9976 réponses à ce sujet

[stargatefan1990]

darkreed wrote...

Havn't been on for a couple of days. Took a day out.

In that time, I found something kinda ME3 releated, just is not quite on subject. But anyhow..

http://penny-arcade....ss-effect-3-dlc

Give it a look, just to take your mind off things for 5 mins, and I think the song at the end credits is awesome!

Hold the line

PS: for those who just want the song  http://music.biggian...d-of-the-galaxy

Dissagree with some pointsi might be wierd but i rarely have a game that when im finished never goes back in case in point Mass effect 2 i played that the day it came out etc i bought and played every story DLC same with Dragon age origins and 2 i was planning on doing this with mass effect 3 but that ending just makes me feel it is pointless

[Darkeus]

Looks like we have some slow down in the thread. People must be working or enjoying the beautiful weather (Well, if you are in the East!)

Well, while you are all out there, remember if you find any good articles, post them here. Also, remember that EA/Bioware is in PR nightmare mode right now.

And most importantly, Hold the Line!

[thoreauscabin]

marshkoala wrote...

@Xenite Please when and where did Jessica respond???

Jessica Merizan is irrelevant.

[LdyBelial]

Yesterday --  I stood up in defense of BioWare.  I so wanted to believe in them, I really, really still do!

I do believe in remaining civil and I also believe in staying constructive.  But...

Last night I sat at my computer re-reading the message posted to BioWare's Blog by Dr. Muzyka and the more and more my brain began to hurt.

There were some glaring issues that began to surface.  

I came here to the forum and what did I see?  An overwhelming push to silence us or break us apart.  Sure, it was being perpetuated by other fans.  I am not trying to infer or say otherwise!  

But this schism was created by BioWare's insinuating message;  'We don't like dissenters and our game is awesome no matter what any of you may say -- look at the critical acclaim!  We will stand by our artistic integrity, but since some of you are too stupid to get it we'll "clarify" it for you.'  (My interpretation, nothing more!) 

I am insulted.  They claim on one hand to be listening -- but are they really?  And if they are -- who are they listening to?  It certainly isn't me and I have gone out of my way to remain constructive and civil.  

I can't speak for anyone other than myself -- and that is exactly what I am doing on my blog.

BioWare Speaks about the Ending Fiasco

I will not go silently into this good night.  I will continue this fight.  I will not keep faith in that which has abandoned me, but I will keep faith that what I am doing is just and right.  I will not let BioWare ruin the glory of the Mass Effect Series because of their need to justify their artistic integrity when their idea of art goes against the very nature of the rest of the series.  

Yes... it is hard.  Yes, I have been demoralized.  Yes, I fell down and nearly didn't get back up -- I wanted to give up last night.  But today, in the fresh hours of the morning, I realized that the choice before me was simple: if I ever wanted to be able to play any of the Mass Effect games again?  I needed to keep trying to make BioWare understand the magnitude of what they have broken.

I don't hate BioWare.  At this point, I am not even mad at them any more.  I've passed into some strange land of disconnect actually.  They aren't my enemy; I am not waging a war against them.  But they have let me down terribly...  That's not the worst of it though: They have let down the entire Mass Effect Series with their pretentious, pessimistic art. 

I want REPLAYABILITY!!!  And as of this moment in time -- the ending does not allow for it.  If BioWare only "clarifies" that ending and doesn't give us REAL CHOICES;  I cannot accept that.  

I will continue to fight for the endings our Beloved Series deserves.  I hope many of you will stand beside me in this fight – together we are stronger than we are apart. 

But -- if you feel that too many of us are out of line and you can't do that?  That's ok.  Just don't fall silent!  Raise your voice, be heard!  Don't settle for what you know isn't fair.  Don't let the Mass Effect-verse become a casualty in a war of Artistic Integrity vs. Video Gaming Interactivity.  This was never the point -- All any of us have ever truly wanted were endings befitting the established canon of the series based on players' choices.  You know... what they promised us as far back as 2009...

Lan

Modifié par LdyBelial, 22 mars 2012 - 08:25 .

[Darkeus]

thoreauscabin wrote...

marshkoala wrote...

