232 réponses à ce sujet

[Aligalipe]

I don't believe in Indoctrination theory but, that picture doesn't prove anything. It can be Shepard's imagination.

[IanPolaris]

Rawgrim wrote...

jkflipflopDAO wrote...

So to get this straight, Shepard has been indoctrinated since Object Rho. But he's only just a teeny-weenie bit indoctrinated so that the Prothean VI doesn't flag when it sees him, but he's indoctrinated enough to not know the difference between reality and fantasy. But somehow that's not really indoctrinated. Except he really is indoctrinated. Except not really.

Yeah, this one is bulletproof alright.

It works slowly. Benezzia says this, the rachni queen says this also. If you are fully indoctrinated, wich takes time (says so in the codex), you are pretty much all reaper. Wich the VI can now detect. Helps to read the codex sometimes.

Rana, the Assari scientest you run into on Virmire also says this as does Shialla on Feros.

-Polaris

[CavScout]

IanPolaris wrote...

jkflipflopDAO wrote...

So to get this straight, Shepard has been indoctrinated since Object Rho. But he's only just a teeny-weenie bit indoctrinated so that the Prothean VI doesn't flag when it sees him, but he's indoctrinated enough to not know the difference between reality and fantasy. But somehow that's not really indoctrinated. Except he really is indoctrinated. Except not really.

Yeah, this one is bulletproof alright.

Please stop it.  Indoctrination is a slow process (at least if you want to keep the subject useful) and can be resisted for months if not years.  Saren did.  So did the Illusive man.  Given Shepard's canonical willpower, there is no reason to think that any attempt to indoctrinate Shepard wouldn't also take years, and we KNOW that the prothean ability to sense indoctrinated people is extremely fallable.  There is no reason to think that Shepard when on Thessia was far enough along to detect.  Essentially Shepard was not (yet) under reaper control and thus did not flag as indoctrinated.  Kai Leng was (as was the Illusive man) and so did.  Simple as that.

-Polaris

How do we know this?

[Rawgrim]

CavScout wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

jkflipflopDAO wrote...

So to get this straight, Shepard has been indoctrinated since Object Rho. But he's only just a teeny-weenie bit indoctrinated so that the Prothean VI doesn't flag when it sees him, but he's indoctrinated enough to not know the difference between reality and fantasy. But somehow that's not really indoctrinated. Except he really is indoctrinated. Except not really.

Yeah, this one is bulletproof alright.

Please stop it.  Indoctrination is a slow process (at least if you want to keep the subject useful) and can be resisted for months if not years.  Saren did.  So did the Illusive man.  Given Shepard's canonical willpower, there is no reason to think that any attempt to indoctrinate Shepard wouldn't also take years, and we KNOW that the prothean ability to sense indoctrinated people is extremely fallable.  There is no reason to think that Shepard when on Thessia was far enough along to detect.  Essentially Shepard was not (yet) under reaper control and thus did not flag as indoctrinated.  Kai Leng was (as was the Illusive man) and so did.  Simple as that.

-Polaris

How do we know this?

Because they lost because their leaders got indoctrinated....

[Tiax Rules All]

My sig, click it. If you still dont understand and accept it after watching then well. Have fun wallowing in your stubborness and anger.

[KorPhaeron]

CavScout wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...

CavScout wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...

CavScout wrote...

You can not convince people that the image of Jesus in the toast is just a random pattern... same with this theory folks are clinging to.

Its alot easier to belive in space magic, isn`t it?

No harder than the space magic botics used the entire game series.

Biotics and indoctrination are both explained in the Codex, though. Space magic isn`t.

Lack of Codex = space magic now?

An earlier post:

No the Codex is just fiction, the whole game is fiction, we try to
explain the energy wave at the and as space magic cause no other
explanation is given even in the game. 

If the devs had said the
wave was made up of specially created nano-machines that in one ending
bind themselves to organic dna, in another take control of the reapers
on the atomic level and let you control them and another just shut down
the reapers.

No1 would have a problem with that, but since the devs said nothing, we have space magic.

The thing is the whole game is space magic to begin with, its just explained space magic with the codex.

[CavScout]

Rawgrim wrote...

CavScout wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

jkflipflopDAO wrote...

So to get this straight, Shepard has been indoctrinated since Object Rho. But he's only just a teeny-weenie bit indoctrinated so that the Prothean VI doesn't flag when it sees him, but he's indoctrinated enough to not know the difference between reality and fantasy. But somehow that's not really indoctrinated. Except he really is indoctrinated. Except not really.

