393 réponses à ce sujet

[HaesoME3]

I play games like these multiple times over, not just once, that's how I get my replay value. I cannot stomach ever playing ME3 again, it's not what I paid for, I'll keep trying to get a refund, wish I'd bought from amazon.

[al9998]

Lycius wrote...

al9998 wrote...

I hope that the OP is genuine and honest to himself, and will not try to abuse the retailer's goodwill in the future. I am afraid once you find out you can 'game the system' this way, you will do it again and again, while rationalize yourself away. Claiming that a game is completely worthless AFTER finishing the WHOLE GAME is quite absurd (I just can't figure out how you can endure to finish the whole game if you don't enjoy it). In psychology, there is a term about this kind of self-rationalization, it is called 'self deception' (please google this term and learn more about it).

One thing you should understand is that, despite how you hate the ending, there are many honest and hard working people who had put countless hours to produce a game; those people have a right to their livelihood. If most people behaves like you do, it is the honest people that get hurt.

If you are truly sincere and honest, I would suggest that in the future, you should NOT pre-ordering or buying any games early. You should do more research and read more customer's review. Please do not do this again, DON'T play the WHOLE game and then refund it. Thank you.

I wont be pre-ordering a game from Bioware again. Bank on that.

However, I typically pre-order CE's of anything I find interesting before release. Considering the amount of games I have purchased since I was using DOS 2.11 and this is the first I've ever returned.......Perhaps your selfcontrol is so weak that you couldn't resist something you could abuse once you found out but mine is not.

By the way, could you maybe try sounding a bit more pretencious? I'm pretty sure you could but I had to google that term and learn more about it.

Perhaps you should read this thread a bit more closely and you will see time and again why many of us have returned the game, myself included. You'll also see just how ridiculous your families are getting hurt idea really is. The mortgage bankers who've destroyed millions of families over greed and the oil speculators currently screwing us with gas prices have familes too. Should I just accept thier bull**** because they have familes?

To the OP and everyone that have returned the game:

Since I do not know you personally, I can only hope that you are as honest as you claim.

I am a software developer so I believe I have a better understanding of the amount of effort that need to make a game, and I tend to sympathize with the game developers. Please understanding that the 20+hours that you spent enjoying the game requires years and years of hard work by the game developers; a majority of game developers are not decision makers, they are just doing honest work and trying to make a living. if the game does not sell well, they are the first ones to go. In that sense, playing a video game is more similar to watching a movie or reading a book; during the process you are enjoying other people's hard work (and so the 'car' analogy is irrelevant here). if you genuinely feel that they have put hard work into the game, then they should be rewarded. Enjoying the full game and then demand a FULL refund is unfair.

The reason I bring up the psychology term about 'self-rationalization' and 'self-deception' is because people have a tendency to justify their dishonest behaviour by coming up with many excuses to fool THEMSELVES. Such as the excuse that since the ending is 'bad', they are entitled for a FULL refund, despite the fact that these gamers have spent 20+ hours enjoying the whole process.

I don't understand why you bring up mortgage bankers, that is irrelevant to our discussion. I have no comment on that.

[houldendub]

al9998 wrote...

if the game does not sell well, they are the first ones to go. In that sense, playing a video game is more similar to watching a movie or reading a book; during the process you are enjoying other people's hard work (and so the 'car' analogy is irrelevant here). if you genuinely feel that they have put hard work into the game, then they should be rewarded. Enjoying the full game and then demand a FULL refund is unfair.

Wrong. They get paid on an hour by hour basis, like everyone else. They only receive extra payments if their employment continues or they get bonuses if EA decides so. EA gets the money from people buying the game. It is not done on a royalty basis, $60 does not get shared around with the whole team each time someone buys a copy of the game.

For a software developer you sound like you don't know anything at all?

[kbct]

Lycius wrote...

I wont be pre-ordering a game from Bioware again. Bank on that.

However, I typically pre-order CE's of anything I find interesting before release. Considering the amount of games I have purchased since I was using DOS 2.11 and this is the first I've ever returned.......Perhaps your selfcontrol is so weak that you couldn't resist something you could abuse once you found out but mine is not.

ME3 had a huge number of pre-orders. I was one of them. Like you, I won't pre-order another game from BioWare.

