613 réponses à ce sujet

[LyletheBloody]

Sounds like Knowles knows what we want a little more than EA does.

[Rulid]

I'd rather have epilogue text than this ending!

I have fond memories of the end of Throne of Bhaal where every character's epilogue was dealt with.
Despite lack of "cinematic cut scenes" that still tops the creepy old man talking about "the Sheperd".

[Tony208]

Animositisomina wrote...

Tony208 wrote...

Legend78731 wrote...

DA:O was so concerned about the "ending experience", they wrote different music that would play over the end credits depending on what ending you got.

ME:3 used a Google image for theirs.

Wow that's amazing, I'll have to be aware of that next time I play.

Just type "space winter" into Google's image search. It's the very. first. result.

Oh I already know about that fiasco. I'm talking about the ending music for DA:O.

[Beldamon]

This is great -- especially coming from someone who has been involved with such quality products!

I particularly liked his comment about ending on a high note because life in itself is pretty sucky. That's a point I've been trying to get across. And the fact that yeah, books and movies can be depressing, but you generally have an idea of what you are going into.

The jarring thing about the end of ME3 is that it came out of nowhere. It was so badly out of the context of everything that came before that. You can't help but feel that someone decided they would take advantage of someone's complete focus to try and sell you on their philosophy.

About the only way it could have been worse if they'd decided to insert a commercial at that point.

[SkaldFish]

Bigdoser wrote...

Its sad that bioware these days don't really understand this. Well I just have to hope that bioware read this topic and learns from what brent said.

This is a perfect example of a leader who understands that the primary goal of an effort like ME must be to ensure a satisfying experience for the consumer. When that has been the focus, the probability of a result that is both a creative and commercial success goes through the roof. Judging by the result, key decisions that gave us the closing minutes of ME3 were made by one or more people who either didn't understand this or just didn't believe it.

I've particiapted in, then led, many large software development efforts over the last [mumble-mumbledy] years. I've also seen large efforts fail or products ship with mortal wounds that made them commercial disasters. ME3 has all the earmarks of a project in which internal pressures, compromises, second-guessing, misplaced goals, and perhaps infighting dealt serious blows to the final product. If that's the case, the fact that so much of the end result is so brilliant is a tribute to the skill and professionalism of the team members who did the bulk of the development work.

In the end, though, such an effort has to have folks like Knowles on board -- people who understand that there are principles, like ensuring a satisfying experience, that have to inform ALL decision-making -- to keep the effort from running off the rails.

I could be completely wrong about all this, and some could legitimately gig me for making such presumptions, but I.m just saying that, based on personal experience, this is my perception from the outside looking in.

[Tony208]

Animositisomina wrote...

Zulmoka531 wrote...

"Again, I can't speak to the actual ending myself, because I have not played it"

See, this quote right here already put him above the "mainstream" media retorts.
Toss in everything else he added, and you've got yourself some massive appreciation.

I actually find that that somewhat lessens what he has to say. He's never even played the game, let alone seen the ending for himself first-hand. Yet here he is, telling us why it's so bad.

He's not saying why it's bad. He's saying what he thinks a good ending should be about.

And we can all see the ME3 ending has none of that.

[TiaraBlade]

Persephone wrote...

Given that DAO had some of the most cliche, hero pandering and re-hashed endings ever, I'm not impressed.

New York Times best selling author RA Salvatore was once accused of writing cliched happy endings. His comment was that:
1. happy endings are not cliche', they are a philosophy
2. often those endings comes at great cost.

As for cliche', the "hero dies in the end" is just as cliched as "the hero lives happily ever after." If logically coherent with the story and its themes though, it will be satisfying.

Trying to be all cool and different, swerving at the last second, tends to make for poor story telling unless done exceptionally well and it still must serve the story that was told to that point. Look at Joseph Campbell's Hero's Journey- you might consider it cliche but really it WORKS because that is what humans want in their stories: coherency, catharsis, and closure. Those stories that don't are not remembered, at least not fondly and will seldom be retold or patterned because it fails to satisfy emotionally.
Indeed, look at our reactions here: the vast majority of people who are complaining about the ending are also the biggest and most devoted fans that Boware has. We love their games in large part of their emotionally fulfiling stories. When that is betrayed, well you see the result and you lose customers.
So, trying to be all cool and different just undermines the story, honks off the fans, and loses money for Bioware. How is that intelligent in any way, shape, or form?

[Ranicus56]

[DSGrant]

Brent Knowles gets it.

If Bioware truly wants to succeed and rise above their competition, they need to offer this guy a bucket load of money to come back. It's apparent the current people they have making these decisions are completely out of touch with the fans (e.g., DA2, ME3).

[Zulmoka531]

Animositisomina wrote...

Zulmoka531 wrote...

"Again, I can't speak to the actual ending myself, because I have not played it"

See, this quote right here already put him above the "mainstream" media retorts.
Toss in everything else he added, and you've got yourself some massive appreciation.

I actually find that that somewhat lessens what he has to say. He's never even played the game, let alone seen the ending for himself first-hand. Yet here he is, telling us why it's so bad.

It's one way of taking it, but if so it makes it even more of a crock for something like the IGN reviwer who also had not finished the game to go on his little tirade.

The difference between the two however, is that one made (or had a large part in making) a game that folks are still in love with, and one is paid to priase them.

[Animositisomina]

Tony208 wrote...

Animositisomina wrote...

Tony208 wrote...

Legend78731 wrote...

DA:O was so concerned about the "ending experience", they wrote different music that would play over the end credits depending on what ending you got.

ME:3 used a Google image for theirs.