Yeah, this one is bulletproof alright.

Please stop it.  Indoctrination is a slow process (at least if you want to keep the subject useful) and can be resisted for months if not years.  Saren did.  So did the Illusive man.  Given Shepard's canonical willpower, there is no reason to think that any attempt to indoctrinate Shepard wouldn't also take years, and we KNOW that the prothean ability to sense indoctrinated people is extremely fallable.  There is no reason to think that Shepard when on Thessia was far enough along to detect.  Essentially Shepard was not (yet) under reaper control and thus did not flag as indoctrinated.  Kai Leng was (as was the Illusive man) and so did.  Simple as that.

-Polaris

How do we know this?

Because they lost because their leaders got indoctrinated....

So, you don't know. Supposition is great... I guess.

[CavScout]

KorPhaeron wrote...

CavScout wrote...

Lack of Codex = space magic now?

An earlier post:

No the Codex is just fiction, the whole game is fiction, we try to
explain the energy wave at the and as space magic cause no other
explanation is given even in the game. 

If the devs had said the
wave was made up of specially created nano-machines that in one ending
bind themselves to organic dna, in another take control of the reapers
on the atomic level and let you control them and another just shut down
the reapers.

No1 would have a problem with that, but since the devs said nothing, we have space magic.

The thing is the whole game is space magic to begin with, its just explained space magic with the codex.

We have "space magic" simply because folks think it's an insult or dig at the ending.

[Rawgrim]

KorPhaeron wrote...

CavScout wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...

CavScout wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...

CavScout wrote...

You can not convince people that the image of Jesus in the toast is just a random pattern... same with this theory folks are clinging to.

Its alot easier to belive in space magic, isn`t it?

No harder than the space magic botics used the entire game series.

Biotics and indoctrination are both explained in the Codex, though. Space magic isn`t.

Lack of Codex = space magic now?

An earlier post:

No the Codex is just fiction, the whole game is fiction, we try to
explain the energy wave at the and as space magic cause no other
explanation is given even in the game. 

If the devs had said the
wave was made up of specially created nano-machines that in one ending
bind themselves to organic dna, in another take control of the reapers
on the atomic level and let you control them and another just shut down
the reapers.

No1 would have a problem with that, but since the devs said nothing, we have space magic.

The thing is the whole game is space magic to begin with, its just explained space magic with the codex.

In mass effect, biotics and such are real. Thats why its fleshed out in the codex. Its what fiction writers call "realism within an unrealistic setting". You explain to the readers\\viewers how this setting works. What is in it, how things work, who is in charge. All that stuff. So if it is the codex its "real" in this setting.

[Cooling85]

Well, seems liked it IS now debunked: social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/324/index/10089946

EDIT: Sorry, didn't see this has already been brought up

Modifié par Cooling85, 17 mars 2012 - 01:57 .

[Rawgrim]

CavScout wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...

CavScout wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

jkflipflopDAO wrote...

So to get this straight, Shepard has been indoctrinated since Object Rho. But he's only just a teeny-weenie bit indoctrinated so that the Prothean VI doesn't flag when it sees him, but he's indoctrinated enough to not know the difference between reality and fantasy. But somehow that's not really indoctrinated. Except he really is indoctrinated. Except not really.

Yeah, this one is bulletproof alright.

Please stop it.  Indoctrination is a slow process (at least if you want to keep the subject useful) and can be resisted for months if not years.  Saren did.  So did the Illusive man.  Given Shepard's canonical willpower, there is no reason to think that any attempt to indoctrinate Shepard wouldn't also take years, and we KNOW that the prothean ability to sense indoctrinated people is extremely fallable.  There is no reason to think that Shepard when on Thessia was far enough along to detect.  Essentially Shepard was not (yet) under reaper control and thus did not flag as indoctrinated.  Kai Leng was (as was the Illusive man) and so did.  Simple as that.

-Polaris

How do we know this?

Because they lost because their leaders got indoctrinated....

So, you don't know. Supposition is great... I guess.

Lavik, your prothean squadmate, says so in the game.

[KorPhaeron]

CavScout wrote...

KorPhaeron wrote...

CavScout wrote...

Lack of Codex = space magic now?

An earlier post:

No the Codex is just fiction, the whole game is fiction, we try to
explain the energy wave at the and as space magic cause no other
explanation is given even in the game. 

