232 réponses à ce sujet

[Rawgrim]

jkflipflopDAO wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...

jkflipflopDAO wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...

neoskeptic2 wrote...

Traumatic nightmares, I prefer to think he was representative of everything he couldn't save.

Best proof is the beacon on Thessia. Shepard wasn't identified as indoctrinated, while Kai Leng was easily identifed as indoctrinated.

Shep isn`t indoctrinated at that time. He is showing symptoms, but isn`t fully indoctrinated. Indoctrination happens over time. Check the codex.

Soooo, he wasn't indoctrinated 10 minutes before shipping out to Earth? The Prothean VI asks you if you "are here to save me from indoctrinated forces". We know from the codex that a fast indoctrination turns people into mindless husks. For Shep to not know he's under their spell, they would have to have been working on him for quite some time. 

No, I'm afraid the Indoc Theory falls on it's face just as hard as the "real" ending.

He doesn`t get fully indoctrinated untill he picks anything but Destroy at the end. Adrenaline is known to speed up indoctrination. Running fast towards the beam, dodging explosions, a huge reaper straight infront of him.... And yes. They have been working on him for quite some time. There are plenty of signs of this during the game.

Right, and fighting a swath through reaper controlled Earth and taking out a destroyer on foot totally wouldn't trip his adrenaline. Talking to Star Child made Shep's juice flow, though. 

Riiiight.

You are missing the point on purpose.

[defenestrated]

N7Raider wrote...

ugh yeah no, the indoctrination theory
says that Shepard was being indoctrinated in the LAST 15 minutes not
that he was indoctrinated the whole game.

Depends. I've
read three variants on when Shep got indoctrinated. The dominant idea is
that the last 15 minutes aren't real but people seem to have several ideas on when it started.

jkflipflopDAO wrote...

But if they did that Shep would be a brainless husk. His mind would be wiped. He wouldn't be able to form any sort of cognitive arguement against TIM because the reapers exerted direct control over Shep's mind.

If they did that (successfully?), Shep would become a brainless husk. The cognitive degeneration happens fast, not immediately.

Modifié par defenestrated, 17 mars 2012 - 01:10 .

[jkflipflopDAO]

Rawgrim wrote...

jkflipflopDAO wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...

jkflipflopDAO wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...

neoskeptic2 wrote...

Traumatic nightmares, I prefer to think he was representative of everything he couldn't save.

Best proof is the beacon on Thessia. Shepard wasn't identified as indoctrinated, while Kai Leng was easily identifed as indoctrinated.

Shep isn`t indoctrinated at that time. He is showing symptoms, but isn`t fully indoctrinated. Indoctrination happens over time. Check the codex.

Soooo, he wasn't indoctrinated 10 minutes before shipping out to Earth? The Prothean VI asks you if you "are here to save me from indoctrinated forces". We know from the codex that a fast indoctrination turns people into mindless husks. For Shep to not know he's under their spell, they would have to have been working on him for quite some time. 

No, I'm afraid the Indoc Theory falls on it's face just as hard as the "real" ending.

He doesn`t get fully indoctrinated untill he picks anything but Destroy at the end. Adrenaline is known to speed up indoctrination. Running fast towards the beam, dodging explosions, a huge reaper straight infront of him.... And yes. They have been working on him for quite some time. There are plenty of signs of this during the game.

Right, and fighting a swath through reaper controlled Earth and taking out a destroyer on foot totally wouldn't trip his adrenaline. Talking to Star Child made Shep's juice flow, though. 

Riiiight.

You are missing the point on purpose.

No, you have your fingers in your ears and repeating "LA LA LA LA LA" on purpose.

[aliengmr1]

BioWare has debunked the theory already. At least in terms of it being planned. Suppose they could still run with it.

[Paragon Auducan]

It was in Arrival when Indoctrination began, he's hit by that energy blast (codex states this is way to Indoctrinate) by Object Rho. He's then stuck there for 2 days next to it. It's canonically the last thing to happen before Mass Effect 3.

Shepard then starts to see the Ventboy.

