7052 réponses à ce sujet

[cobnut]

For me the issues start as soon as you wake up after harbingers attack. It was too slow and became too "semiphilosophical". Since ME1 I just wanted to kick some reaper asses, throw all at them the galaxy has and finally ring them down at the cost of big losses. I was hoping the catalyst brings their shields down or that EDI finds a way to hack the reaper hive mind for the same purpose. Something like that. A huge spacebattle.

I want to FIGHT them, not to parley with them. I don't want to understand them. They're beyond my comprehension and they are a threat to everybody in the galaxy. That's enough.

So please, if you plan to change the ending, let us storm the Citadel. Let us fight alongside our squadmates, Anderson, some remains of Hammer and the Citadel War Assets against hordes of reaper troops until we reach the top of the citadel tower. Let us take back the citadel and then let us take back the earth as promised. I want to see every (or at least the important ones) race, fleet and platoon I gathered kicking reaper asses.

That's what I call a satisfying ending. You're free to disagree though.

[euology2000]

I'm really very disappointed in ME3. For a number of reasons and not all of them dealing explicitly with the ending.

1. Dialog choices - All of ME3, even in the full RPG mode, I felt like I was out of control of my Shepard. What happened to the middle "neutral" option? The depth of conversation and interaction was just missing for the game. I felt like I was watching a movie, not being MY Commander Shepard.

2. Grinding - this game felt more like a grind fest than an open RPG. I felt as if I had to run around the Citadel every other mission and bother/talk/approach random NPC's who don't even give you REAL dialog. You just "overhear" them. I'm sorry but that's just not enough, it felt like a grind fest, between the asset planet scanning and running back and forth back and forth across the citadel...

3 Time - I played on my afternoons/evenings after work and beat this entire game (did ALL side stuff single player -scanning etc) save finding only 2/3 of the horizon items for one quest in 4 days. Really? 4 afternoon/evening play sessions and I'm done? That's it? That's all? I got told this was a 100+ hour game... I call shenanigans. I'm sure it can be if you multiplayer, but I don't do that. I certainly didn't get what I thought would be my "times" worth in ME3 (especially considering most of it was me running around the citadel).

4. Mulitplayer - why in the nine hells would I "a RP" gamer want to mulitplay. Oh.. that's right. it's the only way to get max war assets.

5. War assets? Why is this the main goal of this game? Why does this dictate how I relate/what ending I get with the crucible/catalsyt? This should simply dictate how easy the war back on earth with the reapers is. This should have NOTHING to do with how "I" Shepard deal with the "Child".

6. Ending - I don't mind hero's dying. I'm a fan of writers who have no problem killing off strong, important characters. Heck, I don't even mind when that death seems to serve no purpose, as long as there is plenty of supporting and informative dialog that follows it up. Shock is good. When done well. The shock you gave us was not good. It was poorly written, poorly executed and lacked everything that Mass Effect is, was and should have been.

7. Ending Choices. Where were mine? I couldn't ask a question, I couldn't shoot that little punk in his face. I ran away for every dream sequence and still that kid was part of my Sheps physce? My Shepard doesn't dwell on what was, there is only moving forward as a Paragon (with a touch of renegade.) Where were my choices? Everything was forced. (Unless it was indoctrination) I just don't understand the need to cannon ball the ending .

8. Ending 2 - Party/Planet/Galaxy follow up scenes? Ok, I can accept Shepard dying (or possibly living in the Best ending) Where are the follows ups for everybody/everything else (or them pulling a F'd up Shepard from a pile of rubble). I'm emotionally invested in these people and places. The bit with Joker and the Normandy wasn't a "follow up" ending, it didn't even make sense. I'm not going to repeat what everybody else said about it. The in-continuity with it is obvious.

---
I can only hope that you give us closure. That you fix this train wreck of an ending.

In my head I've already come to term with the fact the only reason that ending happened was because of Shepard being indoctrinated. Everything from the point Harbinger blasted the ascent party to the end was just my fem Shep's fighting off Reaper indoctrination. I can only hope that was the case. I've almost accepted that as the fact of the matter, nothing else makes any sense and seems contradictory to everything the game trilogy stood for.

[Frosteeze]

loungeshep wrote...

Just don't have it where Shepard is indoctrinated. That would negate the whole thing.

The only thing I can say is the end Inc right after the choice should have more, there should be more than just Normandy crash lands. Either give is a third option(a don't take star child's choices) option, show the races when the war ends. Let us see some of the sweet with the bitter.

If they do have Shepard not indoctrinated, they better explain how he/she avoided it after all this time running around inside Reaper ships, touching Reaper artifacts, talking to Reapers...well, you get the idea.

Modifié par Frosteeze, 19 mars 2012 - 05:50 .

[gynoid]

On the bleak quality and the lack of a true happy ending:Mass Effect 1 and 2 are not happy games, and lots of bad things happen, but I don't think they have the same desperate darkness as Mass Effect 3. This darkness is apparent from the beginning, of course: a child is killed, pretty much on-screen, which is a thing most films won't touch. It wasn't tasteless (the shuttle blows up, no actual child explosion is seen) but it was a definite message: bad things are going to happen, and you are going to be powerless to stop them.

Later, Thane. I spent Mass Effect 2 thinking (hoping, really) that surely, surely BioWare would save him because he's a romance option, but deep down I had a feeling that he would die (one of the first things he says about himself is that he's dying. Fairly fundamental part of the character there). He does die, and it's horrible, and it doesn't matter what you did as a player. I had to stop playing the game for a bit because I was crying so much. The willingness to engage with gritty, dark themes is brave and interesting, and the possibility that Shepard may not survive is therefore ingrained into the core of the game.

The thing is, tragedy is at its most moving and poignant when accompanied with comedy, and you get this in abundance. Warm character interactions, hilarious in-jokes, and familar faces all raise the emotional stakes to make Mass Effect 3 an incredibly effective and affective experience. I'm pretty sure I ran through the full range of human emotion when playing this game, and that in itself is a triumph. The feelings of powerlessness that you frequently experience only serve to heighten the stakes whenever there are choices you can make - I know I'm not the only one who sometimes sat at my computer and agonised over a decision.

The actual facts surrounding the ending, however, are something I think I can criticise. I don't think that the idea of someone controlling the Reapers should have been a surprise - again, I think this is foreshadowed quite well. I do think that there was too much information given to the player right at the very end, after what is an utterly incredible bit of gameplay where you are stripped of your ability to move, to attack, and of your companions. There is perhaps too much to take in and the pacing was, for me, slightly off.

I'm totally okay with the Reapers being part of the cycle themselves, of an AI deciding in its completely inhuman way that a purging/cleansing cycle is the best way to prevent what it has decided (this is key - think of Legion and its complete inability to relate to organics on some levels) is a galactic inevitability. It seems like a very pragmatic and narrow viewpoint, which is surely what one would expect from an AI, which should think in terms of efficiency and not in terms of ethics or morals.

However, most of these thoughts came to me after the fact. At the time of playing, the three choices were all-consuming, and I think a bit more time to consider the true nature of the Reapers and their controlling AI would have been helpful, because I was sitting there feeling fairly stunned. The choices themselves were simple enough; I have no real problem with them save for the "green" option - is it possible only because Shepard has cybernetic implants, and is therefore an ideal blueprint for a combination of synthetic or organic life? And if so, why had the AI not tried this before? (The other two options are probably not as attractive to the AI as just continuing the cycle, but the symbiosis seems like a real boon for everything and everyone.) I feel like there are some logic gaps there.

The only thing left that really did feel lacking to me was the epilogue. I chose the green ending and there is a great video with EDI and Joker on their new world, but because this game was such an ensemble performance, I really wanted to know the fates of all my crew. Also, the implications of the Mass Relays no longer working are huge, and I wanted to know more about that too. I don't think, unlike some, that the game is reduced to a single choice at the end, but I do think that a widening of the scope of the epilogue would have brought more closure, and more illumination of the fact that there were lots of choices to make along the way. (I can't even imagine how different my next playthrough, with my Renegade Shepard, is going to be.)

Still, this is all moot. Do I think any of these things should actually be addressed by BioWare now? Not really. This is how they chose to make the game and I believe very, very strongly in their right to make it however they want (and of course, in their customers' right to purchase it or not). The incredible nature of the entire 30+ hours previous to the fifteen minutes at the end made it more than worthwhile. Excluding the few niggles I had with the ending, I think that every other aspect of the game has been improved tenfold from the previous two (and I loved those games). There are so many details that I could go on about, but this is long enough already. Thank you for a wonderful ride, BioWare. You've created something that has had me more emotionally engaged than anything in any other media in a very long time.

Also, the multiplayer is amazing.

Modifié par Mazohyst, 19 mars 2012 - 05:47 .

[FaultenXIII]

Here is my own constructive critique for the Mass Effect 3. Like many posters above, and probably below, my main problem with the game came from the ending. In advance I apologize if this turns into a giant wall of text.