If the devs had said the
wave was made up of specially created nano-machines that in one ending
bind themselves to organic dna, in another take control of the reapers
on the atomic level and let you control them and another just shut down
the reapers.

No1 would have a problem with that, but since the devs said nothing, we have space magic.

The thing is the whole game is space magic to begin with, its just explained space magic with the codex.

We have "space magic" simply because folks think it's an insult or dig at the ending.

Yes because the ending isnt explained, if it was, alot of people could still hate it, but they would understand it.

[KorPhaeron]

Below, please see a message from Mass Effect 3 Executive Producer Casey Hudson in regards to discussion on the conclusion of Mass Effect 3:


There’s been a lot of discussion and debate about the conclusion of Mass Effect 3, so I thought I’d share my perspective with you here. I’ll avoid outright spoilers, but I’d still recommend finishing the game and experiencing it for yourself before reading this.

For the last eight years, Mass Effect has been a labor of love for our team; love for the characters we’ve created, for the medium of video games, and for the fans that have supported us. For us and for you, Mass Effect 3 had to live up to a lot of expectations, not only for a great gaming experience, but for a resolution to the countless storylines and decisions you’ve made as a player since the journey began in 2007. So we designed Mass Effect 3 to be a series of endings to key plots and storylines, each culminating in scenes that show you the consequences of your actions. You then carry the knowledge of these consequences with you as you complete the final moments of your journey.

We always intended that the scale of the conflict and the underlying theme of sacrifice would lead to a bittersweet ending—to do otherwise would betray the agonizing decisions Shepard had to make along the way. Still, we wanted to give players the chance to experience an inspiring and uplifting ending; in a story where you face a hopeless struggle for basic survival, we see the final moments and imagery as offering victory and hope in the context of sacrifice and reflection.

We've had some incredibly positive reactions to Mass Effect 3, from the New York Times declaring it “a gripping, coherent triumph”, to Penny Arcade calling it “an amazing accomplishment”, to emails and tweets from players who have given us the most profound words of appreciation we've ever received.

But we also recognize that some of our most passionate fans needed more closure, more answers, and more time to say goodbye to their stories—and these comments are equally valid. Player feedback such as this has always been an essential ingredient in the development of the series.

I am extremely proud of what this team has accomplished, from the first art concepts for the Mass Effect universe to the final moments of Mass Effect 3. But we didn't do it on our own. Over the course of the series, Mass Effect has been a shared experience between the development team and our fans—not just a shared experience in playing the games, but in designing and developing them. An outpouring of love for Garrus and Tali led to their inclusion as love interests in Mass Effect 2. A request for deeper RPG systems led to key design changes in Mass Effect 3. Your feedback has always mattered. Mass Effect is a collaboration between developers and players, and we continue to listen.

So where do we go from here? Throughout the next year, we will support Mass Effect 3 by working on new content. And we’ll keep listening, because your insights and constructive feedback will help determine what that content should be. This is not the last you’ll hear of Commander Shepard.

We look forward to your continued support and involvement as we work together to shape the remaining experiences in the story of the Mass Effect trilogy.

Thanks for taking this journey with us.

Casey Hudson

Modifié par KorPhaeron, 17 mars 2012 - 02:00 .

[Rawgrim]

Cooling85 wrote...

Well, seems liked it IS now debunked: social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/324/index/10089946

EDIT: Sorry, didn't see this has already been brought up

Where does this debunk it?

[Darth_Trethon]

I would say shepard's mind is is influenced by the reapers trying to indoctrinate him/her through the apparition of the child and the dreams and the ending sequence which is one last final attempt to save themselves but shepard's mind is too strong to be controlled hence he/she is not a subject of the reapers' will which is what the prothean VI would detect.

[Paragon Auducan]

Doesn't debunk anything as he didn't say ANYTHING that we didn't already know.

[Pobatti]

redplague wrote...

I noticed the picture of the boy from Earth on the memorial wall in the Citadel.  It's right in the centre at the bottom.  Other people in the game must have noticed this picture as they would have just placed another picture there in front of it.  So this debunks the theory that no one else but Sheperd notices the boy.

Sometimes I think people just post 'debunked' topics just because they choose not to individually believe them and for some reason seem to think that it's vitally important that anybody else currently 'satisfied' with that rationale is dragged back into the land of inexplicable behaviour and plotholes that we've come to loathe.

In this case, there's no lateral thinking whatsoever.