Wow that's amazing, I'll have to be aware of that next time I play.

Just type "space winter" into Google's image search. It's the very. first. result.

Oh I already know about that fiasco. I'm talking about the ending music for DA:O.

Yeah, I kinda figured that after I posted it. My bad.

[dkear1]

I wonder how many more copies of ME3 would have been sold if they had ended on a high note. Might have been staggering.

[Paranoidal nemesis]

Animositisomina wrote...

Tony208 wrote...

Legend78731 wrote...

DA:O was so concerned about the "ending experience", they wrote different music that would play over the end credits depending on what ending you got.

ME:3 used a Google image for theirs.

Wow that's amazing, I'll have to be aware of that next time I play.

Just type "space winter" into Google's image search. It's the very. first. result.

Dude, your not kidding....

[LTBK]

Animositisomina wrote...

Zulmoka531 wrote...

"Again, I can't speak to the actual ending myself, because I have not played it"

See, this quote right here already put him above the "mainstream" media retorts.
Toss in everything else he added, and you've got yourself some massive appreciation.

I actually find that that somewhat lessens what he has to say. He's never even played the game, let alone seen the ending for himself first-hand. Yet here he is, telling us why it's so bad.

He's not talking about ME3's ending at all. He's just stating what, in his opinion, makes a good ending for an RPG.

[SkaldFish]

Beldamon wrote...

<snip/>

About the only way it could have been worse if they'd decided to insert a commercial at that point.

You mean... like this?

[Dave3172]

He is so right. I still think that Baldur's Gate and BGII are some of the best RPG work ever done.

[Bigdoser]

SkaldFish wrote...

Beldamon wrote...

<snip/>

About the only way it could have been worse if they'd decided to insert a commercial at that point.

You mean... like this?

I was spewing flames when I saw that when I finished my game. 

Modifié par Bigdoser, 17 mars 2012 - 02:09 .

[CronoDragoon]

Completely agree.

[Animositisomina]

LTBK wrote...

Animositisomina wrote...

Zulmoka531 wrote...

"Again, I can't speak to the actual ending myself, because I have not played it"

See, this quote right here already put him above the "mainstream" media retorts.
Toss in everything else he added, and you've got yourself some massive appreciation.

I actually find that that somewhat lessens what he has to say. He's never even played the game, let alone seen the ending for himself first-hand. Yet here he is, telling us why it's so bad.

He's not talking about ME3's ending at all. He's just stating what, in his opinion, makes a good ending for an RPG.

I know, several people pointed that out already. My mistake.

[Yalision]

Dragon Age: Origin was a perfect example of a game that could stand on its own as a legendary RPG and never get a sequel with a massive fan base. The prime example of an rpg done justice. Best of all, I not only had closure after choosing to Sacrifice my Warden (seen as my avatar) and die a hero's death, but I got to see all my choices add up and given a proper epilogue that could differ greatly every time. Story-telling in a game at its finest.

[StowyMcStowstow]

In the Angry Joe review, he asks if all of the RPG writers got fired. Apparently, the answer was no, they just all left.

[Bigdoser]

StowyMcStowstow wrote...

In the Angry Joe review, he asks if all of the RPG writers got fired. Apparently, the answer was no, they just all left.

Ha I recall joe saying that in the review and it does seem that all the RPG dudes have left. 

[ashley_actually]

Legend78731 wrote...

1. Reward the player's choices throughout the series. The big stuff they did should be noted. They should *feel* like they had a unique impact on the world.

2. End on a positive note. This is really important for video games...life in general is full of s****y stuff happening all the time. When I invest a hundred hours into a game I need to walk away feeling like a hero.

When you waste a couple hours of a person's life with an artsy/depressing movie or short story or even a novel, it is more forgivable because the time spent is less. And presumably the consumer knew what they were going into when they started. Certain directors create certain styles of movie. Certain writers write specific types of fiction.

On the other hand somebody playing an epic role-playing video-game trilogy is going to *expect* to be the hero and save the universe. That's why they are playing the game. When expectations don't match reality, disappointment is created.

It might be an artistic/creative move to go with a different style of ending but I feel its the wrong choice, especially for a videogame *trilogy*. Make your middle game bleak if you want to, but end the series on a high note."

This is my main complaint about the ending (aside from how nonsensical it is). It felt like none of the choices I had made mattered at all. Why would Shepard listen to that Reaper God Space Wizard Child at all? 

If Shepard has to sacrifice herself then fine at least have it make sense and be a culmination of the choices I made to get her there. 

And if there is the possibility of different endings and even a possible happy ending then I'm more likely to replay the game and buy DLC content. Why would I replay the game now when it's always going to end with me picking my favourite colour?

Brent Knowles knows what he is talking about. 

[Zu Long]

He put that pretty well. It's a shame he's not in the company anymore.

[Palladin123]

Very well put points by Brent. I would have been fine with even the best ending leaving Shepard dead, as long as there was some epilogue about what happened to all the characters and places we've become fond of over the last 3 games. What happened to our teammates? To our LI? To the principal races? I don't think most users on this forum want a happily ever after ending, they just want one where they know their actions mattered and made a positive difference to the characters they cared about.

And yes, a story such as Mass Effect has to end on an uplifting note, not a depressing one. It's the nature of the genre. If I wanted to experience a depressing story, there're a number of extremely well written books or movies I could read or watch, which are going to far more insightful and deep than any game is going to be for a while. But that's not why I played Mass Effect. I played it for the heroic themes. I played it to see a world through the eyes of a character who ultimately saves the galaxy and those he cares for.