I have never returned a game. And I have purchased and tried a lot of mediocre games. However, I am considering returning ME3. I have another two weeks to think about it since I purchased it at Amazon. Actually, since I purchase so much stuff from Amazon, I'm sure they'll be lenient on the 30 day return policy too.

[al9998]

houldendub wrote...

al9998 wrote...

if the game does not sell well, they are the first ones to go. In that sense, playing a video game is more similar to watching a movie or reading a book; during the process you are enjoying other people's hard work (and so the 'car' analogy is irrelevant here). if you genuinely feel that they have put hard work into the game, then they should be rewarded. Enjoying the full game and then demand a FULL refund is unfair.

Wrong. They get paid on an hour by hour basis, like everyone else. They only receive extra payments if their employment continues or they get bonuses if EA decides so. EA gets the money from people buying the game. It is not done on a royalty basis, $60 does not get shared around with the whole team each time someone buys a copy of the game.

For a software developer you sound like you don't know anything at all?

Here you go again, trying to make excuse. First, let's not talk about who get the reward. I just want to ask one question. Did you finish the whole game and get a full refund? Do you feel entitlement to do so?

[houldendub]

al9998 wrote...

houldendub wrote...

al9998 wrote...

if the game does not sell well, they are the first ones to go. In that sense, playing a video game is more similar to watching a movie or reading a book; during the process you are enjoying other people's hard work (and so the 'car' analogy is irrelevant here). if you genuinely feel that they have put hard work into the game, then they should be rewarded. Enjoying the full game and then demand a FULL refund is unfair.

Wrong. They get paid on an hour by hour basis, like everyone else. They only receive extra payments if their employment continues or they get bonuses if EA decides so. EA gets the money from people buying the game. It is not done on a royalty basis, $60 does not get shared around with the whole team each time someone buys a copy of the game.

For a software developer you sound like you don't know anything at all?

Here you go again, trying to make excuse. First, let's not talk about who get the reward. I just want to ask one question. Did you finish the whole game and get a full refund? Do you feel entitlement to do so?

It's not an excuse, you're just wrong.

And no, I haven't returned the game, I haven't even finished it, I feel no entitlement to because I own the game on PC and the logistics of having it deactivated from my Origin which holds many other games would be insane.

Still doesn't change the fact you obviously don't know what in God's name you're talking about. Simple business.

[al9998]

houldendub wrote...

al9998 wrote...

houldendub wrote...

al9998 wrote...

if the game does not sell well, they are the first ones to go. In that sense, playing a video game is more similar to watching a movie or reading a book; during the process you are enjoying other people's hard work (and so the 'car' analogy is irrelevant here). if you genuinely feel that they have put hard work into the game, then they should be rewarded. Enjoying the full game and then demand a FULL refund is unfair.

Wrong. They get paid on an hour by hour basis, like everyone else. They only receive extra payments if their employment continues or they get bonuses if EA decides so. EA gets the money from people buying the game. It is not done on a royalty basis, $60 does not get shared around with the whole team each time someone buys a copy of the game.

For a software developer you sound like you don't know anything at all?

Here you go again, trying to make excuse. First, let's not talk about who get the reward. I just want to ask one question. Did you finish the whole game and get a full refund? Do you feel entitlement to do so?

It's not an excuse, you're just wrong.

And no, I haven't returned the game, I haven't even finished it, I feel no entitlement to because I own the game on PC and the logistics of having it deactivated from my Origin which holds many other games would be insane.

Still doesn't change the fact you obviously don't know what in God's name you're talking about. Simple business.

If a game doesn't sell well, the developers, not the managerment, will be the first ones to let go. On the other hand, ff the game sells well, the developers will get extra bonus. However, this is not the point of my posts. I have a feeling you are trying to spin my words just to deflect my original points. 

[GuyIncognito21]

And I'm just going to imagine that Amazon is the one eating the difference on this exchange. The poor enslaved developers are not, I presume, having their bread and water rations reduced (at least not directly).

It does show, however, the difference between a company that eats a short term loss for the benefit of its customers and a company that reaps short term rewards at the expense of its customers.

Amazon comes out of this looking great (and will benefit in the future from the reputation boost), and EA/BW looks terrible.

Keeping that in mind, it's entirely possible that the developers will suffer in the long term from their unscrupulous practices, if the universe is just.  Welcome to the 21st Century digital market, where customer loyalty is paramount.

