dry? I'd need some evidence to believe that.

Well somone seems to have saved it here http://pastebin.com/i2cNVDp4 but I admit it seems fishy. It seems to have been made on the 9th though? which would predate most peoples ending anger.

Hm, it seems to be posted on several places on the web now:

wwe.thq.com/go/thread/view/136799/29011581/why-mass-effect-3s-ending-failed
http://www.bluesnews...9&id=0&start=40

Interesting, but doesn't prove anything.

this seems eerily like something that could actually have happened.
we're all human beings after all, and sometimes think something is awesome,
untill someone else points out that in reality it's really lame, and points us in the right direction.

true shame that this can't really be confirmed

//------------------------------

EDIT: It appears that the above quoted text supposedly writen by a writer from BioWare has been confirmed by Chris Priestly as false http://social.biowar.../index/10399933 at least thats what this linked thread says.

//------------------------------
PS been lurking around this thread since about page 23, really amazing stuff guys.
I can't even begin to stress the similarities between my personal situation whith the ME3 ending, and tons of other
peoples'; almost exactly the same:

playing until the end, beam happens--game goes slomo.
me: ummmm, wha? this seems out of place :S I don't really like where this is going...

anderson + tim huh, redoing Saren? :S -okay i guess...
anderson: "I'm proud of you"

*tears in my eyes* (I actually saluted anderson IRL dunno if that's lame, I guess it is xD)

looks like this was pretty cool after all :')
but what about everyone else? I need to see what happenes next

then elevator.

what is this i don't even...

kid finishes talking and i am staring at the screen at a complete loss for words.
wait, what where the options again? What was that about EDi and the Geth...? Huh?
I don't get it... where is the option to say "go to hell!", gust like we told the Illusive man at the beginning of the game?

after what seems like an eternity,

i slowly walk twards the Destroy ending, partly cause thats what anderson was doing in that mini cutscene, foreshadowing thing, and partly because I know full well that Control makes no sense after my previous actions, and Synthesis.... just seems  ...wrong. This last paragraph is me thinking about myself in hindsight, because at the moment it happened, I wasn't really thinking at all, just sort of... I don't know, I felt like I was in a dream, or as if I was on autopilot, in a state of apathy.

As I saw the 'Flashbacks' of Joker, and the rest, more tears came into my eyes, tears of dissapointment, sadness and dissbelief. I could not believe what had just happened.

normandy crashes.
what?
then out of nowhere---It appears Shepard takes a breath amongst the rubble------
and that's it.

credits.

I skip them.
This can't be right.

Old Man speaking to a kid about 'The Shepard' and I ¿sort of? gather from their dialog that
wherever they are, space travel isn't possible, and is a thing of legend, or something.

again, what is this I don't even----

DING!! YOUR SHEPARD IS NOW A LEGEND BUY MORE DLC THAT WE WILL HAVE OUT SOON-
ALSO YOUR GAME RIGHT NOW IS 2 HOURS LESS THAN YOUR LAST AUTOSAVE, BECAUSE WE'RE 
BACK TO RIGHT BEFORE YOU LEFT TO ATTACK CERBERUS.


soon after, I went to bed. I couldn't believe what had just happened, that Mass Effect had ended like this.



sorry for the long post guys, I guess i get carried away

PPS
HOLD THE LINE, OUR CHOICES SHOULD MATTER.
you guys have given me hope, way more than what I was left with after finishing ME3.

thank you.

and BioWare: I still really love you guys, and I believe that you can still make this right, for everyone.

Modifié par Zaknaberrnon, 21 mars 2012 - 10:55 .

[Daira]

CoyoteLovely wrote...

Bachuck wrote...

Bioware co-founder Dr. Ray Muzyka releases a statement.

Forbes analyzes Muzyka's statement with a scintillating article.

JohnnyG provides exactly what Dr. Muzyka requested - constructive criticism.

Any new word from ATG? 

Its like ATG said. It goes by the Book.
It's sad to see that the Bossfight does not happen ingame.

And yeah "art" =>

[McAllyster]

Pls. vote on Gametrailers.com's Facebook page!

http://www.facebook....4285/?qa_ref=qd

[AcidRelic]

Really good Thread and it needs to be read by everyone.

[Takibanazaki]

Without sounding obnoxius I would have a question:

Could someone please tell me why reviewers matter?

I mean sure, they are professionals, but they aren't the consumers, who actually buy the product.
Or am I missing something here?