9972 réponses à ce sujet

[Dalis918]

So long as I get a Proper set of endings (and Urz to replace Kei-9... robot dog collector edition thing that does very little... maybe a ring match.... I can hope!) I will be satisfied. Until then, I see little point to patronise Bioware, EA or any other subsidiaries thereof. I was saddened when Black Isle died off. I will be saddened to see Bioware fall as well. Especially in such a manner as this. It is undignified and to be honest they owe it to themselves to ensure that if the time does come for them, then at least they will be able to face their own ending a little better than Shepard currently faces his/hers.

[wheelierdan]

yeah i thoutght we were the passionate ones, i was going through other threads, its a freakin war zone out there.

I think they made a great first step, he said we thought the game was great we were hit hard by the reaction. I felt that was very honest. The rest was less definitive but it was still a great first step. I hope they keep up more open comms in the future.

[Neophoenix 78]

One last thing before I would like some feedback from the vets in the room. The co-founder of the company you are trying to change made an official statement today. That was picked up by Forbes and other media groups. Awareness is going out. A lot of people are talking about this on my Facebook. A lot of the public think this is about we don't like your ending. I inform them it is about mistrust and broken promises. If that is the relationship I have why should I trust you with more of my money in the future. They then go oh.. well that makes sense. I did not know it was about that. But since he had to blog it and the fact that Amazon is taking back their product means they are losing money. The bad press is costing them sales. They have been wounded. They are bleeding a bit. Nothing is more ferocious than a wounded animal backed into a corner. That is what happened. Expect everything. They only way to lose besides them just saying we do not care is in your own hands.

[TabrisAbound]

From this thread. It's beautiful.

Chrishenanigans wrote...

The TL;DR abstract: For fellow
critics of Mass Effect’s ending, I’m suggesting a new approach to
the “art question” that is creating so much ill will on both sides in
favor of language intended to create constructive and effective
feedback.

First of all, I was happy to hear from Muzyka
today. I know many want to hear more, but for now, I agree with posters
pointing out that for BioWare to make big promises would be no less a
mistake than the big promises it made before the game came out. Pressure
paired with patience is a stance I personally will be sticking too,
because I know for all positive tweets and PR talk coming from BioWare,
the tough love of fans and the less compassionate scrutiny from EA is
probably making for tense office politics we can’t see.


With
that said, I’d like to offer an idea to fellow ending critics who, like
me, have found themselves frustrated and mired in the “art question.”
That is, the question began by some fantastic analyses by
posters, bloggers, writers, critics, and storytellers explaining why the
ending is “bad art.” Unfortunately, rhetorical attack often end the
discussion somewhere between “who are you to say what’s good and bad
art?” to the plain, “no, it’s your art that’s bad.”
 
And
honestly, that’s to be expected; debating art at the abstract level is
difficult and often unproductive. So instead of that, I encourage fans
and posters to try framing the ending debate with a more specific and
likely more constructive query:

“Isn’t this ending the wrong art for this story?”

It
sidesteps the high-level debate of “what’s good art?” in favor of a
much more productive—and less personal—line of discussion: “there are
all kinds of art to enjoy, but let’s make sure we match franchise with
the appropriate art.” This, I think, lends itself to specifics that are
useful not just for feedback, but also in making concrete examples with.
Two ideas based on two of the more common topics:

• Mass Effect, like other popularly consumed science-fiction/fantasy franchises (e.g., Star Wars, Harry Potter) is a creative property best known for definitive resolutions to established problems.
  Is an ending that offers speculative conclusions to a fairly abstract
  (and newly introduced) problem appropriate for a franchise never before
  interested in exploring such post-modernism?
• Is the mandatory destructive end of the mass relays and galactic community appropriate for an artistic work that broadly emphasizes themes of creation
  in all three of its games, such as in the development of personal
  relationships (your squad!), political and economic accomplishments from
  cross-species alliances (The Nomandy! Citadel Space!), and rebuilding
  of what has been lost (Krogan!).

Phrased in this way
that highlights the mismatch between the medium of the art and the
subject of the art, it’s easier to show why we disagree with the
direction BioWare went. Mass Effect 3’s ending art may be great for some other game, but not the game and games that preceded it. There’s a reason why Deathly Hallows didn’t end like Mulholland Drive, and I think we can go far in saying that the reason applies equally to games.

