7052 réponses à ce sujet

[Cold42]

I think you know of the many issues fans have with the endings. If you can some how explain/wrap up all the problems brought up in:


and



Then I think you will have a truly happy fan response. Just please fact check any additional story writing against already established lore. Please don't create any new technology or retcon some fact (such as turians and quarians suddenly able to eat the food of levo-protien races) just because it makes the plot convenient.

Create an in game visual model of Tali's face. You had plenty of opportunity to show it, so actually show it. That generic stock pic from Google images that you photoshoped is really bad. It screams laziness or that you just didn't care. That stock picture is incredibly easy to find with a simple search, even before you created the game. Come up with something new...

That holo call at the end to say your goodbyes was a really easy cop out of doing some quality work and writing.More in depth closure with the past squad mates we were denied playing with. I, personally, wanted more interaction with Grunt and Miranda (my LI). In fact aside from Mordin, I really felt I didnt get to interact with the ME2 squad nearly enough. Thane I got to have one simple convo with before I was out of interaction options until he died. That seems kind of cheap. Legion I see for one mission before he dies. It just didn't seem to do any of them real justice. Don't get me wrong I still felt it when one of them passed on and got excited to see each return. However it never felt like enough. Those people were part of your journey just as much as the ME3 squad.

Let those of us who took the time to have a "Good" ending get a Good Ending option. Doesnt have to be THE ending, just let it be one of the ones we can unlock. Have 9+ qualitity endings that cover the full spectrum: Reapers win - Shep saves the day with everyone surviving and happy. Come up with variations in between.

Modifié par Cold42, 27 mars 2012 - 01:53 .

[Minimooo]

I'm sure this has been said a thousand times before, but this is just my tuppence.. I'd like the option to have some kind of 'happiness' and closure to the ending in regards to the LI, should the player have had their Shep 'live' (assuming that the Breathe scene is indeed Shepard surviving). Don't get me wrong, I love the idea of a bittersweet ending (I am yet to finish the game for myself, but know enough about the end to comment), but I would like for the option of some kind of future for Shep with their chosen LI.

[aceofheartless]

I'm probably late to the party since I just finished ME3 for the first time last night. I kind of liked the ending as it was, though it was frusturatingly cryptic as to the consequences fo the final choice. I mean, there's no indication weather or not the Normandy crew could be rescued or what happened to the Galaxy, but if that's by design it's not too bad.

However, I did come to a realization this morning that I think is important: I think there needs to be a viable ending in which Shepard lives. Not becuase I demand a happy ending and a "feel good" story, as nice as those are. A heavier ending suits Mass Effect, and I don't want to cheapen the narritvie in any way. No, I think the real need is more tied to gameplay.

Ever since I first played Mass Effect 1, I got the impression that this was a game (and later, a series) intended to be played multiple times. Everything from the different character classes to the branching skill trees, the new game+, and yes, the choices system made me feel like it was an instant classic, a game I would keep for years and play over and over, just to see what happens if I do something different. 

However, if Shepard's death is totally inevitable, suddenly subsequent playthroughs feel... different. Every time you make a long-term decision, give somebody a pep talk, or even buy a pet fish, you're thinking about Shepard's eventual end. This is especially apparent with the love interests, since knowing you're going to die makes you feel like a heel if you commit to anything. This is unique from a film or a novel where you can think "the character didn't know"... becuase in Mass Effect, you're making the decisions, and so you have to be in the narrative as well.

However, if there's a chance that you might live on to be happy and together, you'll once again be in line with the emotional narritive of the series. You'll be facing an dangerous and uncertain future, doing the best you can at the time, and full of hope aand determination. It doesn't have to be easy. In fact, it's probbaly better if it isn't, since the odds are so high. In fact, it could even be pseudorandom, where even if you assemble everything perfectly you still have a chance of loss. It could come at a price, or maybe there's no one ending in which everything turns out ok as long as any particular thing might. In fact, it could even be presented as a temptation Shepard could succumb to, a choice that technically wins and lets him/her live, but at a price. It could, perhaps, even be accomplished with Shepard's death if you were to enhance the emotional feedback about the positive (or negative) changes you've made to the world with your final actions, specifically the personal ones. 

