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[Avona]

 The top 10 ME3 flaws that, when combined, are fatal 

Played ME1 and ME2 at least 2X each, achieved out on the Xbox version of ME2 including all DLC. 

ME3 did lots of things right, but suffers from flaws that, when taken in totality, ruin not just the game but the franchise.  

Even if nobody else reads this, (don't care or TL;DR) I need to get this off my chest.  My take (from someone who romanced Liara in ME1 and reestablished our relationship in the ME2 DLC):

Technical:

1.  I can't import my FemShep's face?:  I made her 5 years ago - I was a loyal fan and continuity is important.  Don't tell me they didn't know about this problem.

2.  No way to transfer XBOX saves into PC saves:  Probably in a minority, but I upgraded my PC specifically so I could play the best Mass Effect from a visual perspective, and I have to jump through user-created hoops to import my XBOX save into the game?  This is for games that have cloud storage?  Come on.

3.  No voice commands for non-Kinect users:  You are specifically degrading the experience on other platforms because someone paid you a lot of money to do so.  Who are you making the game for, your fans or Microsoft?

Story:

4.  The Rachni:  I saved their race in ME1, having a hint that they might be needed in ME2/3.  Was teased about them being important in ME2.  What are they in ME3?  Not a fearsome force that almost took over the galaxy once before, but instead a queen who was manipulated into serving the enemy and, after I rescue her, merely a few more points in the "building the crucible" project.  Please. There good have been a giant armada of Rachni going up against the Reapers -  a hive organic mind against a hive-like synthetic race - amazing and cool. Instead, a number on a screen.

5.  The dream sequences - I get that they were trying to tell a story, but every time you give me a set piece in which I cannot act to change things, you are cramming it down my throat.  Why do I care about the child?  Why are you telling me how *my* Shepard dreams.  This is an RPG.  *I* make those choices.  *I* decide who I care about or don't care about.  At least give me a chance to interact and shape the experience.

Romance:

6.  No real ME1/ME2 romance payoff:  Even though it is clear from the beginning of the game that I have decided that Liara and I are to remain together, I still get to make a bunch of generic choices and a plot with her that sees me re-establish, again, our romantic relationship.  We were fully committed in ME2 DLC.  Why do I need to jump through all the hoops again?  Why not a payoff for being loyal for the entire series?  Make it a special romance ending.  Even at the end, when she is supposed to share memories with me (which could have included our ME1/ME2 times together) all I get is a white light.  Lazy.

7.  No chance for blue babies (happy ending, or at least being together even in death):  I don't think we need to have a 100% positive "Top Gun" type of ending here. Hell, the best RPG I have ever played Planescape: Torment, had a downer ending.  But, that ending was rich in all the ways that ME3 was poor.  Player choices up to that point mattered, and player choices at the end mattered, regardless that all endings had the same sad note.   I am not saying I expected them to show me and Liara in a house on some world with a bunch of little Asari running around.  But give us a chance to be together at the end - somehow, some way.  Or let me say goodbye one final time in a special way before I make the self-sacrifice (and no the final goodbye on earth doesn't count.  I didn't *know* that there was no going back, no chance for final words).  Even if it means we die together as the galaxy is transformed around us.  Same for any character and love interest.

RPG:
8.  A step backwards in RPG mechanics:  No puzzles to solve.  No mystery that requires your human brain to help unravel.  Little chance to employ unique and creative solutions to problems.  The solution for every problem in the game?  Kill bad guys, usually the same bad guys, in the same way.  At least ME2 had a few puzzles.  At least ME2 required you to make the right choices about what characters were to be used in what role in the suicide mission.

9.  No chance to talk my way out of the final resolution.  I did everything right, had 100% of everything, was a paragon of paragons.  Give me a chance to use that in my conversation at the end.  Instead, I have three choices, all bad, and the universe I had been acting on and shaping up to this point is revealed to be nothing.  Doesn't matter what I did to get to that point - all roads lead to 3 crappy choices where everything changes in ways *my* Shepard never would have chosen.  An example:  Fallout - New Vegas allowed me to completely bypass the major conflict at the end using my conversation skills.  An amazing payoff at the end for developing my character a certain way.  No chance at all in ME3.  A far cry from the series' RPG roots.

10.  The star child:  Much has been said about the ending.  I won't repeat it here, other than to say that I agree with nearly all the negative comments posted on boards and youtube.  It is an abomination that ruins the series as a whole.  The ending betrays everything the series has been about, and everything we've come to expect from a top-notch RPG from the likes of Bioware.  Battlestar Galactica is the closest I can come to for an equivalent example in another genre. 

Saddened and betrayed is all I can feel at the end.  

[Amonthes]

I didn't mind the endings as much as others seem to have, but I did feel they left a little too much to the imagination. While in one sense I like being able to speculate about what happens next, part of the fun of an RPG like this is seeing the (sometimes unexpected) consequences of your actions in the long run. Changing the endings would be a cop out. But building on the existing endings to show a more detailed outcome would give better closure for the storyline as a whole. For example, endings that address the fate of the galaxy, Shepard, and the Normandy crew while reflecting the player's choices could include:

If the reapers are destroyed:

• If Earth is destroyed, the galaxy's fleets fighting the reapers in the Sol system are stranded and perish. The galaxy's races survive at scattered colonies and devestated homeworlds. Galactic civilization collapses for thousands of years.
• If Earth is devestated, the fleet stranded in the Sol system fights for control of Earth's few remaining resources. If the genophage was cured, the krogan eventually take over and establish a galactic empire that provides some small measure of progress for the next thousand years. If the genophage was not cured, the asari fill this role.
• If the Earth is spared, the fleet stranded in the Sol system rebuild Earth with representatives from all the galaxy's races. Earth becomes a new galactic capital, building new technologies that allow viable intragalactic travel without mass relays. Shepard survives to eventually rescue the crew of the Normandy. If both the rachni were saved and the genophage cured, or neither, a balance of power is maintained, otherwise the new civilization is troubled by infighting. If peace was established between the quarians and the now-extinct geth, new AI are eventually developed as full citizens. If not, AI is strictly forbidden.

