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[Tony Redgrave]

ZodiEmish wrote...

redplague wrote...

Pottumuusi wrote...

And this invalidates indoctrination theory how?

Ummm.....I just said why.

I am not an expert on the indoctrination theory.. but...

If you can produce a boy only you can see. couldn't indoctrination trick the mind to see the boy in a picture of someone else. maybe it is a different boy in that picture but in sheaprds mind it is shown as the begaining boy /star child.

I am just saying. if it can do a full human that can run and walk in sheaprds mind. it can do a static picture of the same boy.

Or Harbinger just uses the image of the child Shepard feels guilty about not beeing able to save, to shake up or confuse him/her during the process.

Though I stil don't think the indoctrination theory is the best way to "solve" the endings. But thats just me.

Modifié par Spaz85, 17 mars 2012 - 12:53 .

[eddieoctane]

redplague wrote...

I noticed the picture of the boy from Earth on the memorial wall in the Citadel.  It's right in the centre at the bottom.  Other people in the game must have noticed this picture as they would have just placed another picture there in front of it.  So this debunks the theory that no one else but Sheperd notices the boy.

The boy being real back on Earth doesn't mean anything. An acurate 3D holographic representation wouldn;t have been possible without ripping the image from Shep's mind. At that point, being able to implant specific memories or halucinations via indoctrination is just as plausible as a memory-scanning arrogant space-god who just wants to be a real boy.

Non-audible sounds can be used to affect the brain. It's smple logic to say a billion year old robot knows how to use this ability intentionally.

[redplague]

Vyndral wrote...

On an odd note, if the reapers could easily make people see whatever they wanted, why they heck didnt the just put a husk on ,oh i dont know, Liara.

Shep walks in, goes OMG HUSK! Guns down Liara. You want to break Shepard have him start shooting his friends. Not posting pictures of phantom little boys on the Normandy.

Maybe the Reapers plan was to make Sheperd into a paedophile.  That's why the image of the boy was getting more and more stressful as he was starting to fancy him.

[neoskeptic2]

Traumatic nightmares, I prefer to think he was representative of everything he couldn't save.

As for the "ending", I'm in the opinion that it was an indoctrination attempt and if you go and destroy the reapers the attempt fails and you're allowed to get up and finish the job. 

Best proof that he isn't indoctrinated is the beacon on Thessia. Shepard wasn't identified as indoctrinated, while Kai Leng was easily identifed as indoctrinated.

Edits: added the ending line, then edited the last line to make it make sense. sorry about that.

Modifié par neoskeptic2, 17 mars 2012 - 12:57 .

[Spectre_Shepard]

couldn't the picture also be in shepards mind?

[Rawgrim]

neoskeptic2 wrote...

Traumatic nightmares, I prefer to think he was representative of everything he couldn't save.

Best proof is the beacon on Thessia. Shepard wasn't identified as indoctrinated, while Kai Leng was easily identifed as indoctrinated.

Shep isn`t indoctrinated at that time. He is showing symptoms, but isn`t fully indoctrinated. Indoctrination happens over time. Check the codex.

[Golferguy758]

But...how...what? That doesn't...even... what?

http://t2.gstatic.co...rVwziP3MKMWtYqw

[Cosmar]

Sorry, OP, that doesn't even come remotely close to debunking the indoctrination theory.

[redplague]

Cosmar wrote...

Sorry, OP, that doesn't even come remotely close to debunking the indoctrination theory.

Yes it does.

[Rawgrim]

redplague wrote...

Cosmar wrote...

Sorry, OP, that doesn't even come remotely close to debunking the indoctrination theory.

Yes it does.

The reapers could have used the image of a boy they know to be dead. I am not sure how long it took for Shep to get from Earth to the Citadel, but by the looks of things, the pic of that boy must have been placed there damn quickly, or...it had been there for quite some time. Just off the top of my head. It might not even be the same kid. just a kid that looks like him. Who knows.