So I suggest you make a "happy" ending, make it complex and meaningful, and make it damn hard to get, since if it's too easy everybody will take it. Just so that the hope that underpins Mass Effect doesn't start to feel false. 
 [I played an almost exclusively paragon Shepard, if that helps 
reveal some of my biases]


...Wow, I really didn't set out to write an essay, but I guess I did. I'll leave it up there in the name of constructive feedback, I suppose. Sorry for running on so much.


tl;dr? If Shepard's death is inevitable, playing through the game again might feel less genuine, especially with respect to love interests and long-term decisions.

[Sireniankyle1]

Kittenpirate wrote...

I want my blue babies.

That is all.

I'm with you on that. All I ever needed, though, was closure.

[RedNanaki]

Would just like to point out that Sovereign and the Catalyst contradict each other a couple of times...

////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

Sovereign:
- My kind transcends your very understanding. We are each a nation, independent, free of all weakness. You cannot even grasp the nature of our existence.

Catalyst:
- I control the Reapers. They are my solution [to chaos].
- Without us to stop it synthetics would destroy all organics. We've created the cycle so that never happens. That's the solution.

////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

Sovereign:
- Organic life is nothing but a genetic mutation. An Accident.
- Your extinction is inevitable. We are the end of everything.
- You cannot escape your doom.
- Your words are as empty as your future. I am the vanguard of your destruction.

Catalyst:
- We helped them ascend so they could make way for new life, storing the old life in Reaper form.

////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

Either there's something wrong her or Sovereign is a sadist who enjoys seeing humans on their knees...

Modifié par RedNanaki, 27 mars 2012 - 02:27 .

[movieguyabw]

I originally intended to make a post about this on this thread, but due to the endings, it's somewhat slipped my mind until now.

The font is incredibly small on my screen, and in the case of Weapon Mods and Codex entries, it's almost unreadable. I have a fairly old television, and just eyeballing it, the screen's probably 14" by 18". I remember ME2 was designed specifically for larger televisions, and while I had a similar issue back then, I believe there's a lot more that I'm not able to read in this game.

It'd be really cool if we could adjust font size in the graphics menu.

Also, if I go into the graphics configuration, I'm unable to set the light/dark ratio correctly. I'm told that I need both the "N" and the "7" to be visible, but no matter where I set the bar, only one of them is.

It doesn't seem to detract from the game. I can still see everything and all, but I'm just bringing it to attention, that the light settings might not be optimal on all TV's. Would it be possible to increase/decrease lighting more?

[masseffect217]

I've been pondering the ending for a few days now, and if I had to sum up in one word my feelings about the ending it wouldn't be anger or rage. It would be dissappointment.

I believe that the only 'way out' for Bioware regarding the uproar about the endings is to follow the (maybe fan-made, maybe truth) indoctrination theory. The community doesn't care if it takes months to get this DLC, as long as Bioware addresses that the last sequence (from getting hit with Harbinger's laser) was reaper indoctrination. This is the only way I see to regain the vast majority of previous fans.

I do not see the release of DLC continuing on from the current theory will please most outraged fans, as that's just adding insult to injury. And I, for one, will not buy it.

I would be elated if Bioware said something along the lines of, "Yes. We realize the ending of Mass Effect 3 was not what a lot of you wanted. But we've been listening to the community and are working on DLC that build on the indoctrination theory. In said DLC, Shepard will reawaken in London and rejoin the final fight with all of his/her collected war assets against the reapers."

And we don't care if Bioware didn't plan the indoctrination theory. It would be a true showing of their committment to fans if they took a user created theory that JUST MAKES SENSE.

Thanks for reading. I still have hope that this situation can be salvaged.

Last message: Do not release DLC that continues from the current ending! We're not interested!

[TheBishop_82]

 I posted this elsewhere, and it was suggested that I post it where it may be seen... So here it is, with some add-ons.
A better bittersweet ending that doesn't involve the destruction of everything? Have Shepard question the kid, come to the realization that the citadel/starchild is the heart of the reapers. He then proceeds to tell the kid to 'stuff it', and calls for the fleets to target the crucible to destroy the citadel while he stands here. You can then add in some dialogue between the starkid and Shepard that involves Shepard telling him that the choice we made is to let nature take it's course. Then, when the citadel is destroyed, the reapers are shown going dark, and the relays *shutting down*. Not exploding, just deactivating, as they all relied on the citadel. This leaves things in a mess, but there is still a ray of hope; you have the brains of the galaxy all in one place and they now have a vested interest in understanding the relays, in effect jumpstarting the 'stagnation' that everyone is talking about.