@Xenite Please when and where did Jessica respond???

Jessica Merizan is irrelevant.

Yes, she is.  Has nothing to do with this thread.  Well, unless you count it as PR. 

[izmirtheastarach]

Darkeus wrote...

Exactly!  Indoctrination theory is sad fans looking for anything to make them feel better.  It makes sense in a way, especially when you start to warp it around in your head.  It is easy to believe because they want to believe that EA/Bioware didn't create that bad of an ending.

And if EA/Bioware makes it cannon, who is to say that they just stole the idea just to save some face?

I'm certainly not doing it because I want to believe Bioware didn't write a terrible ending. They did. All I want is some way to parse the ending in my own minds that allows me to continue playing and enjoying the game. I payed too much for it to not get something out of it.

[Darkeus]

izmirtheastarach wrote...

Darkeus wrote...

Exactly!  Indoctrination theory is sad fans looking for anything to make them feel better.  It makes sense in a way, especially when you start to warp it around in your head.  It is easy to believe because they want to believe that EA/Bioware didn't create that bad of an ending.

And if EA/Bioware makes it cannon, who is to say that they just stole the idea just to save some face?

I'm certainly not doing it because I want to believe Bioware didn't write a terrible ending. They did. All I want is some way to parse the ending in my own minds that allows me to continue playing and enjoying the game. I payed too much for it to not get something out of it.

Eh, I have other good games.  I don't need a theory to play those....  You know, good games don't really need some theory, they encourage replay by themselves. 

[wantedman dan]

musicaleCA wrote...

wantedman dan wrote...

cApAc aMaRu wrote...

I think you'll find editorial direction is EXACTLY how you paint a news organization. In this case with the right-wing sensationalism brush.

I think you'll find that you completely misinterpreted my statement. If the NEWS organization has an editorial bent, then yes, it is fair to judge them by it. However, it is completely unfair to judge the news organization by the editorial bent its OPINION programming has. The same can be said for NBC News, The New York Times, etc.

Indeed. I wasn't juding Fox News based on it's editorials. I was indeed basing my comment against their trustworthiness based on their actual news reporting. Many times I've seen their live feeds veer wildly into left-field while other more reputable news orgs like the BBC and Al Jazeera remain objective. To say nothing of the fact twisting that happens on their regular news broadcasts.

But this is all veering way, way away from what the thread is about. Can we just agree to drop this matter? If you want to discuss Fox's trustworthiness as a news source (or lack thereof), invite me to some other thread in some way, way off-topic corner of the forums.

Better yet, don't bring it up your less-than-necessary opinions if you don't want them debated. If my rebuttal is off topic, so is your initial response.

[StJonofPDX]

Looked over the statements made by Hudson and Muzyka and I think their statements give big clues to what they will be doing about the ending. Both devs made a point to single out lack of closure as fans primary concern. Notice, no higher-up at bioware has really addressed (beyond the passing) any of the other issues that the game’s ending presents. Rather, they seem to be trying to funnel all of the displeasure into a single (relatively easy to fix) aspect of the ending. Namely, that the game offers little or no closure to the events and characters connected to Shepard. 


And why wouldn’t they? This allows them to use many of the assets we know are already in the game (extended conversation for Anderson, for example) combined with simple music and text tiles that can run before or even during the credits explaining what happened after the end of the game ala DA:O. This not only has the benefit of being relatively cheap to produce (a key if they are planning to release any patch for free) but will also allow them to say: “Look, you asked for more from the ending, we gave you more. If you aren’t happy with that either there is only so much we can do.” 


Essentially, this tactic allows them to make minimal changes while taking the wind out of the sales of many angry consumers. And this is not acceptable. 


We, as the consumers, must not “take what we are given and be happy about it.” We can not allow them to shape the movement to change the ending into terms of just giving a little exposition regarding the universe. We were promise a game where our choices directly impacted the end, and they did not deliver the advertised product. For my money, until they do I will not be happy w/ any resolution that Bioware attempts to give me. 