People can get your products anywhere they like, even for free.  The onus is on the developers to show us why we should A) pay for it, and  pay THEM for it.  

Modifié par GuyIncognito21, 21 mars 2012 - 02:03 .

[kbct]

al9998 wrote...

a majority of game developers are not decision makers, they are just doing honest work and trying to make a living. if the game does not sell well, they are the first ones to go.

The decision makers at EA and BioWare are also responsible. It's a two-way street. They are the ones that haven't addressed this mess.

I agree that it's a shame the workers suffer before the executives suffer.

[al9998]

GuyIncognito21 wrote...

And I'm just going to imagine that Amazon is the one eating the difference on this exchange. The poor enslaved developers are not, I presume, having their bread and water rations reduced (at least not directly).

It does show, however, the difference between a company that eats a short term loss for the benefit of its customers and a company that reaps short term rewards at the expense of its customers.

Amazon comes out of this looking great (and will benefit in the future from the reputation boost), and EA/BW looks terrible.

Keeping that in mind, it's entirely possible that the developers will suffer in the long term from their unscrupulous practices, if the universe is just.  Welcome to the 21st Century digital market, where customer loyalty is paramount.

Again, instead of kept being deflected from my origin point, I want to restate my point. Do you finish the WHOLE game and get a full refund and feel justify to do so? Are you genuinely thinking that enjoying other people's hard work and then claiming foul afterwards is honest on your side?

My point is that, if the game is really that bad, you couldn't have endure it till the end right? If you play the game for a few minutes and then return the game, then it is justifiable. But that is not the case here.

[AkiKishi]

Elhanan wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...

I have often returned games that were not fit for purpose. That is my right as a UK citizen and I intend to excercise it when I deem fit. I do not return every game, maybe 1 in 10.

Not really my problem. If I feel mislead by the games advertising I will seek remedy.

None of your business as long as I am within my legal rights to do something. 

It is when when the rising cost in games has such examples to use to justify increases. The serpent devouring its tail all over again.

Game prices have not changed significantly in years.

Here are two examples. CoD retailed at £45 ME3 retailed at £40 with an additional charge for day 1 DLC which was on the disk.

CoD still steamrolled ME3 in sales despite the higher price point. Where as EA have reaped nothing but ill will for the day 1 DLC on the disk.

[Oldbones2]

The lesson I take from this, is that Amazon cares about customer loyalty and satisfaction.

Bioware seems to be prepared to lose long term customers to avoid a short term cost.

[HaesoME3]

al9998 wrote...

houldendub wrote...

al9998 wrote...

if the game does not sell well, they are the first ones to go. In that sense, playing a video game is more similar to watching a movie or reading a book; during the process you are enjoying other people's hard work (and so the 'car' analogy is irrelevant here). if you genuinely feel that they have put hard work into the game, then they should be rewarded. Enjoying the full game and then demand a FULL refund is unfair.

Wrong. They get paid on an hour by hour basis, like everyone else. They only receive extra payments if their employment continues or they get bonuses if EA decides so. EA gets the money from people buying the game. It is not done on a royalty basis, $60 does not get shared around with the whole team each time someone buys a copy of the game.

For a software developer you sound like you don't know anything at all?

Here you go again, trying to make excuse. First, let's not talk about who get the reward. I just want to ask one question. Did you finish the whole game and get a full refund? Do you feel entitlement to do so?

I can't speak for anyone but myself, but I finished "A" game, a game that I purchased on several false premises perpetuated by the developer's own press releases, a game that I am thoroughly dissatisfied with. They can agree, give me a refund, or they can disagree and I can not do business with them in the future.

I don't believe a viable case legally speaking exists for a false advertising lawsuit, but to me on a personal level I feel lied to and would like compensation. They've every right to disagree and I've every right to never do business with them again, I feel that's a perfectly reasonable and justifiable way to go about this. I was waiting for word about changing the ending, but I feel I've waited too long already. Just recently I was almost able to get a refund but was told because it was over 14 days - by mere hours - after the purchase they would not give me said refund. I'm done letting their PR team stall me. If they'd said an appropriate ending was coming and it would be free of charge, I would not be asking for a refund. They didn't.

[Blarty]

I am just stunned at this whole debacle..... not the game, but this ridiculously immature reaction to it.