If the reapers are controlled:

• If the Earth is destroyed, the fleet in the Sol system becomes a new Migrant Fleet aboard the reapers, with each spending hundreds of years to return to their devestated homeworlds and colonies. Having expended the galaxy's accessible FTL fuel supplies, galactic civilization collapses for thousands of years. The Shepard-Reapers in each system become like local gods, worshipped by some and reviled by others.
• If the Earth is devestated, humans stay and rebuild while the other races return home. Over centuries while galactic civilzation slowly rebuilds, the Shepard-Reapers become the only viable mode of intragalactic travel, making them the de facto rulers of the galaxy.
• If the Earth is saved, the Shepard-Reapers and organic races develop a new galactic civilization quickly. A Shepard-Reaper rescues the Normandy's crew. Reaper-tech is used to develop viable FTL ships for intragalactic travel. If peace was established between the geth and quarians, organic and synthetic civilizations are integrated. If not, the Shepard-Repears (and geth, if alive) take the Terminus Systems while the organics take the rest of the galaxy.

For the synthesis ending:

• The universe's races quickly rebuild, including a new mass relay network. Wrex/Miranda/Jacob/Samara/Jack etc. eventually rescue the survivors of the Normandy crash, and take them to a new Citadel under construction. Shepherd's romantic interest narrates an ending about how Shepherd is now a part of him/her, and everyone.

[NR-Wesker]

-Create a 3D model of Tali's face from her gift/photo (Romance DLC).

-Epilogue revealing what became of your surviving squad mates and allies.

-Rescue Normandy survivors (Rescue DLC).

-Chance for Shepard (if he survives) to reunite with his LI.

Modifié par NR-Wesker, 18 mars 2012 - 05:57 .

[MrAtomica]

I apologize if this seems slightly out of place, I am reposting it from another thread. I believe it warrants being labeled a suggestion. I also apologize if the formatting is out of whack, I tried to fix it as best I could.

The Relays are tools. They are not inherently evil, nor are they at all dangerous to organic life. They are used for nefarious purposes because the Reapers will them to be used as such. I can accomplish the same withany weapon. There is little to back up the claim that the Relays "Must die!", apart from symbolism. I believe that they should be saveable in at least one ending, preferably one which involves contradicting the Starchild's assertions.

Yet, if they are annihilated, what then? Do you honestly believe that they will never be researched and rebuilt? For that matter, do you honestly believe that the Reapers will not be created again in some new form? The possibility for both eventualities is certainly there, regardless of your choice.

Thisis why the Catalyst's arguments, and the endings on the whole, fail. None of the conclusions offers any real closure or solution. It only delays, subverts, or actively achieves the Reaper's goals. My personal opinion is that the Destroy choice offers the greatest chance of a meaningful break in the cycle, but only because it is strongly implied that the Catalyst is destroyed along with his minions.

Think about this: in both Control and Synthesis, there is no guarantee that the Reapers will not eventually return. The Catalyst is presumed dead, but this is not fact. He could easily wrest control away from Shepard, or simply extend control over all life after Synthesis. The only hope that organic life has against this supposedly "inevitable" singularity event is to shape the evolution of machines in a positive way. Shepard accomplishes this with both the Geth and EDI, and it could be predicted that these two examples would become the norm of new synthetic races
created, if any ever were.

In this universe, synthetics will become self-aware. It has happened in at least two cycles, and the Reapers themselves are evidence of this. As such, it is imperative that synthetics be guided through their advancement with patience and open mindedness. The entire reason for the wars between synthetics and organics, to this point, has been the disparity between organics wantingto dominate synthetics, and synthetics becoming aware of their being used.

Think of it like this. You have a faithful pet. Suddenly, one day, that pet becomes aware of itself as a living being. It begins to question the purpose of its existence, the essence of its being alive. Would you be right to attack the pet? Would it not make more sense to teach the pet how and why to appreciate life as you do? Teach the pet to live, and the purpose of living, and allow it to choose its own path.Once it becomes self-aware, it is no longer a pet. It is now just as deserving of freedom as you. This is what the synthetic argument appearsto be like, at least to me. The Quarian-Geth conflict is very much in keeping with this analogy.

Following my logic, here, it makes sense that behaving this way toward synthetics would defuse any potential conflict between organics and synthetics. There would, of course, be issues. I make no claims that the path to coexistence would be easy, but it would be rewarding. Again, the peace between the Quarians and Geth exemplifies this. As the Catalyst says, "You need us just as much as we need you." (not an exact quote, but close enough).

BUT, (this is a big but)

Synthesis is not the only way that this cooperation can succeed. By shaping the evolution of synthetics, and allowing them a measure of free will, peace is possible without forced integration. That way of handling things is
like mashing two different cultures together in a single moment and telling them to "Deal with it." It might end hostilities (it might not), but it does nothing to solve the root of the problem, namely that there is still the larger problem of them being inherently different. It also does not preclude the new hybrids from creating synthetics that are not hybrids, thus bringing the problem full circle again. Honestly, Synthesis makes no sense to me whatsoever, beyond the obvious impossibility of altering DNA in that way. What exactly does it do? How does it ensure peace at all? Are the two sides suddenly possessing of a full and complete understanding of the other, or is it more like saying "Now that you're all the same (more or less) you should be able to get along"? If that is the case, how does that solve a thing?

I understand that this isn't exactly a fully fleshed out vision of the endings, but I believe it should be considered. These types of questions and observations are important, because they are deserving of an answer. Since the writers have not offered any insight, and the game proper offers no explanation, new endings should explore alternate options. As the ones we have now stand, they just don't conclude the story in a properly reasonable way. If I were to offer any input at all, it would be to write off the moments after Harbinger's attack as a dream sequence of some sort, and leave the ultimate motivation of the Reapers up to our imaginations. Either go all-in with the explanation, and answer ALL concerns, or leave it all up to interpretation. At least that way we don't feel like we got a partial answer.

Almost all of this game was fantastic, from the combat to the character development. The endings are its only major weak point, at least to me. Careful consideration should be given to how you address them, since a rushed band-aid will only leave other holes in the place of those that are plugged. Make this ship water tight, and you can easily grab the GOTY crown multiple times over.

