613 réponses à ce sujet

[The Spamming Troll]

it seems like those lost bioware employees that arent with them anymore truely were the important ones.

i shall miss bioware '07-'08

[Greed1914]

Like he said, a game, and especially an RPG that allows us to help craft the narrative really needs to make you feel like what you did always mattered. There is going to be a backlash when that isn't conveyed, and it definitely didn't come across in the ending.

[Legend78731]

DA:O was so concerned about the "ending experience", they wrote different music that would play over the end credits depending on what ending you got.

ME:3 used a Google image for theirs.

[Subject M]

tobito113 wrote...

I though people didnt want a happy ending? Now you show your real faces

Huh? Not wanting an happy ending for oneself if one thing, then you can play your game against that goal. The point is to reward the player for his or her hard work and achievements. If a player wants an "happy ending" reuniting with Sheps team and eventual LI, they should have that option to fight for and possibility to achieve. With this not being said that every ending is easy to get. Threre is nothing wrong with happy endings, as long as things can end in other much more bleak ways.

[Subject M]

Legend78731 wrote...

Brent Knowles, who was the lead designer on Dragon Age: Origins, and one of the old guard Bioware developers (Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights), and, when he quit Bioware, made the interesting observation that "Bioware is no longer the company I remember". He's talked a little bit about the ME3 situation on his blog, but they're mainly comments to other posts. Check it out at: www.brentknowles.com

One thing he did say, I thought I would share (if it's already been posted, I apologize), as it's a sentiment I happen to agree with:

"I read one recent blog post where the writer basically said "the ending was awesome because it was just like a movie" and I think she was missing the point.

It is a game. Not a movie.

And more specifically, its a role-playing game. The players are *part* of the game. Part of the process of building and experiencing the game, much more so than with most other forms of entertainment.

Entitlement is really a right, for the gamer, because they have participated, actively, in the game itself.

Again, I can't speak to the actual ending myself, because I have not played it but in general I'd say a Role-Playing Video Game Trilogy Ending should (try to) do the following:

1. Reward the player's choices throughout the series. The big stuff they did should be noted. They should *feel* like they had a unique impact on the world.

2. End on a positive note. This is really important for video games...life in general is full of s****y stuff happening all the time. When I invest a hundred hours into a game I need to walk away feeling like a hero.

When you waste a couple hours of a person's life with an artsy/depressing movie or short story or even a novel, it is more forgivable because the time spent is less. And presumably the consumer knew what they were going into when they started. Certain directors create certain styles of movie. Certain writers write specific types of fiction.

On the other hand somebody playing an epic role-playing video-game trilogy is going to *expect* to be the hero and save the universe. That's why they are playing the game. When expectations don't match reality, disappointment is created.

It might be an artistic/creative move to go with a different style of ending but I feel its the wrong choice, especially for a videogame *trilogy*. Make your middle game bleak if you want to, but end the series on a high note."

EDIT: Fixed the formatting of the quote, and for those looking for the original comment, it's in the following link. Scroll down a few comments to find it.

http://blog.brentkno.../#disqus_thread

In a nutshell.

[GorrilaKing]

I played through DA: O five times and still had goosebumps in the end. That's what a good conclusion is like! Guy definitely knows what he's talking about.

[Tony208]

Legend78731 wrote...

DA:O was so concerned about the "ending experience", they wrote different music that would play over the end credits depending on what ending you got.

ME:3 used a Google image for theirs.

Wow that's amazing, I'll have to be aware of that next time I play.

[Stephanid98]

So this is the guy who gave me DA:O and let it open enough to enjoy it further in fanfiction! For that I thank him. There's been 3 game fanficts I've enjoyed, Kotor, DA:O & ME. And while I've enjoyed ME1 & 2 ff, after ME3 I don't see where there's anything left for me to enjoy. This guy understands how to do it and do it right. Not just in game, but also leaving something for fans to enjoy and relate to in various creative mediums. It just helps to build the franchise.

[LTBK]

Brent Knowles wrote...

Again, I can't speak to the actual ending myself, because I have not played it but in general I'd say a Role-Playing Video Game Trilogy Ending should (try to) do the following:

1. Reward the player's choices throughout the series. The big stuff they did should be noted. They should *feel* like they had a unique impact on the world.