[al9998]

HaesoME3 wrote...

al9998 wrote...

houldendub wrote...

al9998 wrote...

if the game does not sell well, they are the first ones to go. In that sense, playing a video game is more similar to watching a movie or reading a book; during the process you are enjoying other people's hard work (and so the 'car' analogy is irrelevant here). if you genuinely feel that they have put hard work into the game, then they should be rewarded. Enjoying the full game and then demand a FULL refund is unfair.

Wrong. They get paid on an hour by hour basis, like everyone else. They only receive extra payments if their employment continues or they get bonuses if EA decides so. EA gets the money from people buying the game. It is not done on a royalty basis, $60 does not get shared around with the whole team each time someone buys a copy of the game.

For a software developer you sound like you don't know anything at all?

Here you go again, trying to make excuse. First, let's not talk about who get the reward. I just want to ask one question. Did you finish the whole game and get a full refund? Do you feel entitlement to do so?

I can't speak for anyone but myself, but I finished "A" game, a game that I purchased on several false premises perpetuated by the developer's own press releases, a game that I am thoroughly dissatisfied with. They can agree, give me a refund, or they can disagree and I can not do business with them in the future.

I don't believe a viable case legally speaking exists for a false advertising lawsuit, but to me on a personal level I feel lied to and would like compensation. They've every right to disagree and I've every right to never do business with them again, I feel that's a perfectly reasonable and justifiable way to go about this. I was waiting for word about changing the ending, but I feel I've waited too long already. Just recently I was almost able to get a refund but was told because it was over 14 days - by mere hours - after the purchase they would not give me said refund. I'm done letting their PR team stall me. If they'd said an appropriate ending was coming and it would be free of charge, I would not be asking for a refund. They didn't.

It is good that you are not going to buy their game anymore forever after. At least this is an honest thing to do.

However, let me restate my point again:

Are you genuinely thinking that enjoying other people's hard work and then claiming foul afterwards is honest on your side? If the game is really that bad, you couldn't have endure it till the end right? If you play the game for a few minutes and then return the game, then it is justifiable. But that is not the case here. Ask yourself why you can finish the game without enjoying it one bit.

Instead of asking for a full refund, I think a more honest thing to do is to sell your game right now and never do business with them again.

[wolf99000]

I just read this headline on raptr

Origin also offering refund to unhappy ME 3 fans – GamingSquid

http://gamingsquid.c...happy-me-3-fans

[Pordis Shepard]

Oldbones2 wrote...
The lesson I take from this, is that Amazon cares about customer loyalty and satisfaction.

Bioware seems to be prepared to lose long term customers to avoid a short term cost.

As much as I would like to believe Amazon's motives are pure, I think there is a lot of trying to grab future market share on games from other outlets in their decision.

For ppl making analogies...  a lot of ppl who play this series love the replayability of it.  Some I know have tens of playthroughs ready to go into me3.  So if the the ending breaks the value of the game, even though it was fabulous up until that point---how is that different from a car purchase, where "I loved the car on my new car on my first drive, but then it broke.  I was expecting to be able to drive it more than once, from your advertisements of it."

[Farbautisonn]

Pordis Shepard wrote...
As much as I would like to believe Amazon's motives are pure, I think there is a lot of trying to grab future market share on games from other outlets in their decision.

For ppl making analogies...  a lot of ppl who play this series love the replayability of it.  Some I know have tens of playthroughs ready to go into me3.  So if the the ending breaks the value of the game, even though it was fabulous up until that point---how is that different from a car purchase, where "I loved the car on my new car on my first drive, but then it broke.  I was expecting to be able to drive it more than once, from your advertisements of it."

-I dont see that makes it any less pure. Its sound business. You compromise now in order to reign in later. Amazon gets alot of PR by word of mouth and by media by doing this. They will likely also get more sales because people now know that Amazon "looks out for them first". The loss they might incur from having to recieve used games is negliable because they can either wipe it off on EA by asking for a discount on future sales (by referring to this debacle)... I know I would if I were in their procurement dept. Or they can simply sell their used products at a significant discount and then discontinue any future options of sale. Its a win win for Amazon.

If Bioware had done this from the word "go" they would be the ones reaping the favours. Now bioware/EA seem like they were "pressured" by Amazon to do the right thing. by accepting refunds over Origin. Thats not good. Especially on top of everything else.

[al9998]

Pordis Shepard wrote...