THAT BEING SAID--I think it is very important that we be reasonable about this. The retake campaign has seen real damage done to both the mass effect brand in general and the games review scores on sites like amazon and metecritic. Now, that is not a bad thing necessarily but is important that--should bioware deliver a full fledged ending that not only gives closure, but also allows for the impact of player choice, closes the plot holes that riddle the current ending, and that does not fly in the face of the themes of the series up to that point--the retake movement then play a role in turning those scores around and generally trying to bring the series back into to high esteem it once enjoyed.


Any thoughts?

[izmirtheastarach]

Darkeus wrote...

Eh, I have other good games.  I don't need a theory to play those....  You know, good games don't really need some theory, they encourage replay by themselves. 

Not arguing with you there. That's definitely the issue. Both DA2 and ME3 have that same problem for me. The endings kill all replay value. But I enjoyed the rest of ME3 so much, I would like to find some way to play it. Heck, I may just stick with the perfectly legit solution of just turning the game off right after Anderson dies.

[LdyBelial]

StJonofPDX wrote...

Looked over the statements made by Hudson and Muzyka and I think their statements give big clues to what they will be doing about the ending. Both devs made a point to single out lack of closure as fans primary concern. Notice, no higher-up at bioware has really addressed (beyond the passing) any of the other issues that the game’s ending presents. Rather, they seem to be trying to funnel all of the displeasure into a single (relatively easy to fix) aspect of the ending. Namely, that the game offers little or no closure to the events and characters connected to Shepard. 


And why wouldn’t they? This allows them to use many of the assets we know are already in the game (extended conversation for Anderson, for example) combined with simple music and text tiles that can run before or even during the credits explaining what happened after the end of the game ala DA:O. This not only has the benefit of being relatively cheap to produce (a key if they are planning to release any patch for free) but will also allow them to say: “Look, you asked for more from the ending, we gave you more. If you aren’t happy with that either there is only so much we can do.” 


Essentially, this tactic allows them to make minimal changes while taking the wind out of the sales of many angry consumers. And this is not acceptable. 


We, as the consumers, must not “take what we are given and be happy about it.” We can not allow them to shape the movement to change the ending into terms of just giving a little exposition regarding the universe. We were promise a game where our choices directly impacted the end, and they did not deliver the advertised product. For my money, until they do I will not be happy w/ any resolution that Bioware attempts to give me. 


THAT BEING SAID--I think it is very important that we be reasonable about this. The retake campaign has seen real damage done to both the mass effect brand in general and the games review scores on sites like amazon and metecritic. Now, that is not a bad thing necessarily but is important that--should bioware deliver a full fledged ending that not only gives closure, but also allows for the impact of player choice, closes the plot holes that riddle the current ending, and that does not fly in the face of the themes of the series up to that point--the retake movement then play a role in turning those scores around and generally trying to bring the series back into to high esteem it once enjoyed.


Any thoughts?

I agree with you.  I would add to it, but you got it covered.

[Luiginius]

The scores will go up if the content is good.

[Amagoi]

LdyBelial wrote...

Yesterday --  I stood up in defense of BioWare.  I so wanted to believe in them, I really, really still do!

I do believe in remaining civil and I also believe in staying constructive.  But...

Last night I sat at my computer re-reading the message posted to BioWare's Blog by Dr. Muzyka and the more and more my brain began to hurt.

There were some glaring issues that began to surface.  

I came here to the forum and what did I see?  An overwhelming push to silence us or break us apart.  Sure, it was being perpetuated by other fans.  I am not trying to infer or say otherwise!  

But this schism was created by BioWare's insinuating message;  'We don't like dissenters and our game is awesome no matter what any of you may say -- look at the critical acclaim!  We will stand by our artistic integrity, but since some of you are too stupid to get it we'll "clarify" it for you.'  (My interpretation, nothing more!) 

I am insulted.  They claim on one hand to be listening -- but are they really?  And if they are -- who are they listening to?  It certainly isn't me and I have gone out of my way to remain constructive and civil.  

I can't speak for anyone other than myself -- and that is exactly what I am doing on my blog.

BioWare Speaks about the Ending Fiasco

My first impression was the same when I read this yesterday. However I had to go to work immediatly afterwards, so I began to wonder if my feeling of being insulted was wrong. So I went back and re-read the post, and know for sure that I feel insulted. His post contains very little in way of content.