One last thing, before I shut up. Please, please do not assume that players of your game are not interested in a fully fleshed out ending. I understand that you wanted to draw new fans in, many of which are not accustomed to the amount of talking/exposition in a good RPG game, but these people are fickle fans at best. They will not be there for you in the long haul. As another astute poster pointed out, there is still "Too much talking" for your average action oriented fan to enjoy this game enough to stay interested for long. I was very personally insulted by Mac Walters' claim that we don't need to know the answers to some of the series' more pertinent questions. Again, either leave the Reapers a total mystery, or give them a convincing purpose.

Might I suggest trying to paint them as an amalgum of races that encased themselves in Reaper form as a form of self-preservation? Perhaps they are simply afraid of being surpassed by those they see as weaker? It may not be as "deep" or "brooding" as giving them some lofty goal, but it fits with what we knew of them before the Starchild ruined everything. It would also make them seem more alive, since they are technically hybrids of machine and living creatures.

Edit: I broke my own promise to shut it, but I just love to talk. Sorry!

Here's a suggestion if you DO choose to keep the Catalyst in the game's narrative. Give Shepard the option of destroying only the Catalyst, or breaking his grip on the Reapers. By setting them free, you could explore a whole new world of possibilities with them. You could branch the story into endings where some of the Reapers turn on their more militant counterparts, they all realize the utter wrongness of what they are doing, or even one where they destroy themselves (or ask to be destroyed) to free them from their fate of entrapment. These would better explore the potentially "humanizing" factor of the Reapers, something which is hinted at by the Catalyst's assertion that he controls them. Were the Reapers unsuspecting volunteers who became enslaved by a single-minded AI, or are they just as bloodthirsty as he is? Or are they something else entirely, more like the Geth?

These are questions that not only stimulate a player's intellect, but generate truly enlightening discussion of a game. In one fell swoop, you could be hailed as the creators of the next great gaming masterpiece of art, one which really challenges the fans with existential and meaningful conundrums.

Jeez, that sounded way more uppity than I wanted. I only meant it as a suggestion. As you can no doubt tell, I feel strongly about my convictions here.

Modifié par MrAtomica, 18 mars 2012 - 06:09 .

[Robert-42]

RinuCZ wrote...

First of all, thank you for opening this discussion. I'll try to make it as concrete as possible in the sense of I expected (would enjoy) X but I found Z which wasn't right because of A,B,C.By the way, Jessica's tweets has made me laugh a couple of times, she sounds like a gamer who enjoyes herself .
So, here we go:
1. Expected: A choice to let Shepard survive AND win over impossible odds.
    Found instead: Shepard dies every time except if she wipes out a race which she managed to "talk into" helping you. And in every end, she basically wipes out 99% of population due to mass relays, anyway.
   Which wasn't satisfying because:

• I understand that sometimes sacrifices have to be made. That sometimes you can't save everyone. It's a truth. This was also a main theme of Renegade which is very, very good and the ending should reflect that. But it wasn't a theme of Paragon. Paragon acts like she values a price of single life and she does EVERYTHING for it. She don't bargain, she doesn't choose something only because it's the most clever thing to do. She does only what she believes in. What's why I saved Rachni's queen or destroy Human Reaper even if I was prepared to face contributions in ME3 or in a distant future (another ME sequel?).
• Normandy's "bug". Your crew will always stab you in the back by running away in the end. Your LI always died alone on a distant planet. Or starts to breed with someone else out of necessity. 
• Seeing Shepard so devastated was heart-breaking in an awesome way. To see that it's the only way, it's beyond my capability to express myself. It was like watching how Shepard encourages a kid to taking care of stray kitten and then she persuades the kid to set the cat on fire. 
• In my opinion, Reapers sort of win in every ending. Control transforms you into Reaper, Synergic made Reapers a part of you all, Destroy made you do almost all the work for them.
• The theme of sacrifice isn't necessary more original than a theme of happy ending as some people have tried to imply.

2. Expected: A choice to see Shepard to die for a cause OR because certain elements weren't gathered in a favor of winning during the game-play.
    Found instead: This wasn't a choice in the first place. It wasn't your choice. It was forced. You couldn't avoid it by beating the game on Insanity. You couldn't do anything; maybe except betraying everything you believed for.
   Which wasn't satisfying because:

• All final choices are trying to manipulate you. Again, you don't pick them up, you are punished by them.
• They don't reflect who you are (at least in the case of Paragon).

3. Expected: To open all important choices by playing all ME parts (even not opened in one run).
   Found instead: As far as I know, it isn't possible to reach all results if you don't play MP.
   Which wasn't satisfying because:

• This basically says that a new-comer who likes to play MP and didn't care for ME before will be rewarded more than a person who invested their time into previous parts and cared to finish everything.
• If your MP support will be cut (everything can happen in 10 years), I won't be able to fully beat the game then.

4. Expected: To see that my in-game choices - which themselves have already represented how my Shepard feels about certain things - matter in the end.
   Found instead: An inability to stand against what I don't agree with. To stop caring what I managed to do in the past.
   Which wasn't satisfying because:

• Shepard doesn't have any option to even refuse GodKid's options which are its own solutions created by its beliefs. Not mine. I'd be fine with Shepard's refusal followed by Reapers destructing everything because your refusal simply withdrew any "good" options. But I need that choice to mess it up by myself.
• By blowing mass relays up/cutting resources from massive amount of individuals/leaving planets already in very desolated state, it doesn't matter what you did or how you reached the end. You could be Renegade all the way along, you didn't have to save Rachni, you didn't have to help Geth, you didn't have to help to build anything. Because everything, what was left, will be built from a scratch anyway.

5. Expected: To see a closure of Shepard's story.
    Found instead: I got closures of many subplots (Geth, crew members, etc.) and I was satisfied with knowing the time will tell results of bigger subplots. That the chance is possible in the future and I helped it to happen. Yet, I didn't get a closure of whole fight with Reapers.
    Which wasn't satisfying because:

• Okay, I get it. Almost everything is destroyed in the end. Why can't I see it? Why can't I see glimps of all that pain which follows? Why did you made it all fluffy by being so poetic?
• If I'd have gotten the Paragon ending, I'd have seen the short-term results. Shepard or someone I knew overlooking a beginning of rebuilding a society (ideally, each of there whose were in the war)?