1.) Impact of previous choices: This is perhaps the biggest complaint I had with Mass Effect 3's endings. For a series that has built itself on the impact of player choice and divergent story paths, the ending seemed to not be affected at all by Shepard's previous choices. For me this seemed to fly in the face of the time I invested in the previous two games. What about all the time I spent trying to save the Rachni Queen? The Krogan? The Geth? To have all of these emotional choices reduced to something as small as a statistical input at the endgame seemed to cheapen them for me.

2.) Lack of closure: Now I know that the development team wanted to give the ending of Mass Effect 3 a degree of ambiguity so that fans could draw their own conclusion. However I think they may have reached to far and wound up with just plain confusion. For a game that has it's hallmarks in it's rich lore and fleshed out characters, the ending seemed to drop everything and run. I was really hoping to learn what happened to the rest of the galaxy and how my Shepard's choices affected the future of the Milky Way. Would Wrex cave to tribal pressures and begin a new series of Krogan Rebellions? Would the Salarian Daletress (sp?) seek to undue the Genophage cure? Could the Quarians and the Geth truly coexist peacefully on Rannoch? I wouldn't want Bioware to spell out everything for me, but borrowing from Dragon Age: Origins & Jade Empire, a nice text blurb detailing what they've been up to would have left me satisfied.

3.)Why couldn't I debate the Catalyst: The dialogue with the Catalyst/Star Child/ That Kid, seemed rather forced and didn't make sense for Shepard. Just moments ago I was locked in a battle of wills with a Reaperized Illusive Man, a character with an already massive and well documented ego, and managed to convince even him that there was a better way to deal with the Reapers. To go through all of that and then be told that here are your three choices seems to really cheapen the moment.

4.) The Crucible: Why even build it if it didn't really do anything? I know that simply having the Crucible as a big gun would be a cheap explination, but simply having it summon the Catalyst at the last few moments of the story seemed even moreso and confusing to boot. Something that would have made sense to me would be to have the Crucible still be a weapon, but not one in the conventional sense. Maybe it could have shut down the Reaper shields for a set amount of time (a' la' Independence Day) or perhaps upload a virus to damage the Reapers in someway.

5.) The endings themselves: In presentation and explination the 3 available endings were more or less identical. At their philosophical core they maybe vastly different, but for me they seemed pretty much the same for all intents and pruposes. In the 'Control' ending you get a blue explosion. In 'Destroy' you get a red explosion. Lastly in 'Synthesis' you get a green explosion. The only difference in these is the possibility that in 'Destroy' , Shepard might live. The problems I had in this are further compounded by my earlier complaints about the lack of closure and choice. It would be one thing if Shepard sacrificed themself to save the galaxy and we had a nice epilogue explaining the fates of the other races and party memebers. However that is not what happened, it is quite something different to have three almost identical endings and no epiloge explainging the fates of the rest of the supporting cast.

So there are my critiques for the endings of Mass Effect 3. Take them or leave, all I hope is that I have contributed something to the discussion.

[milkymcmilkerson]

Here are some of the issues I have with the ending;

The most glaring problem I saw was that some aspects of the ending that were intentionally vague were needlessly so. One major example would be the Normandy scene after the mass relay explosions. Why was the Normandy in the middle of a mass effect jump, and how did the other squad members, who were all in London prior to the ending fighting with other squads, end up on the Normandy? The withholding of that information doesn't really create constructive debate but instead just confusion since there are apparent logistical problems leading to that scene (the other squad members, in the middle of the most heated ground, air and space battle in the series, would have had to get into shuttles, dock in the Normandy, then the ship would have had to flee the battle while it was still raging on, which is counter to the actions of any of the characters that fought along Shepard, who were all just as gung-ho as the main character to fight the Reapers).

My second issue is with the inclusion of the Reaper God/AI Boy. It seemed artless and was unnecessary to introduce a new character so late into the story, especially to take on a role that could have easily been filled by Harbinger, who, in my mind, had been established as the main antagonist.

Furthermore, the logic behind the Reaper God/AI Boy's exposition was pretty silly and contradictory to his own existence. He says the Reapers were designed to solve the problem between organics and synthetics, yet their solution, as synthetics themselves, is to wage war on organics. Why don't they just wipe themselves out? Furthermore, their stated purpose is to protect organics from synthetics, not the other way around, though it's been established in the game that it's the organics that are the problem (the revelation about the real cause of the Geth problem). Also, how does synthesis help anything or even work, beyond being just space sorcery? And couldn't these new, "evolved" beings just create new "synthetics" and start the cycle all over again, or are all metals in the universe now partially organic, even before being mined? Basically, my issues with that whole sequence and the supposed "good" choice is that they're immediately illogical and contradictory of themselves.

It would have been much better to just keep it simple. No one was expecting or wanting a big twist at the end regarding the Reapers. I was perfectly content with them being some super manevolent synthetic species that has it in for organic life (i.e. The Assassins in Frederick Pohl's Gateway series). I don't need them to have mroe layers than that, and adding complexity doesn't always make the villian mroe interesting. For example, do we really need to know why Iago hates Othello so much, or does he work more because of the ambiguity?

I think, if it were to change somehow, then the only logical explanation would be the indoctrination theory, and that the good version of the destruction ending is the only one that would move the story along to a new ending (the one where Shepard is show as being possibly alive, and in London in the end). Then all the inconsistencies and illogical turns I just laid out would be null and void.

But these are really issues that should have been worked out prior to launch. I don't know what the writing process is at Bioware, but you guys might want to think about workshopping the stories throughout the design process, maybe with writers who are on other projects, to get objective feedback from peers (not fans) on what's working, what's not, and what's obviously wrong and needs to be fixed.

EDIT: Also, I'd like to say that I think the best way to have ended the game would have been four endings; two sets of two endings, where the sets are distinctively different and based on how well you did with the galactic readiness in ME3, and within the sets there would be paragon/renegade versions that are determined by those two stats. Therefore, the player wouldn't choose an ending, but rather be presented one based on how they played the last three games.

Modifié par milkymcmilkerson, 19 mars 2012 - 06:36 .

[Veregan]

www.youtube.com/watch

I honestly think the guy in this video covers everything that needs to be said. He goes over how the ending could be changed and how an epilogue should have been implemented. Its a 30 min video but he makes some excellent points. The best parts are in the last 10 minutes where he goes over what I think most people have a problem with, our Shepards fate. Even in the "best ending" Shepard is left half dead in a pile of rubble while his LI and the rest of the normandys crew are stranded on some distant planet, never to be seen by our hero again. Doesn't really seem much of a victory to me. With all the relays gone and a vast fleet of alien races stranded over earth, never to see their homes again, the universe is left in such a depressing state. Its not an ending I want to replay the game to see.

Anyone angry with the endings because of the fate of their Shepard dissapointed them, I highly suggest you follow the link. His ideas would appeal highly to most of you.

The rest of the game was truly incredible, the ending is the only thing that I would like changing. Not only does it not make any sense in regards to the whole "We made synthetics to kill organics so that they couldnt be killed by synthetics" catalyst speech, but its incredibly depressing that after all the effort we put into uniting a galaxy to fight the reapers, even the best ending rewards us with nothing but unhappiness. 

[nexesotaku]

xI DoMo Ix wrote...

www.youtube.com/watch

I honestly think the guy in this video covers everything that needs to be said. He goes over how the ending could be changed and how an epilogue should have been implemented. Its a 30 min video but he makes some excellent points. The best parts are in the last 10 minutes where he goes over what I think most people have a problem with, our Shepards fate. Even in the "best ending" Shepard is left half dead in a pile of rubble while his LI and the rest of the normandys crew are stranded on some distant planet, never to be seen by our hero again. Doesn't really seem much of a victory to me. With all the relays gone and a vast fleet of alien races stranded over earth, never to see their homes again, the universe is left in such a depressing state. Its not an ending I want to replay the game to see.

Anyone angry with the endings because of the fate of their Shepard dissapointed them, I highly suggest you follow the link. His ideas would appeal highly to most of you.

The rest of the game was truly incredible, the ending is the only thing that I would like changing. Not only does it not make any sense in regards to the whole "We made synthetics to kill organics so that they couldnt be killed by synthetics" catalyst speech, but its incredibly depressing that after all the effort we put into uniting a galaxy to fight the reapers, even the best ending rewards us with nothing but unhappiness. 

[MetalCargo999]

Hello Bioware people! I'm posting a link to a very interesting article I read about Mass Effect 3's ending.

http://www.themetaga...ml#comment-form

I'm not giving anymore of my comments though, since I already posted earlier in this thread with some of my own feedback. This article is fantastic, however, so check it.

[Kenza]

First of all, thank you so much for listening/reading!

To start, some small things that bugged me.

Animations.
Alot of them seemed rushed and/or not perfect, but thats probably just me being picky so, eh. But two that really stood out were:

Eyes - Often the top of of the iris wouldn't be touching the top of the eyelid. This really makes the person look like they're uh... posessed or something. Its very disconcerting.

Kaidan in the hospital - When he's in the bed, it's incredibly awkward, half the time he's hovering his back just off the bed a bit, and it reaally looks uncomfortable. He should either just stay laying down, or prop himself up on his elbows, half and half is just... awkward. Is this the same way for Ash? Haven't played with her yet. D:

Don't get me wrong, there are many many more wonderfully done animations!