Thanks
for reading, everyone! If it sounds like I’m just crafting talking
points, well, there’s nothing wrong with countering PR with PR.

[Jaeral]

I like this picture when it comes to situations like these. Not sure if the image is loading.. i'm unfamiliar with forum controls^^;

Edit: Apparently it wouldn't load so URL instead
http://www.ragetroll...pg?m=1330454835

Modifié par Jaeral, 22 mars 2012 - 02:44 .

[cyrrant]

Neophoenix 78 wrote...

As per BW and EA there is one fact you should remember. As of now they are on the other side. But that does not mean it will always be like that. But mistreating people can solidify their position. But you also have to know this is a PR battle. If it goes that far it could be an economic battle as well. Those are two different types of battles.

Thanks for staggering all that stuff, don't know if you have more, but I like what you're saying.

Our Choices Should Matter - Hold the Line

[Nette]

Boceephus wrote...

If anyone hasn't seen this I'll post it here for amusement.

Here's our old friend from IGN, Entitled Colin, thrilled that the producers of Infamous 2 listened to fan complaints and changed their art to revert the protagonist to his original look.

http://ps3.ign.com/a.../1114043p1.html

Here's just one of the article's many gems

"Sucker Punch is one of Sony's most valuable developers. They are tuned-in with the PS3 faithful, and it's things like this that prove it."

The thing about the internet, dear Colin, is that it doesn't forget. Perhaps you'd like to rethink your "dangerous precedent" and "entitled gamer" videos?

Hahaha, oh man that's hilarious!

[MeldarthX]

http://da.twitch.tv/luzarius doing a live play through the ending - he doesn't know it live stream

[cyrrant]

While enjoying my beer I wandered over to Google Finance and saw that EA's stock is off another half a percent. Is this sort of jitter in a stock common market day stuff, or is it indicative of negative investor sentiment regarding the ME3 protests?

Just some idle speculation to tide myself over.

Our Choices Should Matter - Hold the Line

[kbct]

Again, thanks for creating and maintaining this thread, OP. It is by far one of the most useful on these forums. I link to it quite a bit.

[DanteTrixter]

It seems every day I google Mass Effect 3 and something had changed. It's good to see someone finally heard us. But I wish they would stop saying things like "BUT GUYZ WE WORKED REALLY HARD ON IT DONT YOU CARE ABOUT USSSSS?!?!?!?! </3"

Yes we know bioware. But you made me lose 100's of hours on a game that I grew attached to. We can throw a contest on who has the most bags under their eyes AFTER you fix our game. HOLDING THE LINE when i gotta be at work at 6am WOO!

[Michotic]

Neophoenix 78 wrote...

One last thing before I would like some feedback from the vets in the room. The co-founder of the company you are trying to change made an official statement today. That was picked up by Forbes and other media groups. Awareness is going out. A lot of people are talking about this on my Facebook. A lot of the public think this is about we don't like your ending. I inform them it is about mistrust and broken promises. If that is the relationship I have why should I trust you with more of my money in the future. They then go oh.. well that makes sense. I did not know it was about that. But since he had to blog it and the fact that Amazon is taking back their product means they are losing money. The bad press is costing them sales. They have been wounded. They are bleeding a bit. Nothing is more ferocious than a wounded animal backed into a corner. That is what happened. Expect everything. They only way to lose besides them just saying we do not care is in your own hands.

I'm not sure if I agree with thinking of EA or BioWare as a wounded animal. If they lash out, it will only look bad on them publicly. I see this more as a chess game. They have been pushed back, but if we make a bad move, we could be in hot water ourselves.

The pressure being applied here is like nothing I have seen before for a video game, and I am proud to be a part of it. If we maintain our civility and our respectful attitude, we will triumph. I think more eyes are shifting to BW and EA to see how they respond. As people like us gain more publicity, we are less and less seen as just a bunch of crazed gamers.

If we maintain that, BW and EA will have nowhere to go.

[seitani]

MeldarthX wrote...

http://da.twitch.tv/luzarius doing a live play through the ending - he doesn't know it live stream

let's see how stunned he is at the end

[MeldarthX]

http://da.twitch.tv/luzarius

Posting again - this is a live feed - guy has no spoilers - perfect time to get someone's reaction in real time

[OneWithTheAssassins]

So does anyone else think that they just said that they will just add something to the end for added closure to calm us down a bit so when they show up at Pax, they'll revial that the indoc theiory was correct all along and that it will be ready for download soon?

