9972 réponses à ce sujet

[Turtlicious]

I'm Kroganlicious

and this is my favorite thread on the citadel.

[Amagoi]

Copperwings wrote...

It's such a shame we can't sticky our own posts >.<

I agree, this thread deserves it. It gives some great insight into how PR works, which is arguably what we have to fight with for the most part. Thanks again to atqhunter and Keldor, the posts help out a lot and give me and others more an idea of how to structure our posts and make our voices heard in a more effective manner.

[marshkoala]

@KeldorKatarn

OMG!!! Yes!!!

That's it exactly! I just thought we could talk to Bioware and they would respond to us not engage in a PR attack

[Darkeus]

atghunter wrote...

Good Morning (for me), Afternoon, or Evening All,
 
Some absolutely amazing posts an insights from folks overnight! And as always, thank you for the complimentary remarks. KeldorKatarn had some great thoughts on this from his perspective which overlap in one aspect or another with so many things PR teams practice. I’m probably going to end up spending a couple hours this afternoon wrapping my head around the philosophical parallels and constructs of his post! 
 
Just one quick thought and then I’m off to answer all the great e-mails I've received. I was happy to see Mr. Jarrett stop by last night. He came by to try and do a bit of “humanizing” (and yes, that is something every PR team uses extensively) of Bioware. A completely fair deflecting maneuver btw. I readily acknowledge there are probably some great people at Bioware, who love their work, do great things and may even be quite personable (please see my remarks yesterday re. Ms. Merizan). It’s genuine to that degree in his message, but the strategic goal is to try and merge the “corporation” which is pretty easy to be angry at, and the individuals who they want you to feel empathy for. It’s putting a face on your corporate entity much like many food brands have a face on their products.
 
So how do you resolve empathy for overworked and disappointed employees vs. a company you feel delivered an inferior/defective product? Simple. You can do both. Feel empathy for the workers, but continue to demand accountability from the corporation. As I’ve mentioned previously, at this point, this isn’t a struggle with the writers. And in the end, to be blunt, those hard-working, personable emplotees will do what the corporate entity ultimately decides. If EA instructs the writers and developers to write an ending with pink ponies and chocolate bars falling from the sky, that’s what will happen.
 
Just remember the bottom line is, well, the bottom line for EA. Please continue to remain civil and express your views (no matter which side of this debate you favor). Since I can’t see the other side of the chessboard, no prognostications on where the game stands, but it is pretty clear the pieces are moving.
 
Cheers!

Thanks for coming in and setting this thread straight again.  People totally waffled when Mr. Lee posted here.

Also, thank you KeldorKatarn for showing a different persepctive on the situation as well.

Modifié par Darkeus, 17 mars 2012 - 05:16 .

[Zebra3]

Whatever happens, this thread has been absolutely fascinating to watch. I, for one, wasn't fooled at all by Casey's post yesterday. He "told us much, but said little," or something like that.

I'm sure Bioware is full of wonderful people. However, that's not going to distract me from the real issue. As a consumer, I feel cheated out of the final product.

This isn't personal. It's just business.

[Harbinger of Fun]

Bump for Jesus.

[Hanabii]

My name is Commander Shepard and this is my favorate post on the BSN!

[Lady_Aescwyn]

Damn.

I'm a little speechless right now... I'm sure that after I post this reply, a thousand more things will pop into my head that I want to say. For now, suffice it to say that as of last night I was tired and disheartened and feeling a bit pessimistic about this movement of ours. After following it since day one in every spare moment of my time and throwing my full weight in with all of the Retake Mass Effect movements I can find I was just... tired. After all, that tiny voice in my head was saying, how can a small group of fans win out against the corporate machine.

But then I remembered; NEVER think that a small group of dedicated people can't change the world. And we're not exactly a small group, we grow stronger every day as more people finish the game and as our non-gamer friends become enraged on our behalf.

I absolutely love this thread. I knew that PR guys were sneaky masterminds and tacticians, but this insight into their workings has been not only interesting, but inspiring. With this "intel" on our "enemy" in this "war" I now stand more determined and hopeful than ever. Thank you so much for that.

We. Will. Win. This.

Hold the line.

Modifié par Lady_Aescwyn, 17 mars 2012 - 05:38 .