And moving on to other misc things...

More reward for staying loyal to your LI! I would have loved a special cutscene just for us! Or maybe a special upgrade bonus, "When partied with ____ get ____ bonus." Or maybe the option to get married at the end of the game... *dreams*

The Journal - It would be nice if it updated. "Look for this, bring to this person." "You've found this, now bring to this person." Also, when/if you fail an assignment, it should specify that it's been failed, not just put in the completed quests with the rest. Maybe display in redish grey or change the title to "Failed: Whatever quest name." I don't like not knowing that I'm missing stuff...

Spectre Ceremoney - I think I heard on the news that this happened. I missed it?! D: I would have loved to attend for Kaidan/Ash!

Neutral options - There's very few of them. I don't really mind this too much usualy, but I really miss them during potential romance conversations. People are all like "I'm hitting on you." Shepard can be like "I'm totaly hitting on you too!" or "NO, REJECTED." This is when i miss the neutral option for Shepard to just shrug it off with a sarcastic comment or something not mean. I hate being mean. D:


And now the important stuff!

The Ending.
I really like the indoctrination theory, cause it means you don't need to retcon the end. just continue it.

With or without the indoctrination threory, what I would really like is some closure.

I want to know what happens to my squadmates most of all. Does Tali get to build her house on Rannok? Does Garrus find his family? Does Wrex go tell stories about Shepard on Tuchanka? Does my Shepard get to keep her promise to her LI?!

I want to know what happens to the rest of the galaxy. Does curing the genophage turn out to be a horrible idea? Do the Rachni go back to not causing trouble like she said they would? Is everyone stranded at Sol? Do we rebuild the citadel? Do the Geth and Quarians continue to live in peace?

Something similar to ME2's suicide mission, where you get to assign your squademates' jobs that determin if they live or die in the last battle would be fantastic. It really makes it feel like everyone is making a difference, and your choices affect things right up to the end.

I want to see my assets affecting things. Yes I know
the total of you assets score affect the outcome... But I want to
actualy SEE them doing what they do. The scientists working away, the
Turians and Krogan attacking the Reapers, Jack with her students, Elcor
tanks, Eclipse mechs, ect, ect. Just a few 3 second cutscenes of a
random number of these in the ending battle would be awesome...

I want multiple versions of the ending. If you fail, the Reapers can win, everybody dies, the end. Shepard could be a martyr and save everyone, leaving the LI super emo at Shepard's funeral. Shepard could die with LI and they both save everyone. Shepard could save everyone and live happily ever after with his/her LI (idealy this should be the hardest to get?). Or any variations of these where they save some but not all of everyone, based on the choices you've made.


Annnnddd, last but not least...
I would really like to be able to import my shepards face, that I've been using since ME1, properly.   ._.


Things I loved! I know this is supposed to just be feedback for changes, so I'll try to keep it short, but I'd feel bad not pointing out at least some of the awesome so its not just complaining!

Death scenes - They were fantastic! ; ; Mordin, Legion, Thane it was so sad and absolutely aweome!

The music! - I love it! Some of the tracks are so... epic. I really wish there was an excuse to use more Overlord music, it's one of the best! Maybe in a DLC?  SO AWESOME.

Calibrations! - And the many other ongoing jokes throughout the game, there were sooo many times I just burst out laughing at all the funnies, it was great~  A WHOLE 17 CREDITS!

Theres so much more, but those are difinitely top 3!

THANK YOU FOR THE AWESOMES!

[Deklan_Caine]

I've already posted in other places, but I'll put a brief summary of my feedback here.

Preface: most of the game was AMAZING! I was constantly blown away (in a good way) at every turn, right up until the end. The ending is the only thing I have problems with, and the ending was so catastrophically bad that it truly ruined the rest of the amazing experience for me.

1) The plot holes are gargantuan. I'm not going to recap them all; other users have done a good job. I don't care about specifics really, I just would like an ending that makes sense and is plausible within the context of the established ME universe.

2) The three "choices" don't seem much like choices. There is a lack of SIGNIFICANT variation in the available endings; they're the same for the most part. I would like to see an ending with choices that allow for at least two or three DRAMATICALLY different endings. (Sacrificing Earth for the rest of the galaxy verses sacrificing everyone else for Earth, for example, would be two dramatically different choices and actually play into the typical paragon/renegade choice paradigm).

3) There is no closure. What is everyone stranded in the Sol system going to do now that the Relays are gone? Where the heck was the Normandy (not to mention why the heck was it RUNNING AWAY from the fight)? Once more, I don't want all the details about how every individual's life plays out: I just want to be left without HUGE questions.

If you want a fuller picture of my complete reaction to the end, you can read it here:
http://social.biowar...5/index/9876505

[VibrantYacht]

I know my last response was pretty useless (not that it had any reason to be remembered), but regarding your update asking for what each individual wants, what I would want the most would be for the original story to remain intact (the one that Drew Karpyshyn "meticulously outlined"). I heavily doubt this to be a possibility, but it's what this one would like. Thanks again for making this thread. It is much appreciated.
... this probably wasn't all that helpful either...

[jones81381]

VibrantYacht wrote...

I know my last response was pretty useless (not that it had any reason to be remembered), but regarding your update asking for what each individual wants, what I would want the most would be for the original story to remain intact (the one that Drew Karpyshyn "meticulously outlined"). I heavily doubt this to be a possibility, but it's what this one would like. Thanks again for making this thread. It is much appreciated.
... this probably wasn't all that helpful either...

Can you link to said outline? I avoided any spoilers like the plague during the series so I have no idea what outline you're talking about or who this Drew fellow is.

[Naarad]

 I'll share my feedback about the ending (which I originally talked about here)

-Reaper Child God: The concept of a "deity" (so to speak) in sci-fi is regularly used and it's not necessarily out of place. Except in this case we get no context for him to exist at all. He's the catalyst and the Citadel itself. Alright, the Citadel is some kind of Reaper God, I can deal with that. I can't deal with the fact that he's both solution and problem, and he created a solution for an entirely different problem which he basically made up. There's no proof at all throughout the whole Mass Effect universe that synthetics destroy organics in the long run. There's nothing the writers hinted us at to know that. Right.

-The Reapers: From ME1 to ME3 they've moved from extermination beasts to the saviors of super advanced species. Sounds like a retcon, though you could argue Sovereign and the rest of reapers themselves aren't really aware of their purpose in the universe, it's a long shot, but alright. So... the proto human reaper at the Collector's Base wasn't in fact, a human in reaper form? That screams "mission accomplished" in so many levels (based on the Catalyst words) I wonder why the reapers didn't came way earlier in ME2. It's a contradiction: "Hey, we've got humans in Reaper form, but let's not wipe them yet!" and doesn't sit well with what happens in ME3. If the Reapers are saviors, why is Astroboy the Catalyst (solution) to his own solution? It's not that is a bad solution. It's not that it's a Deus Ex Machina. It's about an overused place (seriously, the Citadel is the Catalyst, it's a Reaper God, and a Mass Relay) becoming the scapegoat for a labyrinth with no obvious exit.

-Shepard: For the first time in the whole series, we see Shepard doubt (and I mean a real doubt, not a "should I do this thing, or do this other thing?" because he understands the consequences of each choice). He does at the very end, when he asks the Catalyst "Do you know how can I stop the reapers?". After having been a hero, a character to look up at (in-universe) he is presented to us as a troubled individual who doesn't know what to do when presented with 3 choices. Despite the fact that from the moment he discovers the reapers, he does have a clear goal in his mind: Stop them. Right, you could argue he doesn't know which solution to take because all 3 do stop the reapers, but there's no proof to that. Suddenly the character loses all its personality right at the last moment, at the very end. It's dramatic, but in a completely different way...

-The stranded Normandy and the Stargazer: There's no context to either of them. Stargazer looks to me more as a literary resource (your character is now a legend, after centuries/millenia have passed, congrats!) but he lacks context, he's not really useful as an epilogue either.

The same issue affects the Normandy. We don't know if this happens at the same time than Shepard's choice (which makes little sense as to why they're flying away if they've won) and we don't have any context at all. Just a pretty image. Yeah, life goes on, big deal, that's pretty much about it.

So, to sum it up. The ending itself is fine. Is a neat idea that trys to present a philosophical debate. I can live with that. But the way it's presented is less than ideal because there's way too much new information without any real context to it.

Modifié par Naarad, 19 mars 2012 - 06:10 .

[leapingmonkeys]

jones81381 wrote...

jreezy wrote...

clutzo the hopless wrote...

Frostfiend wrote...

leapingmonkeys wrote...

Oh yeah, someone mentioned the whole "multiplayer" thing. Kill it. Kill it hard. It is annoying as heck that MP impacts the ability of one to win in single-player mode. It is a ham-handed attempt to force everyone into playing MP, which is frankly repulsive.

The multiplayer should not impact the single player game since not everyone can or want to play the MP parts.

Indeed; I don't have the bandwidth for multiplayer, and was disappointed to see that it had an impact on the campaign.  I was hoping that multiplayer matches could be advantageous in unlocking new choices, but not necessary.

It does have an impact? How?