[Eudaemonium]

neoskeptic2 wrote...

Traumatic nightmares, I prefer to think he was representative of everything he couldn't save.

As for the "ending", I'm in the opinion that it was an indoctrination attempt and if you go and destroy the reapers the attempt fails and you're allowed to get up and finish the job. 

Best proof is the beacon on Thessia. Shepard wasn't identified as indoctrinated, while Kai Leng was easily identifed as indoctrinated.

I tend to think the indoctrination tends to happen after Thessia, as a result of Shepard's diminishing willpower that means she is unable to stave it off like before. Shepard begins to crack, and the Reapers/Harbinger are able to exploit this at the end in a last-ditch attempt to break her.

It's just a way of making the endings more palatable to some people. While I think it's a completely valid interpretation of the ending, that doesn't make it definitely the case.

[jkflipflopDAO]

Rawgrim wrote...

neoskeptic2 wrote...

Traumatic nightmares, I prefer to think he was representative of everything he couldn't save.

Best proof is the beacon on Thessia. Shepard wasn't identified as indoctrinated, while Kai Leng was easily identifed as indoctrinated.

Shep isn`t indoctrinated at that time. He is showing symptoms, but isn`t fully indoctrinated. Indoctrination happens over time. Check the codex.

Soooo, he wasn't indoctrinated 10 minutes before shipping out to Earth? The Prothean VI asks you if you "are here to save me from indoctrinated forces". We know from the codex that a fast indoctrination turns people into mindless husks. For Shep to not know he's under their spell, they would have to have been working on him for quite some time. 

No, I'm afraid the Indoc Theory falls on it's face just as hard as the "real" ending.

[Golferguy758]

jkflipflopDAO wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...

neoskeptic2 wrote...

Traumatic nightmares, I prefer to think he was representative of everything he couldn't save.

Best proof is the beacon on Thessia. Shepard wasn't identified as indoctrinated, while Kai Leng was easily identifed as indoctrinated.

Shep isn`t indoctrinated at that time. He is showing symptoms, but isn`t fully indoctrinated. Indoctrination happens over time. Check the codex.

Soooo, he wasn't indoctrinated 10 minutes before shipping out to Earth? The Prothean VI asks you if you "are here to save me from indoctrinated forces". We know from the codex that a fast indoctrination turns people into mindless husks. For Shep to not know he's under their spell, they would have to have been working on him for quite some time. 

No, I'm afraid the Indoc Theory falls on it's face just as hard as the "real" ending.

Like you aren't even trying.

[N7Raider]

ugh yeah no, the indoctrination theory says that Shepard was being indoctrinated in the LAST 15 minutes not that he was indoctrinated the whole game.

[Endersgone]

It's sad we're still trying to rationalize a bad ending with such theories...

[crimzontearz]

soooo shepard's mind can create the child on earth BUT it just could never ever create the image of a picture of the child on the citadel's wall?

OF COURSE!....HOW BLIND WERE WE?

[Rawgrim]

jkflipflopDAO wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...

neoskeptic2 wrote...

Traumatic nightmares, I prefer to think he was representative of everything he couldn't save.

Best proof is the beacon on Thessia. Shepard wasn't identified as indoctrinated, while Kai Leng was easily identifed as indoctrinated.

Shep isn`t indoctrinated at that time. He is showing symptoms, but isn`t fully indoctrinated. Indoctrination happens over time. Check the codex.

Soooo, he wasn't indoctrinated 10 minutes before shipping out to Earth? The Prothean VI asks you if you "are here to save me from indoctrinated forces". We know from the codex that a fast indoctrination turns people into mindless husks. For Shep to not know he's under their spell, they would have to have been working on him for quite some time. 

No, I'm afraid the Indoc Theory falls on it's face just as hard as the "real" ending.

He doesn`t get fully indoctrinated untill he picks anything but Destroy at the end. Adrenaline is known to speed up indoctrination. Running fast towards the beam, dodging explosions, a huge reaper straight infront of him.... And yes. They have been working on him for quite some time. There are plenty of signs of this during the game.