[Dusty Boy T]

Silveralen wrote...

JPLazyNinja wrote...

Agree completely- this is more of a battle of attrition between EA and the fans at this point.

Lets not give them an inch.

Ok wait. Stop right there. Do not blame this all on EA. EA is a huge company. They do not oversee every aspect of gmae development, and I cna't iamgine they would demand a massive overall to the ending for no apparent reason. Even if they for some reason did, despite the fact these endings remove almsot any chance for a sequal, making them very unlike an average EA choice, Bioware apaprently caved, and in no way has anyone from the company tried to reach out to fnas and explain this isn't what they wanted.

No likes EA, but shifting all of blame on to them is unfair. More than likely they had nothing to do with this. Blame the first day DLC on them if you must, that sounds alot like EA, but a bunch of endings which completely close off a sereis and give little hope for a sequal?  That doesn't sound like them at all, they'd want the same ending as fans, one that ddraws from your descions throughout the game, in most cases leaving room for more ME games.

TL;DR Blaming this on EA makes no sense. The ending was a Bioware screw up, don't let your loyalty blind you to that.

If it wasn't for EA forcing multiplayer down Bioware's throat, they may have had more time to think the singleplayer experience through. I'm sure Bioware was already feeling the heat from EA for pushing the deadline ahead once, and if given a chance, they would have pushed the deadline ahead even further.

EA is far from innocent. They're probably the biggest villain we've got in this entire debacle.

[beccathelion]

Hanabii wrote...

My name is Commander Shepard and this is my favorate post on the BSN!

This.

[LoboFH]

KeldorKatarn wrote...

 I wanted to say one more thing to all the people involved in ME3:
I can understand how you might feel right now. I imagine some are feeling hurt, some might actually agree with us, sitting at home, telling their wifes/husbands "I could have told'em this would happen".Most of you however probably feel very disapointed. When you release something like this, a work of art that you've spent the best time of your life on (let's face it, working on a title like this is evey game developer's dream), you dream about getting only the best of feedback. People loving all the good stuff, all the little details you worked so hard into getting in the game.
Now all people seem to talk about is this fu**ing ending. Nobody seems to care about all the work you put into. About the little cameo you dreamed up. About that one poster that was such a great easter egg that was YOUR idea. About that piece of dialogue you loved SOO much and were looking forward to reading reactions about.
Well guys and gals you know what? People DID see all that, and people LOVE you guys for it. They truly do. And trust me. Most people would love to tell you all about those great details and how much they enjoyed them. And I'm actually glad you opened a "damage control" thread in which people can tell you about that.I'm pretty sure that thread was not just about damage control on the fan base, but also about finally getting some positive stuff back so your own employees can finally read some of the nice stuff again.
But look at it this way... You are getting an emotional reaction here like this industry has hardly ever seen before. Certainly not for a unique IP like Mass Effect. This can usually only be expected for something that has a major IP behind it like Star Wars or Trek or whatever. So what you have done here is create a new Star Wars. One that people are so passionate about, one that they are loving SO much that they just don't want to see it die like this.People are not just disappointed so much because they didn't like the end. They are actually disappointed because they know you may have destroyed something here without planning to, that you may have damaged something that is really, really unique and precious. They WANT this to be great and the new Star Wars. They want to be able to tell their kids about this like their parents are nowadays talking about the original Star Wars. This is their favorite world; they have been there from the start. THAT's what this is about. They are actually on YOUR side.They just want to make sure that all the work and love you put into this doesn't go down the toilet, just because of 5 freaking minutes that were messed up just because of some bad judgment.
You know, had George Lucas messed up Return of the Jedi, nobody would talk about him now. You know why? If that movie hadn't sold, there wouldn't have been any way to fix it. Sure he makes a lot of tiny changes these days to polish it up but back then... no way to do that. YOU can. You have the chance to say "ok, those 5 minutes were maybe not such a great idea. Let's add something to it. Let's puck up this indoctrination idea or come up with some other creative idea and actually fix this and make sure it stays what is already is: The best damn piece of SciFi gaming out there. Period.
All these fans are really behind you. They want this bird to fly. They just want to make sure it doesn't get hit by a bus on its first solo flight.
So to repeat the message: We love what you have done here guys. We love ALL those great little moments and we are 100% aware of them and we'd LOVE to sit across a table or net-line with you guys someday and talk about how wonderful your ideas were, no matter how small they were. because those little ideas, that's what great games are all about. All we want is that 5 freaking minutes that apparently just weren't meant to fly, prevent all that from happening and turn a great game that should be remembered for all the live being put into it into something that turned out to be a major fan base disaster. We don't want that, you don't want that, so let's get this PR crap out of the way and let's work together on fixing this.
You always told us how Mass Effect is really a game that is built both by Bioware AND the players. So let's turn this PR message into a real effort to make things right!

