9972 réponses à ce sujet

[Mavaras]

Neophoenix 78 wrote...

I have been reading for around 20 pages now. I have noticed a couple of things. I would happy to discuss things I have observed. That is if anyone wants to hear it.

I'm down Neo, shoot.

[Lucas Wolfen]

Hey guys, thank you being a harbor of both sanity and compassion.

Both sides of this fight are becoming increasingly unbearable; Now, before the pitchforks come out I'd like to take a moment to explain why I think the Bioware/EA - PR people might be right about how vitriolic the movement is becoming. The BSN has been INCREDIBLY civil about this whole situation, considering that we were lied to about the endings/DLC/etc and this forum especially; but, unfortunatley I think that we may be the exception....

Taking a look around at other forums and social media, penny-arcade, the escapist, IGN, and you-tube even, you start to see what they are getting at. The amount of hate and venom on both sides of the line is getting rediculous. The thing that we have to consider is that Bioware/EA is not just looking at their official forums, they are looking EVERYWHERE so end up wading through a lot more **** than the rest of us.

I am not defending the actions they've thus far taken to resolve this conflict just making an acknowledgement that when social media is saying that we need to "CALM DOWN" they are probably not talking about the BSN.

That being said,
Hold the line!

[seitani]

Mavaras wrote...

Neophoenix 78 wrote...

I have been reading for around 20 pages now. I have noticed a couple of things. I would happy to discuss things I have observed. That is if anyone wants to hear it.

I'm down Neo, shoot.

me too

[BostonVamp]

Ender99 wrote...

No_MSG wrote...

How about a productive discussion?

What is the WORST ending the Bioware could create for Mass Effect (The current endings don't count, no one say it.)

For me, the worst ending would be a super mega happy ending. One where everyone with a name survives, even those who died. Where everything after the fact is gumdrops and lolly pops.

What do you guys think?

Well, I don't think that the ones who died earlier in the game (Thane, Mordin, Legion), should be brought back to life for a super happy ending, I do think a happy ending should be one of the many options. Think DA:O some endings were super happy, and in others the Warden died.

Okay now, worst ending, worst ending (that's not already done XD).....

The entire series of Mass Effect was nothing but a dream that some guy/girl named Shepard was having. They wake up after Harbinger shoots them with the laser and goes to get some toast for breakfast.

Before finishing the game I had heard something about a dream and I thought..."Oh, no! Not another Dallas ending where Pam dreamed the entire previously bad season and Bobby never died!"  Am I dating myself with the Dallas reference?

[G0ldmember]

Neophoenix 78 wrote...

I have been reading for around 20 pages now. I have noticed a couple of things. I would happy to discuss things I have observed. That is if anyone wants to hear it.

Go for it

[Neophoenix 78]

At this point as a group you do have to realize what the biggest enemy is right? It is yourselves. Holding the line is as strong as the weakest link. Think as if it is a phalanx. You hold the line not for yourself but for the people to your left and to your right. Infighting will be the demise of what you are trying to accomplish.

Modifié par Neophoenix 78, 22 mars 2012 - 02:24 .

[Robertrussell00]

Neophoenix 78 wrote...

I have been reading for around 20 pages now. I have noticed a couple of things. I would happy to discuss things I have observed. That is if anyone wants to hear it.

We would love to hear it, what are your thoughts?

[Neophoenix 78]

I will stagger my posts as to let others communicate.

[babelcarlota]

Hold the line

[SkaldFish]

Feixeno wrote...

I'm a little tired of reading from Bioware how they're only listening to "constructive criticism" or "Tell us what else you liked about the game?"

What the hell is constructive criticism? All criticism is constructive. I'm not going to praise Bioware for failing, if someone is upset at what some people say, too bad. The deflections need to stop.

This may have been pointed out, but I'm still trying to catch up from about 15 hours ago (which may be impossible), so...

This is a great point, and is, I think, handled very well by Erik Kain in his most recent Forbes blog post (cited several times, but here's the link).

"Oh, to be sure, there is such thing as destructive commentary. True ad hominem does exist in the wild. But the notion that artists ought only respond to constructive criticism is delirious. If games are truly art, and the teams who develop them truly artists, why should they be treated with kid’s gloves?

“'There is no need to take a 'constructive' attitude with talented artists,' writes Stephen Bond, 'if anything, they find such an attitude more offensive.'"

One thing that is not clear is exactly what Dr. Muzyka means by "constructive criticism" and "destructive commentary." If by the latter he only means ad hominem attacks that lob grenades at a person instead of critiquing the creative work, then yes, those need to stop. (I'm addressing myself here, too.) But if he is saying that the creative work itself should be immune from harsh criticism, I think that's a convenient way to exclude more direct and fundamental criticism from consideration.

For example, all of these statements would be considered valid criticism by a serious novelist.

"I think that this great novel could be made even greater with more judicious use of dialogue to advance the plot."