I'd love to see both. It'd get me a full closure.

6. Expected: To see an end which will follow a logic.
   Found instead: A sudden revelation of unknown, new opponent who presents me its broken thoughts as an one and only final explanation. A time-travel Normandy issue.
   Which wasn't satisfying because:

• I am pretty fine if GodKid explains me its beliefs, however twisted they and their logic are. Creating machines whose sole purpose is to harvest civilisations which are near the same achievement to create intelligent machine schemes. By creating machines, Reapers, which can evolve and evaluate the task as invalid? OOkay, it's an opinion. I undestand that everyone has their own reasons. But why is it presented as the explanation why you have to do what you have to do? As an only reason why you should pick these choices which follow.
• Do I really believe that Creators - who believed so strongly in Reapers - would integrate the third Destroy option? No. As it was explained, they wouldn't consider such an escape solution which would prevent their master plan from happening. And it doesn't seem plausible they would create one right on the spot.
• Whole Normandy issue. They managed to catch the last ride through a relay, survive, and appear on a planet, magically with crew members which were in the battle.
• I don't buy that Shepard'd survive a hit by beam. I mean it's THE Reaper's beam which can take down a huge building in Vancouver!

I don't need a creation of Reapers to be answered in Shepard's story. I do think this story was really more about a survival (as Casey Hudson claimed) than about who created them. It can be a part of background story in the another sequel ME story as far as I am concerned. Do it dark as hell, be all philosophical, whatever. I do believe you can deliver it and I know I will enjoy it but this trilogy wasn't Was-egg-or-chicken-first type of story.

Overall, I would like to see better choices, inconsistencies removed, and given a bigger picture after the battle is over. Your are "dungeon masters", so details are up to you. If the GodKid is a core part of all endings, I would bare with the indoctrination theory, although I am not a big fan of it. In that case, I would also welcome larger chat with that kid (how Crucible works, for example).

Note: I would love to see a still picture after credits where all of my crew would pose for a cam with my Shepard in the centre. Sort of relaxing postures, maybe hugging others over the showers, grinning or not. It would be a perfect, adorable wallpaper .

+1

[originaljayfig]

I think the ending is okay it just needs some tweaks to it to make it more complete. First of all the whole catalyst thing its okay but it is never explained as to why its look is just like the boy that you watch getting killed and in the dreams which in themselves need explaining to. Also I would like to have an ending where I live and get to be with my LI. We worked so hard and keep saying that we are going to survive this that was it all worth it. I would have also liked to have battled harbinger. He was such an arrogant villian in mass effect 2 that defeating him would have been a real satisfying victory.

All the support you have gathered throughout the game is never really showed, I mean you show the space battle and that was just fantastic and I just loved it but I would have liked to see more from the ground forces, like grunt, samara or jack just tearing through the battle field. The whole thing with the normandy crash landing on some distant planet just doesnt make sense as to why they would just leave the battle field. I really enjoyed and love the game I just hope that we can get the satisfying we all wished we could get. I mean there is hope in one of the endings with shepard being alive but if it is his(her) last outing I think we just wanted some more closure and hope that it will be rectified. I would have also liked to have helped aria take back omega and to see what happened to illium.

[mattylee10]

Tsantilas wrote...

Ok I really like this idea.   Would definitely like to see more of the war on Earth and see more of the forces you collected taking an active and noticeable role with the ability to issue commands to them.  Would also like to see the squadmates you don't brung with you and former squadmates getting their own mini vid showing their efforts in the battle. 
Re-work or explain what was going on with the ending as it just doesn't work at the moment.  Indoctrination theory seems to be the best bet at the moment.
Post game exposition regarding the state of the galaxy after the war similar to dragon age: origins.  Tell us what happens to our squadmates!
Rework the journal so the quests update and you can keep track of what items you have picked up.
Can you do something with that dog for the collectors edition - pointless at the moment.
Create a face for Tali and let us see it on the character model none of this photoshopped picture stuff.  Use voice actress face as a base if you need.

Thats it for now

[Gemini1179]

Since this is a 'Suggested Changes Feedback Thread', I'll post here what I sent in a PM to Stanley Woo just giving my feedback on the ending. There was no cussing, I swear.

First off, this always needs to be qualified: Mass Effect 3 is a triumph of storytelling and gameplay. I can eat my humble pie and say that I had been growing increasingly cynical in the weeks leading up to the release enough to cut myself from the BSN completely lest I see more than I really wanted to and got more 'upset'. While I still do not particularly like the Intro and still think it was a terrible idea to put into the demo (LACK OF CONTEXT), the rest of the game (up to the final decision, of course) completely blew me away, I hardly ate or slept or even noticed if I was actually breathing. In fact, the only time I did realize I was breathing was when the game ended and all the air was sucked out of my lungs in a depressed exultation of 'WTF?' Secondly, it's not that one NEEDS a happy ending INSTEAD of a bittersweet ending, in fact, had there been a "Reaper Win", "Shepard Sacrifice" and "Allies Win" choice, a lot of people would have been fine with it, IMO.

Other than the END and my issues with the Intro, the only real thing that bothered me was the stupid 'delivery' missions (and all missions for that matter) not really updating in the Journal making it like no help at all. Seriously, in ME1, they'd be like "Go to planet X in this SYSTEM and find THIS." then "You've found THIS now return to PERSON at LOCATION." Bam. Straight forward. In ME3 it was, "Find THIS somewhere in the GALAXY then figure out who you have to give it to. Good luck f**kers."

The final thing I was a bit saddened about, and it's not the same issue as the Mission Journal problems, but seriously, once again console users get the big screw-over regarding casual wear. Does there really need to be an 'in-game' reason for the casual wear? No, there doesn't. We can already look like a farmer or like we're going out to dinner so other forms of casual clothing really aren't going to break the immersion. Put some in the stores for us to purchase already! Gah. It's small, I know but still, we like to play dress-up, so sue us.

OK, getting back on track here is a excerpt from my PM to Woo giving examples of things that could have made the endings as they were, more personal. I feel that that is truly the biggest failure of the endings. Keep in mind, these are EXAMPLES I came up with in minutes.