Exactly my feelings, I was enjoying ME3 like nothing in my life, it got its underveloped stuff, yeah, but it didn't matter to me in the big picture, I laughed, I cried, I empathized with my people...and then the ending ruined all the good vibes of three games, it made them worthless. We need an ending, sad or happy, but an ending, with science, not magic-freak solutions, with our decisions of three games in the picture.

It could be solved, if BioWare guys see it with our eyes thay are going to understand why people is so upset.

[AlekzanderZ]

its funny, this thread make me read/analyse bioware intervention not the same way anymore!

Thx great thread.

[Soma.E-Pro]

SO insightful. Never give in, never surrender.

[RazorrX]

I wonder what PR address we can expect Casey to regurgitate on monday if we all held the line during this smoke and mirrors weekend?

Probably something along the lines of "Hey here are even more really great reviews of us and we are still listening to the small group of really passionate fans who want some slight changes to the endings. We hear you, we are listening, OH and buy "Take Back Omega" DLC for even MORE Shepard!"

[Noatz]

Silveralen wrote...

JPLazyNinja wrote...

Agree completely- this is more of a battle of attrition between EA and the fans at this point.

Lets not give them an inch.

Ok wait. Stop right there. Do not blame this all on EA. EA is a huge company. They do not oversee every aspect of gmae development, and I cna't iamgine they would demand a massive overall to the ending for no apparent reason. Even if they for some reason did, despite the fact these endings remove almsot any chance for a sequal, making them very unlike an average EA choice, Bioware apaprently caved, and in no way has anyone from the company tried to reach out to fnas and explain this isn't what they wanted.

No likes EA, but shifting all of blame on to them is unfair. More than likely they had nothing to do with this. Blame the first day DLC on them if you must, that sounds alot like EA, but a bunch of endings which completely close off a sereis and give little hope for a sequal?  That doesn't sound like them at all, they'd want the same ending as fans, one that ddraws from your descions throughout the game, in most cases leaving room for more ME games.

TL;DR Blaming this on EA makes no sense. The ending was a Bioware screw up, don't let your loyalty blind you to that.

It was a Bioware screwup but make no mistake, its EA's PR teams and corporate interests that are directing their responses right now.

[Star]

Kudos to the OP and atghunter - I have so appreciated reading the analysis in this thread.

Like others on this thread I recognize the importance of not casting stones or considering BW and its employees as either good or evil. It is a company with many hardworking, caring individuals. 

At the same time I recognize that BW has many a number of promises about its games - ME in particular - and has frequently made promises that were later ignored or justified (I loved one of BW's early justifications of the ending mess - "it's art"). 


I think it is very important to remember always that videogames are a product and that as with any other product consumers must be satisfied with it in order for the product to successfully make money.   And manufacturers of discretionary products such as videogames should have an even higher bar for their products because their sale really does depend upon consumer satisfaction and goodwill. As a consumer for example, I tend to purchase from companies that demonstrate concern for the consumer in a variety of ways including thinking about the impact of the product on the consumer.  So my loyalty, goodwill and decision to purchase tends to go to corporations who consistently produce a good product and take responsibility for mistakes or misfires without having to be shamed into it.  

So to me this whole discussion is more than just the issue of poorly constructed endings...it's the stream of promises that haven't been kept, the frequent CYA scrambles, the finger pointing and cries of "nerdrage" and "whiny entitled fans" when consumers complain about their product followed often by the release of an additional product for an additional cost that makes me wary.

I'm glad people like the OP and atghunter are pointing out the strategies being used to manipulate us.  Thank you!   I'm with you in holding the line.

[unclee]

bulldozerchn98 wrote...