"Unfortunately, this otherwise impressive work was dealt a fatal blow by an absolute and unforgivable failure to consider the impact of key narrative developments during the denouement and final resolution. This reviewer closed the book wondering 'Why did the author invest so much time in careful characterization and plot development only to paste on a throwaway closing? Why betray her readers with a 1950's pulp serial ending?"

"Me? Well, I can't say I'll ever buy one of her novels again. I thought the writing was quite poor and inconsistent. My fifth-grade son can compose a better sentence than some of the work in that novel."

The novelist might not like the second and third ones because of the harsh statements, but that doesn't make them "destructive." They all focus on the creative work, not the writer. Sure, they imply the author is a poor writer, but they base it on the work produced. They don't call the writer names or say she's lazy or say she should be dropped off on a desert island and left there, or anything like that.

Mature artists know that they and their work are not one in the same. They can choose to be hurt by a negative response to their work, or they can choose to learn from it. Yes, it hurts to hear such things, but they are not personal attacks. The artist is always free to disagree, and to be honest, public reaction to creative work can be misguided or based on ignorance. None of that means it should be muzzled or rejected without consideration, though.

I've noted that there are several practicing artists (commerical artists, writers, etc.) who've posted here. They all understand this, and it's unfortunate that those who believe they're rushing to defend creative expression really don't understand the distinctions that make their protests moot. If this discussion were about a painting hanging in the Metropolitan, and angry museum patrons were demanding that it be taken down, we'd be having a completely different conversation here. Being a professional in a creative field is hard, but the rewards are significant for those who approach each day with the understanding that creativity and hubris are not compatible. The customer is not always right, but the customer is always who you are doing your work for.

Creative work does not feel pain, and to apply the same rules to criticism of art that are applied to personal attacks on people is a very dangerous precedent.* Sadly, it's one that I'm confident will be taken up by the gaming industry media as the "crise du jour" now that it's been offered up for use.

* I won't say it's a "slippery slope" because the slippery slope is a logical fallacy, but you know what I mean...

Modifié par SkaldFish, 22 mars 2012 - 03:12 .

[G0ldmember]

Lucas Wolfen wrote...

The BSN has been INCREDIBLY civil about this whole situation, considering that we were lied to about the endings/DLC/etc and this forum especially; but, unfortunatley I think that we may be the exception....

Taking a look around at other forums and social media, penny-arcade, the escapist, IGN, and you-tube even, you start to see what they are getting at. The amount of hate and venom on both sides of the line is getting rediculous. The thing that we have to consider is that Bioware/EA is not just looking at their official forums, they are looking EVERYWHERE so end up wading through a lot more **** than the rest of us.

Lol, who'd have thought. Chris Priestly would be proud at us. BSN, the harbor of sanity.

BTW, where is that sarcastic troll, I miss him. <3

[Neophoenix 78]

You are soldiers now. Bonded to each other in something you truly care about. Not everyone will make a great soldiers. But on the same note not everyone will make a great infiltrator. See where I am going with this.

[vigna]

I am cutting back as I was driving myself nuts. I'll take the glimmer of hope from the Doctor, and hope all goes well. I will still check in multiple times daily to see how the community is behaving. I can't stay on for hours upon hours like I was though. I was getting weird about the whole thing. i had to take a step back.........Now I can come back to the line, but can't stay as long.

[Vap0ur_Snake]

seitani wrote...

Mavaras wrote...

Neophoenix 78 wrote...

I have been reading for around 20 pages now. I have noticed a couple of things. I would happy to discuss things I have observed. That is if anyone wants to hear it.

I'm down Neo, shoot.

me too

Likewise (although I am  between dungeon crawling and this forum right now)

[LeoSpike]

I was looking back on some of the posts in this thread where we were engaging each other on ideas that might not have been fully explained by the choices available in the polls. Also, the endings thread put up by admin is pretty flooded. I guess that somehow Jessica and others will try and boil that thread down to a summary which they can provide to Casey hudson and the rest of the development staff, which will represent player input on possible changes and ending content.

Now that Dr. Muzyka has made his statement, how do we proceed? Do we leave it to BioWare from this point on? Do we try to engage the developer staff that are still accessible? Maybe we're all feeling a bit weary because the journey up to now has been tense (trying to get BioWare to say anything) and we don't have a concensus on our direction from here on out.

Might be something we want to discuss. Once our input goes into BioWare's conference room full of writers and managers, how are we going to continue the conversation? How can we have continued input on what they're doing once they say (hopefully) "thanks for your ideas, now we'll run with them . Leave it to us." Is that a satisfactory conclusion for us? They've got to fit all of this into a rather restricted company operating policy. How can we continue to exchange ideas once they think they've got a good summary of our concerns and suggestions?

I'm asking because the relationship is simple. Without BioWare, Mass Effect ceases to exist. Without us, our ideas and passion for the game...Mass Effect ceases to exist.