[Rawgrim]

jkflipflopDAO wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...

jkflipflopDAO wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...

jkflipflopDAO wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...

neoskeptic2 wrote...

Traumatic nightmares, I prefer to think he was representative of everything he couldn't save.

Best proof is the beacon on Thessia. Shepard wasn't identified as indoctrinated, while Kai Leng was easily identifed as indoctrinated.

Shep isn`t indoctrinated at that time. He is showing symptoms, but isn`t fully indoctrinated. Indoctrination happens over time. Check the codex.

Soooo, he wasn't indoctrinated 10 minutes before shipping out to Earth? The Prothean VI asks you if you "are here to save me from indoctrinated forces". We know from the codex that a fast indoctrination turns people into mindless husks. For Shep to not know he's under their spell, they would have to have been working on him for quite some time. 

No, I'm afraid the Indoc Theory falls on it's face just as hard as the "real" ending.

He doesn`t get fully indoctrinated untill he picks anything but Destroy at the end. Adrenaline is known to speed up indoctrination. Running fast towards the beam, dodging explosions, a huge reaper straight infront of him.... And yes. They have been working on him for quite some time. There are plenty of signs of this during the game.

Right, and fighting a swath through reaper controlled Earth and taking out a destroyer on foot totally wouldn't trip his adrenaline. Talking to Star Child made Shep's juice flow, though. 

Riiiight.

You are missing the point on purpose.

No, you have your fingers in your ears and repeating "LA LA LA LA LA" on purpose.

Nice trolling.

[AdmiralJacket]

I'm going to pretend that Shepard is only seeing that poster with the boy's image on it out of extreme grief or from the beginnings of indoctrination. There is too much evidence to make me flat-out debunk the theory.

[Rawgrim]

Paragon Auducan wrote...

It was in Arrival when Indoctrination began, he's hit by that energy blast (codex states this is way to Indoctrinate) by Object Rho. He's then stuck there for 2 days next to it. It's canonically the last thing to happen before Mass Effect 3.

Shepard then starts to see the Ventboy.

Good point.

[KorPhaeron]

jkflipflopDAO wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...

neoskeptic2 wrote...

Traumatic nightmares, I prefer to think he was representative of everything he couldn't save.

Best proof is the beacon on Thessia. Shepard wasn't identified as indoctrinated, while Kai Leng was easily identifed as indoctrinated.

Shep isn`t indoctrinated at that time. He is showing symptoms, but isn`t fully indoctrinated. Indoctrination happens over time. Check the codex.

Soooo, he wasn't indoctrinated 10 minutes before shipping out to Earth? The Prothean VI asks you if you "are here to save me from indoctrinated forces". We know from the codex that a fast indoctrination turns people into mindless husks. For Shep to not know he's under their spell, they would have to have been working on him for quite some time. 

No, I'm afraid the Indoc Theory falls on it's face just as hard as the "real" ending.

Man , you should stop, you cant win here. Think about it , the intoc is a made up fanfiction to the ending, you cant contradict it, cause its made up in the first place so no logical thinking could work to bebunck it.

Its like me saying the whole trilogy was just a made up story the Grandfather was telling the kid, I can say that and nobody could disprove it.

[Bvenged]

The child was real and the nightmares are exactly that, a side effect of early post-traumatic stress disorder which shepard shows symptoms of. Caused by the guilt and dismay of so many lost around the commander.

Indoctrination is all about taking control of the mind, and harbringer utilises Shepards sorrow and troubled thoughts over the dead child like a pro. He uses the child plaguing sheps mind as an avatar, to hit home his true goals: For shepard to be thrown into disarray when it comes to decision making; something shepard was supposed to be so good at. By preventing any rational thought process Harbringer can finally stop shepard and the war, spinning it in his favour.

...and as far as I'm concerned, the indoctrination only takes place teh monent you get KO'd by a giant liquid-metal speed o' light red Reaper Laz0r. Harbringer is teh ring-leader of the reapers so I'm assuming his indoctrination effects are much more instant. Like instant porridge gets cooked quicker than making your own oats (bad simile).

Modifié par Bvenged, 17 mars 2012 - 01:19 .

[Reptillius]

Maj.Pain007 wrote...