Well truthfully, as is it doesn't really have an impact but through multiplayer matches you can raise your galactic readiness multiplier from the base 50% all the way up to 100%. The galactic readiness multipler is how the game determines how strong your fleets will be in the end battle. If it's at 50%, then they are at half strength so if they are at 6000 total strength, effective strength will be 3000.

That is correct.  MP only raises the "Galactic Readiness" which, in turn, increases one's Effective Mlitary Strength (EMS).  There are many problems with this.

First, EMS has no impact on the game play.  Its only impact is to look up in a table at the end of the game to decide which colorized ending to show to you.  It does not impact the game play in anyway.

Secondly, it is incredibly opaque.  For example, even having played the game and then gone back and read through forums and other posts, I cannot tell whether re-writing the Heretics in ME2 helped me or hurt me.  I cannot tell because it is rolled up in some inscrutible manner into this final EMS rating.  I cannot tell what the options are or what doors they opened or closed.  Same is true regarding all the other major decisions of ME1/ME2 - saving the Council, saving the Rachni Queen, Rewriting the Geth, Saving the Collector Base, saving the Genophase Cure.  All were major decisions in the earlier games.  All had inscrutible impact on the final EMS rating whose only impact was to choose a video at the end of ME3.

Thirdly, it appears that one needs an EMS of 4,000 or more to get the "Shepard Lives" final video.  Without MP that requires 8,000 Total Military Strength (TMS).  Bioware has claimed that one can reach that level and therefore you do not need to play MP.  However, from what I can tell, having done a fair amount of research on this, one can only reach 8,000 TMS by playing ME1 and ME2 and all the DLC and making the "right" choices all along.  I started playing with ME2 and I've not played the DLC and when I look at my final TMS in ME3 it appears that when I imported my ME2 game it provided non-optimal results for the game components that I had not played.  There was a penalty to the 3rd Fleet Strength based on saving Amanda somebody-or-other, which was apparently the "bad" ending from the DLC named "The Arrival".  Urdnot Wrex is dead by default, which is sub-optimal.  The Rachni Queen is dead by default, which is non-optimal.  Those are just the ones that I was able to confirm.  I'm sure there must be other TMS penalities that get set by default unless one actually played the relevant content from ME1/ME2/DLCs.

I've seen numerous other posts from other reporting the same end conditions that I ran into - all of which reported that reaching 8,000 TMS did not appear to be possible.

This is just one more example of how Bioware said something that may be technically true, but which is certainly misleading.

[EndrzGame]

There was a great game that Bioware released a few years ago called Dragon Age:Origins. In that game you made all kinds of decisions about the fate of different nations and races, NPC's living and dieing, etc, etc. Granted it wasn't the end of a long trilogy, but my first play-through was @ 75 hours.
At the end of that game there was a cool written epilogue that showed what happened to your party member's, (if they survived), your love interest and what not, and it gave closure to what was a fantastic story. If you go back and replay the game and make different choices you get a different epilogue. I was expecting something along the lines of that since ya know, you've done it before, or at least something coherent.
So no, you don't have to change the whole thing. Just give us a epilogue that makes sense. Cause what we got went against everything I'd come to expect from this great story.

[Deklan_Caine]

MetalCargo999 wrote...

Hello Bioware people! I'm posting a link to a very interesting article I read about Mass Effect 3's ending.

http://www.themetaga...ml#comment-form

I'm not giving anymore of my comments though, since I already posted earlier in this thread with some of my own feedback. This article is fantastic, however, so check it.

I second that opinion: he sums up my emotional experience completely.

[Jason O. Jensen]

Straight up: if the indoctrination theory is correct and you release the "real" ending in a month or so, you guys might just be geniuses.

[Darvins]

Hmm well okay most of mine focus on the ending because other than one or two small niggling matters (Such as the journal system) I loved ME 3.

Synthesis is done away with, it's really silly, and as mentioned a hundred tiems, counter to everything we see in ME 3 it also just dosn't make sense. The God-Child also needs a interupt of 'Your wrong, you idiot, look out there, look right now. See those ships those are Geth see that ship next to it, yes the one the Geth ship there just jumped in front of taking the shot that would have destroyed it, thats Quarian. They have peace the creators and the created fighting together, against your machines. My ships AI, tells me your creations are abhorent, because of what they are and what they represent, and what they do. Thats two AI forms of life, fighting for the Organics against your machines, risking themselves. So shut up, and accept that your problem, your problem was your own delusions and you've been exterminating races for millenia due to this. Your not a solution, those Reapers are not a solution... they are the Problem. You are the Problem.' Thats what it needs.

[MisterP146]

People clearly want answers Bioware. Please give us a proper epilogue that let's us know the fate of our companions and the universe at large based on our decisions.

Even if you decide to keep the endings intact without alteration people would appreciate an informative epilogue. I appreciate the fact you guys wanted people to talk about your ending with lots of speculation, but its clearly not what many of your fans wanted or were expecting. I think you should provide more variety such as a happy ending. I mean why not? People have gone through multiple play throughs of both games in order to ensure they got one at the end of 3. What happened to all of our wildly different endings that we were promised? And please try to address the plot holes. example: Why was joker booking it out of system? Why was I abandoned by my crew?, why is Shepard waking up in rubble when he was on the citadel? and The Starchild's clearly flawed logic in regards to synthetic life when you can in fact prove to him otherwise. Unfortuntly as it stands the ending does not make any sense.

Modifié par MisterP146, 19 mars 2012 - 06:40 .

[Lasergrid]

NekOoNinja wrote...

G3n0c1de wrote...

 Please DON'T go with the indoctrination theory.  It's just their way of somehow justifying everything that happened, when they should actually want a better ending.

I am a space battle porn lover.  The battle you had was pretty good, I have to say, but there could always be more of it.  Take a page out of Star War's book, and cut back to the space battle a couple of times, showing its progress.  Hackett has a larger role than ever before, so I'd like to see him not only directing his fleet, but also in combat.  The Normandy should also get in the fight, with the upgrades that you have.  And I want to see more damage done to the Reaper side, especially if you have a high EMS.

Also, those people who expressly said that they'd be helping you fight on Earth should make an appearance.  Like Kirrahe, Jondum Bau, and many others.

To my bigger point, EMS shouldn't just be a number.  I'd like to see how the different things you've acquired add to the battle on Earth and in space.  It's a fantastic way to reward the player.

Also, there needs to be an ending where the Reapers win.  You're fighting a war, and everything you do impacts the war in some way.  If you don't prepare enough, you should lose.  This is no different than doing the Suicide Mission in ME2 without upgrades for the Normandy or crew loyalty.

We'd also really like closure for the major characters.  Perhaps one final playable segment, where we can talk to them.  Or even a DA style epilogue would work.

Anyway, I've come up with my own version of the ending incorporating some of my suggestions.  If it's too much work to factor in your old acquaintences, I wrote this only taking EMS scores into account.  Be warned, this is extremely long.

If you have a low EMS:

First off, the space battle needs to be different.  You get fewer ships, and the tone is more desperate.  The Sword fleet is not effective at all, they really amount to only a distraction.  The Allied fleet is fighting, but it's immediately obvious that they can't win.

Most of Hammer group is shot down.  When Shepard reaches the ground, the Allied FOB is overrun with Reaper forces and you have to fight your way to Anderson in his command center.  The tone is very desperate.  Hammer doesn't have nearly enough men or firepower to mount an effective attack.  All they can do is one suicidal thrust. Hammer and the resistance try pushing to the Conduit but are repulsed by the Reaper ground forces.  The fight with the destroyer remains the same.

Cut back to the battle in space.  The Reapers break through Sword Fleets lines, throwing them into disarry.  Sword begins to be overwhelmed.  Admiral Hackett does his best to keep control, but even he knows that he doesn't have much time.  If the Destiny Ascension is present, it is destroyed.  Hackett's dreadnought takes damage but keeps fighting.

There isn't much left of Hammer group for the final push to the Conduit.  They charge, but are met by Harbinger.  Shepard takes a Reaper laser to the face.  This sequence plays out pretty much as it does in the game.

Badly injured, Shepard limps through the Citadel, eventually finding Anderson.  TIM shows up, but in this scene, he is dissappointed and angry with Shepard.  Shepard is forced to kill Anderson.  TIM knows how the battle is going, and knows that the Crucible won't reach the Citadel.  Shepard has failed.  TIM is conflicted as he actually finds some joy in that the Reapers will win, to which Shepard points out that he is indoctrinated.  TIM kills himself.  Shepard goes up to the console to open the Citadel's arms.  He can now see the battle outside, and tunes his radio in.

Sword fleet is mostly destroyed or routing.  Over the radio, Shepard hears Admiral Hackett give the order for Shield fleet and the Crucible to enter the system before his dreadnought explodes.  Shepard also hears chatter from the battle on the ground.

Cut to London.  The dead of Hammer group and the resistence litter the battlefield.  The survivors attempt to retreat, but find that in their push to the Conduit, the Reaper forces have encircled them.  It is chaos.  All of Shepard's squadmates and other characters are cut down, one by one.  Shepard attempts to tell them to get out of there, to no avail.  As the last radio falls silent, Harbinger comes on, and gloats.

