228 réponses à ce sujet

[incinerator950]

As crappy as Baldur's Age: Origins gameplay was, it was more of an RPG then all three ME's combined.

[Ostagar2011]

lumen11 wrote...

It's not like DA:O had such a brilliant ending. In many ways the climax of the game was the landsmeet. Which I  actually rather liked, but it goes to show that there is no such thing as straightforward conventions.

What symbolism is there to red green blue shades of depression? A pointless, bleak end could have meant something if I could see some allegory that was being built up. I don't.

DA:O was not meant to be the end of anything (least of all a trilogy finale). It was called Origins and the second installment was due in 2011. Most people thought the story would go on, and decisions would continue to play out (hah! we sure fell for that, didn't we!) And besides ... DA:O had a brilliant ending. You could chose between disney (marry Alistair or Anora) all the way to tragic (refuse the dark ritual so that no evil god baby would be born to save your hide) and sacrifice yourself to save Ferelden from the real danger (Flemeth and her plans). You said farewell to all your companions before the battle - one of the most poignant moments in gaming history for half a decade. You chose the king and the coronation boon. Many of your key (and not so key) decisions played out in the epilogue slides. The music changed as the credits rolled depending on your choices. Ah, well. To each his own, I guess.

Modifié par Ostagar2011, 17 mars 2012 - 06:46 .

[Subject M]

lumen11 wrote...

While he has a valid point and articulates it very well, I also disagree.

For one, in the context of a trilogy the whole game is pretty much the ending, so you can't simply apply his arguments to the last few minutes of ME3.

Also, it's perfectly valid to focus on symbolism for an ending, instead of purely a conclusion of the gamer's game experience, especially for a scifi game.

Finally, dramatic, even outright tragic endings can be very cathartic. So no, even a computer game doesn't have to end on a positive note. By the way, in many ways ME3 does end on a positive note.

Forgive me, but the choice does not stand between "symbolism" or  "purely a conclusion of the gamer's game experience" as mutually exclusive and all-encompassing endings. 

They can be integrated without nullifing choice.

While "catharsis" no doubt is satisfying for people who likes feeling bad, its not something that sits well with the rest of us in a game with a story like ME3.

Modifié par Subject M, 17 mars 2012 - 06:49 .

[LilyasAvalon]

Ostagar2011 wrote...

lumen11 wrote...

It's not like DA:O had such a brilliant ending. In many ways the climax of the game was the landsmeet. Which I  actually rather liked, but it goes to show that there is no such thing as straightforward conventions.

What symbolism is there to red green blue shades of depression? A pointless, bleak end could have meant something if I could see some allegory that was being built up. I don't.

DA:O was not meant to be the end of anything (least of all a trilogy finale). It was called Origins and the second installment was due in 2011. Most people thought the story would go on, and decisions would continue to play out (hah! we sure fell for that, didn't we!) And besides ... DA:O had a brilliant ending. You could chose between disney (marry Alistair or Anora) all the way to tragic (refuse the dark ritual so that no evil god baby would be born to save your hide) and sacrifice yourself to save Ferelden from the real danger (Flemeth and her plans). You said farewell to all your companions before the battle - one of the most poignant moments in gaming history for half a decade. You chose the king and the coronation boon. Many of your key (and not so key) decisions played out in the epilogue slides. The music changed as the credits rolled depending on your choices. Ah, well. To each his own, I guess.

Pfft. Speak for yourself, there was nothing Disney about having to watch my Alistair get straddled by Morrigan.

[incinerator950]

Ostagar2011 wrote...

lumen11 wrote...

It's not like DA:O had such a brilliant ending. In many ways the climax of the game was the landsmeet. Which I  actually rather liked, but it goes to show that there is no such thing as straightforward conventions.

What symbolism is there to red green blue shades of depression? A pointless, bleak end could have meant something if I could see some allegory that was being built up. I don't.You said farewell to all your companions before the battle - one of the most poignant moments in gaming history for half a decade.

Red to symbolize Wrath, destroying Synthetic life and burning down the Citadel.  Blue for peaceful overide and Control, taking the minds of the Reapers and calling off the Cycle indefinitely.  Green to symbolize an alien peace, fuse all life in the Galaxy with a new fusion.

You said farewell before Hammer made the push to the Conduit.  Not only did you say farewell before talking to Anderson, you gave a speech to encourage your Unit.  

If you're going to nitpick the ending, at least remember all of the points of it.

[Blastback]

LilyasAvalon wrote...

Ostagar2011 wrote...

lumen11 wrote...

It's not like DA:O had such a brilliant ending. In many ways the climax of the game was the landsmeet. Which I  actually rather liked, but it goes to show that there is no such thing as straightforward conventions.

What symbolism is there to red green blue shades of depression? A pointless, bleak end could have meant something if I could see some allegory that was being built up. I don't.