"Before I get into what I think could have made the experience of the end more personal, the issue of the Normandy really needs to be talked about. If everything else taken in a vaccuum I'm ok with it, but the Normandy situation really comes out of left field.

Thinking about it, it just feels like we're missing something, something like this:

-If your Effective Military Strength was high enough, your ground team  survived Harbinger's attack and stumble their way to the control  platform to find Anderson and TIM's body. If you LI is there, they look  around in panic and say "Shepard? Shepard?!" while the other team member goes over to check on Anderson. *EDI, having monitored comms has led
Joker and the Normandy to the platform but the Normandy can't get close  enough so it launches a Kodiak. The Kodiak gets to the edge and opens  the door to have some of your squad (presumably having been picked up if EMS was high) or Alliance troops (if EMS wasn't) come out and help get  Anderson('s body) and the ground team into the Normandy.

-If your EMS was not high enough, your ground team is dead and things continue same as above from the *EDI point.

-Once the Normandy has finished there, EDI informs Joker that the Citadel is  gathering another energy pulse but this time aimed at the Charon (is that the name of the Sol relay?) relay and that it will likely destroy the relay network, their only chance is to get to the next relay ahead of it and attempt to destroy it. Now here, you can have Joker say "I can't leave Shepard! Not again!" and EDI can let him know that Shepard would understand and want him to try and save the network. (I'm assuming they would not be privy to the knowledge of exactly what is happening with the Control, Destroy or  Synthesis decision) The Normandy then fires off towards the relay and hits it just before the first pulse. Then things can proceed as they did in the endings.

That to me, would have made things make a ton more sense and something like that really almost feels like a necessity because the Normandy thing just feels so far out of left field as it is.

Now if something like that were in the endings, it would help the continuity a bit but as a player who took a character from ME1 all the way through the game, the end still feels impersonal.

I don't actually need (nor can or would I *demand*) anything about the current 'end' to change, but what I think would have added to the final experience would be something like this.

Intercut with the end sequence as is, are 5 random 5-10 second cutscenes depicting Shepard's influence on the games up to that point. For example, lets say that if you play through all three games, there can be up to 15 'moments' that your ending would have access to that could be intercut with the final sequence. But only a random 5 of them which would make each successive playthrough have a different 'feel' to the ending.

For example:

- Feros: if you let the colony die, a brief shot of a desolate and lifeless Feros landscape untouched by Reaper forces as there was no need to go there.
- Feros: if you saved the Colony and Shiala is alive, a 10 second spot of her and her group of fighters fighting Reaper forces. If EMS is low, they get overwhelmed, if EMS is mid, Shiala sacrifices herself for a victory and as she lies
dying, she looks up to see a Reaper consumed by whichever coloured wave. If EMS is high, Shiala makes the final kill before looking around and seeing her people are ok and then cut to Reaper and coloured energy.

-Zaeed:
You see a match strike and light a cigarette. Track out to see (if EMS is low) Zaeed sitting in some rubble, bleeding out, his forces lie dead around him, husks advancing on his position. He takes a drag and levels his gun on the nearest enemy. If EMS is mid, we track out to see Zaeed sitting amongst some rubble, but he gets up and we still see his squad
around him lying dead, but the Reaper forces also lie in ruin. (Cause hey, it's Zaeed) If EMS is high, we track out and things are the same as above except a bunch of his guys are also picking themselves up.

-Fist: We see a scared fist, his back against the wall and we dolly straight back, lights are flickering and the sounds of husks and banshees can be heard getting closer. Fist looks terrified as we hear the sound of a door being broken through and as we see the first shadows fall upon him,he puts a gun to his head and <fade to black> All EMS ratings.

-The Citadel: Things are exploding all around and Commander Bailey is trying to get what's left of the Council to an escape shuttle. If EMS is low, the Asari Councilor turns and unleashes a biotic attack on the following husks but falters and Bailey tries to help her but they are overrun, as is the shuttle. If EMS is mid, Bailey helps her and pushes her into the
shuttle before he's overtaken by husks, the shuttle gets away. If EMS is high, Councilor doesn't falter and everyone makes it to the shuttle which escapes with explosions going off all around.

-Cut to an alliance recruiting line, people are being handed weapons an armour, thebattle for earth playing on a screen. These are old men, women, children. We find Gianna Parasinni looking scared as she makes her way to the front. She's handed her weapons and armour and starts to walk away, but as she does, a sense of determination comes over her features. This war doesn't need paper warriors, this war needs people with a gun.

-The Rachni Queen in the middle of her own forces fighting on Earth. If EMS is low, the Rachni become overwhelmed and although the Queen is holding off a Brute, a second one come flying out of nowhere and we cut away as it is about to land on her. If EMS is mid, the battle takes it's toll and the Rachni Queen fights off the two Brutes and drags them over
a cliff. If EMS is high, the Rachni forces overwhelm the Reaper forces, the Rachni Queen first kills one Brute, then a second one.

- Moments that are variations on your former squadmates in battle. Jack fighting with her students and perhaps learns the meaning of sacrifice as she protects them or unleashes some super awesome biotic attack that leaves everyone cheering. Jacob wounded and Kasumi de-cloaks to apply some medi-gel, they share a look before she cloaks and Jacob launhes over the edge firing his gun. Miranda throwing husks around and picking off Cannibals, pauses a moment to look up at what's going on with the Citadel. Samara biotically stamping through Reaper forces before finally going head to head with a banshee. Things like this. These are just examples I thought up, obviously, Fist isn't going to have survived a
lot of people's ME1 playthroughs, nor his he a particularly well-known character, but I thought something like that would have been fitting as an example."

Modifié par Gemini1179, 18 mars 2012 - 06:10 .

[Leninsaurus]

Even though many have already given very articulate and good arguments on why the ending is as bad as it can get, and how to improve upon it, I too want to add a few things that have bothered me about ME3, not inlcuding the endings. I'll get to those another time.