[BostonVamp]

Neophoenix 78 wrote...

One last thing before I would like some feedback from the vets in the room. The co-founder of the company you are trying to change made an official statement today. That was picked up by Forbes and other media groups. Awareness is going out. A lot of people are talking about this on my Facebook. A lot of the public think this is about we don't like your ending. I inform them it is about mistrust and broken promises. If that is the relationship I have why should I trust you with more of my money in the future. They then go oh.. well that makes sense. I did not know it was about that. But since he had to blog it and the fact that Amazon is taking back their product means they are losing money. The bad press is costing them sales. They have been wounded. They are bleeding a bit. Nothing is more ferocious than a wounded animal backed into a corner. That is what happened. Expect everything. They only way to lose besides them just saying we do not care is in your own hands.

I think you are absolutely spot on with your observations. While it has taken BW some time to respond, the response has been (relatively) quick and that is a small victory. However, the point of this vocal criticism is all about mistrust and broken promises. It is what we need to keep reminding others external to us and in some instance ourselves. This situation is not even remotely close to being over or even moved to the discussion / dailogue stage. It is still "collection and analysis." As consumers, we have a long way to go but we will either get satisfaction or move on. It's that simple.

Thanks for your observations!

[mattynutz]

In Jessica's defense, I implicitly invited her to address me directly. I also posted, on this page discussing BWs response to the fan response, a tweet from her twitter that I thought was important to the discussion, considering that this thread is for discussion of BW public response.

In my defense, none of my post was what I would describe a fist shaking tone or angry tone. I was as objective as I could manage. But the problem with presenting materially objectively is that when it may disagree with what a person with authority says, or when the information that is presented may not make that authority look angelic, it may actually make the presenter of that information look angry or "aggressive". But as I said before, while I am perfectly capable of aggression, this is not it. I left my battle axe at home with my basket of kittens.

Color me marginalized. I should have chose to send rude and nasty tweets instead, I guess.

I apologize to the forum that it was me and those like me that caused this result. It was not my intention.

Modifié par mattynutz, 22 mars 2012 - 02:57 .

[shephard987]

Here is an article that is not sure about our movement.
Please read and comment.
Show them reason and civility. Back your statements up with facts.

http://arstechnica.c...t-3-content.ars

Hold the Line

[Ender99]

Michotic wrote...

I'm not sure if I agree with thinking of EA or BioWare as a wounded animal. If they lash out, it will only look bad on them publicly. I see this more as a chess game. They have been pushed back, but if we make a bad move, we could be in hot water ourselves.

The pressure being applied here is like nothing I have seen before for a video game, and I am proud to be a part of it. If we maintain our civility and our respectful attitude, we will triumph. I think more eyes are shifting to BW and EA to see how they respond. As people like us gain more publicity, we are less and less seen as just a bunch of crazed gamers.

If we maintain that, BW and EA will have nowhere to go.

I agree. We've made progress, but if we don't stay united and keep the pressure on, we will lose our ground.

We are sending a message to the entire gaming industry that gamers our aslo customers, not just fans and they need to uphold what they promise.

Hold the line, for as long as it takes.

[Duality_333]

Posting again just to lend support to 'the cause'. Saw the latest statement from Ray and the BBC is reporting on it again which is good.

I think Ray's reply shows some promise, at least they're kind of willing to acknowledge a problem is there (even if it's peppered with comments about how their scores are so high).

The wording of it does worry me a bit though. It seems very focused on maintaining 'artistic direction' or whatever but I don't think that's the core of the problem and aiming to just put a few more lines of dialogue in explaining why this illogical nonsense is happening really won't help.

There's no point maintaing 'art' if it's a nonsensical messy failure. I'm not going to explain my problems with it here because it's been done so many times. Bioware, the game as a whole was amazing. Don't get so defensive when we criticise the ending.

People make mistakes and if you just fix it up we'll be satisfied for the most part. I don't know what happened in the final stages of development that caused this problem (the whole final stage past Harbinger firing seems like it was outsourced) but we just want a fix.