[jkflipflopDAO]

N7Raider wrote...

ugh yeah no, the indoctrination theory says that Shepard was being indoctrinated in the LAST 15 minutes not that he was indoctrinated the whole game.

But if they did that Shep would be a brainless husk. His mind would be wiped. He wouldn't be able to form any sort of cognitive arguement against TIM because the reapers exerted direct control over Shep's mind.

[wikkedjester]

jkflipflopDAO wrote...

Except the prothean VI can detect indoctrination, and it doesn't flag when it sees you. It still doesn't flag in the Illusive Man's office 10 minutes before you leave for Earth. We know a fast indoctrination basically turns one into a mindless husk, and Shepard is not a husk.

Shepard wasn’t indoctrinated “yet.”
They have been trying to wear him down, we don’t know how far or to what level they need to be indoctrinated before it counts as well being indoctrinated. If the Reaper can launch a psychological attack against Shepard, he is being attacked he hasn’t been indoctrinated.
Theoretically his will is so strong that he would need to make the choice to let it happen. 

[Rawgrim]

N7Raider wrote...

ugh yeah no, the indoctrination theory says that Shepard was being indoctrinated in the LAST 15 minutes not that he was indoctrinated the whole game.

Becoming fully indoctrinated during the last 15 minutes. The indoctrination built up during the entire game. Thats the theory. Look it up.

[Paragon Auducan]

Also the Kid is playing (controlling) a toy Alliance ship, I think this is a metaphor for Harbinger (Ventboy/Catalyst/TIM during the ending) controlling Shepard, an Alliance Marine.

[jkflipflopDAO]

Rawgrim wrote...

jkflipflopDAO wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...

neoskeptic2 wrote...

Traumatic nightmares, I prefer to think he was representative of everything he couldn't save.

Best proof is the beacon on Thessia. Shepard wasn't identified as indoctrinated, while Kai Leng was easily identifed as indoctrinated.

Shep isn`t indoctrinated at that time. He is showing symptoms, but isn`t fully indoctrinated. Indoctrination happens over time. Check the codex.

Soooo, he wasn't indoctrinated 10 minutes before shipping out to Earth? The Prothean VI asks you if you "are here to save me from indoctrinated forces". We know from the codex that a fast indoctrination turns people into mindless husks. For Shep to not know he's under their spell, they would have to have been working on him for quite some time. 

No, I'm afraid the Indoc Theory falls on it's face just as hard as the "real" ending.

He doesn`t get fully indoctrinated untill he picks anything but Destroy at the end. Adrenaline is known to speed up indoctrination. Running fast towards the beam, dodging explosions, a huge reaper straight infront of him.... And yes. They have been working on him for quite some time. There are plenty of signs of this during the game.

Right, and fighting a swath through reaper controlled Earth and taking out a destroyer on foot totally wouldn't trip his adrenaline. Talking to Star Child made Shep's juice flow, though. 

Riiiight.

[Smiley556]

So hey, how about you take all that brainpower of yours that is trying to debunk indoctrination theory, the only viable explenation about the ending so far, and make a theory of your own. Go ahead and make a complete explenation of the ending that makes sense that isnt indoctrination. Take your time, I'll wait. Really, cos your not going to convince me unless you provide me with an alternative to indoctrination theory. Present me your theory on the endings, or stop bothering trying to debunk ours.

[Rawgrim]

jkflipflopDAO wrote...

N7Raider wrote...

ugh yeah no, the indoctrination theory says that Shepard was being indoctrinated in the LAST 15 minutes not that he was indoctrinated the whole game.

But if they did that Shep would be a brainless husk. His mind would be wiped. He wouldn't be able to form any sort of cognitive arguement against TIM because the reapers exerted direct control over Shep's mind.

Its the catalyst kid thats indoctrinating him...Notice how you don`t wake up if you chose anything but Destroy? A huge pointer right there.