Oldbones2 wrote...
The lesson I take from this, is that Amazon cares about customer loyalty and satisfaction.

Bioware seems to be prepared to lose long term customers to avoid a short term cost.

As much as I would like to believe Amazon's motives are pure, I think there is a lot of trying to grab future market share on games from other outlets in their decision.

For ppl making analogies...  a lot of ppl who play this series love the replayability of it.  Some I know have tens of playthroughs ready to go into me3.  So if the the ending breaks the value of the game, even though it was fabulous up until that point---how is that different from a car purchase, where "I loved the car on my new car on my first drive, but then it broke.  I was expecting to be able to drive it more than once, from your advertisements of it."

I have argued about the 'car' analogy before, I will restate again. The experience of playing a game is more close to the experience of reading a book or watching a movie; in which every minute of your experience and enjoyment come from the hard work of the people whole produce said experience. It is not a tangible product like a car, so the car analogy is inappropriate. I believe everyone would agree that no sane person will ask for a refund after sitting through a whole movie, claiming that reason to be that the movie is not 're-watchable'.

Again, I have no problem if you sell the games that you don't like. But asking for a refund after you have experienced the whole game is dishonest.

[SalsaDMA]

Ivandra Ceruden wrote...

I think Amazon is just seeing an opportunity here. But let's not be TOO pessimistic either, shall we?

The way I see it, this is the third EA game I know of in a relatively short period that made consumers demand their money back (DA2, BF3, ME3).

That can't be good for EA when negotiating deals with distributors in the future.

[SalsaDMA]

al9998 wrote...

Again, I have no problem if you sell the games that you don't like. But asking for a refund after you have experienced the whole game is dishonest.

Selling a different product than advertised is dishonest. Demanding your money back when faced with such schemes is not.

[al9998]

SalsaDMA wrote...

al9998 wrote...

Again, I have no problem if you sell the games that you don't like. But asking for a refund after you have experienced the whole game is dishonest.

Selling a different product than advertised is dishonest. Demanding your money back when faced with such schemes is not.

Yes, provided that you play for a few minutes and quicly STOP and RETURN your game immediately. Again, my point is that after experiencing the full game, which the developers have put countless hours to produce, and THEN get a refund is dishonest.

[al9998]

al9998 wrote...

SalsaDMA wrote...

al9998 wrote...

Again, I have no problem if you sell the games that you don't like. But asking for a refund after you have experienced the whole game is dishonest.

Selling a different product than advertised is dishonest. Demanding your money back when faced with such schemes is not.

Yes, provided that you play for a few minutes and quicly STOP and RETURN your game immediately. Again, my point is that after experiencing the full game, which the developers have put countless hours to produce, and THEN get a refund is dishonest.

To give an analogy, if you go to a movie theatre and expect to watch a comedy but end up watching p0rn somehow, then you would quickly get out and demand a refund. In that case you have a case. However, it would be absurd if you sit through the whole p0rn movie and then demand a refund afterwards.

[SalsaDMA]

al9998 wrote...

al9998 wrote...

SalsaDMA wrote...

al9998 wrote...

Again, I have no problem if you sell the games that you don't like. But asking for a refund after you have experienced the whole game is dishonest.

Selling a different product than advertised is dishonest. Demanding your money back when faced with such schemes is not.

Yes, provided that you play for a few minutes and quicly STOP and RETURN your game immediately. Again, my point is that after experiencing the full game, which the developers have put countless hours to produce, and THEN get a refund is dishonest.

To give an analogy, if you go to a movie theatre and expect to watch a comedy but end up watching p0rn somehow, then you would quickly get out and demand a refund. In that case you have a case. However, it would be absurd if you sit through the whole p0rn movie and then demand a refund afterwards.

To stick with your analogy: You pay a movie ticket to see a comedy with your underaged kid. You get in and the movie plays out like a comedy, except for the last 10 minutes where the entire cast throws all their clothes and starts having a ball with everything being shown explicit to the viewer. Shocked, you are unable to comprehend what you are seeing before you as the scene plays out and the movie ends.

Your claim, in this case, would then be that the customer should not get a refund and that there was nothing wrong with the product (the movie) compared to what it was advertised as.

My claim, however, would be that the movie was sold on a wrong basis and I would demand not only my money back, but also be infuriated at having had to have that experience with my kid at my side.