Personally, I think the battle to getting the ending we want, weather it it is a patch or DLC, will take a very, very long time.

Bioware has already stated they have prepared various content to be released over a course of weeks and months, or in other words, a schedule. Even if they do listen to us, they will never allow such DLC to be released whenever the fans demand. Look at last year with ME2 for example - Considered that the more important (and polished) DLC's in LotSB and Arrival are released at the end/later part of the year, while Overlord, Kasumi and the Vehicle packs were shipped out quite quickly.

It will be a smart move on Bioware's end to delay the ending as much as possible. I can guarantee you that the next DLC they release will be re-taking Omega. This fulfills their vague promise of a) more Shepard and more content. So we have to really bear down on these coming months folks, I know you can do it.

Hold. The. Line.

But that's a gamble in and of itself. DLC sales for any game are usually not (if they've ever been) 1:1 with numer of copies sold. So, while we may only make up a fraction of total sales for ME3, I'd be willing to bet we make up a much larger portion of DLC sales because we're the ones who keep up with all the news and stick around here for official announcements. I can name at least a dozen people I work with who played both ME1 and ME2, yet don't even know that both games had DLC. I'm sure others around here know people like this as well.

I know a lot of people are in the same mindset as I am: I won't buy any DLC until Bioware at least says something concrete (even if what they say is "deal with it.").

So it really comes down to how much of a hit in DLC sales will they take if they just continue with their plans without saying anything? If it's a large enough portion, it's feasible that they may have to alter their course or, at the very least, say "somethings coming but it's gonna take a while to plan, produce, test and implement. We've got other great content that's already been planned, produced and tested though."

And you know what? If they said that, I'd gladly buy DLC that has me taking back Omega to tide me over because I'd know that the 1% of ME3 that's messed up is going to be joining the remaining 99% in amaztastic land.

[GoblinSapper]

MR LEE:

This will be on the forum thread if you read, if not here's a PM.

I would just like to say, you have my sympathies. Having worked "customer service" before I understand how hard it is to deal with customers, especially when they don't appreciate the work you do or dehumanize you. So I just wanted to say I, and I assume most of us, definitively do appreciate what you and Bioware does. I'm not here to accuse you of corporate shilling, though I am firmly in the "what the hell was that ****?" camp regarding the endings and don't intend to change that any time soon, or let up on BiowareEA regarding the issue.

We cool. But the war must go on.

[marshkoala]

@vox504

Yes I agree!

My frustration was calmed when I understood his point, we just have to keep on saying it over and over again.

Mental Picture: Bioware is just a toddler just keep on saying the same thing over again and eventually they will get it.(We love you, great creation...just give more options to ending)

[MuckrakerElder]

Never give up. Never give in. Fight them.....be civil, be respectful.........but fight them nonetheless.


Hold the Line

[Zulmoka531]

Kinda reminds me of the BP oil spill parody South Park did:

[vigna]

Samuel_Valkyrie wrote...

I posted someting in another thread, and I want to post it here because it might clear some thing up:


While I am convinced that this event was already planned before release, it does present an opportunity, both for Bioware/EA, and the Retake ME3 movement.
Bioware/EA will take this event as an opportunity to show how successful the game is to the outside world, no matter how many people will actually take part.However, internal statistics will show how much people will actually take part, and this is an opportunity for RetakeME3 to show that we are serious, and that we do have an impact.

And, as said before: "A boycott is an act of voluntarily abstaining from using, buying,or dealing with a person, organization, or country as an expression of protest, usually for political reasons. It can be a form of consumer activism."


EDIT 2:

Just a reminder for all: Server attendance do count, in fact, towards a games popularity, and therefore, against EA's bottom line. When you log in, whether through multiplayer or singeplayer, as long as you log into the EA servers, attendance is counted.

So, what does that mean? First of all, it means EA has the information on you, to prioritize advertisements on you. That is worth money. Second, it means that the game has longevity, and, therefore, you are committed to the EA brand. That, as well, is worth money.