This could be expanded upon with further scenes, like all the reaper ground forces going into disarray without the guidance of the reapers, the victory of the Turian/Krogran/Rachni forces, varying amounts of devastation depending on readyness score.  Or make it the 'ultimate' ending that's unlocked with a high enough readyness score, and vary the cutscenes depending on what choices were made, who lived and died.

Show scenes of the tremendous losses incurred, panicked calls from other systems after the relays shut down, the general devastation.

Follow this up with scenes of the Quarian (or Geth, or both, depending on choices made) boarding the deactivated relay in Sol in an effort to understand the technology so they could (possibly) go home.  Interleave scences of your squad intertwined in all of this; Garrus/Grunt/Wrex directing soldiers during the rebuild, Liara and Tali being the first beings to enter a deactivated mass relay, etc.

You end up in nearly the same place you did, but with more closure and a glimmer of hope and the possibility of rebuilding from the ashes.

[Masseeffekt]

i also want a new ending, but this has been explained enough.

what i wanted to say:

i would be great to get the possibility to holster the weapon!

[TheBishop_82]

I second that! No holstering = WTF?

[General Skidog]

Jack, Jack and some more Jack please.

[Jills Toy]

Well I've got to say this is a first for me, seeing the developers ask what we would change and making a grand attempt to fix/alter what it was that has inspired so many ME fans to revolt! I for one was not expecting to play what is nothing more than a Greek Tagedy. After falling in love with the ME epical franchise with ME1 and 2, the characters/friendships/LI possibilities you have created and our ability to mold the story into dealing with the consequences we made and subsequent endings has been what keeps me searching the Bioware site for more of the same. I knew going in (based on past media) that this was to be the final chapter of the franchise. Not sure based on all the fan's input that is the best fiscal decision but then I'm not a member of your Board of Directors. Be that as it may, here is my input that relaly doesn't differ from previous input but hopefully adds to the spread sheet you've created and adds more weight to the final decision process.

1) Galactic Readines should not depend on the multiplayer. I know multiplayer is a huge hit with many gamers but not all of us.

2) Side quests should give us an "update/status" of the quest. Did we acquire the item? What is our next move to resolve it, etc. No biggie but with so many of them and the fact that most depend on how many War Assets you have acheived seems to be a critical element to how the game ends.

3) Yes, yes and yes. We really do need happier endings and they should be based on what choices were made throughout the game to include the amount of War Assets obtained if that was the goal for having more than one or two options. Enough has been voiced on this topic so I won't go any further.

4) Since we have lived with many of the characters for 5 plus years, I would really like to know how they faired at the end. Garrus plays such a large part of the Sheppard saga (BFF is they way I see it) that nothing is said of him or some of the other returning characters except Joker and whatever LI one may have. You really need to complete the story here!! There are some really good ideas provided in this thread and the ones that give us a future with Sheppard and his LI and/or squad mates are great input.

5) I thought the God child was a nifty idea but where did he (it?) originate, what was the evolution of the Reapers? I guess this goes to folks' plot issues.

6) Destroying the Realys and stranding all the supporting races in the Sol System seems to leave a lot unanswered. The stargazer ending doesn't occur on Earth unless some other large moon decided to enter orbit. Where the heck are they?

7) Give us the option to keep the Realys no matter if Sheppard lives or dies, the Reapers are destroyed or assimilated or move out to another dimmmension or whatever. My thought here is it leaves the franchise open for all new trilogies, Sheppard/LI's or whoever's descendants. You get the picture.

Bottom line going in, this was one of the best games I have ever played (awesome story writing, humor, you name it) and like others I waited impatiently for ME3 to hit the streets. But I didn't expect to have limited/disappointing options to an ending. Having Sheppard sacrifice him/herslef for the survival of the galaxy is fine but how about one where we all live happily ever after??