DA:O was not meant to be the end of anything (least of all a trilogy finale). It was called Origins and the second installment was due in 2011. Most people thought the story would go on, and decisions would continue to play out (hah! we sure fell for that, didn't we!) And besides ... DA:O had a brilliant ending. You could chose between disney (marry Alistair or Anora) all the way to tragic (refuse the dark ritual so that no evil god baby would be born to save your hide) and sacrifice yourself to save Ferelden from the real danger (Flemeth and her plans). You said farewell to all your companions before the battle - one of the most poignant moments in gaming history for half a decade. You chose the king and the coronation boon. Many of your key (and not so key) decisions played out in the epilogue slides. The music changed as the credits rolled depending on your choices. Ah, well. To each his own, I guess.

Pfft. Speak for yourself, there was nothing Disney about having to watch my Alistair get straddled by Morrigan.

The City Elf origin alone prevents Origins from having any "Disney" tone.

[Gwtheyrn]

LilyasAvalon wrote...

Ostagar2011 wrote...

lumen11 wrote...

It's not like DA:O had such a brilliant ending. In many ways the climax of the game was the landsmeet. Which I  actually rather liked, but it goes to show that there is no such thing as straightforward conventions.

What symbolism is there to red green blue shades of depression? A pointless, bleak end could have meant something if I could see some allegory that was being built up. I don't.

DA:O was not meant to be the end of anything (least of all a trilogy finale). It was called Origins and the second installment was due in 2011. Most people thought the story would go on, and decisions would continue to play out (hah! we sure fell for that, didn't we!) And besides ... DA:O had a brilliant ending. You could chose between disney (marry Alistair or Anora) all the way to tragic (refuse the dark ritual so that no evil god baby would be born to save your hide) and sacrifice yourself to save Ferelden from the real danger (Flemeth and her plans). You said farewell to all your companions before the battle - one of the most poignant moments in gaming history for half a decade. You chose the king and the coronation boon. Many of your key (and not so key) decisions played out in the epilogue slides. The music changed as the credits rolled depending on your choices. Ah, well. To each his own, I guess.

Pfft. Speak for yourself, there was nothing Disney about having to watch my Alistair get straddled by Morrigan.

That was a choice you made, though. It was neither pre-destined, arbitrary, or required. Unlike the ending of the Mass Effect trilogy, which was marinated in mediocrity.

[LilyasAvalon]

Gwtheyrn wrote...

LilyasAvalon wrote...

Pfft. Speak for yourself, there was nothing Disney about having to watch my Alistair get straddled by Morrigan.

That was a choice you made, though. It was neither pre-destined, arbitrary, or required. Unlike the ending of the Mass Effect trilogy, which was marinated in mediocrity.

 
And I stand by my choice, just like I stood by the choice of my Dalish to knock the Alistair who ditched her for the crowd out and sacrifice herself to the Archdemon.

I like my choices, all variations of them in DA:O.

I only got colours in ME3. :<

[Gatt9]

Atakuma wrote...

People need to stop deifying this man. He helped make DA:O which was a generic hodgepodge of fantasy cliches that was only saved by it's strong characters. The guy isn't any more talented than anyone currently working at bioware.

You seem a little confused.

Knowles was a man that helped make a game that redefined gaming (BG2),  and two games that did very well,  argueably did better than all 3 ME titles.

Since his leaving,  Bioware's titles have become significantly more derivative,  if not outright bad.  Their user scores reflect deep dissatisfaction with the products.

If you want,  we can use the user scores to do a comparitive analysis?  I can already tell you it's not going to end well for your arguement though,  since all DA2,  ME3,  and TOR are under a 6.0 rating,  and 2 of them will be lucky to average to 5.0.

I'm not saying people aren't talented at Bioware,  but I am saying that it's really obvious which direction Bioware's games are going since he left.

[incinerator950]

I don't recall BG2 redefining gaming. I recall another narrative using D&D as gaming mechanics.

By that definition, ME 1 was a mediocre spiritual successor to Kotor like Baldur's Age: Origins was meant to be a successor of Dragon Gate.

[Ostagar2011]

incinerator950 wrote...

Red to symbolize Wrath, destroying Synthetic life and burning down the Citadel.  Blue for peaceful overide and Control, taking the minds of the Reapers and calling off the Cycle indefinitely.  Green to symbolize an alien peace, fuse all life in the Galaxy with a new fusion.

You said farewell before Hammer made the push to the Conduit.  Not only did you say farewell before talking to Anderson, you gave a speech to encourage your Unit.  

If you're going to nitpick the ending, at least remember all of the points of it.

Sorry, my understanding of the word "symbolism" differs from yours. To me, the red, green, blue choices would be "symbolic" if the choices these colors represent was a common reality in war or love or whatever. Merge, destroy, control. Some sort of deeper metaphor. However these are themes I have only just learned about in ME, and find them hard to translate to life outside the game.