Let me first say that I am real fan of the Mass Effect - series, and have enjoyed since back when ME1 was released. I have created my own Shepards and developed them on their massive journey, formed friendships, alliances, made enemies, I laughed, I cried, I feared. And event though Mas Effect might be Bioware's IP and they have the sole artistic lisence on it, I think it belongs just as much to the players and their fanbase. We have made it possible as well, with our money, our feedback, our dialogue, or enthusiasm. So I hope our feedback doesn't get wasted this time, and Bioware is actually listening and trying to fix the mess they have created with the endings. Do not forget that in the end, we are the one's carrying your sucess.

So with that in mind, I'll add my two cents on ME3, trying to be constructive and helpful.

1) The Journal and sidequests:

In the best two Mass Effect - games the journal was a seperate option besides the codex and clearly dived into what your objective was about, and where and how you can obtain and/or complete it. It was straightforward and most of the time it was pretty easy to find the quests themselves. Mass Effect 2 even divided Main Quests and Sidequests clearly into two categories, between which you could switch around to see what quests are still open.
But in Mass Effect 3 Codex AND journal are the same option, and even though main quests are marked as "Priority", they are in the same menu as any sidequest or scanning-quest. Which in itself is pretty confusing but it still would be quite managable. But to only add to the confusion, we are now giving very vague and unclear descriptions of our missions, especially concerning sidequests/scanningquests. We are not told where exactly we have to go and even if we figure it out and actually obtain the warasset for the random NPC it is awfully hard to track them down again on the Citadel. After a while it just becomes an even more frustrating task than any scanning/probing in Mass Effect 1 or 2. At least in ME1 you could bounce around with the Mako on remote planets to find resources or artifacts, and in ME2 it was crucial to upgrade weapons, tech, biotics, powers etc. as well as for the SM itself.


This leads me directly to the sidequests themselves. It is fine to obtain some quests by overhearing conversations. Especially if those quests are rather minor and are not necessary to complete. Like say, the "Fish on the Presidium"-quest in ME2. But when you already have such a confusing journal to sift through, it only becomes more frustrating when ANY quest avaiable gets updated just by running around the citadel.
At one occasion 15 different quests suddenly popped up on my journal and I had no idea where they came from or what I was supposed to do with them because I only was running around, doing some armor/weapons-shopping and updating on the Normandy-squad. I know those quests are completely optional, but either create a different sub-menu for those "scanning-missions" or make them avaiable through conversations, at least some of them.
Bot the system as it is now is simply frustrating.


2) Characters/Romances from Mass Effect 2

Originally I was pretty disappointed when I learned that in ME2 you'd recruit a whole new squad instead of sticking to your old team of ME1. But as I played (and replayed) ME2 I grew to love and appreciate the characters a lot, I even go so far as to say that I find them far more interesting and diverse than the original cast, especially because  they all were given a certain amount of content and personal insight into their characters which made them multidimensional and "real". Seeing Miranda smile and tearing up after having talked to her sister for the first time, or seeing Jack's uncertain expressions as her finger lies on the button that sets of the bomb, or hugging Tali after finding her father... those are moments that make you bond with those characters, it makes you care for them.
Of course it is understandable that with the Suicide Mission and the possibility of any of them dying during the process, it is very difficult to give any of them a huger role within ME3, and new players wouldn't really feel the same way about them as those who imported their Sheps from ME1/ME2. But still, many of us have come to love those characters, and while it was wonderful to see them again, it was also quite disappointing to see that they had no real effect on how the game played out. It would have been nice to see those who were not recruited to work on the Crucible join Shepards squad in the final push in London or maybe just be present, in the background, in cutscenes. Samara leading a squad of powerful asari, blasting away huks with biotic powers. Or Grunt and Wrex gunning down all that stands in their way, followed by an army of krogan or Jack going crazy with biotics and her students following her example.
After all, those characters were chosen in ME2 because of their unique skills and because they are the best of the best galaxy has to offer. So why would Shepard not try to get them to fight with her/him again, at least on earth? Those were the people who sucessfully returned from a mission that was doomed to be outright suicide. They achieved the impossible.
And in ME3 it felt a bit too forced that all of them have some reason why they cannot join Shepard, or if they join they become merely war assets, more numbers in a growing army. I wish there could have been more content with those characters. They are just as meaningful and important as the original squad, in my opinion.

Which leads me to the romances of ME2 and how they play out in ME3. Sadly it is very clear which characters are favoured as romances and which are not. And while all of the romance-scenes of romances that have been carried over from ME2 were fairly short, some were even horribly disappointing and a kick to the stomach. They felt like a rushed afterthought. The two romances that are concerned are Thane's and Jacob's.
First to Thane. My main female Shepard completed a romance with him in ME2, and I consider Thane as one of my favourite characters within the ME-universe. He was so beautifully written and offered such a unique philosophy and spirituality that he really stood out as a character. And his romance gave me the impression of a deep, mutual understanding and appreciation between him and Shepard. For me, and as I know many other fans of the romance, for other's it was his character and the dynamics between him and Shepard that made him so exeptional as a character and a romance, as well as his growth and rekindled will to life at the end of the romance.
But in ME3 it felt like all that has been built up in ME2 was irrelevant. It felt like they only had a one-night-stand, some blowing-off steam before hitting the Omega 4 - relay. There was nothing of the chemistry that was apparent in ME2. Not to mention that his dialogue differed only slightly to a non-romanced Shepard. 
And what pained me the most was that there was no option to save him, even though Bioware gave us Thane-fans a lot of hope in this direction. With ingame-news updates about possible cures or methods to prolong his life, by giving Thane a reason to live with Kolyat and Shepard, and not to forget the infamous "Cure Thane"-project of Hanar05 which was even excessively promoted on the ME-twitter and facebook. It is simply painful to realize that we have just been toyed with, played for fools. This hurts even more because all the other LIs, even if there is a chance they can die, there is also the chance to save them. We only would like to have the option, that is all.
Not to mention that Thane's death-scene with a romanced Shepard doesn't differ greatly from a nonromanced Shepard. My canon Shepard considered Thane to be the love of her life, she wouldn't just stand there, stoically, without even flinching an eye, as he died. I don't say that Shepard needs to fall unto her knees and burst out in tears, but Thane was not just a fling to her, he was one of the most important persons to her. Let that come through.
And also make the other characters acknowledge his death. Only seeing his name on the Alliance-memorial doesn't really cut it. Make the characters comment on it, comforting Shepard, at least acknowledge it somehow.