The Crucible tries make one last run at the Citadel.  Shield fleet attempts to protect the Crucible, but they are destroyed in the effort.  The Crucible itself makes it far, thanks to the sacrifice of the Shield fleet ships.  Joker and the Normady attempt to help, doing major damage to a Reaper before being chased off.   The Crucible doesn't reach the Citadel.  As it gets close, Reaper lasers destroy it.  

All remaining Allied ships attempt to flee but are destroyed.  Like the ground forces, they are also encircled.  Joker attemps to break through to escape, but the Normady is cut apart by multiple Reaper ships.

Shepard can only watch as the wreckage of the Crucible drifts toward his location, and then impacts.

The epilogue is narrated by Harbinger, who talks about the continuation of the cycle.

So that's the downer ending.  Everyone dies.

For a medium EMS: 

The space battle is similar to that of the game, but we get to see more of it.  While still outmatched, Sword fleet has enough firepower to hold it's own against the Reapers.  Ships get destroyed on both sides.

The ground war is also similar to that of what happened in the game.  The FOB has a decent amount of Allied units.  The enemy is at the walls, but the base holds it's own.  The tone is tentatively hopeful.  Hammer is able to push to the Reaper destroyer, and your allies help you on the ground during the fight, making it easier.

Cutting back to space, Sword fleet is still holding it's own.  Both sides are losing ships. Hackett notes that they won't be able to keep up these losses forever.

Hammer attemps to push to the Conduit.  Harbinger and some other Reapers break off from the space battle to intercept.  Hackett orders his dreadnought and the Fifth Fleet to pursue them.  With some of Harbinger's allies taken out, Harbinger engages Hackett and his fleet.  Hackett's dreadnought is disabled, and many of the Fifth Fleet's ships are lost.

Instead of Harbinger, it is another Reaper destroyer that meets Hammer at the Conduit, and it begins to cut Hammer down.  Hammer fights back.  The Normandy makes a thanix and javelin run on the destroyer and takes it out.  Hammer reaches the Conduit.  Shepard is uninjured.  Anderson and Shepard agree that a small team should go through, while the rest of Hammer stays behind to make sure nothing follows the team through the Conduit.

Anderson, Shepard, and his squadmates enter the Citadel.  They make their way to the control room.  They reach the console and Anderson begins to open the Citadel arms.  He is then shot by TIM who appears out of nowhere.  TIM controls Shepard and his squadmates.  He is about to force Shepard to kill one of his squadmates, but Shepard overcomes this at the last second, shooting TIM in the head instead.  Something about Shepard being the only person to have the strength of will to resist the control of the Reapers.  This is what makes him able to break TIM's control.  One of your squadmates attends to Anderson.

Opening the arms, we can see the battle still raging in space.  Sword fleet has taken heavy losses, but has also weakened the Reapers as well.  The Reapers begin to press their attacks, gaining them the advantage.  Hackett orders the Crucible and Shield fleet into the system.  Shield fleet relieves Sword, and together they sucessfully push through to the Citadel with the Crucible.  It docks with the station.  The Reapers go after the Crucible in droves only to be repulsed.  The Reapers retreat.  

The fleet claims victory, but Reaper reinforcements appear in system.  They come from Palaven, Thessia, and all over the galaxy.  Hackett urges Shepard to get the Crucible working quickly.  It won't be long before they are able to destroy the Crucible.  Hackett orders the remaining ships to defend the Crucible at all costs.

Shepard then recieves word on what's happening on the ground.  His squadmates and the rest of Hammer are dug in around the Conduit., but are in heavy fighting and are taking casualties.  Again, Shepard must work quickly or else Hammer will be overrun and the Reaper forces will storm the Citadel.

Shepard begins the sequence for charging the Crucible.  Somehow, TIM gets up, and dusts himself off.  The hole in his head reveals only more synthetic structures.  Your squad opens fire, blowing away TIM's skin.  He is fully cybernetic.  Shepard is apalled.  He states that you've just done his work for him, and the Reapers will be under his control soon.  Harbinger interjects, and assumes direct control of TIM through his cybernetics.  TIM dies screaming.  The Crucible is finished charging, and you attempt to go for the console, but Harbinger blocks you.  You must now fight Harbinger.  Cue a boss fight similar to when we fought Saren.  During pauses in the action, there will be cuts to the space battle, ground battle, and dialogue with Harbinger.  

Harbinger confirms that the races of the galaxy are harvested in order to make more Reapers, making their side stronger.  They are destroyed before they can advance to a point where they could actually fight the Reapers.  **** the bull**** about synthetics versus organics.  Keep it simple.

Fighting on the ground is intense.  Shepard's squadmates and other important characters rally and weather the Reaper assault.

The battle in space is desperate.  The Allied fleet has been severely weakened by the initial assault on Earth, but Hackett rallies his forces to hold their lines.  Cut to shots of the Normandy engaging a Reaper and winning if it has the thanix cannon.  One Reaper breaks through the Allied lines and move toward the Citadel: Harbinger.  Hackett's dreadnought is the last ship in a position to protect the Crucible, and he positions himself directly in Harbinger's path.  Hackett's ship takes heavy damage.  He retaliates with a javelin strike to take down Harbinger's shields, and then follows up with his ship's main gun.  Harbinger is badly damaged but, keeps advancing.  Hackett's ship is out of javelins and then has it's main gun knocked out.  Hackett order's his ship to full thrust forward.  Harbinger tries firing on Hackett's ship, but is unable to destroy it.  The two impact.  Hackett's ship explodes.  It is his finest hour.

This sever's Harbinger's link with TIM's body, and allows Shepard to finsih it off.  Shepard walks over to the console, and a Prothean VI appears.  It informs Shepard about using the Crucible.  Shepard has questions and they are answered.  The Crucible can do one of two things.  It can either destroy all Reaper technology in the galaxy, or allow Shepard to control all Reaper technology in the galaxy.  Shepard's squadmates point out that the Mass Relays and the Citadel were also made by the Reapers, so if Shepard chose that option, for one thing they would all die, because the Citadel would be destroyed with them on it.  And that whole long list of things that would be bad when all the relays are destroyed.  Shepard considers the other option.  The Prothean VI informs Shepard that he would have to be infused with the Reapers in order to control them.  He'll die.  Controlling the Reapers is a huge unknown and a huge risk.  Would Shepard be the same person afterward?  What would he do with that power?  As Shepard contemplates, his squadmates notice something.

From the debris of Hackett's dreadnought, Harbinger emerges, badly damaged.  It's lasers no longer work, so it limps toward the Crucible.  He gets one last report from space and the ground.  The fleets are at the breaking point, with more Reapers slipping through their lines and advancing on the Citadel.  His friends on the ground are reduced to fighing in close quarters, and are close to being overrun.  Whatever decision Shepard makes, he is now has limited time.

You could decide to do nothing:  This choice has Shepard decide that no one should have the power to both destroy the galaxy as we know it, or to control the Reapers.  Both are not worth the cost.  Shepard destroys the console.  He hopes that the next cycle will be able to do what he couldn't.  He shares some words with Anderson.  Shepard spends his last moments with his squadmates, or his love interest if he brough them.  They watch as Harbinger descends on the Crucible.

The epilogue is largely the same as the downer ending.  The Reapers win.  Everyone is dead.  But at least Shepard wasn't constrained by a difficult choice.

If you choose to destroy the Reapers:  The Crucible powers up, and activates right as Harbinger gets to it.  Harbinger is blown away.  This sequence appears mostly identical to what happened in the game.  The surviving Allied fleet ships stop and watch.  Some Reapers try to run, but they can't escape.  The wave of energy hits Earth and spreads all over the world.  All Reaper forces are disintigrated.  The Conduit collapses.  Your friends on the ground emerge from the rubble.  The Citadel then aims at the Charon Mass Relay.  It fires once more, pumping the relay full of it's energy, and the relay fires toward it's sister relay.  The relays themselves are destroyed, but all their energy is released as Reaper killing energy.  Cut to Palaven, Thessia, and other worlds as it shows the Reapers being destroyed.

Shepard observes these results on the console.  The Citadel is rocked by explosions.  I've thought of some 'sub endings' for this part:

The first one is that you and your squadmates die.  It's a scene somewhat similar to choosing not to do anything at all.  You share some words with Anderson, and then you spend your final moments with your squadmates.  Shepard takes solace in the fact that the Reapers will no longer be a threat.  He's concerned about what will happen to the Galaxy, but hopes that they'll be able to figure the future out themselves.

I'm not sure how it could be implemented, but the other scene has Joker going on one last extraction run.  I don't know what you'd have to do to get this ending over the other one, but  somehow, Joker is able to get to you and your Squadmates and pull you guys out at the last second.  This is the semi good end.

Both epilogues will be narrated by Shepard.  The galaxy has survived, but at an extremely high cost.  Without the relays, everyone is now cut off, and isolated.  The Alliance got busy disposing of the Reaper corpses by launching them into Sol.  Cleanup and rebuilding began around the world.  Due to the destruction of the relays, Earth had to become self sustainable.  Thanks to ingenuity and technology, this was achieved after some time.