In short, information is money. Our society is long past the point where over-the-counter products are the only source of income of a producer. EA no longer solely makes profit only of you buying their games, but for a great part makes money of the information you provide them by logging into their servers.(Remember the Origin row some months back? Yes, that's exactly what this is about: EA being able to collect information on you, and handing it to other parties)

So, by boycotting them, you are having a direct influence on their bottom line. Maybe not in the way you expect it, nor in the way you wish to (because, really, we all would prefer to take action without having to sacrifice anything in return), but, ultimately, you DO have influence in this way.


I also want to suggest something here:

As stated before, EA can monitor players through their servers.

Yet, many people still wish to play the game, even with the ending.

Ofcourse, this is not only thier just right, but if they can enjoy the game still, I feel they mustn't be denied this.

However, for all those who would, i would urge the following:

Disconnnect your internet.

You can play the game without internet access (except for multiplayer), but without internet access, EA cannot track who is playing. If the entire field goes black, it, again, shows a very clear message to them about how we feel.

Don't deny yourself the pleasure of the game. Just,do it in such a way, that, if you stand behind the cause, you still support it.

THIS^^^^^

[GoblinSapper]

unclee wrote...

bulldozerchn98 wrote...

Personally, I think the battle to getting the ending we want, weather it it is a patch or DLC, will take a very, very long time.

Bioware has already stated they have prepared various content to be released over a course of weeks and months, or in other words, a schedule. Even if they do listen to us, they will never allow such DLC to be released whenever the fans demand. Look at last year with ME2 for example - Considered that the more important (and polished) DLC's in LotSB and Arrival are released at the end/later part of the year, while Overlord, Kasumi and the Vehicle packs were shipped out quite quickly.

It will be a smart move on Bioware's end to delay the ending as much as possible. I can guarantee you that the next DLC they release will be re-taking Omega. This fulfills their vague promise of a) more Shepard and more content. So we have to really bear down on these coming months folks, I know you can do it.

Hold. The. Line.

But that's a gamble in and of itself. DLC sales for any game are usually not (if they've ever been) 1:1 with numer of copies sold. So, while we may only make up a fraction of total sales for ME3, I'd be willing to bet we make up a much larger portion of DLC sales because we're the ones who keep up with all the news and stick around here for official announcements. I can name at least a dozen people I work with who played both ME1 and ME2, yet don't even know that both games had DLC. I'm sure others around here know people like this as well.

I know a lot of people are in the same mindset as I am: I won't buy any DLC until Bioware at least says something concrete (even if what they say is "deal with it.").

So it really comes down to how much of a hit in DLC sales will they take if they just continue with their plans without saying anything? If it's a large enough portion, it's feasible that they may have to alter their course or, at the very least, say "somethings coming but it's gonna take a while to plan, produce, test and implement. We've got other great content that's already been planned, produced and tested though."

And you know what? If they said that, I'd gladly buy DLC that has me taking back Omega to tide me over because I'd know that the 1% of ME3 that's messed up is going to be joining the remaining 99% in amaztastic land.

Logical fallacy, by purchasing DLC without promise of ending fix you are tacitly approving of the situation. Control yourself and boycott sir, please.

[Asedious]

Bioware, just imagine the possibilities: your wouldn't be giving in to a "bunch of whiners", we are thousands of people with valid arguments. I can assure you that more than 95% of us would buy ANY DLC you come up with IF we were happy with the endings, try to see it this way: we want to be happy with the game and YOU want us to be happy with it, we're on the same boat in that, however, we're not happy, and all the PR stuff we're getting is just making it all worse.

We need your commitment, we need to know you are willing to change this. There are well over 100,000 customers fighting for it, most of us are not up to buy any DLC or another game of yours if this matter isn't fixed, I can see right there millions of dollars lost because of it.

We don't want a "we're listening" if we don't get a "we're working on it, we also want you to be happy with our game".

We stand for our initial demand: we want what we were promised: Closure! that Our Choices matter! We want a fulfilling ending! is it that hard?

We will hold the line until we get what we want. Some may falter, but must of us will keep fighting.

Modifié par Asedious, 17 mars 2012 - 05:25 .

[lasertank]

This post really deserves more bumps!

Hold the line.

"DON'T play the game, DON'T buy and DLCs unless they are EXACTLY what you want. They will feel the dropping numbers, they have Origin. Many people didn't like Origin, but now it is YOUR weapon. Don't play and the WILL see that. " -- KeldorKatarn