Tl;DR: Please stop dancing around it or trying to find ways to explain the ending that is there now. Scrap it, take Indoctrination Theory (it's damn near perfect) and run with it. Some people will still be sad Shephard didn't meet Santa and fall asleep on a pile of money and women at the end but at least the ending will make logical sense and will tie the storyline up.

[Mavaras]

mattynutz wrote...

In Jessica's defense, I implicitly invited her to address me directly. I also posted, on this page discussing BWs response to the fan response, a tweet from her twitter that I thought was important to the discussion, considering that this thread is for discussion of BW public response.

In my defense, none of my post was what I would describe a fist shaking tone or angry tone. I was as objective as I could manage. But the problem with presenting materially objectively is that when it may disagree with what a person with authority says, or when the information that is presented may not make that authority look angelic, it may actually make the presenter of that information look angry or "aggressive". But as I said before, while I am perfectly capable of aggression, this is not it. I left my battle axe at home with my basket of kittens.

Color me marginalized. I should have chose to send rude and nasty tweets instead, I guess.

I apologize to the forum that it was me and those like me that caused this result. It was not my intention.

That is how I had interpreted it. And that is where I found fault with what was being said to you; by the community and by Jessica. I feel sorry people are going to hate on you for a wrong reason. Hopefully you have a thick skin like me.

Modifié par Mavaras, 22 mars 2012 - 03:04 .

[cutegigi]

panamakira wrote...

Also maybe Jessica saying she found this thread to be ridicluous? I don't know but I kind of get where she's coming from......

well... I have been in the workforce long enough to know that its nearly impossible for me to claim that I can know, in detail, exactly what are the thing happening in all diffrent parts of my organization/company, especially top level decision stuff. Its fairly possible that there are some high level deals/direction taken that are on need to know basis and not known to the rest of employee.
dismissing that people might think this is a valid possibility and labeling it ridiculous is a little bit unwise.

[Ender99]

mattynutz wrote...

In Jessica's defense, I implicitly invited her to address me directly. I also posted, on this page discussing BWs response to the fan response, a tweet from her twitter that I thought was important to the discussion, considering that this thread is for discussion of BW public response.

In my defense, none of my post was what I would describe a fist shaking tone or angry tone. I was as objective as I could manage. But the problem with presenting materially objectively is that when it may disagree with what a person with authority says, or when the information that is presented may not make that authority look angelic, it may actually make the presenter of that information look angry or "aggressive". But as I said before, while I am perfectly capable of aggression, this is not it. I left my battle axe at home with my basket of kittens.

Color me marginalized. I should have chose to send rude and nasty tweets instead, I guess.

I apologize to the forum that it was me and those like me that caused this result. It was not my intention.

I didn't see anything particulary rude in your tweets. I would imagine that everyone in the upper levels of Bioware are getting pretty worn down about this. Which means they also tend to get sensitive.

Same thing could be said for our side, we are so worried about being viewd as "rude", "vicouse", "whiners" ect.. that we see it in each other, when it's not necessarily there.

Everyone needs to take a deep breath and relax. Remember: A house divided cannot stand. We need to stick together and stay level-headed to win this war.

Hold the line, for as long as it takes.

[Luiginius]

Comments on that arstechnica piece are pretty one sided. People disliking the ending that is. Few are even asking the right question here, "all my buddies hated it, where are the people hiding who loved it?"

[BostonVamp]

mattynutz wrote...

In Jessica's defense, I implicitly invited her to address me directly. I also posted, on this page discussing BWs response to the fan response, a tweet from her twitter that I thought was important to the discussion, considering that this thread is for discussion of BW public response.

In my defense, none of my post was what I would describe a fist shaking tone or angry tone. I was as objective as I could manage. But the problem with presenting materially objectively is that when it may disagree with what a person with authority says, or when the information that is presented may not make that authority look angelic, it may actually make the presenter of that information look angry or "aggressive". But as I said before, while I am perfectly capable of aggression, this is not it. I left my battle axe at home with my basket of kittens.

Color me marginalized. I should have chose to send rude and nasty tweets instead, I guess.

I apologize to the forum that it was me and those like me that caused this result. It was not my intention.

Water under the bridge. Shake it off. Move on. Continue to Hold the Line.