2. End on a positive note. This is really important for video games...life in general is full of s****y stuff happening all the time. When I invest a hundred hours into a game I need to walk away feeling like a hero.

When you waste a couple hours of a person's life with an artsy/depressing movie or short story or even a novel, it is more forgivable because the time spent is less. And presumably the consumer knew what they were going into when they started. Certain directors create certain styles of movie. Certain writers write specific types of fiction.

On the other hand somebody playing an epic role-playing video-game trilogy is going to *expect* to be the hero and save the universe. That's why they are playing the game. When expectations don't match reality, disappointment is created.

This is SO basic that I'm still trying to wonder how the hell did the current ending happen, haha.

To the guys at BioWare, make a BIG sticky of this and put it right at the entrance of your offices. This is something that you shouldn't forget. Ever.

Modifié par LTBK, 17 mars 2012 - 01:20 .

[Blind2Society]

tobito113 wrote...

I though people didnt want a happy ending? Now you show your real faces

I, myself, never denied that I wanted the option for a happy ending. The happy one would be the only one I would choose but I most certainly do not want to deny others their options.

[Jonas TM]

I don't necessarily agree. I don't think the series has to end on a positive note, or at least a positive note for Shepard. Personally if you toss out the logical and continuity issues and "space magic" I don't have a problem with how the ending for Shepard went. I just think it was set up poorly from the attack on the portal onward. 

Where I do fell let down is the handling of the Normandy crew and LI. If there had been some closure with the LI and the Normandy survived intact on Earth or had some chance of making it back I would call it a good ending. But then again I have read a lot of hard-sci/space opera and I can take melancholy endings, which a lot of people don't like especially when they have invested so much time. Personally if everything had turned out well for everyone it wouldn't have felt right. But I think the Normandy crew was dealt with poorly.

As a side note if you think this is bad (and I don't) read Reynolds "Absolution Gap" after reading the previous two books, which were great, I had to throw it away half-way through.  It completely destoyed the series for me and I can't read his work anymore. 

Modifié par Jonas TM, 17 mars 2012 - 01:22 .

[merylisk]

I would have played through multiple times and gotten the happy ending and the sad ending and all the other ones in between.

[Matt VT Schlo]

Awesome post; I agree with the devs thoughts.,..Bioware needs people like him

[flemm]

LTBK wrote...
This is SO basic that I'm still trying to wonder how the hell did the current ending happen, haha.

Yeah, it is basic. So much so that I can only guess that they knew about this, in theory, and out-smarted themselves trying be "innovative" or "ambiguous." Actually they just wrote a crappy ending.

Modifié par flemm, 17 mars 2012 - 01:21 .

[Subject M]

FbangIncentinveX wrote...

He's right.

And not to keep bringing this up, but this is also why you should be able to save Thane and Legion.

Some deaths are always unavoidable.Especially if they die because of their own choices. I guess one could consider putting Thane in some kind of stasis pod, but I am not sure he would want that, being a deeply spiritual man and all that. Right now I don't see how you could save Legion, make some sort of backup perhaps?

Modifié par Subject M, 17 mars 2012 - 01:22 .

[Vandicus]

So Mass Effect 3 needs epilogue text and either a funeral scene(for those people whose Shepard died) or an after party and it will have mastered the legendary DA:O ending. Oh yes, and it should be up beat like the falsely advertised "dark and gritty" Dragon Age Origins.

[AdeptusAstartes]

TiaraBlade wrote...

Ruari wrote...

Valah79 wrote...

Oh man so well put, where is this guy working now, I gotta buy his video games!

I never really enjoyed DA all that much, but... DA:O > ME3 at this point if only because I could replay it and see "oh, so this choice did that!" with that ending epilogue.

I don't mind a sad ending to some games, it fit pretty well in L.A. Noire, but not ME. We love Shepard because he can do the impossible. He had become many of us over all these years of saving the galaxy. And then to not be able to have any effect on his destiny....it's just wrong.