Victia wrote...

I believe that the theory is that the boy is real in the first scene (playing with the shuttle) and a side effect of indoctrination after that

I Disagree no one tries to help the child its bs. What adult doesn't help a child right away in that situation?

I have seen real life situations where an adult that is not that childs immediate parent ignore or even cause harm to somebody smaller and younger to them jsut for the sake of saving their own skin. Thinking only about themselves.

[CitizenSnips]

The indoctrination theory seems to make the most sense when it starts after Harbinger's lazerbeamz. You know, when the entire story, continuity, and logic itself starts falling apart.

[Alamar2078]

redplague wrote...

I noticed the picture of the boy from Earth on the memorial wall in the Citadel.  It's right in the centre at the bottom.  Other people in the game must have noticed this picture as they would have just placed another picture there in front of it.  So this debunks the theory that no one else but Sheperd notices the boy.

I saw the same picture but I don't believe that does anything to the theory itself.  Part of the indoctrination could simply be to use your own memories against yourself.

[Njald]

How do you know that the picture is really showing the child? You're still watching it from Shepards eyes?

[Paragon Auducan]

If Indoctrination can make you see Ghosts it can certainly make you see pictures of ones

[Rawgrim]

Could be the reapers killed the kid weeks ago, and is just using his image. Who knows.

[bwFex]

redplague wrote...

I noticed the picture of the boy from Earth on the memorial wall in the Citadel.  It's right in the centre at the bottom.  Other people in the game must have noticed this picture as they would have just placed another picture there in front of it.  So this debunks the theory that no one else but Sheperd notices the boy.

1) It's possible the picture is part of the illusion, or...

2) The boy was a real boy, who really died on earth, but Harbinger is using his image to torment Shepard, anyway.


I appreciate counter-arguments, but please don't use the word "debunked" unless you actually have something that undeniably refutes the entire theory.

Modifié par bwFex, 17 mars 2012 - 01:19 .

[SolidisusSnake1]

You cant use logic against those who support the theory OP, you just can't.

[Rawgrim]

Paragon Auducan wrote...

If Indoctrination can make you see Ghosts it can certainly make you see pictures of ones

It also makes you hear whispers (that bit increases per dream), and you also hear alien voices in your head. Notice on Rannoch, when Shep is talking to the reaper. Tali walks about and doesn`t seem to even notice the conversation.

[bwFex]

SolidisusSnake1 wrote...

You cant use logic against those who support the theory OP, you just can't.

You most certainly can. You just need to find a much more convincing argument than this one, which has already been debated/refuted several times.

Right now, the strongest argument against the indoctrination theory is the text message from bioware at the end of the game which seems to suggest you really did beat the reapers. Everything else I've seen has been easily refuted. That one, I still don't have an answer for.

Modifié par bwFex, 17 mars 2012 - 01:20 .

[Paragon Auducan]

You also hear voices of dead squadmates, last I checked Mording was an Alien.

Modifié par Paragon Auducan, 17 mars 2012 - 01:20 .

[Rawgrim]

SolidisusSnake1 wrote...

You cant use logic against those who support the theory OP, you just can't.

Why would the reapers use every weapon available against Shep. But leave out their greatest weapon, indoctrination?

[KorPhaeron]

lol I love how every1 skips my post, since , what I said is so true, the indoc theory is logical fallacy, since its made up fan-fiction.

Its like someone saying , can you disprove the existence of God

Modifié par KorPhaeron, 17 mars 2012 - 01:21 .

[-PG-Skyre]

IF Shep was indoctrinated then there would be a point to it. Anyone ever seen the Reapers indoc someone just to knock them out and give them trippy dreams?...really?

This is just a case of people grabbing at straws in an attempt to make sense of a horrid end to the game.

[Paragon Auducan]

-PG-Skyre wrote...

IF Shep was indoctrinated then there would be a point to it. Anyone ever seen the Reapers indoc someone just to knock them out and give them trippy dreams?...really?

This is just a case of people grabbing at straws in an attempt to make sense of a horrid end to the game.

The 'dream' is the Indoctrination attempt itself.