If your team are the artists you beleive them to be, then treat them like it. Let them speak for themselves and not say that you'll only listen to polite constructive criticism. Defend your work, and acknowledge all the complaints instead of tuning some out just because they're worded strongly.

We do not want 'clarification' or an epilogue that explains the current endings. We want entirely different endings that refelct our choices, that give us what you explicitly told us we would receive before the game came out! Don't give us something different, then insult us by believing we're too stupid to figure it out on our own.

Plus critical accalaim? The critics don't purchase your games, we do. And in the past month it's become glaringly obvious that many 'professional' game reviewers have a conflict of interst with EA and Bioware, specifically with this game.

I will not go silently into this good night.  I will continue this fight.  I will not keep faith in that which has abandoned me, but I will keep faith that what I am doing is just and right.  I will not let BioWare ruin the glory of the Mass Effect Series because of their need to justify their artistic integrity when their idea of art goes against the very nature of the rest of the series.  

Yes... it is hard.  Yes, I have been demoralized.  Yes, I fell down and nearly didn't get back up -- I wanted to give up last night.  But today, in the fresh hours of the morning, I realized that the choice before me was simple: if I ever wanted to be able to play any of the Mass Effect games again?  I needed to keep trying to make BioWare understand the magnitude of what they have broken.

I don't hate BioWare.  At this point, I am not even mad at them any more.  I've passed into some strange land of disconnect actually.  They aren't my enemy; I am not waging a war against them.  But they have let me down terribly...  That's not the worst of it though: They have let down the entire Mass Effect Series with their pretentious, pessimistic art. 

Here, here! Completely second this. I have been lied to and disappointed by a studio I had great respect for. The silence and responses we've gotten amount to very little, when Bioware prides itself on interaction with fans, when we need an open dialogue with them most, they turtle up and ignore us. Only having CMs like Jessica speaking to us, on their own time.

Roger Edbert said, and this was quoted in a Forbes article, "If you have to ask what it symbolizes, it doesn't." And a very large amount of people don't understand, or like your ending. To put it likely. Many of us can't even replay the series now. Your 'artistic' ending has managed to undue 5 years of work and lovingly made product.

I want REPLAYABILITY!!!  And as of this moment in time -- the ending does not allow for it.  If BioWare only "clarifies" that ending and doesn't give us REAL CHOICES;  I cannot accept that.  

I will continue to fight for the endings our Beloved Series deserves.  I hope many of you will stand beside me in this fight – together we are stronger than we are apart. 

But -- if you feel that too many of us are out of line and you can't do that?  That's ok.  Just don't fall silent!  Raise your voice, be heard!  Don't settle for what you know isn't fair.  Don't let the Mass Effect-verse become a casualty in a war of Artistic Integrity vs. Video Gaming Interactivity.  This was never the point -- All any of us have ever truly wanted were endings befitting the established canon of the series based on players' choices.  You know... what they promised us as far back as 2009...

Lan

Well you got at least one other person standing with you. Very great post!

[Hydralysk]

StJonofPDX wrote...

Looked over the statements made by Hudson and Muzyka and I think their statements give big clues to what they will be doing about the ending. Both devs made a point to single out lack of closure as fans primary concern. Notice, no higher-up at bioware has really addressed (beyond the passing) any of the other issues that the game’s ending presents. Rather, they seem to be trying to funnel all of the displeasure into a single (relatively easy to fix) aspect of the ending. Namely, that the game offers little or no closure to the events and characters connected to Shepard. 


And why wouldn’t they? This allows them to use many of the assets we know are already in the game (extended conversation for Anderson, for example) combined with simple music and text tiles that can run before or even during the credits explaining what happened after the end of the game ala DA:O. This not only has the benefit of being relatively cheap to produce (a key if they are planning to release any patch for free) but will also allow them to say: “Look, you asked for more from the ending, we gave you more. If you aren’t happy with that either there is only so much we can do.” 


Essentially, this tactic allows them to make minimal changes while taking the wind out of the sales of many angry consumers. And this is not acceptable. 