It would be like me designing a game where you pick: round = fly to your death, square = fall to your death and triangle = suffocate to death, and then say that "round", "square" and "triangle" were "symbolic".

[Rafe34]

Atakuma wrote...

People need to stop deifying this man. He helped make DA:O which was a generic hodgepodge of fantasy cliches that was only saved by it's strong characters. The guy isn't any more talented than anyone currently working at bioware.

Lol.

Dragon Age: Origins was a very satisfying experience and the vast majority of people who played it do not share your view. Sure it had cliches, but it was delivered brilliantly, had an entire spectrum of endings, and let you know what happened to Thedas as a result of your actions. It remains the best RPG I've played in a very long time.

The vast majority of people who played Mass Effect 3, otoh... well.  I don't really need to specify, do I?

[lumen11]

LilyasAvalon wrote...

Gwtheyrn wrote...

LilyasAvalon wrote...

Pfft. Speak for yourself, there was nothing Disney about having to watch my Alistair get straddled by Morrigan.

That was a choice you made, though. It was neither pre-destined, arbitrary, or required. Unlike the ending of the Mass Effect trilogy, which was marinated in mediocrity.

 
And I stand by my choice, just like I stood by the choice of my Dalish to knock the Alistair who ditched her for the crowd out and sacrifice herself to the Archdemon.

I like my choices, all variations of them in DA:O.

I only got colours in ME3. :<

This is not just to you but some of the others too.

I really don't get why people want to insist it's only about colours. The difference between the choices is huge. The fact that the game doesn't show you these differences doesn't make it any less so. The colors were there as a nice reversal of the conventianal paragon versus renegade paradigm. I do get why people would like something less conceptual, but it really isn't that out of place in the ME universe.

[Rafe34]

LilyasAvalon wrote...

Gwtheyrn wrote...

LilyasAvalon wrote...

Pfft. Speak for yourself, there was nothing Disney about having to watch my Alistair get straddled by Morrigan.

That was a choice you made, though. It was neither pre-destined, arbitrary, or required. Unlike the ending of the Mass Effect trilogy, which was marinated in mediocrity.

 
And I stand by my choice, just like I stood by the choice of my Dalish to knock the Alistair who ditched her for the crowd out and sacrifice herself to the Archdemon.

I like my choices, all variations of them in DA:O.

I only got colours in ME3. :<

Well said. The game made you think and actually presented you with a difficult decision.

Unlike ME3, which was just, "Which color of ending would you like?"

[Ostagar2011]

LilyasAvalon wrote...

Ostagar2011 wrote...

lumen11 wrote...

It's not like DA:O had such a brilliant ending. In many ways the climax of the game was the landsmeet. Which I  actually rather liked, but it goes to show that there is no such thing as straightforward conventions.

What symbolism is there to red green blue shades of depression? A pointless, bleak end could have meant something if I could see some allegory that was being built up. I don't.

DA:O was not meant to be the end of anything (least of all a trilogy finale). It was called Origins and the second installment was due in 2011. Most people thought the story would go on, and decisions would continue to play out (hah! we sure fell for that, didn't we!) And besides ... DA:O had a brilliant ending. You could chose between disney (marry Alistair or Anora) all the way to tragic (refuse the dark ritual so that no evil god baby would be born to save your hide) and sacrifice yourself to save Ferelden from the real danger (Flemeth and her plans). You said farewell to all your companions before the battle - one of the most poignant moments in gaming history for half a decade. You chose the king and the coronation boon. Many of your key (and not so key) decisions played out in the epilogue slides. The music changed as the credits rolled depending on your choices. Ah, well. To each his own, I guess.

Pfft. Speak for yourself, there was nothing Disney about having to watch my Alistair get straddled by Morrigan.

Count yourself lucky that Knowles was in charge of that scene. If that scene was written by the quality of writers BioWare has today, he'd be straddling Dog to get you off the Ulitmate Sacrifice.

[Scorpgul]

The blind fanboys are hating on this post I see lol.

[PiEman]

RocketManSR2 wrote...

Zalbik wrote...

RocketManSR2 wrote...

Even if it's just an extended cut where we see Shepard playing with his/her son/daughter & Earth being rebuilt in the background at the very end, that's enough imo.

No crap...its such a shame

Maybe for some symmetry, have the child be playing with a model ship just like the kid from the opening of the game.

See, now here's an ending I can agree with.

I love it when a story bookends itself, especially at the end of a long trilogy.

Like at the end of Revenge of the Sith when Owen is holding Luke and looking into the binary sunset. Non-chronologically speaking, this bookended perfectly with Luke doing the same near the beginning of A New Hope. It's one of the things Lucas did right with the prequels.