The alien forces considered attempting to return to their worlds, but all knew that the distances were too vast to be overcome, even through FTL travel.  Earth was no longer the home of just humans.

The krogan were granted land. While the clans were united during the war, eventually internal conflicts broke out.  Such is the krogan way.  They eventually scattered, living out their long lives alone, all over the planet.  They became more rare as time went on, eventually becoming the stuff of legends.  Due to their long life spans, it was a while before they died out.

The salarians, knowing they wouldn't be around for much longer, did what they could to help the humans with what time they had left.

The turians had few women on their ships, barely enough for a viable gene pool.  They integrated with humans in a few of their cities.  They could either struggle to keep their numbers up, die out, or they eventually make it.

The quarians did okay for themselves.  If you had the geth help them too, the quarians would be able to adjust to Earth and live there in their own enclaves.  If the geth were not present, the quarians would live on their warships.  With a good mix of males and females, the Quarians were able to maintain a steady population.  The greater concern was food.  They worked with the Turians to synthesize dextro amino acid food.

It's the asari who were able to thrive.  Thanks to being mono gendered, it didn't take many of them to grow into a sizable population after a few generations.  They also integrated with the humans.

The geth helped immensely in the rebuilding.  If they were there with the quarians, then they integrated back with quarian society.  If not, then they kept to themselves in space.  Eventually, some geth left in order to explore and seek out the rest of the collective.  Aging wasn't a concern, so decades of FTL travel seemed feasible.

Other places in the galaxy were able to rebuild as well.  Some were not so fortunate.  Many colonies and space stations starved, or ran out of energy.  Element zero became exceptionally rare and valuable, because almost no one had access to raw eezo.

As soon as they were able, Earth's top scientists began studying how to replicate the mass relays.  Without the resources and scientists of the rest of the galaxy, progress was slow.  It would not be for hundreds of years more that anyone would come close to solving this problem.

Insert individual epilogues of Shepard, his love interest, and his squadmates of the things they do on Earth if they are alive.  If Anderson is alive, then he becomes head of the Alliance.  A final scene should focus on the memorial for all who lost their lives in the Reaper war, and for Shepard if applicable.  Any living squad members and important characters should be present.

If you choose to control the Reapers:  Shepard makes his decision, and his squadmates are distraught.  Especially his love interest.  He shares words with Anderson and his squad, and then steps up to the console.  Shepard is elevated to a thing basically like what we have in the game to control the Reapers.  He uses it and dies.  Harbinger is about to reach the Crucible, but the Crucible powers up, and releases a pulse.  Harbinger goes dark.  And then it's eyes and other light colors change to blue.  It stops, and turns to face the other Reapers.  One by one, they also change their colors.  The Allied fleet ceases fire.   The ones on Earth do the same.  The ground forces attacking your friends suddenly fall over dead.  The Reapers on the planet take off and leave.  This sequence is more or less the same as the one in the game, but without the destruction of the mass relays.  Instead of an explosion, the relays recieve the signal, and then emit a pulse.  Eventually this turns every Reaper in the galaxy.  Cut to scenes of Thessia and Palaven.  Every Reaper ship then makes its way to Earth, and they gather around the Citadel.  Your squad and the Allied fleet are wary, but the Citadel begins to glow with dark energy.  And the Reapers use the Citadel as a mass relay, and use it to leave.

No one knows where they went.  As the various fleets move through the relay network to survey the damage from the war, they find no trace of the Reapers.  It becomes apparent that they have left the galaxy.  People speculate as to the reason.  Perhaps Shepard had the Reapers banish themselves, or remove themselves from the galaxy to stop hurting it.  Maybe there is an unknown threat outside the galaxy and Shepard had the Reapers leave to fight it.  They could have gone to a different galaxy.  Will they return?  No one knows except Shepard, and he is dead.

Rebuilding the galaxy was difficult, but not impossible.  Thanks to the Reapers, the galaxy was united as never before.  The Citadel was eventually moved back to it's old position in the Widow system.  It returned to being the center of galactic politics.

With the heavy losses incurred by the Allied fleet, there was a definite power vacuum for a while.  If Shepard didn't do enough to unite the galaxy, smaller wars for power would break out.

Due to it's part in the war, and thanks to Commander Shepard, humanity finally earned the respect and trust of the whole galaxy.

Relations with the krogan would depend on whether or not the genophage was actually cured.  If so, then the Krogan expanded rapidly.  Eventually, overpopulation occurred, but they had learned the lessons of the Krogan rebellions.  The Krogans expanded into unknown space, exploring, and developing many colonies.  They also limited their breeding.

If the genophage was not cured, then it eventually became apparent that the krogan had been used.  They went on a bloody rampage that set fire to many worlds, and even the Citadel.  The Krogan would be wiped out.

If the geth were able to work with the quarians, then they both settled on Rannoch.  The quarians adapted quickly to the environment and thrived.  And by working with the geth, their society grew rapidly.  For their part in the battle for Earth, the quarians rejoined the Citadel, and were given an embassy.

If the quarians won their war with the geth, it's largely the same outcome, just that they wouldn't have expanded or adapted nearly as fast.

If the geth won, then they would eventually complete their dyson sphere and achieve unity.

Other than that, things should go back to normal with the mass relays still working.  Again, the final scene should bring together the characters who are still living and have them at Shepard's memorial, either on the Citadel or Earth.

These two are bittersweet endings.  And these ones actually make sense.

If you have a high EMS:

The space battle will go very well for the Sword fleet.  You'd be bringing in an overwhelming amount of ships.  Morale is high.  I want to see every dreadnought that the Allies have.  I want to see javelin missle swarms taking down Reaper shields.  I want to see thanix cannons.  The Reapers simply aren't prepared to do battle with this many ships.  The initial assault is a success.  The Reapers get hit hard, and while they still have alot of firepower, the Allied fleet is able to deal them heavy losses.  Hackett's dreadnought and the Normandy both get kills.

As a consequence, almost all of Hammer group makes it to the ground.  Hammer group is also larger this time.  They gain several footholds in London and begin taking the city back.  The FOB you go to is flowing with troops.  More are arriving by the second, and are advancing from the perimeter.  There is heavy fighting during the push to the Conduit, but Hammer group is cutting deep into the enemy.  They have enough forces to secure their flanks as well.  The Reaper ground forces are actually driven back to the destroyer.  There is no fight with the destroyer as it gets overwhelmed by Hammer group.

Back in space, the Reapers have regrouped, and reengage the Allied fleet.  Maintaining some control of the area, Hackett orders in Shield fleet and the Crucible, instructing them to set up near the Citadel.  They are waiting for Hammer to open the Citadel.  The Reapers realize what's happening, and try to intercept the Crucible, but Sword and Shield fleets repulse their attack.  They are also become aware of the situation in London.  Harbinger and a few other Reapers break off from their main group to go after the Conduit.  Hackett sees this, and orders the Alliance fleets to intercept them.  The Reapers take withering fire from the Alliance ships, many being destroyed.  Harbinger attempts to engage Hackett's dreadnought, but he has support and Harbinger is driven off.  Some reapers make it to the Conduit, but they are destroyed by Hammer and by the Alliance ships in orbit.  Harbinger and the reamaining Reaper forces withdraw, going to FTL and escaping through the Relay.  The Allied fleets celebrate.  Hackett reminds them to stay on their guard, the Crucible will be what ends the war.

News spreads of the battle to those on the ground.  Hammer is advancing past the Conduit, pushing the Reaper forces out of the area.  Shepard and Anderson decide to lead a strike team through the Conduit and onto the Citadel.  Several of Hammer's squads go through the Conduit and then Shepard steps through.  He is greeted by a firefight.  Every Cerberus soldier who didn't die on their base was called to the Citadel by the Illusive man.  The strike teams are heavily engaged.  Anderson and Shepard are separated, with Shepard and his squad fighting through to the command console.  They reach it, expecting to find the Illusive man there.  But there is no one.  So Shepard opens the Citadel's arms.  He radios Hackett and tells him that they are ready for the Crucible.

Just then, several Phantoms decloak with their blades aready in front on Shepard and your squad's throats.  You and your squad drop your weapons.  TIM emerges, applauding.  You did what he needed, and now he will get the Crucible.  Shepard tries to communicate with Hackett or anyone else, but TIM is jamming their comms.  You talk back and forth.  You can weaken his resolve, but eventually the Phantom guarding you gets shot in the head, Anderson steps out.  He throws a flashbang grenade into your group.  Shepard rolls out of the way and TIM escapes the blast, but it stuns your squadmates and the Phantoms guarding them.  Boss fight.  The Phantoms go after you while TIM fights Anderson.

All the while in space, the remaining Reapers, pulled off of Palaven, Thessia, and countless other worlds arrive with Harbinger.  They pour through the relay.  Hackett orders the Allied fleet to engage.  He tries telling Shepard to activate the Crucible, but Shepard can only hear Hackett, not respond.

After killing the Phantoms, Shepard tries to help Anderson.  TIM reveals that he's had upgrades done, and overpowers Anderson, shooting him in the gut.  He's about to finish him, but Shepard tackles him.  TIM throws him off.  Boss fight.  Shepard disables TIM.  He's in pain, but thanks to his implants, he can't die.  Your squad comes to, and one of them helps out Anderson.