Thanks for listening

[swordmalice]

Having just finished the game last night, I can finally return to these forums to share my thoughts. At first, I was a bit shocked at the ending I received, but not for the reasons many others were. Because of the choices I've made since the beginning, I knew heading into the final battle that Shepard would have had to make some incredible hard choices in order to defeat the Reapers. When I made that choice (Synthesis) and saw the end result, I'll admit I was despondent. Maybe it's because I became so incredibly attached to Shepard that the thought of him sacrificing himself, leaving all of his closest friends and his love behind (or for dead) was truly heart-wrenching. But now that it's a new day, I'm slowly coming to terms with the outcome and will surely find acceptance one day. Kudos, Bioware, for making this series the first truly emotional video game experience I've ever had.

However, acceptance comes with some disappointment about the ending, which I will discuss now: the lack of closure on two things: the characters I have come to truly love: the squadmates and the fate of the civilizations I worked so hard to unite. So many lingering questions remain: what happened to the team during synthesis? (I haven't looked at other endings but I can assume the same remains true for all of them) More importantly, what happened to my teammates who were at my side when Harbinger attacked during the rush to the Conduit? Were they killed? What about the supporting cast from ME2? During my campaign, I managed to get the turians and krogan to work together, as well as the quarians and the geth. What impact did they have during the final battle on Earth? I saw Wrex and his men there, but other than Tali not a single quarian or ship from the Flotilla was found. And after Shepard achieved Synthesis, how did this affect them, and the rest of the galaxy's races? My hope is that these questions I've posed will provide some clear constructive criticism.

As a whole, I would like to say that Mass Effect 3 was an incredibly enjoyable experience and I look forward to more content, as well as answers to my lingering questions. Thank you.

Modifié par swordmalice, 27 mars 2012 - 04:01 .

[Erathsmedor]

How about instead of holstering your weapon we get the option to shoot the star child in the head, thereby shattering the Indoctrination attempt/illusion/dream/whatever-explanation-is-needed-to-get-rid-of-the-whole-retarded-(and-lore-breaking)-star-child-"the-reapers-are-my-toys-I-control-the-citadel-but-just-chose-not-to-until-now" rubbish, snapping Shepard back to reality and allowing us to finish the Battle for Earth. Give us an immediate epilogue of our allies and war assets and squadmates but leave the fate of the rest of the galaxy for DLC.

Only the main reaper force at Earth was destroyed. There are still reaper forces on all the homeworlds and colonies, let's have DLCs for liberating Tuchanka, Palaven, Omega etc. Hell you can even figure in our choices as to how it plays out.

Naturally each race is going to want its own homeworld liberated first. Do you pick Tuchanka or Thessia first? What are the galactic diplomatic implications? Do the Krogan pack up and go home, leaving you with a much tougher job of taking out the remaining reaper ground forces on Earth, or make the rebuilding much harder without Krogan heavy lifting so to speak?

Do the Salarians promise advanced technology to help rebuild earth if you assist them first, and if you do, what fallout will that have with the Turians since they committed entire fleets to liberate Earth while the Salarians did nothing because you cured the genophage (apart form a few STG groups who acted on their own) and so the Turians feel they deserve the help more?

And speaking of the STG groups - is that not a potentially great DLC there - those in the STG/military on the verge of overthrowing the Salarian government for their failure to act in the face of the reaper threat because you refused to go along with their underhanded plan to scew the Krogan again? One of the major powers on the verge of Civil War - and it is those who risked everything to fight alongside you on Earth, are now attempting to overthrow the civilian government - but for a cause and a reason that does not seem unreasonable. What does Shepard do to prevent a Civil War when the galaxy is trying to rebuild. Who do you side with, do you move to prevent or help a side win a Salarian Civil War? And what the consequences for the Salarian seat on the Council if one side or the other prevails? Hell - this one I would buy as a full expansion pack.

Or what if war looks like being renewed between the Geth and Quarians because a group led by Admiral Xen are still experimenting on Geth in an effort to revert them back to their essentially slave status?

But you have to get rid of the star child rubbish first.

Modifié par Erathsmedor, 27 mars 2012 - 04:09 .

[nvader.geez]

I've come across some pretty great weapons in the multiplayer will these ever be included in the single player campaign?

[steve3194]

[Isaacsg]

Impliment the Indoctrination Theory. Even keeping the current "end" but adding on with this theory continuing it.