Just because the boy's picture was displayed in the memorial says nothing.

• He could have really existed at some point and Shepard never saw him.
• He could have really died at the beginning, and the Reapers saw Shepard witness him die.
• How do we know that anyone else other than Shepard can see the same image there?

If Shepard's mind can be manipulated to the point he can see 'ghosts', then surely his brain can also be tampered with to the point where he 'thinks' he's seeing the boy's image on the wall - but there may be either nothing there, or he can't see what the picture really shows.

In other words - this Indoctrination Theory is impossible to debunk, so folks need to stop trying. We won't know for sure what the real deal is until Bioware unveil more content that explores the ending in more detail. Even the Codex entry for Indoctrination is not 100% reliable, being as it is based on records and observations made by a person or persons who either are not indoctrinated or have questionable levels of the indoctrination effect.

While there's no statement in the Indoctrination Codex entry confirming actual direct implantation and replacement of visual information information in the brain - it doesn't say that can't happen either.

[Rawgrim]

All he said that the recognize the fact that players want MORE closure. That bit is deffinatly true, in my case as well. The ending was lacking.

[ArkkAngel007]

Paragon Auducan wrote...

Doesn't debunk anything as he didn't say ANYTHING at all.

FTFY

[Rawgrim]

Pobatti wrote...

redplague wrote...

I noticed the picture of the boy from Earth on the memorial wall in the Citadel.  It's right in the centre at the bottom.  Other people in the game must have noticed this picture as they would have just placed another picture there in front of it.  So this debunks the theory that no one else but Sheperd notices the boy.

Sometimes I think people just post 'debunked' topics just because they choose not to individually believe them and for some reason seem to think that it's vitally important that anybody else currently 'satisfied' with that rationale is dragged back into the land of inexplicable behaviour and plotholes that we've come to loathe.

In this case, there's no lateral thinking whatsoever.

Just because the boy's picture was displayed in the memorial says nothing.

• He could have really existed at some point and Shepard never saw him.
• He could have really died at the beginning, and the Reapers saw Shepard witness him die.
• How do we know that anyone else other than Shepard can see the same image there?

If Shepard's mind can be manipulated to the point he can see 'ghosts', then surely his brain can also be tampered with to the point where he 'thinks' he's seeing the boy's image on the wall - but there may be either nothing there, or he can't see what the picture really shows.

In other words - this Indoctrination Theory is impossible to debunk, so folks need to stop trying. We won't know for sure what the real deal is until Bioware unveil more content that explores the ending in more detail. Even the Codex entry for Indoctrination is not 100% reliable, being as it is based on records and observations made by a person or persons who either are not indoctrinated or have questionable levels of the indoctrination effect.

While there's no statement in the Indoctrination Codex entry confirming actual direct implantation and replacement of visual information information in the brain - it doesn't say that can't happen either.

Great post.

[Darth_Trethon]

Paragon Auducan wrote...

Doesn't debunk anything as he didn't say ANYTHING that we didn't already know.

Exactly this, he didn't even touch the issue or talk about the child.

But on a side note this gives me hope:

"But we also recognize that some of our most passionate fans needed more closure, more answers, and more time to say goodbye to their stories—and these comments are equally valid. Player feedback such as this has always been an essential ingredient in the development of the series."

What that tells me is: look forward to ending DLC....and all I got to say abou that is hell yes.

Modifié par Darth_Trethon, 17 mars 2012 - 02:09 .

[Rawgrim]

I`d like a DLC where we get to help rebuild the galaxy. Maybe doing some missions, some diplomacy. Catching up with old squadmates.

[Darth_Trethon]

Rawgrim wrote...

I`d like a DLC where we get to help rebuild the galaxy. Maybe doing some missions, some diplomacy. Catching up with old squadmates.

Reunion with squad and LI along with a propper memorial/burrial for Legion and EDI is what I want.

Modifié par Darth_Trethon, 17 mars 2012 - 02:12 .

[Rawgrim]

Darth_Trethon wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...

I`d like a DLC where we get to help rebuild the galaxy. Maybe doing some missions, some diplomacy. Catching up with old squadmates.

Reunion with squad and LI along with a propper memorial/burrial for Legion and EDI.

Well..if the indoctrination theory holds true, EDI is still alive. I would like to see a statue of Mordin on Tuchanca, though. That guy went out like a proper hero.

[TexasToast712]

 There is also a picture of drell looking exactly like Thane, and a Turian. OMG!