Bolding by me. This is so true. I was relating ME3 to some friends and I found myself saying, "I did this" or "I did that" rather than "my character did this." Shepherd was out avatar, the person that many of us would want to be and hope we could be in those circumstances. It's just one fo many reasons why we were so emotionally invested in the game and so let down by the ending.

if we were playing "Space Marine" first person shooter and got an ending like ME3 after 10 hours of gameplay, we'd just shrug our shoulders. 100-200 hours of investment into Mass Effect though and we want so much more.

Even though Titus got hauled off by the Inquisition at the end, it STILL ended on a high note because you saved the Forge World and defeated the Traitor Legions. This was Relic's first real attempt at a game that wasn't an RTS and STILL managed to get the end on a high note right. It boggles my mind that the studio that gave us DA:O and the Baldur's Gate Trilogy forgot that you can end with a heroic sacrifice and it STILL feel good. Rather than FORCE you to make a sacrifice, defeating the entire purpose of the series, leave you with not only no sense of closure, but not even really sure if you actually saved the galaxy you were trying to save. Since regardless of the ending you choose, galactic infrastructure is all but destroyed. I hope there's plenty of farms on a planet like Illium. Or they weren't all destroyed in Reaper attacks, because...destroying the Reapers is all well and good when you condemn the entire galaxy to eventual death by starvation or former allies turning on each other and killing one another to get THEIR resources by force. That's even if anyone's ships can make the unfathomably long trip from one system to another. There's being artistic, then there's just being stupid.

[Stephanid98]

merylisk wrote...

I would have played through multiple times and gotten the happy ending and the sad ending and all the other ones in between.

Agreed - instead I'm left trying to force myself to play because in the end, I'm left wondering why it all mattered.  Not many options, not much choice......I'm still in denial that this is what they thought would be a great end to an amazing trilogy.  I just can't wrap my head around it.  I expected loss, I expected sacrifice, but I also expected it be a bit different than just pretty colors.

[Subject M]

Jonas TM wrote...

I don't necessarily agree. I don't think the series has to end on a positive note, or at least a positive note for Shepard. Personally if you toss out the logical and continuity issues and "space magic" I don't have a problem with how the ending for Shepard went. I just think it was set up poorly from the attack on the portal onward. 

Where I do fell let down is the handling of the Normandy crew and LI. If there had been some closure with the LI and the Normandy survived intact on Earth or had some chance of making it back I would call it a good ending. But then again I have read a lot of hard-sci/space opera and I can take melancholy endings, which a lot of people don't like especially when they have invested so much time. Personally if everything had turned out well for everyone it wouldn't have felt right. But I think the Normandy crew was dealt with poorly.

As a side note if you think this is bad (and I don't) read Reynolds "Absolution Gap" after reading the previous two books, which were great, I had to throw it away half-way through.  It completely destoyed the series for me and I can't read his work anymore. 

As I stated in earlier....

This guy know this, he did DAO after all...

[Timforsgren]

Well spoken.

[Aweus]

Bigdoser wrote...

So can we consider brent a acquired war asset?

I guess. But slap him some bonus points value. Due to his field experience he is worth more points from ordinary recruit. Hell, give him some cruiser or something.

[Jonas TM]

Subject M wrote...

Some deaths are always unavoidable.Especially if they die because of their own choices.

^This, a 1000 times this.

Just like in real life people make their own choices, you can't save everyone.  The suicide mission gave a lot of people a false since of invulnerability since that they could always get a perfect ending I think.  That is something I am glad they changed in this one.  The inevitable loss is powerful IMO and the Legion part was well done.

Modifié par Jonas TM, 17 mars 2012 - 01:27 .

[Yalision]

LOL Wow, very nice. From one of Bioware's own... amazing. Good! Maybe this will go somewhere in-house then.. so to speak anyway.

[Therefore_I_Am]

That dude is a saint among the gaming industry. He understands our plight and the truth was all that was needed to be said...

[Deviant Seraph]

Legend78731 wrote...

Or if you romanced Morrigan. I remember replaying the game just to get the awesome bit of text where it says "One night the Warden felt as if Morrigan was thinking about him over a great distance." It was just a sentence, and it carried weight. I still think about that ending.

Very true, or trying to convince Morrigan that you won't sacrifice your ideals just to stay alive. Her desperation to convince you, and her sadness as she walked away from the warden was fantastic. Geat endings all around.