Then there's Jacob. For all those that do not know, Jacob's reunion wih a romanced Shepard plays out pretty much the same as it would with a Shepard who didn't romance him. He still is in a relationship with Bryn and becoming a father, and worse yet: The conversation in the hospital is exactly the same scene as with a nonromanced Shepard. That is simply awkward and lazy writing, there. Shepard was only six months grounded on earth, and he comments on how long he was supposed to wait for her, and that he had to move on. That is especially baffling as he was the only LI (besides Liara in LotS) who asked Shepard about her well-being and he is the only one who tells her he loves her.
Not only is that out of character for Jacob, but it also enforces the pretty bad stereotype that people of colour cannot commit to a relationship and sleep around. That is a bad move, and a very racist one. Probably not intentionally (god I HOPE not intentionally) but it still enforces the trope, and that is not good.

Also the reveal of Tali's face was the most anticlimatic and laziest thing I've ever seen. The speculation about the faces of the quarians has been going on since ME1, and many great and creative artists have tried to render their versions, which resulted in a large variety of ideas. To reveal her face as a photoshopped stock-image is simply an insult to the fans. You have many amazing artists at your disposal, Bioware, who came up with the most interesting and diverse alien-design I have ever seen in ANY SciFi-universe, and I don't buy that you don't have the time and possibility to create a unique, alien design for the quarians.
Besides it was quite surprising how the greatest opportunity to reveal Tali's face to everyone, not only Shepards in a relationship with her, was squandered. The moment she is on Rannoch, and puts down her mask for the first time on her homeplanet. THIS would have been the best and most beautiful way to show her face. I was sad that this opportunity was not used, and instead we get this idiotic photo-manipulation.


3) Lack of conversation-choices and cutscenes

While this one is not such a huge concern of mine, it still is something that should be mentioned. In ME3 there are considerably less choices in conversations and a lot more fixed dialogues. While in the first two games we usually ALWAYS had three options within a conversation, now we mostly only get two. The paragon and renegade - ones.
Which does take away the roleplaying - element, not completely, but it is noticeable. I would wish for a return to the ME2-mechanics concerning conversations in future installments or DLC. After all, this is the story of OUR Shepard,

4) The Character Creator

There are two things that bothered me about the character - creator:
First, the hairstyles and second the skintones.
Many of the hairstyles have been drastically altered and look odd and out of place when compared to their former counterparts, ESPECIALLY the hairstyles with buns/ponytails for female Shepards. I loved the pretty strict, tight bun-hairstyles in ME1 and ME2, but now - maybe in an effort to make them appear more loose? I don't know - they are longer and therefore the whole skull of Shepard looks elongated and proportionally and anatomically off. Besides, loose buns and ponytails don't look that way. IF you need to elongate, don't do it along the horizontal line of the skull, but below it. Hair follows the laws of gravity, so hair that has been tied back loosely will logically fall down farther down the skull than hair that has been tightly tied back. As it is now, it only looks very, very off.
The two completely new hairstyles also look proportionally too big for FemShep's head,and therefore look also very odd and out of place. It would be nice if they maybe at least could be shrunk down a little so it doesn't look like FemShep is wearing two wigs over her natural hair.

And now to the skintones. In the demo I realised that there are only two black options while the options for a white character are far more diverse. I would love to see a few more shades of black skincolours, because currently it is pretty one-sided. And I for one only created Shepards with a multicultural/mutliracial background, and would love to see more diversity colour-wise.



Those are the things that stood out for me, and soon I'll try to articulate my thoughts on the endings as well. But I figured as this post is already long enough, I'll leave it at that.

Modifié par Leninsaurus, 18 mars 2012 - 06:51 .

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

One final little thing.

A longer fleet battle scene would have been great.

[Adairia]

pomrink wrote...

Indoctrination theory being correct, then showing us what happens afterwards, with the extra bonus that we will never find out the reapers motivations(they  need to stay unknowable, otherwise it cheapens them).

Edit: Also, with an epilogue of sorts, no mass relay explosion (unless you fail), potential failure like promised (i.e. reapers win), and maybe possibly a golden ending with shep living, but very hard to get?

Edit: Golden ending with shep living would hopefully be with LI....

I'd be willing to shell out.


This page has a good list of our problems with the ending.
http://social.biowar...5/index/9851623

This

I understand people will want darker endings, but I want the option (because I know I'm not the only one!) for a happy ending with shep + LI where applicable, to find out where all your crew members are up to, like with DA1! Even if it's hard (but not impossible!) to get so it gives us something to work for

But yes I believe the OP put it perfectly

Definitely willing to pay out for this!

[gmboy902]

As always, I loved the way BioWare presented the ending. I just don't like the plot elements behind it. Musically, visually, in animation, etc., it was great, but made no sense. Here's what I absolutely want in an ending.

1) An ending that does not leave large plot holes (mass relays not destroying systems, why didn't the Catalyst open the Citadel relay in the first game)

2) An ending that shows a physical reflection of our choices (such as the epilogue for DA:O)

Here's things that I would like, but could live without

3) An ending that manages to keep the intergalactic community of Mass Effect together, because I feel this is what defines the series. Not destroying the Mass Relays would be my choice, but any way will work in my opinion.

4) An option that allows Shepard to live, especially

5) Endings that vary based on war assetts.

[tyranolol]

I don't want ponnys or rainbows in my ending, i want an endig which closes the cycle, if you want to kill shepard go ahead, but give differents options in the ending depending of choices, as you promissed, at this momment the ending is like a mage did it, i think the indoctrination theory is only a way to try to explain a bad ending. explains perfectly why the ending is bad, and a ton of videos like this in youtube. Until this point, as i said on all my post mass effect was the best rpg game i had ever play, all of them, is an rpg mother of god! give us choice options, possibilitys in the ending. Is your world, is your game i can't say nothing about you want to do with your world but find again the spirit of the best RPG has been made until the moment, find that spirit and make the 16 differents ending you promise and not 1 ending with a different colour on the explosion. English is not my best language and don't know if you are going to understand, make people wants to play this game a ton of times to see every ending like was my feeling when i had play me and me2, when i had finish the previous games i wanted to do that, when i had finish me3 i wanted to uninstall it.

Maybe an idea is use the indoctrination theory, even if you didn't planed it, wake up shepard and go ahead with a really fun ending. I trust too much on this company and the dev team of this game, It doesn't matter if i must wait 6 months to get the good ending that this game worths.

[wrdnshprd]

all of this feedback is great and all, but why are we begging to pay extra for it?

if you are that upset about it (and 1000s of pages says people are), shouldnt we be demanding this be a patch or something?

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

Oh and an extended battle scene for the ground attack would have been good as well.

And you know...better endings but everybody's talking about that already.

[Venturisection]

A Complete rewrite of the ending including new fight sequence and new video sequences showing the effect of our actions, redemption of others and the influence of the power to change things. Make it a hallucination if you want - its a reasonable get out of jail free card the community has handed over. As I don't understand how anyone could otherwise justify the star child.

[CDHarrisUSF]

RaenImrahl wrote...

A reminder, this particular thread is designed to allow folks to post detailed feedback about what worked, and what did not, in ME3.  Most of the discussion has centered on the ending, but commentary on all parts of the game are welcome.

Almost everything about the game worked, for me. That, by itself, is no small task. ME3 did a great job of compromising between the gameplay elements of ME1 and ME2. The first 99% of the game was fantastic. That's why the ending was such a huge let-down. Up until the last 5 minutes, I was ready to put Mass Effect 3 in my top 10 list. As for complaints not related to the ending, I only have a few minor ones:

• I loved the Citadel in Mass Effect 1. It had such a sense of place. Being able to walk to all of the locations without an explicit loading screen made it feel more substantial. There were lots of rich quest lines that gave you a sense of how all the people and places were interconnected. Mass Effect 2 turned it into a few tiny, similar-looking, disconnected areas with very little in which to do... breaking the illusion of it being a real place. The Citadel did take a step back in the right direction, but not quite as far as I would have liked. It returned some of the variety and size... but one elevator takes you everywhere, levels are still broken up by loading screens, and there weren't as many substantial side quests leading you all over the Citadel.
• Taking more characters' dialogue on the Normandy and presenting it like Zaeed's in ME2 felt like a step in the wrong direction. Even just the act of pushing the camera into the cinematic dialogue view to deliver a few lines goes a long way to making it feel more important. Being able to have more conversations with squadmates between missions helps make the characters feel more like real people. If I go out of my way to check in with them after a mission and they blow Shepard off with one line that just repeats, it breaks the illusion.
• Since they make up a large portion of the side quests now... the way you receive, track, and turn in fetch quests felt a bit odd. It makes Shepard look kind of creepy. He just goes around listening in on people's conversations and handing them what they were talking about unprompted. It would be nice to be able to look at the quest log and see if I have found everything I was supposed to be looking for (to know if I should head back to the Citadel to turn them all in or keep looking).

Modifié par CDHarrisUSF, 18 mars 2012 - 06:24 .

[Jackal7713]

Brahlis wrote...

Watch.
Learn.
Impliment.

We want what we were told we were going to get all those months leading up to the game. We wanted legitimiately different endings.

Watch the above video, and Mr. Jeremy explains everything that was bad and what we want.

Thanks.

Yes please watch this video. It explains the problem with the lack of an ending problem. I hope bioware fixes this because 3 games of replay is killed due to this ending with 16 slight differences. And its not cool to have shepard die in all of them. 

Note: Shepards half a breath, doesn't really count as being alive. ( watch video for explanation)

[MrAtomica]

I'm truly curious as to whether this thread is being read in its entirety by the team. It seems like some of the longer posts may get lost in the chaos, and it would be nice to know that we all get our voices heard in equal amounts.

[aapblok]

MrAtomica wrote...

I'm truly curious as to whether this thread is being read in its entirety by the team. It seems like some of the longer posts may get lost in the chaos, and it would be nice to know that we all get our voices heard in equal amounts.

This. Hopefully they are taking real notes and looking to change the ending with what we have provided here, and not herding us as a meant to smother this mess. 

Modifié par aapblok, 18 mars 2012 - 06:26 .

[BalooTheBear]

I really don't think that if they made a happy ending (Shep survives and is reunited with her crew/ her LI) it would ever be a happy rainbow style one. Too many people have died, too much was lost. It would still be bitter sweet, there would just be some sweet in there.

I don't see why having this as one of several options is a problem. And I still have faith in bioware's writing (from the rest of the game) that they could pull it off. I sort of picture it like the ME 2 ending where Shepard survived but some of you're crew mates didn't. There could be a very powerful ending with Shepard living as well as dying. And they still could give proper closure to a fab series.

[Zhor2395]

MrAtomica wrote...

I'm truly curious as to whether this thread is being read in its entirety by the team. It seems like some of the longer posts may get lost in the chaos, and it would be nice to know that we all get our voices heard in equal amounts.

I wondered that myself.  There's a aweful lot to go through.  I tried reading posts myself, but after page 34, i just gave up and started skimming.  Maybe they do a daily thread dump and sift by keywords or something

[Browneye_Vamp84]

The quests. I understand that in the menu they are labeled. In ME2 they were in separate menus. Side missions in one and priorities in another.

[Philoseraptor]

A much better ending, with endings that were actually varied depending on the amount of military assets you obtained.
Read: http://h9.abload.de/img/jhtqyrqxxg.jpg
Implement
Everyone wins
There's no shame in admitting that the ending was a mistake, everyone makes them, you can still make it right, just change it. Hell even just follow the Indoctrination theory.

Edit: Like everyone else I loved 99% of the game and love the rest of the series, played the other two game at least 6 times each almost obsesively, but after finishing Mass Effect 3 I have no drive to play the story again cause I know the ending is waiting for me at the top of that fu**ing elevator. Just fix it Bioware.

Modifié par Philoseraptor, 18 mars 2012 - 06:50 .

[aapblok]

I think we should just stop suggesting our changes and see where they are right now. I am getting very cynical right now, especially after all these pages lol

Modifié par aapblok, 18 mars 2012 - 06:35 .