People just bash any kind of traditional storytelling as corny nowadays, but if it's done right, or with its own unique spin on it, it really can have an impact.

But instead of working to perfect the art of endings, people just do things purely for the sake of being different, and call themselves right for doing so because...really, just because it's different. Not good, just different.

[Rafe34]

lumen11 wrote...

LilyasAvalon wrote...

Gwtheyrn wrote...

LilyasAvalon wrote...

Pfft. Speak for yourself, there was nothing Disney about having to watch my Alistair get straddled by Morrigan.

That was a choice you made, though. It was neither pre-destined, arbitrary, or required. Unlike the ending of the Mass Effect trilogy, which was marinated in mediocrity.

 
And I stand by my choice, just like I stood by the choice of my Dalish to knock the Alistair who ditched her for the crowd out and sacrifice herself to the Archdemon.

I like my choices, all variations of them in DA:O.

I only got colours in ME3. :<

This is not just to you but some of the others too.

I really don't get why people want to insist it's only about colours. The difference between the choices is huge. The fact that the game doesn't show you these differences doesn't make it any less so. The colors were there as a nice reversal of the conventianal paragon versus renegade paradigm. I do get why people would like something less conceptual, but it really isn't that out of place in the ME universe.

In every ending, Shepard gives up and accepts the leader of the enemy's three options.
In every ending, the Mass Effect relays are destroyed.
In every ending, the fleets that you just united are now all stranded in the Sol system, with only FTL travel, and so they will take years to get back to their home-worlds, if they get back at all- starvation could be a factor with dextro-based organisms.
In every ending, the galaxy is no longer a united hub of species, since it will take decades to traverse the galaxy.
In every ending, Joker deserts you at the end, and flees the battle.
In every ending, the Normandy is taken down by the Crucible, which leads one to wonder, what happened to the other ships?
In every ending, your crew is stranded on a garden world, where no one knows where they are, and thus either Tali and Garrus will starve to death, or your human crew will, since no planet will have both types of food available.

Modifié par Rafe34, 17 mars 2012 - 07:18 .

[AkiKishi]

<p>

Rafe34 wrote...

Atakuma wrote... People need to stop deifying this man. He helped make DA:O which was <strong>a generic hodgepodge of fantasy cliches that was only saved by it's strong characters</strong>. The guy isn't any more talented than anyone currently working at bioware.

Lol. Dragon Age: Origins was a very satisfying experience and the vast majority of people who played it do not share your view. Sure it had cliches, but it was delivered brilliantly, had an entire spectrum of endings, and let you know what happened to Thedas as a result of your actions. It remains the best RPG I've played in a very long time. The vast majority of people who played Mass Effect 3, otoh... well.  I don't really need to specify, do I?

</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>Isn't that a Bioware trademark?</strong></p>

[LilyasAvalon]

lumen11 wrote...
This is not just to you but some of the others too.

I really don't get why people want to insist it's only about colours. The difference between the choices is huge. The fact that the game doesn't show you these differences doesn't make it any less so. The colors were there as a nice reversal of the conventianal paragon versus renegade paradigm. I do get why people would like something less conceptual, but it really isn't that out of place in the ME universe.

I'd probably feel different if they actually DID show me cutscenes of the aftermath of those three choices, but I didn't get those, so...

[Rafe34]

LilyasAvalon wrote...

lumen11 wrote...
This is not just to you but some of the others too.

I really don't get why people want to insist it's only about colours. The difference between the choices is huge. The fact that the game doesn't show you these differences doesn't make it any less so. The colors were there as a nice reversal of the conventianal paragon versus renegade paradigm. I do get why people would like something less conceptual, but it really isn't that out of place in the ME universe.

I'd probably feel different if they actually DID show me cutscenes of the aftermath of those three choices, but I didn't get those, so...

I'm not sure we want to see those cutscenes.

[LilyasAvalon]

Ostagar2011 wrote...

Count yourself lucky that Knowles was in charge of that scene. If that scene was written by the quality of writers BioWare has today, he'd be straddling Dog to get you off the Ulitmate Sacrifice.

Do. not. want.

[LilyasAvalon]

Rafe34 wrote...

LilyasAvalon wrote...

I'd probably feel different if they actually DID show me cutscenes of the aftermath of those three choices, but I didn't get those, so...

I'm not sure we want to see those cutscenes.

I never said the feelings would be satisfied or good feelings.

[incinerator950]

LilyasAvalon wrote...

Ostagar2011 wrote...

Count yourself lucky that Knowles was in charge of that scene. If that scene was written by the quality of writers BioWare has today, he'd be straddling Dog to get you off the Ulitmate Sacrifice.

Do. not. want.

So it would be different then Garrus? 

[LilyasAvalon]

incinerator950 wrote...

So it would be different then Garrus? 

Silly person, Garrus is a turian, not a dog.