Ideas for a way forward from here?

EDIT: Oops. was writing and didn't see Neo's post. Mine is more of a discussion topic for the future.

Modifié par LeoSpike, 22 mars 2012 - 02:30 .

[Jaeral]

I'm not one for many words but i've been lurking this thread in the past days. Just wanted to state my gratitude for the passion and work put into this and i'm sure there are a ton of other people who have their eyes peeled on the events that unfold here.

Far from victory but we'll get there

Hold the Line

[Neophoenix 78]

Basically what I am saying is that when a representative from BW or EA you need to be as polite as possible. Fuel that fire and the burn just hurts more. Be polite. But be short. Be honest. But most importantly watch what you say. This goes not only to he people who work for the company but they also could be doing their own research for their own company or media etc etc. And make sure there is no splinter and infighting when they are actively present.

[Nicky 192]

 I would just like to say Its really wonderful to see so many people from all walks of life supporting each other and for the most part been kind to each other.I give everbody Gals and boys a big collective hugg while we hold the line:happy:

[Neophoenix 78]

You never know when infighting can cost you an ally. But then again we all have played ME so I guess this is just rhetoric.

Your demands have been made. I believe you have 3 main ones. Right now the goal should be to get more people to your cause, not lose any, and be civil to the company you are addressing.
This he said she said will just weaken you. Either show where you are vulnerable or cause a misinterpretation which results in support walking away. Either their infrastructure or your own..

[Hydralysk]

Lucas Wolfen wrote...

Hey guys, thank you being a harbor of both sanity and compassion.

Both sides of this fight are becoming increasingly unbearable; Now, before the pitchforks come out I'd like to take a moment to explain why I think the Bioware/EA - PR people might be right about how vitriolic the movement is becoming. The BSN has been INCREDIBLY civil about this whole situation, considering that we were lied to about the endings/DLC/etc and this forum especially; but, unfortunatley I think that we may be the exception....

Taking a look around at other forums and social media, penny-arcade, the escapist, IGN, and you-tube even, you start to see what they are getting at. The amount of hate and venom on both sides of the line is getting rediculous. The thing that we have to consider is that Bioware/EA is not just looking at their official forums, they are looking EVERYWHERE so end up wading through a lot more **** than the rest of us.

I am not defending the actions they've thus far taken to resolve this conflict just making an acknowledgement that when social media is saying that we need to "CALM DOWN" they are probably not talking about the BSN.

That being said,
Hold the line!

That's a valid point. However, regardless of whether we are the only civil people in the movement (which I doubt), the gaming media is still lumping us under the same umbrella as them. As long as they don't make that distinction we still have a right to criticize their broad generalizations. While the people THEY might be refering to might be  immature, we can't let them label us all like that. So we will respond to our detractors using reason and logic as our voice. Remember even if the way the other people are going about it is immature, the REASON they are going about it is no less valid.

In addition, the BSN is where I assume Bioware will be spending the most time looking for feedback and gauging reactions. Realistically we can do little about the forums outside of this place, but we should always make sure that we stay civil regardless.

Modifié par Hydralysk, 22 mars 2012 - 02:35 .

[panamakira]

beetlebailey123 wrote...

What the hell happened while I was gone? It seems like the whole civil stance was thrown out the window from what I read. Can someone tell me what happened?

LOL same here but it all seems to be most people upset at the Co-Founder's statement, more articles criticizing us and well people's inpatience boiling. Also maybe Jessica saying she found this thread to be ridicluous? I don't know but I kind of get where she's coming from......

[Vap0ur_Snake]

I know the in fighting could potentially destroy this movent from within which EA would love but I don't think it'll happen as long as we stay vigilant and try to defuse the problems as soon as they break out.

The problems today have been from a BW employee getting focus on herself and creating arguments (not saying that she intentionally did this and not saying she didn't either) and basically taking the passion of members and turning it into a negativity and stopping use focusing on the real issues.

I don't think it's a vast problem though, it only seems to happen when an outside source is introduced. We just need to ignore them and remember what we're fighting for. For a proper ending(s) to Mass Effect 3

HOLD THE LINE - our choices should matter.

[emperoralku]

G0ldmember wrote...

I'm damn sure Bioware/EA saw it.  They know our weak spot. The one universal weakness to men: women.

Indeed, never fails to bring out the white knights.

[Neophoenix 78]

As per BW and EA there is one fact you should remember. As of now they are on the other side. But that does not mean it will always be like that. But mistreating people can solidify their position. But you also have to know this is a PR battle. If it goes that far it could be an economic battle as well. Those are two different types of battles.

[Meteor_VII]

Gotta say I love Forbes from all of this and its possible that:

1. they are doing articles that we want to read

2. that because they don't do a much of videogame coverage that they dont have the same viewpoint as the videogame media.

But either way I find there articles the only ones besides a very few select gaming sites that I have never heard of making good articles about how not everyone should be defending bioware.