We, as the consumers, must not “take what we are given and be happy about it.” We can not allow them to shape the movement to change the ending into terms of just giving a little exposition regarding the universe. We were promise a game where our choices directly impacted the end, and they did not deliver the advertised product. For my money, until they do I will not be happy w/ any resolution that Bioware attempts to give me. 


THAT BEING SAID--I think it is very important that we be reasonable about this. The retake campaign has seen real damage done to both the mass effect brand in general and the games review scores on sites like amazon and metecritic. Now, that is not a bad thing necessarily but is important that--should bioware deliver a full fledged ending that not only gives closure, but also allows for the impact of player choice, closes the plot holes that riddle the current ending, and that does not fly in the face of the themes of the series up to that point--the retake movement then play a role in turning those scores around and generally trying to bring the series back into to high esteem it once enjoyed.


Any thoughts?

This pretty much sums up my feelings on the matter, just attaching a DA:O style epilogue that does nothing to address the plot holes isnt going to cut it, I'll still drop bioware if they try to pull this. That would mean they weren't actually listening to us, they just want to pay lip service to try to shut us up.

That said, if Bioware does change the endings I'll definitely be onboard to give an updated Metacritic/Amazon review/score, because it'd show that Bioware actually meant what they said about valuing and listening to their fans. Praising a company like that is worth a couple minutes of effort to write an updated review (after I play the ending of course) in my mind.

[Irishkev]

LdyBelial wrote...

Yesterday --  I stood up in defense of BioWare.  I so wanted to believe in them, I really, really still do!

I do believe in remaining civil and I also believe in staying constructive.  But...

Last night I sat at my computer re-reading the message posted to BioWare's Blog by Dr. Muzyka and the more and more my brain began to hurt.

There were some glaring issues that began to surface.  

I came here to the forum and what did I see?  An overwhelming push to silence us or break us apart.  Sure, it was being perpetuated by other fans.  I am not trying to infer or say otherwise!  

But this schism was created by BioWare's insinuating message;  'We don't like dissenters and our game is awesome no matter what any of you may say -- look at the critical acclaim!  We will stand by our artistic integrity, but since some of you are too stupid to get it we'll "clarify" it for you.'  (My interpretation, nothing more!) 

I am insulted.  They claim on one hand to be listening -- but are they really?  And if they are -- who are they listening to?  It certainly isn't me and I have gone out of my way to remain constructive and civil.  


Lan

I had the exact same feeling to that. whats worse is I can see how they going to fix with a text box at the end saying what it makes these things possible.

* Sheaprd is a legend and has defeated the reapers BUY MORE DLC

Oh for the ones that don't understand the ending its about sacrfice blah blah blah

*

[Chronor]

Xenite wrote...

Jessica Merizan wrote...
I've calmed down, eaten a significant amount of candy, and talked with people about puppies and dinosaurs.

You know what the ending needs... puppies and dinosaurs, no no puppies with giant lasers ridding dinosaurs!

Make it happen...

OMG!  This reminds me.  Why couldn't they show the Krogans charging into the fray on their dinosaur mounts? 

That would have been epic!

[GamerByt3]

Utopianus wrote...

GamerByt3 wrote...

*snip*

thank you for the warm welcome! i would be happy to re-write this if you think it'll help the cause. any suggestions on what to change exactly? if no, i'll think of something lol. 

You can begin with what you liked about the game (if any, such as gameplay etc), but keep it short as you don't want BioWare to think your post is just full of praises - they may simply pat themselves on the back and move on to next post without looking at your post further.

Then, list out and succinctly explain the issues that bothered you - story not making sense, ending not fulfilling, the total lack of the "sweet" element in a supposedly "bittersweet" ending, etc etc. You should probably bullet point them for extra clarity, and organise each point so that they follow the argument, or similar-theme argument or point of the previous point, so you have a cascading list of points that are coherent to one another, thus making an easy to read, straight-to-the-point and powerful argument.

This is just a suggestion of course, what structure you choose is ultimately your choice

EDIT: reformatted

thank you very much for the suggestions! i really appreciate you taking the time to help me out.  i feel confident i can draft a coherent and well-ordered post now.
proudly holding the line with you, sir/ma'am! *salute*

[Luiginius]

Just came to mind, anyone see the bsg tv-movie "the plan". That's what it looks like when you cover plot holes after the fact.