Meanwhile, the space battle rages outside.  The Allied fleet is holding its own, but they are taking losses in the center.  The Reapers are attempting to break through to the Citadel, but are taking heavy losses.  Harbinger and a few other large Reapers emerge and advance.

Shepard gets to the console and brings up the Prothan VI.  He is informed of his options.  Like the medium EMS version, both are apalling.  As Shepard weighs his options TIM begins to glow and surge with energy.  Harbinger is trying to assume direct control.  TIM cries out for help.  Shepard can talk to him.  Blah blah blah fight the indoctrination.  If you've got a high enough paragon or renegade score, you can talk down TIM who asks you to put him down.  If you don't, Harbinger assumes control of TIM and you have to go through the boss fight from the meduim EMS ending.  But this time it will be harder.

After defeating Harbinger/TIM, you again step up to the console.  Harbinger sees how close you are to winning and charges the Allied fleet.  It and other heavy Reapers break through.  Hackett does his best to engage Harbinger.  Again, you only have so much time before Harbinger destroys the Crucible.  But you have another option.  Again, you can choose to not do anything, but instead of resigning yourself to death, you inspire the fleets.

The choices from before are laregely unchanged:  If you control or destroy the Reapers, the same basic things happen.  In the epilogue, the size of the surviving fleet is much larger.

But when you refuse to take either choice:  Shepard opens the console radio.  Thanks to the Citadel, it is broadcast to all Allied ships and ground forces around the world.  Shepard goes into the inspirational speech to end all inspirational speeches.  He inspires and rallies the fleet.  In turn, they destroy Harbinger.  With their leader dead, the Reaper forces are left in disarray.  In their push to the Citadel, they left themselves open to encirclement, and are now surrounded.  The fleet destroys every Reaper present.  On the ground, the resistence movement ignites all over the world.  Hammer group is inspired to push the Reaper forces out of London.  Victory.

Again the epilogue is narrated by Shepard.  After the battle, the fleets went about liberating planets from Reaper forces.  Shepard hunted down every last Reaper.  Whenever a new one showed up it was met with overwhelming force.  After a few years, the war was declared over.

The rest of the epilogue occurs like the epilogue for controlling the Reapers.  Things go back to normal.  The galaxy enters a new era of peace and prosperity.  For the first time ever the entire galaxy is united.

The final scene should actually be playable.  Shepard talks to all the important characters at a war memorial ceremony.  Good times.

So yeah, this is the golden ending. 

Everything he said, and this is the direction I expected the game to end. It has vastly different outcomes, tied to EMS: sad, bittersweet, happy.
I especially like the tension of pointing the gun at a squadmate (LI), makes more sense than Anderson. Did not care much about Andersion, so I would be on the edge of my seat on this one - every time. Just like the suicide mission, just because you played it once, it doesn't make it less intense. I think Neverwinter Nights 2 pulled something like this off in the finale, only with team members turning on the player if their loyalty was too low. Same result. Pointing the weapon at someone you actually care about.

His suggestion even has bossfights - not just Marauder Shields. I like the confrontations with Harbinger and TIM.

Having the squadmates with shepard gives a sense of unity, the theme Mass Effect has been going with all along. Going down anyway with them nearby, in low and mid EMS endings, is much more bearable and bittersweet than dying alone. Seriously. That's what bugs be about the ending we have now, Shep dies alone, confused, and even if he or she survives, friends and loved one are far away. I can see shepard voluntarily commiting suicide after hearing about this. How was this supposed to be uplifting?

Also, space battles. Who doesn't love space battles? And like this person said, missed opportunity: Neverwinter Nights 2 also allowed to build up forces and place them wherever the "Knight-Captain" wanted them to be. I was expecting this to happen with the ground support team. It didn't.

The ending described here has truly an epic vibe, worthy of three playthroughs or more. What we have currently is acceptable for a mediocre movie, but not an epic game trilogy. Game -/- Movie.

Also: Shepard's squadmates represent the different races. Tali makes me care about the quarians, Liara about the Asari, Wrex about the Krogans and Garrus about the turians. They represent what Shepard should care about, not just some faceless statistics. This is a reason why the current end sequence is insulting: Only human soldiers are seen cheering. Were the other races used as cannon fodder for Earth, so earth can now rule supreme? This is not just about earth. This is about the Galaxy as a whole, their inhabitants. Not just humans alone.

What these guys said This should be the ending. Period.

[meonlyred]

Posted this in the Femshep thread and friends suggested I repost it in here as well:

I can't stand a lot of things about the ending and the Starchild's logic isn't what is on the top of my list. Though why the god figure that controls the Reapers would give this random human the choice to undo what he has administered for eons seems far fetched. But okay I'll go with it. His circuital logic about making synthetics to kill organics to keep synthetics from wiping out all life instead of half of it, can make sense in a way. I'm sure the race that the Starchild belong to thought it was their best option, but it is arrogant for them in their time to believe every single cycle after them would end the same way. If synthetics completely destroy all life, from the advance to the birds and the bees then they are right. But they set this plan in motion before they had the insight of eons.

The Geth have already proved to be the contrary. When the Quarians left Rannoch, the Geth did not turn it into a machine paradise, destroying all life on the planet. Hell they didn't even live on Rannoch, Legion tells you this much in ME2. He tells Shepard that the Geth have been acting as groundskeepers for Rannoch, making sure it flourished. For the Starchild's people to start this cycle robs all races that come after them the freedom to try and fail on their own is unfair.

Here is an anology, I'm eating steak with a steak knife and someone takes that steak knife away from me because I might cut myself. Sure, its very possible that I might, especially if I'm being risky with it. Something with AI, if organic are risky with AI, than yes there is a very good chance that they will destroy all life. But that is exactly one of the themes of the ME series. AI have always been a problem in the storyline and Shepard is there to guide organics and AI to either war against each other or to make peace.

On Rannoch when Shepard talks the Quarians down from attacking the Geth when Legion was uploading the Reaper code, I felt proud. I felt like I had done something good. I felt like what Shepard had been doing, the actions she had been taking mattered. I could feel the weight of excellant story telling. However, the ending completely undoes that. It striped down that beautiful moment into a War Asset number that doesn't matter in the end. I could have easy said **** it, killed the Geth or the Quarians and played a couple hours of MP to get my numbers back up. When story elements mean nothing in the end I call BS. Shepard can't point to the Geth fighting along side the people they have been at war with for 300 years and say "Look! We are working together. We are not making the same mistake your people did." Yes, in the years to come there will probably be another war with synthetics as there will be war with organics vs organics. Conflict is natural, it will happen over and over again, you don't need synthetics for that to happen. But killing everyone because you don't think they will be able to get along is wrong.

However, I can actually let that all slide. I can accept the Starchild's logic. My problems begins with Shepard's lack of strength at that point. What happened to Commander Shepard? She completely accepts Starchild's arguement, right or wrong. At any other point in any of the games Shepard can disagree/agree or follow/rebel with pretty much everyone. Sometimes Shepard's logic doesn't make sense but that is the point. You can kill the rachni, you can save the rachni, you can rewrite the Geth, you can distroy the Geth. Right or wrong, sense or none, good or ill Shepard has choice. You can choice to make the wrong decision based on role playing of your Shepard.

Let's say for a moment that the Starchild is completely right and these choices are the only options you have to stop the Reapers. Say everything is at face value and that there are no hidden meanings or manipulations going on at this point. Why can't Shepard be wrong and say "To hell with you, you control the Reapers, you can turn them off. Do it." What happened to the Silver Tongue Siren that can charm Krogan, persuade truians, and captivate her people? What happened to the woman who talked Saren into shoting himself so that she could stop Sovereign. She apparently died sitting there next to Anderson because the woman who went up in that beam of light isn't Commander Goddamn Shepard, the woman who head butts krogan, punches Yahgs in the face, and controls armies with her word. She is replaces by someone who nods her head, says okay, and meanders toward horrible, depressing ending A, B, or C.

Putting that aside too, even if you 'save' Earth with the best possible ending with max War Assest, Earth is still boned. This takes place a little less than 200 years from now. Right now we are trying to find alternatives for fuels and other resources. Thane talks about his planet and that thankfully us humans were able to get off our planet before it became a major problem. Now we are struck back on Earth with a little less than twice the population we have now even if the Reapers kill a billion people. Add if you cured the Genophage then Earth faces over population of krogan. Add Rachni in there too if you saved them. The Truians and Quarian might not starve if the Quarians brought their Liveships with them. But how many of them were destroyed in the fight?

This is also assuming that when the Charon relay that orbits pluto doesn't destroy the Sol system even thought the lore clearly states over and over again that it should.

But what the icling on the cake is the crew, why in god's name would I want that fate for them?! Here is the thing, assuming that they are forever trapped on that planet. They might survive three, maybe four generations but they will all die out eventually. To maintain a poplulation you have to have 10,000 people at least. This takening in deaths before procreation. The Normandy who's only crew is those who just happen to be aboard at the time the Reapers attacked Earth is maybe 20.