Allow for 1 happy ending with LI, among other endings with failure as an option as well.

Honestly my only problems with the game. The ending must be addressed to make this series complete.

Thank you.

[steve3194]

Isaacsg wrote...

Impliment the Indoctrination Theory. Even keeping the current "end" but adding on with this theory continuing it.

Allow for 1 happy ending with LI, among other endings with failure as an option as well.

Honestly my only problems with the game. The ending must be addressed to make this series complete.

Thank you.

This.

Modifié par steve3194, 27 mars 2012 - 04:27 .

[Mordanticus]

Mordanticus online..

Although I have already made a few comments and suggestions about 100 or so pages back, and while I am sure these links have been posted before in innumerable threads, I still have to speak my peace (or in this case, let others vids echo my sentiment)..

Reasons why the endings tore our guts out..



Endings that would have been better than what we got..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5kqVB15Yab4&feature=youtu.be
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&NR=1&v=7zagpVInvjA

Or.. Just give me the happy ending where my Shepard lives, the galaxy is safe (for now), and I am NOT
angry, saddened, or emotionally devastated.. Seriously Bioware, change the endings via DLC.. Your fans have spoken volumes with everything we have said or done (aka. charity, cupcakes, videos, postings)..

Of course some people are okay with the endings, and that is fine.. but, a ton of us are not okay with them.. There are already plenty of rough times and depressing things in life, but why in the world would I pay money for more of them? I kind of buy games to keep me entertained and happy, before going back into the $#%*storm of life..

Sacrifice can be a noble thing.. but, didn't we see enough of it in many of those characters close to us? While it adds drama and pathos to a story, it needs to be used sparingly lest the sacrifices begin to lose their impact.. Did you have me near manly-tears when Mordin died? Yes.. When Thane passed away as we spoke a prayer with his son? Yes.. When Legion gave the spark of his conciousness that all other Geth could have their own? Yes.. So, these sacrifices had meaning and made my game more amazing..

However, my last sacrifice of Shepard (while heroic), left me hollow.. While the "animal house" ending above still incorporated his death, at least it brough closure and definitely made me chuckle.. Even that said, I still didn't want my Shepard to die.. So there you go, thats my suggestion.. Less Shepard death and more "Hey ancient God-child AI, I don't mean to interrupt your insane "sythetics are really here to save you" ramblings, but I'm just going to pull your plug over here if thats cool"..

Hold the line..

Mordanticus offline..

Modifié par Mordanticus, 27 mars 2012 - 04:36 .

[THEREALMC24]

Here're my ideas for the endings. I'd appreciate any feedback!
http://social.biowar...684/blog/212192

[Gutterfiend]

Ok, so I know this wouldn't be the "Ultimate" closure for everyone, but I'd be content.

A simple fix could be applied to the scene when we get the reveal that Shepard is alive (for those who had enough EMS). During this scene, as the camera pans over the rubble, the use of voice through Shepard's suit (or however he communicates with people) could be heard, starting out somewhat scrambled due to the damage but clearing up so as to be understood by the audience. For those who didn't have a romance, the voice could be Admiral Hackett's. For those with a love interest, it could be their voice. While the camera pans, the intercom would progressively increase in volume. Lines such as, "Shepard...Shepard...If you're there answer me. You did it. Is any one there? Come in, etc." For love interests, Bioware could add lines that would profess the characters' love for Shepard and their agony at the thought that he's dead...maybe even some crying, etc. And then Shepard takes his breath and the scene cuts.

I would have been so much more satisfied! Hope would exist that maybe Shepard could reunite with his loved one.

The whole Normandy crashing thing could be removed, but if they left it in I'd be ok. With the added voice over it would atleast give us hope that there was some chance of rescue for his crew...and the pit would be gone from my stomach. What do you guys think?

[Lord Hirudo]

 I think the indoctrination theory needs to be the way to go.  The dark matter plotline that got dropped also makes a lot more sense in my head than the synthetic vs organic thing, considering that I was able to get peace between the Geth and the Quarians.  It was extremely frustrating not to have a conversation option in reference to said peace when you were with the Catalyst.  I also didn't necessarily need to know why the Reapers did what they did.  After the end of ME2 I was satisfied with the theory that wiping out civilizations for their genetic material was simply how they multiplied.  The idea that they were doing this to avoid future conflicts is just goofy.