[StJonofPDX]

Luiginius wrote...

The scores will go up if the content is good.

I dont know if this was in reply to my post, but assuming it is I disagree a bit.


Sites like metacritic and amazon were bombed with hundreds of bad reviews--far more than would be moved by a good game to simply go and score it. If we expect bioware to make these changes to the ending, we have to say that (assuming the content addressees all our concerns) we will work to reverse the damage. This is a give and take and if we are not willing to deal with them then what motivates Bioware to give any of us What we want?

[RedTail F22]

OMG Thank you Forbes fo proving just how IGNorant Colin is.

[Luiginius]

Staying in business in the longterm?

[MattFini]

StJonofPDX wrote...

Looked over the statements made by Hudson and Muzyka and I think their statements give big clues to what they will be doing about the ending. Both devs made a point to single out lack of closure as fans primary concern. Notice, no higher-up at bioware has really addressed (beyond the passing) any of the other issues that the game’s ending presents. Rather, they seem to be trying to funnel all of the displeasure into a single (relatively easy to fix) aspect of the ending. Namely, that the game offers little or no closure to the events and characters connected to Shepard. 


And why wouldn’t they? This allows them to use many of the assets we know are already in the game (extended conversation for Anderson, for example) combined with simple music and text tiles that can run before or even during the credits explaining what happened after the end of the game ala DA:O. This not only has the benefit of being relatively cheap to produce (a key if they are planning to release any patch for free) but will also allow them to say: “Look, you asked for more from the ending, we gave you more. If you aren’t happy with that either there is only so much we can do.” 


Essentially, this tactic allows them to make minimal changes while taking the wind out of the sales of many angry consumers. And this is not acceptable. 


We, as the consumers, must not “take what we are given and be happy about it.” We can not allow them to shape the movement to change the ending into terms of just giving a little exposition regarding the universe. We were promise a game where our choices directly impacted the end, and they did not deliver the advertised product. For my money, until they do I will not be happy w/ any resolution that Bioware attempts to give me. 


THAT BEING SAID--I think it is very important that we be reasonable about this. The retake campaign has seen real damage done to both the mass effect brand in general and the games review scores on sites like amazon and metecritic. Now, that is not a bad thing necessarily but is important that--should bioware deliver a full fledged ending that not only gives closure, but also allows for the impact of player choice, closes the plot holes that riddle the current ending, and that does not fly in the face of the themes of the series up to that point--the retake movement then play a role in turning those scores around and generally trying to bring the series back into to high esteem it once enjoyed.


Any thoughts?

They can certainly try attaching a few epilogues to their trainwreck, but good luck to them if they think they'll be able to sell very much of that.

I will not buy a stupid little "closure DLC" or anything else that isn't a proper ending fix.

[Comguard2]

Don't worry about the hold the line movement. Even if it should get a little bit quiet, this would just be for a short amount of time.

Imagine they will fail to give a pleasing statement at PAX - the whole rage will start again.

And, as I pointed it out earlier, they will get into trouble with Legendary Pictures. Don't know if I would want to make a movie about the "great game with the horrible ending".

Too bad the movie would be a bit more expensive than the game. So either EA invests 1-3 Millions for a good DLC (for this amount of money I'm sure you can expect something impressive) and secure the possible 100-150 Mio. Investion in the movie.

Or don't do nothing. In this case I expect that the movie will be cancelled pretty soon and Bioware wants to point at us being the bad guys.

In the case they don't please us and still do the movie - that would be financial suicide. Movies that need to please their fans at Comic-Cons and similar events are doomed if they fail to please their hardcore fanbase. Other companies force their actors to tell that "XYZ" was their favourite comic book character even before he was born. We just demand a good ending.

[LdyBelial]

Thank you Amagoi and Irishkev!  Glad to have you both standing with me!!

RedTail F22 wrote...

OMG Thank you Forbes fo proving just how IGNorant Colin is.

Yes, I find that amusing too! 

Modifié par LdyBelial, 22 mars 2012 - 08:52 .

[dbl219]

Still holding the line. To the top with you!