You can look at the success and failure of the orginial American colonies to jugde where this is going. And those people arrive at least semi prepared. The Normandy crew has no supplies other than war time equipment. Those on board are soldier and scientist at best. If I can go ask some random person on the street where eggs come from and they tell me 'the grocery store,' I have little hope for them. This not mentioning the crew who have medicial problems Joker for one has Vrolik syndrome and even if you pick the Synthesis ending you still see Joker limping as he get out of the Normandy. Without the advanced medicial attention of their time he will die. Kaidan will also be in poor health due to his L2 implants with out the aid of pain medication. (If he is alive in your game, of course) This is all counting that no one died in the crash landing. And assuming that everyone magicially made it back to the Normandy when they all turned coward and abandon Shepard in her moment of need.

Aside from the plot holes that make swiss cheese look solid this ending is so bleak and dark. The implications of what happens to the characters we have loved since ME1 is heartbreaking. I rather have the scene to have went black and Shepard waking up on the Normandy after Eden Prime implying that the events of ME1, 2, and 3 were all dreams.

[Nauks]

I support the indoctrination ending, granted it's done right.
But I must add one thing.

*Dark Energy: one of the more beautiful ideas throughout ME1 and ME2 was the Dark Energy effects lingering, hinting and building up toward something to be revealed in ME3, which we never got.

Even if the original ending was scrapped, opting instead for the less original AI related plot, we need at least some closure regarding Dark Energy, make it a bi-product of the reason for Reaping or w/e, don't just let it go unsaid.

[rapscallioness]

I guess I'm jumping back in here real quick:

1) Cut out Old God Baby scene; Destruction of relays...and preferably the whole Reapers dragging the Citadel to earth bit. The Citadel would have been just fine where it was. It did not need to be the antennae, or whatever.

2) You could have easily picked up on the idea of making the Reapers vulnerable b4 physically taking them down. It was alluded to w/Saren in ME1.

3) Dark Energy theme--it was so interesting. What happened? I could see the dark energy---being some type of cosmic, organic, physical reaction to the presence of the Reapers. Or the Reapers' signal. Like the dark energy is almost an allergic reaction. Or, like an immune system reaction to the Reapers getting closer. The galaxy as a living organism reacting to the growing "infection" that is the Reapers.

4)The Crucible is simply needed to harness that dark energy, and focus it on the Reapers. Crippling the Reapers, but still epic battle must be fought w/Allies and Assets to finally bring them down. (wow moment cut scenes to be had by all).

5)If Shep must die--Shep dies at that console w/Anderson. Instead of hearing Hackett saying it doesn't work, we hear bits of cheering. (After aforesaid wow moment, cut scenes of Allies and Assets kicking butt!) Maybe Joker, or Hackett for that matter, saying they did it...blah,blah. Then they're calling out, "Commander? Commander?---Shepard?!?" But we see Shepard slumped over in front of the console. Next to Anderson.

And it's over.

You know, I was ready for it to be over at that console. Shep said "we did it". I fully expected Shep to die there, yet I was at peace with it. Supremely at peace with it. It felt right.

Then I hear those most reviled words from Hackett, "Nothing's happening.." What? Dammit. That's when everything went to the fifth circle of Dante's Inferno.

Modifié par rapscallioness, 19 mars 2012 - 06:54 .

[spacefiddle]

Jessica and Rahen, you are some of the bravest people I've ever met.

Having kept away from a computer all weekend and let things settle in my brain, I'm a little surprised that I feel just as strongly about the whole thing, coming back here and taking a look.  To steal a line from Michner "in three pages I can't even say Good Morning," but I'll try to keep this streamlined.

Some points have to make assumptions about the meaning of the ending, so may be way off, BUT, since that's how it appeared to me, I assume you may want to hear how it was perceived anyway.

1. Metagaming issues

This is the biggest standout to me, with Godboi and the ending.  I think what was attempted was really clever and *almost* pulled off - frustratingly close.  What went wrong is you blended the Character Voice with the Narrator Voice.  If Godboi the character is not to be trusted, he should not be giving base control / convo wheel / button-pressing Narrator Voice info.  "The narrator did it" is not a good ending to a mystery .

Further, if Godboi is lying about anything, why wouldn't he lie about everything?  The true info - basic functions of the buttons - are Narrator truth.  But maybe the destruction of the Geth is Character lies.  It gets too tangled to function well, and more time on this section, or another source of Narrator info, was needed (e.g. examining the controls as Shepard, and deducing their basic function, BEFORE Godboi's convo... that would solve most of that).

If you tried to do what I think you did, the coloring of Paragon-Blue and Renegade-Red on those controls was kind of neat.  But if you can't deduce from ingame info that Godboi may be a liar, then your only good choice is genocide: murder the Geth and EDI and agree, essentially, that Godboi is right about coexisting with synthetics - even though you probably proved him wrong in the game.

"Problematic."

2. Packaging versus content

You already know all this, so I'll reference it without bludgeoning the expired equine.  All the hype, marketing, press releases, statements about the game - we didn't really see this reflected in the end.  I'm less worried about the War Assets being more visible.  While awesome, production limits are understandable here, would have really been a lot more to add to the game, which already has *greatly* expanded systems.  But the negation of choice and lack of resolution and an apparent ABC ending, contrasted with statements that promised the opposite, was jarring.  The behind the scenes app and talk of "ambiguous endings" was just gas on the fire at that point.

3. Potential of a "real" ending planned later

Ties in to the above.  Above and beyond the creative choices, the business-end handling misread your players.  As companies push more and more micro and DLC, this was too far, too soon.  IF we'd had the conclusions and choices we were promised, I think that BUY DLC panel at the end would've been an eye-roller, but not unexpected.

As it is, it generated additional negative reaction, since it seems doubly pointless, especially for any DLC that takes place before the ending.

I still think you could have pulled it off, if you'd been open about the end coming in stages.  Hell, you could have even marketed it as too epic for one game and needing to split the content up.  If we knew that we'd be making bigger choices near the end that would be reflected later in expanded content that takes place AFTER those choices, we'd probably not all be here now.

4.  Fans versus Customers

This is a major crossroads for the industry.  Forbes has been looking at this angle from the start, as have a multitude of other industry analysts and commentators.  It's important, and for you guys as well as us.

So much negative backlash - aside from being from questionable sources, such as IGN who had personnel *in the game* and should absolutely recuse themselves from being an impartial voice here - there's this weird idea about what "fans" are "entitled" to.  it's a ridiculous concept.

In any industry, you create a product and sell it to customers.  If the customers don't like it, do you tell them to shut up and buy it anyway?  Marketing is a soft way of doing this - but when you get down to it, an industry adapts to customer demands, or they lose those customers to a competitor who does.  Consumer confidence in a brand.  Trust in future promises.  You need to stop thinking of gamers as "fans," and realize they are customers.  There's no different dynamic here than any other industry, and if the marketing doesn't match the product, the customers get annoyed.

It's not so much the artistic choices of the ending(s) as the way it was all presented to us.  There's no way to get around that, it needs to be addressed.  If we'd known what the datapad app says about the ending right from the start - maybe we'd be disagreeing, but we wouldn't feel like a bunch of customers who were lied to.

4a. And on that note, returnability.

With most other products, you don't like it?  You're dissatisfied? You return it.  You can't do this with software.  You buy it - or preorder it - on faith, entirely due to your level of trust in past products and company reputation, and you know it's for keeps.  The software market has been largely immune to a major factor in consumer goods, and that's returns.

But the increased emphasis on the huge and growing console market has altered this a little, and it may continue to tip this way in the future:  console games can be resold.  If not the same as a return, they can be traded in, and another customer will buy it used as a discount, and instead of two sales you have one.  And both buyers may be dissatisfied, and choose not to purchase again.  The industry is no longer immune to the return factor, and never will be again.  That makes looking at gamers as customers even more important than ever, for the health of the industry.

---

You *did* pull off something amazing with 99.9% of this game, and that should not be lost in the static.  I think you nearly pulled off something innovative and breathtaking in the last .1 there, but it wasn't handled right.  You tried to be a little to clever, a little too coy, and a little too secretive.  

To tie in all the above, think of it this way: when you go and purchase a product, and it's not complete or as advertised, and you want that addressed, would you accept a few winks and "oh just you wait and see!" as an answer?  That's what you give to fans of passive media - not what you give to customers of an interactive product.  And I think the disconnect in not quite realizing this is *all* that went wrong here.  I don't think you were really ready to leave the ending as-is.  I think, for whatever reason - out of time, out of budget, dramatic tension, reaction to the leaks - you wanted there to be more, and came up with all this as a way of delivering it in pieces.  But you didn't warn us.  

You spring surprises on fans; you communicate with customers.

---

For all this, you ARE communicating now - or starting to.  I am still assuming in all the above that "there, we're done, just like we meant to all along" was not the intent of the current ending.  If it is, a lot of this goes out the window (and I'd really have no idea WHAT to think, if that's the case).  But I think I'm not far off the mark.  And I think BWEA can come out of this with a satisfactory resolution to all, and reexamine this business model as the industry leaders they are.

Thanks for reading this dissertation. :innocent: