7052 réponses à ce sujet

[nicksmi56]

Please use this video to see why most people are upset

[oneyedjohn]

Meruvian wrote...

NovaM4 wrote...

Lambchopz wrote...

No idea if it's been posted yet, but here's an image of a fan made diagram imagining how choices in ME3 could have mattered in the ending. Posting because somebody asked me to.

You need to zoom in to get a better idea of it.

i.imgur.com/JhtqY.jpg

Bioware should really take a look at this!
and i think the fans are liking this too!

I love this idea! Maybe they could even make certain parts playable similar to the 'make Joker limp to EDI' part in ME2. So you can play as Jack and experience these events unfolding. 

The fact that this idea shows the player what happens is a great improvement on what we have now, and it leaves out the god-child, which is a plot that is added too late and frankly doesn't work at all.

I understand that this idea would take a lot more development time than a simple DLC, and is perhaps more along the scope of a more traditional expansion pack. (ME3, the ACTUAL battle for earth)
Which to us fans would mean it would be a longer wait, and potentially more costly, but personally I think that would be worth it.


Whoever originally made this schematic, thank you!

And I would like to add that this whole affair is made more sour because Bioware has made some of my most beloved games ever, and I really WANT to keep loving the company and it's products. So it saddens me that I cannot say to my friends when they ask about ME3 that I loved it.

But I remain hopeful that by making an excellent idea like this one come true they will restore my faith.

Edit: Here's a look at what was wrong with the endings. Although I'm aware this might not be the most constructive criticism. I do hope that it helps people at the dev/writing team understand why certain elements may look great as isolated ideas on paper, but didn't work for this franchise in practice:
(I know some of these have already been mentioned probably, but didn't feel like backtracking this entire thread)

http://angryjoeshow....fect-3s-ending/ 
http://calitreview.com/24673 
http://www.gamefront...fans-are-right/ 
http://www.forbes.co...ffect-3-ending/ 

I like the chart too.

[AgenTBC]

tl;dr - Bioware, please make sure any reaction to this issue is of the quality of the rest of the game. Don't do something just to get people to calm down without making sure it preserves the themes of self-sacrifice and the cost of victory.

[Ilzairspar]

Swisspease wrote...

I suggest watching this top 10 video by Angry Joe so you have an idea of why we're upset and the things we'd (or at lest I) like to see fixed.
www.youtube.com/watch

I can't see a single thing that Angry Joe mentioned that I didn't agree with 100%.

[Cooptimo]

I think the Angry Joe review of the ending and the googledoc that's floating around sum up the problems well. Thank you for giving us this forum to provide feedback, I've loved the ME series since I discovered it two years ago and I know the folks at Bioware work hard to make the best experience possible.

[LucidStrike]

oneyedjohn wrote...

Meruvian wrote...

NovaM4 wrote...

Lambchopz wrote...

No idea if it's been posted yet, but here's an image of a fan made diagram imagining how choices in ME3 could have mattered in the ending. Posting because somebody asked me to.

You need to zoom in to get a better idea of it.

i.imgur.com/JhtqY.jpg

Bioware should really take a look at this!
and i think the fans are liking this too!

I love this idea! Maybe they could even make certain parts playable similar to the 'make Joker limp to EDI' part in ME2. So you can play as Jack and experience these events unfolding. 

The fact that this idea shows the player what happens is a great improvement on what we have now, and it leaves out the god-child, which is a plot that is added too late and frankly doesn't work at all.

I understand that this idea would take a lot more development time than a simple DLC, and is perhaps more along the scope of a more traditional expansion pack. (ME3, the ACTUAL battle for earth)
Which to us fans would mean it would be a longer wait, and potentially more costly, but personally I think that would be worth it.


Whoever originally made this schematic, thank you!

I like the chart too.

Honestly, this entirely thread might as well be reposts of that chart. It's pretty much perfect, especially the way it gets rid of the "pick your poison" ending and just lets effects from causes.

[Khayness]

I don't need questions answered, nothing can legitimize the Godchild nonsense and the whole Mass Relay Network (the soul of the series) destruction.

The ending needs to be revisited to fit the spirituality of the Mass Effect series and to grant closure with a sense of accomplishment (I can be vague too ). GameFront's The 5 Reasons The Fans Are Right and Angry Joe's 10 Reasons got it all right.

P.s.: Marauder Shields is a cool guy, but he can't be the bossfight of ME3.

[Stoko981]

balance5050 wrote...

"The indoctrination theory shouldn't be implemented. Whatever "evidence" people have come up with was obviously not intended by BioWare, you shouldn't pick it up and run with it and make out like it was."

Sorry but you are wrong, this was what the leaked script was going for and now BIOWARE HAS TO OWN UP TO INDOCTRINATION THEORY BECAUSE IT"S BRILLIANT!

Hmm, I never saw the leaks. Indoctrination was the original end? Any chance you (or any other helpful person) can PM me a link to the leaked stuff? Since I've now finished the game, I'd be really interested to see what "might've been". Although, I do seem to recall people hating on the end from the leak, too.

[LucidStrike]

AgenTBC wrote...

...Don't do something just to get people to calm down without making sure it preserves the themes of self-sacrifice and the cost of victory.

Don't forget that 'hope against all odds' has been the theme of the whole series. Remember that EVERYONE could survive the SUICIDE mission of ME2. That's very important. Mass Effect was more than grimdark, up until that crappy ending where they decided to "up da br00tz".

[Dubbelfris]

Meruvian wrote...

NovaM4 wrote...

Lambchopz wrote...

No idea if it's been posted yet, but here's an image of a fan made diagram imagining how choices in ME3 could have mattered in the ending. Posting because somebody asked me to.

You need to zoom in to get a better idea of it.

i.imgur.com/JhtqY.jpg

Bioware should really take a look at this!
and i think the fans are liking this too!

I love this idea! Maybe they could even make certain parts playable similar to the 'make Joker limp to EDI' part in ME2. So you can play as Jack and experience these events unfolding. 

The fact that this idea shows the player what happens is a great improvement on what we have now, and it leaves out the god-child, which is a plot that is added too late and frankly doesn't work at all.

I understand that this idea would take a lot more development time than a simple DLC, and is perhaps more along the scope of a more traditional expansion pack. (ME3, the ACTUAL battle for earth)
Which to us fans would mean it would be a longer wait, and potentially more costly, but personally I think that would be worth it.


Whoever originally made this schematic, thank you!

And I would like to add that this whole affair is made more sour because Bioware has made some of my most beloved games ever, and I really WANT to keep loving the company and it's products. So it saddens me that I cannot say to my friends when they ask about ME3 that I loved it.

But I remain hopeful that by making an excellent idea like this one come true they will restore my faith.

Edit: Here's a look at what was wrong with the endings. Although I'm aware this might not be the most constructive criticism. I do hope that it helps people at the dev/writing team understand why certain elements may look great as isolated ideas on paper, but didn't work for this franchise in practice:
(I know some of these have already been mentioned probably, but didn't feel like backtracking this entire thread)

http://angryjoeshow....fect-3s-ending/ 
http://calitreview.com/24673 
http://www.gamefront...fans-are-right/ 
http://www.forbes.co...ffect-3-ending/ 

[AgenTBC]

Sure, ME has always been hopeful but that doesn't mean it hasn't shown the costs of victory.  I'm very worried that Bioware is going to throw up their hands and be like "if this is what they want, lets give it to them" and come out with a Penny Arcade-like flying ice cream cone ending.

[EaterOfPenguins]

 Though I'm sure a concise feedback is desired, the current ending has too many issues to only briefly explain why it not only isn't satisfying, but actively creates plot holes and contradicts facts established throughout the series (and in some cases even in-game codex entries). My issues are flawlessly represented by this document:

https://docs.google....oTUs/edit?pli=1 

Although some of the sections titles may seem a bit comical, I assure you that every point is well-evidenced and could not better describe my feelings, and that it warrants every bit of your attention if there is any intent to undo the damage the ME3 ending has done to the series as a whole. Although the document mentions the "indoctrination theory" often, it only does so because it's the only way to reconcile the sheer number of blatant oversights, contradictions, and inconsistencies present in the current ending. The game, along with the series, was almost unbelievably wonderful save for the abysmal, broken ending sequence.

[LucidStrike]

AgenTBC wrote...

Sure, ME has always been hopeful but that doesn't mean it hasn't shown the costs of victory.  I'm very worried that Bioware is going to throw up their hands and be like "if this is what they want, lets give it to them" and come out with a Penny Arcade-like flying ice cream cone ending.

I never said it was all rainbows and dairy-free ice cream. It's just that, ever since this debacle started, lots of folks have been pretty much saying that the ending HAS to be girmdark br00talz for da drahmahz. Everyone, including Shepard, could die completing ME2's suicide mission. Everyone could also survive. That's all I'm saying.

Really, after playing the role of Shepard since 2007, you can imagine I'm not all that interested in abject failure.

"I'm Commander Shepard, and...and I wanna live...just like you..."

Modifié par LucidStrike, 18 mars 2012 - 10:09 .

[RaenImrahl]

Everyone,

Thank you once again to all who have contributed their ideas, big or small, ending-related or not, to this discussion. I am impressed by the civility most have shown in this particular thread.  Thank you!

A few notes going forward:

The developers are looking for what *you* think.  Emphasis on *you*.  If you see a piece of video, a pie chart, or a flow chart online that helps articulate your point, then by all means reference it.  But the best way to make your argument is not with a link... it's with a statement.  Explain *why* you think that video/text/chart/poll has validity.  Use it as supporting evidence, sure, but *you* should make *your* case.

Let me put it another way... this isn't about showing the developers that there is a multiplicity of dissatisfied voices... it's about coming up with the widest and deepest swath of ideas. 

Also, if you want to quote a passage from someone's post, it would be helpful if you only quote the section needed to support your case.  As I've said before, this thread is naturally going to include some walls of text... but there's no need to replicate entire walls of text to make your point, necessarily.

Another option is to use the "link" function on a post you like to refer back to it.

Thanks again,

RI

[Fulgrim88]

Also see this post for fundamental flaws in the endings logical coherence.

This isn't just geeky nitpicking at very minor things.

It's showcasing the HUGE inconsistencies and plotholes of the ending, that are simply insulting towards the spirit of the series, the work of all the Developers to this point, the dedication of their fans, and everyones intelligence.

Just throwing this in, I've already made a longer statement about my personal gripes with the ending - and also my overall love for the series and this game up to the last few minutes.

Modifié par Fulgrim88, 18 mars 2012 - 10:14 .

[crimzontearz]

If I wanted to be given what I "need" I would ****ing go to a phylosophy class orwatch the news Agent....got it?

how about we give OPTIONS so everyone is happy? or are you in possess of objective and superior ****ing truth?

[JGGiant915]

http://angryjoeshow....fect-3s-ending/

I don't know if anyone has posted this yet, but this right here is my view on the ending and what's wrong with it. It's a bit long, but he lists 10 good reasons (4 of which are plot-holes) that the ending was disappointing.

Also, I've decided to stop using the plural "endings". There's only one.

[Zezzler]

So I just finished Mass Effect
3 Yesterday evening and enjoyed it, although not as much as ME2. Not saying
that ME3 is a bad game at all, I’m just saying that I had a number of issues
with it personally. I have not played through the entire Mass Effect 1 because I
do not own it, although I have played roughly 5 hours of it, I’ve also played
roughly 70-80 hours of ME2 and about 25 hours of ME3. The following is a small
list of my issues with the ME3:


Storytelling:
In Mass Effect 2, there was a huge emphasis on the story being told nearly
entirely through dialogue options, varying from the smallest things to
even entire cutscenes and even just plain random character interaction. Constantly
through my playthrough of Mass Effect 3 I kept saying to myself "I
could have made a dialogue choice here" or "I wish I could
'investigate' here". Another example of this comes from the
characters on the Normandy. I really miss the 'continuity editing' style
of cinematography and dialogue choices while just simply speaking to
characters on the Normandy (like from ME2). The way in which characters
talk to you on the Normandy really kept me in-interested (similar to
Kasumi or Zaeed in ME2). I really like dialogue choices, or investigating
in every dialogue opportunity possible. This partially ties into my second
point.
Character Development:
With my playthrough of Mass Effect 3 I noticed a drastic change in terms
of squad interaction and squad story telling. In Mass Effect 2 there was a
HUGE emphasis on the side-stories and fleshing out characters throughout
the entire game. Many could argue that there was too much and not a big
enough focus on story, which I agree with to a point, but there was still
something to be said about the quality of character interaction and
storytelling through those characters. While I was glad to see that
BioWare listened to the criticism of there not being a large enough focus
on the main story, I think they took it a tad bit too far. While ME2 was
the extreme of character development, ME3 was the extreme of story focus.
I think there needs to be much more of a medium ground where we get a huge
interesting campaign with a good focus on side-stories and characters. The
loyalty system was something HUGELY missed by me as well. 
Space Exploration:
This was something that really just disappointed. In ME1 there was Mako
and planet exploration, and in ME2 there was planet scanning and anomalies
to be found. In ME3, I felt as if there was no real reason to have many of
the solar systems to go to, and it just was lacking the feeling of massive
galactic exploration that was so interesting from the first two games.
While the way that the first two games handled exploration was not in any
way perfect, it disappointed me to see that BioWare didn't use ME3 to try
and experiment another way of making planet exploration more interesting
and engaging. This also ties in with my next point.
Side-Missions/Quests:
I feel as if there aren't as many side missions as there could be in Mass
Effect 3. Space exploration could have been a great way to integrate more
side missions (similar to ME2's anomalies, accept more of them on more
planets). As I am not a game designer, it's difficult for me to think of
great ways to incorporate lots of meaningful side missions, although,
having loot, weapons or items as an incentive to do
side-missions/exploration would be a great.
RPG Elements:
Speaking of loot, another criticism that I have is the lack of RPG
elements. Now, what I am referring to as RPG elements are Stats,
equipment, weapons, and loot. Mass Effect 1 had an inventory system with
weapons that each had unique stats in the form of numbers (like most RPGs
in the market), but due to a clunky UI it made handling the loot/equipment
bothersome, leading to the removal of all stats/loot in general. Mass
Effect 3 is called an RPG by many people in the industry, yet the only really
RPG element it boasts is the levelling mechanic. I really do with that
there would be a complete revision of the UI to accolade some sort of
armour/weapon/equipment loot system with REAL stats and numbers behind it.
While ME3 did try to bring some sort of RPG elements and customization in
the form of armour tweaks, weapon add-ons, etc, it still felt fairly
bare-bones and simple. 
Choices: While
the choice/dialogue system is a great feat in terms of player choice and
storytelling, there is one thing that has held it back throughout all 3
games, Mass Effect 3 in particular. That specific thing is the lack of
impact. While it is very fun to make decisions that impact many things
throughout the game, and past desitions from past games making an impact
on some things in the 3rd game, it all comes down to one question for me,
"What will this do to change the story?" For example, In Mass
Effect 2 suicide mission, our progress and preporation throughout the game
have lead the player to the end and will impact how the ending happens. Although,
there is no sense of consequence. Even if the entire crew of the Normandy
and more than half of my squad dies, I am still given the same
choice/outcome. And I am still given what was seen as "The biggest
choice of the game" of destroying, or preserving the collector base
at the end. No matter what, I have the choice at the end, despite my
previous choices throughout the game, and it seems as if you really have
to try and kill yourself at the end by not gaining any loyalty. Moving on
to Mass Effect 3, specifically the 'consequence' of not destroying the
reaper base. The only 'consequence' is that I get more galactic readiness.
That doesn’t seem necessarily like an important decision to me. And moving
on to the ending of ME3, no matter the choices I’ve made throughout the
past 3 games (let alone the 3rd game) I am still given a choice at the end
that makes my past choices feel irrelevant as I can make any of the 3
choices no matter what choices I’ve made before. This heavily discourages replay
ability as I can just revert to my save from before the final mission, and
just pick a different ending option, regardless of my choices prior. This
also ties in to the ending; No matter what choice I’ve made at the end, it
feels as if it is moot. That seems to be a general theme throughout the
trilogy. When I had to kill Mordin Solus, the only consequence was he was
dead and I had more galactic readiness (which I am still failing to see
the point of). I just wish there was much more of a feeling of impact and consequence.
[/list]
Generally though, I still
enjoyed my playthrough, just not nearly as much as Mass Effect 2 or the few
hours I’ve spent with Mass Effect 1. I really hope that you take these
critiques seriously as I am a massive fan of the series, and really have a
great connection with the series. I would really hate for the feeling I have
with it feel soiled. Before I finish though, I would just like to compliment a
few things that I feel have been improved: combat; for making the shooting more
fun, and multiplayer (although, it currently feels a tad bit barebones in terms
of gametypes). I still have many more small issues with ME3 but don't feel they
need the amount of detail that my other issues do: Graphical/polish issues
(especially on the PS3 version. Those eyes look awful to me, and my Sheppard
didn't import very well into ME3), layout of the Normandy (I shouldn't have to
watch 2-3 loading screens to have to customize my armour, weapons, etc before
going out on a mission, it should mostly be on the same floor as the galaxy
map), the seemingly 'shoe-in' character Diana Allers, etc.



Thanks again for allowing fan feedback, I really
appreciate it and hope the Devs have learned from their experience of making
ME3, and make even better experiences. 

[Meruvian]

LucidStrike wrote...

oneyedjohn wrote...

Meruvian wrote...

NovaM4 wrote...

Lambchopz wrote...

No idea if it's been posted yet, but here's an image of a fan made diagram imagining how choices in ME3 could have mattered in the ending. Posting because somebody asked me to.

You need to zoom in to get a better idea of it.

i.imgur.com/JhtqY.jpg

(snipped the image)

Bioware should really take a look at this!
and i think the fans are liking this too!

I love this idea! Maybe they could even make certain parts playable similar to the 'make Joker limp to EDI' part in ME2. So you can play as Jack and experience these events unfolding. 

The fact that this idea shows the player what happens is a great improvement on what we have now, and it leaves out the god-child, which is a plot that is added too late and frankly doesn't work at all.

I understand that this idea would take a lot more development time than a simple DLC, and is perhaps more along the scope of a more traditional expansion pack. (ME3, the ACTUAL battle for earth)
Which to us fans would mean it would be a longer wait, and potentially more costly, but personally I think that would be worth it.


Whoever originally made this schematic, thank you!

I like the chart too.

Honestly, this entirely thread might as well be reposts of that chart. It's pretty much perfect, especially the way it gets rid of the "pick your poison" ending and just lets effects from causes.

Especially because the poison makes no sense. Why build in these three failsaves? And why, if you want to have failsaves would they not be opperated by three buttons? Because it is a cheap way to write in the sacrifice, which renders it (the sacrifice) meaningless.

Modifié par Meruvian, 18 mars 2012 - 10:17 .

[Taldek]

AgenTBC wrote...

I'm starting to get a bad feeling about this. I found the endings disappointing, primarily for the lack of closure and the plot holes (what the heck is the Normandy doing? Why would my crew flee like this?) and such. I have no problem with dark, even bleak endings. And I fear that the incredibly negative reaction will cause Bioware to overcompensate and, in an effort to appease the most strident detractors, overcorrect and make things worse.

Bioware, I hope you are listening to people's legitimate criticism of the lack of closure and plot holes, but I hope you guys are able to keep your heads on straight and recognize the line between legitimate complaints and people who want a wish-fulfillment or bland and generic happy ending.

To put it another way; Sometimes you shouldn't give people what they want. You should give them what they need. This is not always the same thing.

I also have a bad feeling about this aswell, but there should be multiple endings so that those who wish for happy endings and those who want a truly heroic ending of shep commiting the ultimate sacrafice to save the day can both be pleased.

[TheBigShinz]

Dubbelfris wrote...

Meruvian wrote...

NovaM4 wrote...

Lambchopz wrote...

No idea if it's been posted yet, but here's an image of a fan made diagram imagining how choices in ME3 could have mattered in the ending. Posting because somebody asked me to.

You need to zoom in to get a better idea of it.

i.imgur.com/JhtqY.jpg

Bioware should really take a look at this!
and i think the fans are liking this too!

I love this idea! Maybe they could even make certain parts playable similar to the 'make Joker limp to EDI' part in ME2. So you can play as Jack and experience these events unfolding. 

The fact that this idea shows the player what happens is a great improvement on what we have now, and it leaves out the god-child, which is a plot that is added too late and frankly doesn't work at all.

I understand that this idea would take a lot more development time than a simple DLC, and is perhaps more along the scope of a more traditional expansion pack. (ME3, the ACTUAL battle for earth)
Which to us fans would mean it would be a longer wait, and potentially more costly, but personally I think that would be worth it.


Whoever originally made this schematic, thank you!

And I would like to add that this whole affair is made more sour because Bioware has made some of my most beloved games ever, and I really WANT to keep loving the company and it's products. So it saddens me that I cannot say to my friends when they ask about ME3 that I loved it.

But I remain hopeful that by making an excellent idea like this one come true they will restore my faith.

Edit: Here's a look at what was wrong with the endings. Although I'm aware this might not be the most constructive criticism. I do hope that it helps people at the dev/writing team understand why certain elements may look great as isolated ideas on paper, but didn't work for this franchise in practice:
(I know some of these have already been mentioned probably, but didn't feel like backtracking this entire thread)

http://angryjoeshow....fect-3s-ending/ 
http://calitreview.com/24673 
http://www.gamefront...fans-are-right/ 
http://www.forbes.co...ffect-3-ending/ 

^ this 100%

[RaenImrahl]

crimzontearz wrote...

If I wanted to be given what I "need" I would ****ing go to a phylosophy class orwatch the news Agent....got it?

how about we give OPTIONS so everyone is happy? or are you in possess of objective and superior ****ing truth?

This is not constructive. 

[Kadi]

The Combat was brilliant, and the story was very well written, voice acting was top as always, and the music was just lush.

however i did have a few gripes, first being I wanted more interactive dialogue, while i loved the story and the writing, i felt like i wasn't getting much choice.

More Harbinger, I mean in mass effect 2 I loved him so much, he was a great villain, and I looked forward to a climatic battle against him, whether using the Normandy or fighting an indoctrinated person. why? because I felt it was personal with Harbinger, after Mass effect 2. he was a dangerous and powerful foe, worthy of being the face of the reapers in my opinion.

Now the endings. I chose, the synthesis ending, which i liked the idea of, except that the relays had to be destroyed, I did not like that at all, because it strands the fleet, and makes all the hard work i put into the game barely mean a thing, whats the point in curing the genophage if half the krogans are fighting with me in the Sol system, I wanted to have a bigger montage of squad mates and their emotions when the crucible is doing its magic. a section after with Admiral Hackett and co, honoring Commander Shepard, maybe. and perhaps a look at what the characters are doing, after, how the galaxy can and may recover.

and lastly, the mass effect main theme to play on the credits. if possible one that brings the science fictional interest of the first games theme with the epicness of mass effect 2's main theme, held together by maybe longer notes played together to give a bigger epic and emotional feeling, to compliment the amazing story.

[R3MUS]

Eleventhchild wrote...

More Harbinger, I mean in mass effect 2 I loved him so much, he was a great villain, and I looked forward to a climatic battle against him, whether using the Normandy or fighting an indoctrinated person. why? because I felt it was personal with Harbinger, after Mass effect 2. he was a dangerous and powerful foe, worthy of being the face of the reapers in my opinion.

Thank you. Thank you. Thank you, for your wonderful post.

[MetalCargo999]

I just watched the new trailer on the ME website with the pro reviews. Reminded me just how awesome 99% of the game was. Really superb. Stupendous, even. Just felt like a little positive feedback might be nice.