[Paul ATREIDES 0]

Hi everyone from France (and apologies if my english is not perfect) ! Don't know if anybody will read this after 215 pages and 5000 tons of anger and disappointment... but well, let's have some Shepard's spirit in me and keep on going and believing. ;-)
I've read a lot of analysis, comments and all. Usually, people forget to give a big thank first, so i won't do the same. Thanks. For every hours and minutes you worked on this project. Really. I've been... indoctrinated to Mass Effect from day one. Anyway. Now, let's cut right to the chase.
First, please stop making people sound like they are a bit stupid, childish or melodramatic. I write screenplays myself (for movies). People can accept a bad ending. An open ending, with philosophical issues is alright too (Deus Ex is an example). But what we need, complex or not, is an ending that shows friends involved and offers solutions. If sacrifice means making a choice between saving some friends or being selfish for humanity, then it's good. If when i helped the Quarians and the Geths unite, when i helped EDI and Joker having a romance has absolutely no consequences, then it's not possible ! But i'm sure you already heard that before me. What i mean is that i sincerely hope you won't make a "good ending for dummies", like... i don't know, Transformers or something (i kiss the girl near my fancy car near a silly orange sunset, and rock and roll !).

Then, like i said, i've read tons of comments of all kind. I just hope Bioware's choice will be to consider Shepard as indoctrinated in the actual ending and will begin a DLC story afterwards. One of the comments was particularly good (i can only suppose the guy is a screenwriter too). So if you have time, please read it. Especialy the 2nd part, that concerns the changes needed and the reasons why. Don't bother reading anything else, everything is here (and no, i don't know the guy and it's not me). You want something constructive, you got it. Here it goes :

jmstevenson.wordpress.com/2012/03/22/all-that-matters-is-the-ending-part-2-mass-effect-3/

Finally, i'd like to quote an other post from the french forum. It's from someone named Celtes, and i think it would be great to begin a DLC like this (here it is, translated) :

Shepard ...

...

Commander Shepard !

Do you really believe you ended the reapers cycle ??!!

Wake up !

Do you believe in the words of this "Catalyst" which maintains the reapers cycle, bringing the synthetics and the organics into slavery ?

Get up !

It offers you 3 solutions. Do you think there are no other solutions ? What about the peace you manage to bring between the Geths and the Quarians ? Or EDI ?

Wake up commander Shepard !!

It offers you to control the reapers !!
A choice that you refused to the Illusive Man because you thought they could not be controlled. And you ; you think you can ??!! Can you gamble the future of mankind, of the galaxy, on this sole belief ?


Commander Shepard !!

It offers you to synthesise both organic and synthetic life !!
Do you believe that changing the nature of all the beings in the galaxy without their consent is going to stop all conflicts ??!! Isn't it the diversity of our galaxy and of its people that makes it even richer ?

Get up ! The fight ain't over yet !!

It offers you to destroy the reapers !!
These synthetics beings totaly enslaved by their program and to the "Catalyst", that knows only to destroy what their essence - these organics within - would have wanted desperately to preserve. Can't they be freed from the diktat of the "Catalyst" like the Geth and EDI were freed ?

Can there be no hope for you ? For the organics ? For the synthetics ? For a peace between them ?

Can't we all live in harmony ? Everyone with its strenghts and weaknesses but united ?
Can't we do so many things together, both organics and synthetics  ?

Get up Shepard !!

Don't let this opressive "Catalyst" destroy all hopes that were born during this cycle !!
Fight for the Quarians and the Geths to finally coexist !
Fight for the Krogans to find back their past glory towards a new bright civilisation culturally rich !
Fight for the union between all of the people of the galaxy not to be vain !

Fight !

This cycle is not over yet Shepard !

Deny this indoctrination of the "Catalyst" !!!!

GET UP SHEPARD !!!

(If you want the original page, here it is

social.bioware.com/forums/forum/Mass-Effect-3/ME3---Discussion-sur-lhistoire/Spoiler-DEBOUT-SHEPARD--9864567-1.html

Thanks everyone for reading me. Hope to hear good news from Mass Effect 3 soon.

Modifié par Paul ATREIDES 0, 27 mars 2012 - 11:36 .