The thing that mass effect did better than any other game or media that I've ever had the pleasure or misfortune of partaking is that it dragged me kicking and screaming into caring about the characters.
Garrus' insubordination during his goodbye? Joker railing on you for lying about being ok. A million other things.
The primary side effect of that great piece of storytelling is that we not only want to, but we long to see how it all ends for that. We want to know that they are ok, or died a worthy death. We want to know if anyone survived the citadel, why do we want to know? Because we settle arguements between guards, bent the rules to let people in, and killed the human council all in the defence of those people.
But you leave us hanging in so many ways.
A better ending would be an ending that attempted to give pay-off to the emotional investment you let us front.
I mean from the second the citadel is moved to earth and closed no one even MENTIONS the fact that it was inhabited, or what a horrible fate awaited them. It doesn't even register.
We need an ever after. Not a happily ever after, not a sadly ever after. Just any ever after. Something that lets us know the state of the galaxy. We, your Shepards, have carried the entire galaxy on our backs from our fake recon mission to the reapers front door. But we are left with nothing at the end. Like someone just picked up all the weight and left us scratching our heads as to where it went.
ME3 Suggested Changes Feedback Thread - Spoilers Allowed
Débuté par
RaenImrahl
, mars 17 2012 03:00
Retour en haut
#677
Posté 17 mars 2012 - 05:22
Dishonest Nugget
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- Members
- 4 messages
Bioware your ending would have been great if you gave closure and filled in the gaps. Why did Catalyst take the form of the child? What was Joker doing out in faster than light jump? Is Shepard really indoctrinated? There is a difference between giving us a definitive ending and letting our imaginations run wild after the credits roll. Lastly is a common complaint my choices did not matter in the end. Maybe if we can fight Harbinger I want my surviving comrades to be standing at my side when ever we take down Harbinger. Harbinger is the main central enemy that made things personal.
#678
Posté 17 mars 2012 - 05:22
Darknessfalls23
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- Members
- 179 messages
I would like a reason for Reapers that is isn't completely rip off from other games/movies, Choices that don't feel like I'm just picking my favorite color. I am actually all right with Shepard dying but it be nice if felt like a real sacrifice. Maybe let him speak to people one last time before the last few minutes of his life. The number of endings doesn't matter to me, You could have a single ending where he pushes the button kills all the reapers, and then passes out and fade. Not telling people whether he died or not like the end of Shane, If you are going to steal , Steal from the best not Dues EX.
Other then that I would like at least challenging boss battle in the DLC content.
Other then that I would like at least challenging boss battle in the DLC content.
#679
Posté 17 mars 2012 - 05:22
DadeLeviathan
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- 678 messages
A multiple threaded ending that has various outcomes that responds to your choices through the series. The epic hero-sacrifice-himself ending for those who want that, the sunshine and bunnies ending for those that wnat that, and the depressing "this cycle is effed but at least the reapers are defeated" ending for those that want that. That's all I want. That is the ending that ME3 should have had in the first place.
Additionally, while we are on the concept of changes, there are a few storylines that never pay off, that really need to. Liara's time capsule, for example. We are only showed it once and then never again. This needs to pay off. Another that needs to pay off is Javik's vengeance against the reapers.
There needs to be more closure, and more in-depth relationships between characters that deserve it. The fact that Jack's and Miranda's romances in ME3 are pretty much delegated down to a similar path of what Liara was in ME2 minus the shadow broker DLC is nothing short of lazy and insulting to fans that chose them in ME2.
Finally, weapon mods and dialogue. Dialogue is not something that will be able to be fixed. There just isn't the budget for that. I was very dissapointed that alot of the dialogue was forced on us, and that the whole series has seen less and less dialogue choices. There were events in the game that really needed dialogue choices that just never did.
Weapon mods are too few. Having only 5 for each weapon doesn't allow nearly as much flexibiliy. Why isn't there is a light-weight parts mod for the other four weapons? Why isn't there a concentration mod for the other four? Why can't I put a scope on my shotgun?
Additionally, while we are on the concept of changes, there are a few storylines that never pay off, that really need to. Liara's time capsule, for example. We are only showed it once and then never again. This needs to pay off. Another that needs to pay off is Javik's vengeance against the reapers.
There needs to be more closure, and more in-depth relationships between characters that deserve it. The fact that Jack's and Miranda's romances in ME3 are pretty much delegated down to a similar path of what Liara was in ME2 minus the shadow broker DLC is nothing short of lazy and insulting to fans that chose them in ME2.
Finally, weapon mods and dialogue. Dialogue is not something that will be able to be fixed. There just isn't the budget for that. I was very dissapointed that alot of the dialogue was forced on us, and that the whole series has seen less and less dialogue choices. There were events in the game that really needed dialogue choices that just never did.
Weapon mods are too few. Having only 5 for each weapon doesn't allow nearly as much flexibiliy. Why isn't there is a light-weight parts mod for the other four weapons? Why isn't there a concentration mod for the other four? Why can't I put a scope on my shotgun?
#680
Posté 17 mars 2012 - 05:23
Nephilym83
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- Members
- 29 messages
Here's an ending idea I thought was quite brilliant:
Things progress as before, learning that the Crucible needs the Catalyst, proceeding through the Cerberus plans and plots, learning that the Citadel is the Catalyst, and onward to Earth. Once at the beam, however, things change drastically. Again, Harbringer descends and destroys the troops, only this time Shepard does not reach the beam. Harbringer stops to directly address him for the first time, ignoring the incoming fire from the assembled fleet. Perhaps Shepards squad members survive, perhaps they don't. At this point, it is a futile gesture. Harbringer has won, and it knows it. Harbringer tells Shepard that the cycle must not be stopped, hinting again that the Reapers are driven by something greater than their own motivations, and reiterating the Rannoch-reapers statement that the Reapers are the only hope for sentient organics. Interestingly, for the first time, Harbringer indicates that they, as much as anyone else, are victims of this cycle. Crucially, it must become obvious at this point that the Reapers, while incredibly advanced, show no sign of altruism or nobility, and do not have the capacity for self-sacrifice. As such, they are not sentient.
To reiterate, the Reapers are less developed than the Geth or EDI. They are an evolutionary dead-end, as Synthetic Lifeforms go.
This fact should be immediately realized by the Geth (if they still exist) and EDI. What follows should depend on the players actions in the previous games and ME3. Whatever happens, people, ships, and old allies begin fighting to protect Shepard. They hit the Reaper in it's main 'eye' as it prepares to fire, distracting Harbringer, and buying time for Shepard to crawl the rest of the way to the beam. Perhaps nobody is left. Shepard dies. It's a sad ending, but a noble death, facing down a 2 mile high monster with your honor intact. Liaras time capsules survive, though, giving the next cycle a chance. But let's say Shepard makes it to the beam. Harbringer brings down the teleporter as he goes, leaving him alone. No Anderson, no squad, just Shepard making his way through the ruins of the Presidium. There are no survivors. As he reaches the awaiting Crucible, he is stopped by the most unlikely of figures.
AVINA.
No magical ghost child. In fact, the child could probably be removed in its entirety without hurting the game. The Catalyst is the Citadel, itself a small part of a much larger system. It has co-opted AVINA to speak with Shepard. As the battle rages on outside, Shepard and the hologram speak, as it takes on various forms of people he has met and seen killed. The VI is nigh-omniscient, with each rising galactic culture building the convenient Citadel systems into the heart of their communication and economic systems. The Catalyst has always been there, acting as a translator and silent observer, preserving a record of every species that has ever existed in the cycles. It is not a true AI, but the sheer volume of data is has available ensures that its primary directive can account for every eventuality. What that directive is does not need to be stated. As the Reapers noted, their goals are unknowable. Claiming that midichlorians cause the Force did not improve Star Wars.
However, despite all of its data, the VI cannot account for Shepard. It has no means of preventing him from using the Prothean Crucible, and instead, serving its enigmatic creators, offers him his choices on how to use it.
Option 1: The original intent of the Crucible, as a scorched Earth solution. The device will permanently render all Eezo in the galaxy inert. Starship cores will be lumps of useless metal, biotics will lose their powers, and the galaxy will be plunged into a dark age, free from the Reapers, all Mass Effect technology, and the Mass Relays. The fight will end, the fleet will fall silent. Earth is now the last refuge of a dozen species.
Option 2: Prompted by the arrival of The Illusive Man, a modified Crucible signal can control the Reapers and all other Synthetic technology, bringing it all under the sway of Organic life. The Geth, The Reapers, and EDI are all shackled AIs once more.
Option 3: Destroy the Citadel, free the Reapers. Shepard sacrifices himself, detonating the Crucible, destroying the Citadel, and the VI controlling the Reapers. Humanities greatest enemy is now an unshackled AI, free to self-modify their code, and find their own way in the universe. The Reapers stop their attack, and retreat for parts unknown.
Option 4: Do Nothing. Honor before death, Shepard disables the Illusive Man and sits, watching the fight with AVINA. With enough raw military strength, and the combined might of every fleet and empire in the galaxy, perhaps the Reapers might be defeated. Best case, the Reapers are destroyed outright, but at a terrible cost. Worst case, the fleet is swept aside and the Reapers are unchallenged. Middle of the road, the Reapers are slowed, for a time. Long enough to seed Liaras time capsules among the stars, and place members of each race into stasis pods as hope for the future.
Option 5: Well, maybe not. You remember what I set about EDI having the Capacity for Self-Sacrifice? Perhaps, if Shepard has made just the right choices through the trilogy, there is another way. The Normandy arrives, and EDI can transfer to the Citadel computers, displacing the Catalyst, and becoming it. There is a catch, of course. EDI has self-modified her code, and she has learned from Shepard.
a. EDI sends the Reapers away, giving the people of the galaxy another 50,000 years to rebuild and prepare.
b. EDI infects the Reaper code…with the Geth. The Geth take over the Reaper forces, becoming like unto gods. The outcome depends on Shepards interaction with the Geth up to this point.
c. (If Shepard chooses a Paragon path when dealing with EDI) EDI sacrifices herself, transferring herself to the Reaper ships like a virus, and disabling them from within. With their Kinetic barriers down, the Reaper ships are annihilated by the fleet.
d. (If Shepard chooses a Renegade path when dealing with EDI) EDI's self-preservation instinct is fully intact. She still destroys the Reaper ships, but she does it from afar, ensuring the the two fleets are evenly matched. The destruction is total on both sides.
The ending shows each of the companions. If Shepard is alive, with a conversation, if they're dead, as a cutscene. Party members killed in action are added to the memorial wall, which the camera slowly pans down, showing each of their faces as the name passes by.
Things progress as before, learning that the Crucible needs the Catalyst, proceeding through the Cerberus plans and plots, learning that the Citadel is the Catalyst, and onward to Earth. Once at the beam, however, things change drastically. Again, Harbringer descends and destroys the troops, only this time Shepard does not reach the beam. Harbringer stops to directly address him for the first time, ignoring the incoming fire from the assembled fleet. Perhaps Shepards squad members survive, perhaps they don't. At this point, it is a futile gesture. Harbringer has won, and it knows it. Harbringer tells Shepard that the cycle must not be stopped, hinting again that the Reapers are driven by something greater than their own motivations, and reiterating the Rannoch-reapers statement that the Reapers are the only hope for sentient organics. Interestingly, for the first time, Harbringer indicates that they, as much as anyone else, are victims of this cycle. Crucially, it must become obvious at this point that the Reapers, while incredibly advanced, show no sign of altruism or nobility, and do not have the capacity for self-sacrifice. As such, they are not sentient.
To reiterate, the Reapers are less developed than the Geth or EDI. They are an evolutionary dead-end, as Synthetic Lifeforms go.
This fact should be immediately realized by the Geth (if they still exist) and EDI. What follows should depend on the players actions in the previous games and ME3. Whatever happens, people, ships, and old allies begin fighting to protect Shepard. They hit the Reaper in it's main 'eye' as it prepares to fire, distracting Harbringer, and buying time for Shepard to crawl the rest of the way to the beam. Perhaps nobody is left. Shepard dies. It's a sad ending, but a noble death, facing down a 2 mile high monster with your honor intact. Liaras time capsules survive, though, giving the next cycle a chance. But let's say Shepard makes it to the beam. Harbringer brings down the teleporter as he goes, leaving him alone. No Anderson, no squad, just Shepard making his way through the ruins of the Presidium. There are no survivors. As he reaches the awaiting Crucible, he is stopped by the most unlikely of figures.
AVINA.
No magical ghost child. In fact, the child could probably be removed in its entirety without hurting the game. The Catalyst is the Citadel, itself a small part of a much larger system. It has co-opted AVINA to speak with Shepard. As the battle rages on outside, Shepard and the hologram speak, as it takes on various forms of people he has met and seen killed. The VI is nigh-omniscient, with each rising galactic culture building the convenient Citadel systems into the heart of their communication and economic systems. The Catalyst has always been there, acting as a translator and silent observer, preserving a record of every species that has ever existed in the cycles. It is not a true AI, but the sheer volume of data is has available ensures that its primary directive can account for every eventuality. What that directive is does not need to be stated. As the Reapers noted, their goals are unknowable. Claiming that midichlorians cause the Force did not improve Star Wars.
However, despite all of its data, the VI cannot account for Shepard. It has no means of preventing him from using the Prothean Crucible, and instead, serving its enigmatic creators, offers him his choices on how to use it.
Option 1: The original intent of the Crucible, as a scorched Earth solution. The device will permanently render all Eezo in the galaxy inert. Starship cores will be lumps of useless metal, biotics will lose their powers, and the galaxy will be plunged into a dark age, free from the Reapers, all Mass Effect technology, and the Mass Relays. The fight will end, the fleet will fall silent. Earth is now the last refuge of a dozen species.
Option 2: Prompted by the arrival of The Illusive Man, a modified Crucible signal can control the Reapers and all other Synthetic technology, bringing it all under the sway of Organic life. The Geth, The Reapers, and EDI are all shackled AIs once more.
Option 3: Destroy the Citadel, free the Reapers. Shepard sacrifices himself, detonating the Crucible, destroying the Citadel, and the VI controlling the Reapers. Humanities greatest enemy is now an unshackled AI, free to self-modify their code, and find their own way in the universe. The Reapers stop their attack, and retreat for parts unknown.
Option 4: Do Nothing. Honor before death, Shepard disables the Illusive Man and sits, watching the fight with AVINA. With enough raw military strength, and the combined might of every fleet and empire in the galaxy, perhaps the Reapers might be defeated. Best case, the Reapers are destroyed outright, but at a terrible cost. Worst case, the fleet is swept aside and the Reapers are unchallenged. Middle of the road, the Reapers are slowed, for a time. Long enough to seed Liaras time capsules among the stars, and place members of each race into stasis pods as hope for the future.
Option 5: Well, maybe not. You remember what I set about EDI having the Capacity for Self-Sacrifice? Perhaps, if Shepard has made just the right choices through the trilogy, there is another way. The Normandy arrives, and EDI can transfer to the Citadel computers, displacing the Catalyst, and becoming it. There is a catch, of course. EDI has self-modified her code, and she has learned from Shepard.
a. EDI sends the Reapers away, giving the people of the galaxy another 50,000 years to rebuild and prepare.
b. EDI infects the Reaper code…with the Geth. The Geth take over the Reaper forces, becoming like unto gods. The outcome depends on Shepards interaction with the Geth up to this point.
c. (If Shepard chooses a Paragon path when dealing with EDI) EDI sacrifices herself, transferring herself to the Reaper ships like a virus, and disabling them from within. With their Kinetic barriers down, the Reaper ships are annihilated by the fleet.
d. (If Shepard chooses a Renegade path when dealing with EDI) EDI's self-preservation instinct is fully intact. She still destroys the Reaper ships, but she does it from afar, ensuring the the two fleets are evenly matched. The destruction is total on both sides.
The ending shows each of the companions. If Shepard is alive, with a conversation, if they're dead, as a cutscene. Party members killed in action are added to the memorial wall, which the camera slowly pans down, showing each of their faces as the name passes by.
#681
Posté 17 mars 2012 - 05:23
Cirreus
-
- Members
- 277 messages
[quote]Jessica Merizan wrote...
Saying "this blows" helps no one.
Chris and I are both collecting your feedback. We're listening. Make yourself heard.[/quote]
[/quote]
1. Stop Patronizing your customers.
Where is the "I'm sorry" ? Doesn't have to be a disclaimer sticker on every box sold. Until that happens, everyone is going to think EA/Bioware is still full of it. Acknowledgement that what was marketed wasn't what was received. Telling us not sum up the game as "this blows" re-affirms to me EA/Bioware either do not care about customers or worse, EA/Bioware knew this game was rushed, planned the controversy & played if off as clever.
2. Get off twitter.
I do not under any circumstances need to hear about updates of magnitude to this game on social media. Social media may appear to an effective means to reach your audience, but it's impersonal & related back to point 1. Like killing off Emily Wong to be replaced with Jessica Chobot through social media, it's bad taste. I feels like Bioware is trying to keep the shareholders as much in the dark as your fans, using services your bosses do not. Good thing they read Forbes though.
3. Bug Fixes
We don't need a blow by blow account of daily activities (although it wouldn't hurt), but we do need now insight about the progress of bug updates. This is win win. Modern complex games like ME3 need fixes like any other game. Tell us what's going on with the journal? It's broke; we know it's on the list of thing to get fixed. There are scene jumping/clipping issues across between dialog & scripted events. Xbox 360 disc shuffling ... LMFAO wasn't invited to my Mass Effect 3 install.
4. Trust
There is none right now. Do everything within reason to fix that trust. We only here because of desperation. That will fade in time & so will our reasoning to buy anything from Bioware again. All communication/marketing/interviews up until now (including this thread) with Mass Effect 3 needs to be considered a failure. Look in the mirror, throw some water in your face and get your sh*t together. If the "ending" was a publicity stunt it's going to back fire worse than the current situation is. I have no advice other than to disclose it now rather than later. Back to that trust thing.
If you need an example of what trust is for an upcoming AAA title, look at what Gearbox is doing here;
i.imgur.com/1bDzh.jpg Take note of the lack of branding. It's not a love letter because of the roses & candles, it's the content of the message. It says "I know my customer, I know my fans, I know my patrons".Print that out on a the biggest printer you have, plaster it on the walls of your marketing department & tell them stare at it until osmosis occurs.
5. Multiplayer & SP - Galaxy at War
I don't believe I'm going to get anyone out of EA/Bioware to admit the that the minimum EMS and near impossibility of getting 10k War Assets is a form of DRM, but I can tell you (Bioware) how to keep some cake & nibble it too.
On the iOS Mass Effect 3 Datapad program, there is a section that allows fleet deployment missions that effect your EMS in the actual game. FOR THE LOVE OF GOD, put that in the war room at a console at the center of the room. Make the missions faster, 1hr timers tops. Make getting war assets count toward these missions. Do I want a better fleshed out 3D model Turn Based Mini game there ? Yes!, but I'll take what is already on my iPad (just tweaked to be faster & more fun in-game). This way, you can still require an active connection to EA's server & anyone not feeling multiplayer gets an immersive aspect that is sorely missed with this resource.
As for that screen that tells us what's going on with the war ... it's broken. It should easily reflect the amount of choices we have towards the end game. It just shows how fast I can start the end game. Not helpful.
Also I need a big red button to deploy the fleet at end game. Staples has them, lots of them.
6. The Ending
This goes back to point 1, 3 & 4. I don't have the words to describe the betrayal I'm experiencing from this medium. It feels as if though my dog died. It's not one thing (the ending), it's the entire game. When I finished Mass Effect 3, my entire experience with this franchise (even including a little bit of Dragon Age & KotOR) felt pointless. That is the most important thing you guys at Bioware need to know. It's not the cosmopolitan ice cream choice ending you provided that is the point of distress. It is the gut wrenching realization that I am unwilling to play it or anything that reminds of Mass Effect every again.
If you need a blow by blow on the ending's failure, read this guy’s post ... also pay him whatever amount of money he asks to review your work. social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/355/index/10022779
7. DLC
Like with point 6 on my dog dying. DLC conjures images of my wallet being dated raped. EA/Bioware PR reps are pinball wizards when it comes to positive perception of the company. Back to point 1 on the "From Ashes" DLC. Release it for free as an olive branch along with $10 credit to anyone that purchased already (including Collectors Editions). Make sure it's not for multiplayer DLC.
Exclusive DLC ... STOP IT, NO NO NO NO! Mass Effect 2, Dragon Age 2 suffered from some of the worst case of exclusive DLC imaginable. I'm legitimately surprised there wasn't exclusive DLC for buying a new car. I don't mind DLC, I just don't want to have to buy Dolls, books, toys, soda, facebook & canned cat food to get your product. Sell it in game as well as out of game. It's not hard. It's $$$ money $$$ , here take it (if it fixes the endings).
8. Fan Service - Remembering Marauder Shields
This lovable guy is the result of my mind blocking out everything that proceeded. I want him in game in greater capacity. This needs to be a near 100% collaboration between Bioware & its fans. Nothing says we hear you like fixing the endings & throwing a cherry on top. Marauder Shields is PR gold if handled correctly between fans & developers. At least tell those guys over at Funimation working Paragon Lost to keep the ink wet & the rendering farms warm.
9. Charity
Match the donation dollar for dollar. It's worth 10 times it's weight in postive public relations. Come out & say "we approve this form of postive debate". It's slippery slope, but the risk is little & some kid get's 5mins of peace out of his/her day.
social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/355/index/9845819
Saying "this blows" helps no one.
Chris and I are both collecting your feedback. We're listening. Make yourself heard.[/quote]
[/quote]
1. Stop Patronizing your customers.
Where is the "I'm sorry" ? Doesn't have to be a disclaimer sticker on every box sold. Until that happens, everyone is going to think EA/Bioware is still full of it. Acknowledgement that what was marketed wasn't what was received. Telling us not sum up the game as "this blows" re-affirms to me EA/Bioware either do not care about customers or worse, EA/Bioware knew this game was rushed, planned the controversy & played if off as clever.
2. Get off twitter.
I do not under any circumstances need to hear about updates of magnitude to this game on social media. Social media may appear to an effective means to reach your audience, but it's impersonal & related back to point 1. Like killing off Emily Wong to be replaced with Jessica Chobot through social media, it's bad taste. I feels like Bioware is trying to keep the shareholders as much in the dark as your fans, using services your bosses do not. Good thing they read Forbes though.
3. Bug Fixes
We don't need a blow by blow account of daily activities (although it wouldn't hurt), but we do need now insight about the progress of bug updates. This is win win. Modern complex games like ME3 need fixes like any other game. Tell us what's going on with the journal? It's broke; we know it's on the list of thing to get fixed. There are scene jumping/clipping issues across between dialog & scripted events. Xbox 360 disc shuffling ... LMFAO wasn't invited to my Mass Effect 3 install.
4. Trust
There is none right now. Do everything within reason to fix that trust. We only here because of desperation. That will fade in time & so will our reasoning to buy anything from Bioware again. All communication/marketing/interviews up until now (including this thread) with Mass Effect 3 needs to be considered a failure. Look in the mirror, throw some water in your face and get your sh*t together. If the "ending" was a publicity stunt it's going to back fire worse than the current situation is. I have no advice other than to disclose it now rather than later. Back to that trust thing.
If you need an example of what trust is for an upcoming AAA title, look at what Gearbox is doing here;
i.imgur.com/1bDzh.jpg Take note of the lack of branding. It's not a love letter because of the roses & candles, it's the content of the message. It says "I know my customer, I know my fans, I know my patrons".Print that out on a the biggest printer you have, plaster it on the walls of your marketing department & tell them stare at it until osmosis occurs.
5. Multiplayer & SP - Galaxy at War
I don't believe I'm going to get anyone out of EA/Bioware to admit the that the minimum EMS and near impossibility of getting 10k War Assets is a form of DRM, but I can tell you (Bioware) how to keep some cake & nibble it too.
On the iOS Mass Effect 3 Datapad program, there is a section that allows fleet deployment missions that effect your EMS in the actual game. FOR THE LOVE OF GOD, put that in the war room at a console at the center of the room. Make the missions faster, 1hr timers tops. Make getting war assets count toward these missions. Do I want a better fleshed out 3D model Turn Based Mini game there ? Yes!, but I'll take what is already on my iPad (just tweaked to be faster & more fun in-game). This way, you can still require an active connection to EA's server & anyone not feeling multiplayer gets an immersive aspect that is sorely missed with this resource.
As for that screen that tells us what's going on with the war ... it's broken. It should easily reflect the amount of choices we have towards the end game. It just shows how fast I can start the end game. Not helpful.
Also I need a big red button to deploy the fleet at end game. Staples has them, lots of them.
6. The Ending
This goes back to point 1, 3 & 4. I don't have the words to describe the betrayal I'm experiencing from this medium. It feels as if though my dog died. It's not one thing (the ending), it's the entire game. When I finished Mass Effect 3, my entire experience with this franchise (even including a little bit of Dragon Age & KotOR) felt pointless. That is the most important thing you guys at Bioware need to know. It's not the cosmopolitan ice cream choice ending you provided that is the point of distress. It is the gut wrenching realization that I am unwilling to play it or anything that reminds of Mass Effect every again.
If you need a blow by blow on the ending's failure, read this guy’s post ... also pay him whatever amount of money he asks to review your work. social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/355/index/10022779
7. DLC
Like with point 6 on my dog dying. DLC conjures images of my wallet being dated raped. EA/Bioware PR reps are pinball wizards when it comes to positive perception of the company. Back to point 1 on the "From Ashes" DLC. Release it for free as an olive branch along with $10 credit to anyone that purchased already (including Collectors Editions). Make sure it's not for multiplayer DLC.
Exclusive DLC ... STOP IT, NO NO NO NO! Mass Effect 2, Dragon Age 2 suffered from some of the worst case of exclusive DLC imaginable. I'm legitimately surprised there wasn't exclusive DLC for buying a new car. I don't mind DLC, I just don't want to have to buy Dolls, books, toys, soda, facebook & canned cat food to get your product. Sell it in game as well as out of game. It's not hard. It's $$$ money $$$ , here take it (if it fixes the endings).
8. Fan Service - Remembering Marauder Shields
This lovable guy is the result of my mind blocking out everything that proceeded. I want him in game in greater capacity. This needs to be a near 100% collaboration between Bioware & its fans. Nothing says we hear you like fixing the endings & throwing a cherry on top. Marauder Shields is PR gold if handled correctly between fans & developers. At least tell those guys over at Funimation working Paragon Lost to keep the ink wet & the rendering farms warm.
9. Charity
Match the donation dollar for dollar. It's worth 10 times it's weight in postive public relations. Come out & say "we approve this form of postive debate". It's slippery slope, but the risk is little & some kid get's 5mins of peace out of his/her day.
social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/355/index/9845819
Modifié par Cirreus, 17 mars 2012 - 05:56 .
#682
Posté 17 mars 2012 - 05:23
ImminentFatality
-
- Members
- 32 messages
The endings where absolutely an utter disappointment in my eyes and many others, but this can be fixed with either the indoctrination theory or an alternative ending allowing all the choices you have made in the past mass effect games effect the ending, for example if you went paragon in most of everything the key events any way's, you should be rewarded with an ending that makes you the player feel rewarded in all the time you put caring for other characters, and all the time making good decisions leading to a better outcome, showing the wonderful outcomes of the things you have fixed. An also I would like to say, make the ending describe how what you had done effects the galaxy, yeah we can hear how it may play out, but you can never know exactly without seeing it yourself, and mostly let commander shepard be with his squad, I romanced ashley and she told me before I left that she loved me, I can not just forget her, just die like that, yeah people may remember my name, but I feel me and all players have a lot to live for after the ending, especially with they have a romantic partner that there shepard is deeply in love with. My shepard has gone from full paragon in ME1 by getting Saren to kill himself, I just want a fair ending for my shepard, he/she deserves it, at least give shepard that much, enough to live life in peace, and see all that he/she is done play out in an epic continuation of Mass Effect 3!
#683
Posté 17 mars 2012 - 05:23
bro_9009
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I'm gonna add my voice to those who want a range of final outcomes and an epilogue. From total destruction to total victory where Shepard is alive with love interest and "blue kids"/home on Rannoch, depending on EMS and previous choices.
Here are some ideas from this and many other threads that I agree with and think are great:
- Liara's memory boxes can be used in total destruction ending. Maybe a cutscene with one of the boxes being found in a distant future by unknown species (we can see their shade on the ground by the discovered box). Box begins to play Liara's message about Shepard, while displaying data about Reapers, for example. This is a bittersweet ending, with hope that the next cycle will find a way to stop the Reapers for good.
- Add an option for Shepard to try to convince the Catalyst with paragon/renegade dialog options that synthetics and organics can co-exist peacefully, with success of persuasion depending on choices made previously. Like if Shepard managed to make peace between Geth and quarians. Mention that geth are building homes for quarians and improving their immune systems. Mention EDI becoming more humane and caring about Normandy's crew and Joker specifically. Mention that sentient beings (synthetics/organics) should have a right to have a free future without Reapers deciding their fate for them. If Shepard is successful, Catalyst can shutdown or destroy all Reapers, because they are no longer needed to "protect" organics by wiping them out.
- If trying to disprove Catalyst logic fails/or if Shepard doesn't want to convince Catalyst, add an option to refuse to submit to its three choices. Mention for example that Shepard wouldn't listen to some AI that "protects" organics by performing genocide. After that, the outcome of the battle can be in the hands of the allied fleets/troops and depends on EMS. Maybe add a way that Reaper shields can be taken down, as was suggested before, making the job of allies easier. As it stands, with A, B, C choices from current ending and Shepard just accepting them - it is out of his character.
- Normandy with squadmates running makes no sense, from their previous quotes - they would never abandon Shepard. Maybe a shuttle or the Normandy can pick Shepard up from the Citadel. They can land on Earth afterward for the final scene.
- Give closure to characters/races. ME story is great because it makes players care about them, and the influence players' choices had on them, like decisions about genophage, Geth/quarians future etc. With current endings it just feels as a big hole in the story and ruins the whole experience for quite a lot of those that played Mass Effect from the first game. DA:O and Awakening, DA2 and Jade Empire are good examples of a great epilogue, I think. DA:O had a scene mourning the main character if he made the ultimate sacrifice, and last dialogs with his/her friends if he survived. And there was an epilogue giving closure to the whole story of races and characters in the end. ME2's squadmates comments after the game ends also were pretty good.
- Give closure to the love interest plot. Quite a lot of the story was dedicated to LI, after all. Not to mention Shadow Broker that expanded Liara's romance plot that was totally missing from ME2. I understand that "little blue children" that I think most players with Liara as Shepard's LI in their playthroughs would love to see, would take a lot of work and is probably unrealistic to ask for. But if players get to see Shepard with his/her love interest at the end, that would make a lot of people very happy. Either when LI is mourning Shepard's death, or if he is alive and they're standing together, in the ruins on Earth for example.
- No need to destroy Mass Relays and the Citadel. Even if it is Reaper tech, Geth evolve into individuals by using it. And Citadel was the seat of the Council after all, which tried to promote peace between species. So even if Reapers used ME relays network and the Citadel to control the evolution to their needs, it doesn't have to be destroyed once they are gone.
I loved BioWare games starting with KOTOR, there was always a good inspirational end possible, where the main character survives and completes his mission. At least one happy end, in my humble opinion, would not have made ME3 any less of an artistic marvel or "less realistic" or "not in tune with the story". But it would have made a lot of players happier than they are now.
That pretty much sums up all my previous posts on the matter in this forum. Personally, yes, I would have loved a total victory with blue kids and galactic peace, even if it makes me a hopeless romantic. But I also think that there should be a range of endings, from bittersweet to "awesome victory" that would have reflected all of our choices from three games.
And if the endings will be fixed, personally, I have no problem with waiting for it as long as it takes, if they will be made as complete and great as possible, deserving to be an end to such a great story.
PS: sorry for any mistakes and thanks for listening to feedback.
EDIT: Please, don't make it so that in order to get the ultimate good ending, we'll have to pick Synthesis choice or destruction of Geth and synthetics. Synthesis forces the will of one person on all living beings, it feels wrong, especially for paragon main character. And killing Geth crushes all efforts to make peace between them and the quarians. So, IMHO, these choices are nowhere near to a good end.
Here are some ideas from this and many other threads that I agree with and think are great:
- Liara's memory boxes can be used in total destruction ending. Maybe a cutscene with one of the boxes being found in a distant future by unknown species (we can see their shade on the ground by the discovered box). Box begins to play Liara's message about Shepard, while displaying data about Reapers, for example. This is a bittersweet ending, with hope that the next cycle will find a way to stop the Reapers for good.
- Add an option for Shepard to try to convince the Catalyst with paragon/renegade dialog options that synthetics and organics can co-exist peacefully, with success of persuasion depending on choices made previously. Like if Shepard managed to make peace between Geth and quarians. Mention that geth are building homes for quarians and improving their immune systems. Mention EDI becoming more humane and caring about Normandy's crew and Joker specifically. Mention that sentient beings (synthetics/organics) should have a right to have a free future without Reapers deciding their fate for them. If Shepard is successful, Catalyst can shutdown or destroy all Reapers, because they are no longer needed to "protect" organics by wiping them out.
- If trying to disprove Catalyst logic fails/or if Shepard doesn't want to convince Catalyst, add an option to refuse to submit to its three choices. Mention for example that Shepard wouldn't listen to some AI that "protects" organics by performing genocide. After that, the outcome of the battle can be in the hands of the allied fleets/troops and depends on EMS. Maybe add a way that Reaper shields can be taken down, as was suggested before, making the job of allies easier. As it stands, with A, B, C choices from current ending and Shepard just accepting them - it is out of his character.
- Normandy with squadmates running makes no sense, from their previous quotes - they would never abandon Shepard. Maybe a shuttle or the Normandy can pick Shepard up from the Citadel. They can land on Earth afterward for the final scene.
- Give closure to characters/races. ME story is great because it makes players care about them, and the influence players' choices had on them, like decisions about genophage, Geth/quarians future etc. With current endings it just feels as a big hole in the story and ruins the whole experience for quite a lot of those that played Mass Effect from the first game. DA:O and Awakening, DA2 and Jade Empire are good examples of a great epilogue, I think. DA:O had a scene mourning the main character if he made the ultimate sacrifice, and last dialogs with his/her friends if he survived. And there was an epilogue giving closure to the whole story of races and characters in the end. ME2's squadmates comments after the game ends also were pretty good.
- Give closure to the love interest plot. Quite a lot of the story was dedicated to LI, after all. Not to mention Shadow Broker that expanded Liara's romance plot that was totally missing from ME2. I understand that "little blue children" that I think most players with Liara as Shepard's LI in their playthroughs would love to see, would take a lot of work and is probably unrealistic to ask for. But if players get to see Shepard with his/her love interest at the end, that would make a lot of people very happy. Either when LI is mourning Shepard's death, or if he is alive and they're standing together, in the ruins on Earth for example.
- No need to destroy Mass Relays and the Citadel. Even if it is Reaper tech, Geth evolve into individuals by using it. And Citadel was the seat of the Council after all, which tried to promote peace between species. So even if Reapers used ME relays network and the Citadel to control the evolution to their needs, it doesn't have to be destroyed once they are gone.
I loved BioWare games starting with KOTOR, there was always a good inspirational end possible, where the main character survives and completes his mission. At least one happy end, in my humble opinion, would not have made ME3 any less of an artistic marvel or "less realistic" or "not in tune with the story". But it would have made a lot of players happier than they are now.
That pretty much sums up all my previous posts on the matter in this forum. Personally, yes, I would have loved a total victory with blue kids and galactic peace, even if it makes me a hopeless romantic. But I also think that there should be a range of endings, from bittersweet to "awesome victory" that would have reflected all of our choices from three games.
And if the endings will be fixed, personally, I have no problem with waiting for it as long as it takes, if they will be made as complete and great as possible, deserving to be an end to such a great story.
PS: sorry for any mistakes and thanks for listening to feedback.
EDIT: Please, don't make it so that in order to get the ultimate good ending, we'll have to pick Synthesis choice or destruction of Geth and synthetics. Synthesis forces the will of one person on all living beings, it feels wrong, especially for paragon main character. And killing Geth crushes all efforts to make peace between them and the quarians. So, IMHO, these choices are nowhere near to a good end.
Modifié par bro_9009, 18 mars 2012 - 02:09 .
#684
Posté 17 mars 2012 - 05:24
KawaiiKatie
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The ending of ME3 was devoid of hope and closure. As someone who has played the first two Mass Effect games several times, I felt that the ending provided in ME3 was an extremely unsatisfactory way to end the series. Before the launch of ME3, Bioware promised again and again that the game would provide closure and a satisfying resolution to Commander Shepard's story, and in my opinion, Bioware has thus far failed to deliver on those promises. I don't feel like I can trust Bioware any more.
On the one hand, I would love to see a DLC that provides the closure I so desperately crave, but on the other, I'm disgusted by the idea of Bioware asking me to pay even more money to get that closure. A well-rounded, in-depth conclusion and epilogue should have been in ME3 from the start. Teasing disappointed players like myself with quotes such as Casey Hudson's "This is not the last you’ll hear of Commander Shepard." seems extremely unfair and uncalled for, especially after promising that ME3 would mark the end of Shepard's journey.
I suppose the bottom line is: I'd like to see an ME3 DLC specifically devoted to closure, though it deeply hurts me that such an ending wasn't included in the base game. I feel betrayed, Bioware, and in the future I will definitely hestitate before purchasing any of your products.
On the one hand, I would love to see a DLC that provides the closure I so desperately crave, but on the other, I'm disgusted by the idea of Bioware asking me to pay even more money to get that closure. A well-rounded, in-depth conclusion and epilogue should have been in ME3 from the start. Teasing disappointed players like myself with quotes such as Casey Hudson's "This is not the last you’ll hear of Commander Shepard." seems extremely unfair and uncalled for, especially after promising that ME3 would mark the end of Shepard's journey.
I suppose the bottom line is: I'd like to see an ME3 DLC specifically devoted to closure, though it deeply hurts me that such an ending wasn't included in the base game. I feel betrayed, Bioware, and in the future I will definitely hestitate before purchasing any of your products.
Modifié par KawaiiKatie, 17 mars 2012 - 05:24 .
#685
Posté 17 mars 2012 - 05:24
willdom
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- 11 messages
you know you have this lovely war asset thing why is the weapon a 1 button kill for the reapers?? there is this awesome map we should have to fight an take back every system. i mean never in the history of mankind as a battle been won with one move. That leaves a lot of room for politics to play out. the final battle should be ware Shep faces harbinger that would be epic. Online MP could use the ready rating to give you perks in the battle for each world like an air support. as you fight threw the battles do you stay who you are or do you sacrifice all to get there??
the trailer the photo realistic one that was better then the ending we got. the ending game play was just horde mode... no epic struggle fetch quests... don't get me wrong there are some epic stories being told like curing the genophage that battle at the end working to hit the hammers bruits every where reaper trying to step on you and thin you hit the final hammer... EPIC then comes the closer of the genophage you talk to Wrex and ask him what is he going to do now... now lets go to the Geth after the battle with the reaper Legion starts to up load the reaper code tali cant get the fleet to back off... EPIC
the whole thing seems like half of a game. the indoctrination theory is a way to finish the game and i think most people can except this out come. EPIC, this word should be on your mind the whole time... the citadel defense force... where are they?? they where part of my war assets but the reapers took that a way with out a fight??? there is no struggle you just give in at the end... i personally want to believe its a dream and he is still just sleeping in bed before the final mission.
the trailer the photo realistic one that was better then the ending we got. the ending game play was just horde mode... no epic struggle fetch quests... don't get me wrong there are some epic stories being told like curing the genophage that battle at the end working to hit the hammers bruits every where reaper trying to step on you and thin you hit the final hammer... EPIC then comes the closer of the genophage you talk to Wrex and ask him what is he going to do now... now lets go to the Geth after the battle with the reaper Legion starts to up load the reaper code tali cant get the fleet to back off... EPIC
the whole thing seems like half of a game. the indoctrination theory is a way to finish the game and i think most people can except this out come. EPIC, this word should be on your mind the whole time... the citadel defense force... where are they?? they where part of my war assets but the reapers took that a way with out a fight??? there is no struggle you just give in at the end... i personally want to believe its a dream and he is still just sleeping in bed before the final mission.
#686
Posté 17 mars 2012 - 05:25
martiancake
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- Members
- 175 messages
First I want to say that I utterly adored the first 95% of the game. It felt like a love letter to long time fans seeing all the old faces and finally seeing what happens with the krogan and the geth. All the squadmate conversations were wonderful, and I even ended up really liking Vega.
Perhaps it's because I loved it all right up till the end that made the end even more bewildering and abrupt. I felt ripped out of the story as a participant and forced into the observer role, when part of the main appeal of the series is you make the choices. You make a difference. You decide.
The ending lost me when I felt like nothing I had done in all the many (many!) hours I'd played all three games meant anything.
These are some specific points where the game lost me:
Perhaps it's because I loved it all right up till the end that made the end even more bewildering and abrupt. I felt ripped out of the story as a participant and forced into the observer role, when part of the main appeal of the series is you make the choices. You make a difference. You decide.
The ending lost me when I felt like nothing I had done in all the many (many!) hours I'd played all three games meant anything.
These are some specific points where the game lost me:
- The Catalyst. tbh, I didn't care for any aspect of the Catalyst. I didn't trust it, and I couldn't believe Shepard would. Shepard simply accepts everything the Catalyst says, and in the entire series Shepard never simply accepts. It felt like some cliched 'conversation with God', which is just ... totally out of place. I wanted to argue with it, to find the paragon/renegade option to refute its lies and deception--particularly since my Shepard not only made peace between the geth and quarians, but also witnessed her friend Legion make a very human self-sacrifice for his people, not to mention befriending EDI and encouraging her to persue a relationship with Joker. All hard evidence that the Catalyst's logic is deeply flawed. "All AIs = dangerous" is a worn trope. I liked that ME was resolving the organic/synthetic theme in a new way, up till the end.
- The ABC ending options. I'd been looking forward to the oft-mentioned '16 endings'. I imagined a spectrum of endings from Very Bad = you don't have the assets/support/you made bad decisions so the Reapers outright win, to Very Good and Almost Impossible to Get = you brought every single spacefaring society in the galaxy together and with your combined might and sheer awesomeness you spit right in Harbinger's big red eye. I wanted to see all my work play out in the end. And I thought we were close to it as I played--a worm took down a Reaper on Tuchanka. We found out their weak spot--the eye. We even took one down with one shot from a Cain in London.
- The three ending options are bewildering. Control and Synthesis are best represented by TIM and Saren (and frankly, the Collectors--no soul, replaced by tech). The Destroy option, the one you've had as your goal since the first game, is represented by your mentor, Anderson. Yet choosing that means comitting genocide against the geth (and murdering EDI) for apparently no particular reason. Why does killing the Reapers mean killing all synthetics? It just makes me mistrust the Catalyst even more, and so incredibly frustrated that Shepard can't argue or refuse.
- The Normandy crash. Why is Joker running away from the fight? If I recall, the order heard before Shepard enters the beam is for Hammer, the ground troops, to retreat and regroup. Not Sword, the air support. Joker would never run away from the fight. Then suddenly the people who were with you on the ground are now in the Normandy? I thought the entire squad was on the ground--you could talk to them before the final push (I really loved that part, btw. Cried a couple of times on that walk).
- What happens after? There are some really grim implications with the entire force of the galaxy stranded in the Sol system. Turians and quarians can't eat human food. It's too far to get home by FTL alone, as the codex says you have to discharge your drive frequently. This is all assuming the relays didn't destroy all systems they were in when they exploded (as the codex says they will, and as happened in Arrival). I want to see what happens to all the societies I worked so hard to bring together. As it is, I can get no joy out of replaying the game when I know it makes no difference for me to unite the quarians and geth since they'll all be dead anyway. Frankly, I don't really care about the next cycle. It's too emotionally removed. I was fighting for this cycle.
#687
Posté 17 mars 2012 - 05:25
Zix13
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- 1 839 messages
Thought I already posted here but couldn't find my response.
Basically, either overhaul everything after the harby beam or implement indoc theory. Indoc theory = less work since you just have to add on the actual ending. Either way, you need to decide how to actually end the game. That is where opinions are going to differ.
Here's a somewhat disorganized vision of my ending. Really just a bunch of things I expected or want to see:
What I'd like to see in an ending is something more cinematic driven. Cinematics that show which allies you recruited etc. I want to see the effect building my armies had, not just a number and not just something based on that number. As far as how to end it, well... Don't try to do anything artsy. It's an all out war, there's no place for child-shaped reapers or silly mechanisms for deciding the fate of the galaxy. Honestly why would a cold renegade shep care about one little kid dying a clean death, he's seen 3 planets fall apart since then. Way too much emphasis( UNLESS indoc theory is used) on the stupid kid. Needs to be some harbinger dialogue at some point and, not necessarily a "boss" battle, but a very intense combat bit right before pressing the "kill reapers" button. By button I mean a normal ME tech keyboard interface thing. Too simple and cheesy? Yes, but so are the symbolic and illogical mechanisms now. A button makes a lot more sense than shooting a tube, grabbing lightning or jumping into a green death ray. Besides there's no way to avoid it with the deus ex machina crucible. It kills reapers, no one knows how or why. Also mass relays should not be destroyed. That just made everything that happened up to that point seem absolutely useless. Galactic society collapses no matter what you do... *slow clap*. I know many people will disagree with me, but I want at least one way to save yourself and your squadmates. Anderson, previous squadmates etc. should die by the boatload, but the ones you actually fight with near the end? No. One of the reasons I think squad members should live is the fact that if you kill off some but not all chosing who to take with you on the final charge has an impact, which I don't really like. I like my fav companions to be with me at the end, but they're also not the ones I want to die. Furthermore, class diversity can be frustrating in these scenes. For example, shep cinematic: shep locked in combat with a bunch of husks, brute grabs garrus, kills garrus. Suppose shep is vanguard? Biotic charge, nova and problem solved. I HATE those scenes that neglect the possibility of shep being a biotic. Like where Kai Leng steals the prothean VI. You could just, you know, use pull on yourself, then climb up the cliff instantly. Or do the funny barrier sphere like all the other biotics can. If the only reason my squadmate died is because me shep is less capable in a cutscene than when I'm playing him then it is not a sad moment in the game, it's just frustrating and silly. I'd also prefer no limping sequence, simply because it's too slow and takes away the excitement. Also Crucible shouldn't kill husks and whatnot. Just reapers. At that point you can add a satisfying victory lap cinematic of the mop up and whatever epilogue stuff people want.
-edited for clarity-
Basically, either overhaul everything after the harby beam or implement indoc theory. Indoc theory = less work since you just have to add on the actual ending. Either way, you need to decide how to actually end the game. That is where opinions are going to differ.
Here's a somewhat disorganized vision of my ending. Really just a bunch of things I expected or want to see:
What I'd like to see in an ending is something more cinematic driven. Cinematics that show which allies you recruited etc. I want to see the effect building my armies had, not just a number and not just something based on that number. As far as how to end it, well... Don't try to do anything artsy. It's an all out war, there's no place for child-shaped reapers or silly mechanisms for deciding the fate of the galaxy. Honestly why would a cold renegade shep care about one little kid dying a clean death, he's seen 3 planets fall apart since then. Way too much emphasis( UNLESS indoc theory is used) on the stupid kid. Needs to be some harbinger dialogue at some point and, not necessarily a "boss" battle, but a very intense combat bit right before pressing the "kill reapers" button. By button I mean a normal ME tech keyboard interface thing. Too simple and cheesy? Yes, but so are the symbolic and illogical mechanisms now. A button makes a lot more sense than shooting a tube, grabbing lightning or jumping into a green death ray. Besides there's no way to avoid it with the deus ex machina crucible. It kills reapers, no one knows how or why. Also mass relays should not be destroyed. That just made everything that happened up to that point seem absolutely useless. Galactic society collapses no matter what you do... *slow clap*. I know many people will disagree with me, but I want at least one way to save yourself and your squadmates. Anderson, previous squadmates etc. should die by the boatload, but the ones you actually fight with near the end? No. One of the reasons I think squad members should live is the fact that if you kill off some but not all chosing who to take with you on the final charge has an impact, which I don't really like. I like my fav companions to be with me at the end, but they're also not the ones I want to die. Furthermore, class diversity can be frustrating in these scenes. For example, shep cinematic: shep locked in combat with a bunch of husks, brute grabs garrus, kills garrus. Suppose shep is vanguard? Biotic charge, nova and problem solved. I HATE those scenes that neglect the possibility of shep being a biotic. Like where Kai Leng steals the prothean VI. You could just, you know, use pull on yourself, then climb up the cliff instantly. Or do the funny barrier sphere like all the other biotics can. If the only reason my squadmate died is because me shep is less capable in a cutscene than when I'm playing him then it is not a sad moment in the game, it's just frustrating and silly. I'd also prefer no limping sequence, simply because it's too slow and takes away the excitement. Also Crucible shouldn't kill husks and whatnot. Just reapers. At that point you can add a satisfying victory lap cinematic of the mop up and whatever epilogue stuff people want.
-edited for clarity-
Modifié par Zix13, 17 mars 2012 - 05:43 .
#688
Guest_BrotherWarth_*
Posté 17 mars 2012 - 05:26
Guest_BrotherWarth_*
Guest_BrotherWarth_*
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I say ditch the entire space-God child giving you three choices thing. My idea isn't complex, but I think it would make people happier in the end.
When you get blasted by the Reaper, it doesn't knock you unconscious. This is
to avoid any "it was all a hallucination" or "you're just
indoctrinated" wiggle room. Instead you're just gravely hurt while one of
the 2 squadmates you took with you has died and the other is severely injured
and unconscious. Which is which is random. I know some fans would
complain, but it adds an emotional impact each time you play. So after you get
up and see your 2 squadmates, you shamble your way to the beam of light just
like before. But once you're in the Citadel things are different. You are there
alone. Anderson is not there with you. This is to give a sense that everyone
who has helped Shepard along the way did it for THIS moment, and this is the
moment Shepard lives up to their expectations.
So as Shepard arrives, he notices clean but entirely alien hallways(no dead bodies,
that makes no sense for this ending). The area is unlike anything else in the
Citadel and doesn't seem to have been created to be inhabited or traversed by life
as we know it. Shepard must make his way through a labrynthine maze of odd
corridors riddled with fatal drop-offs and steep inclines to climb. Once he
makes it through he sees the Illusive Man. He is attempting to use an interface
located on the center of a massive chamber, but cannot make sense of what he's
seeing. The language and presentation are so alien he's dumbfounded. As Shepard
approaches TIM turns around and reveals his hideously altered face. This is
where their conversation begins, but it's different than the one we saw in the
game. TIM is under the impression that he can control the Reapers, but believes
he must sacrifice his body to do so. He thinks that by existing as a purely
thought-based entity inside the conscious of the Reapers he can influence and
eventually control them, ending the Reaper menace. His ultimate goal is to use
the Reapers simply as vessels to further humanity's knowledge and travel beyond
our galaxy. You can talk him down from this, which leads to him shooting
himself in the head(yup, just like Saren). Or you can shoot him in the back
just as the Crucible is docking with the Citadel. If you do neither, he
attempts to use the interface again after the Crucible is docked and is hit
with massive amounts of information like a Prothean beacon, but much more
intense. It overloads his mind and leaves him braindead.
As TIM falls and Shepard examines him, the Crucible activates and the interface
bursts to life. The light takes a roughly humanoid shape, but is mostly just an
amalgam of light. As Shepard talks to the interface, it is revealed that this
is the representation of the creator of the Reapers, mass relays and
Citadel(just like the space-God child, but not a freakin child). It explains
that the Crucible is not a weapon and is in fact a communication device. This
entity explains that he is not of our perception or our universe. He is from an
alternate universe. One that is linked to ours through dark energy. While dark
energy is a destructive and mysterious force in our universe, it is the
building block of life and matter in the other. The dark energy in our universe
is their universe encroaching into ours. This was caused by a previous race in
our universe, many millions of years earlier, opening a window to their
universe. The window could not be completely closed, but the impact could be
minimized. It was decided in this other universe that because dark energy is
destructive to our universe that steps must be taken to protect us from
ourselves. As civilizations grow more advanced, their curiosity becomes more
dangerous and future races making the same mistake cannot be allowed. Thus the
Reapers were created. The entity explains this to you to make you understand
why the Reapers cannot stop, why the cycle cannot stop. But as we all know,
Shepard is the most persuasive mofo that ever was.
You are given the chance to make the entity see things from your perspective.
You tell the entity that you can make sure dark energy and the other universe
are never tampered with. The entity offers a solution. You give yourself over
to the Reapers' collective mind and act as a countermeasure or conscience,
making sure the Reapers only purge the galaxy as a last resort instead of every
50000 years.
If you accept this, you see Shepard go limp and collapse. Then cut to Earth as
all the Reapers are all leaving, returning to dark space. The galaxy can now
rebuild and still has access to the mass relays and citadel, so life can go on
much like before. If you cured the genophage you see the Krogan spread and wars
break out all over the galaxy to keep them in check. If you saved the Geth and
let them become wholly sentient you see many factions rise up within their
ranks and wars break out as Geth claim entire systems and increase their
numbers exponentially. If you saved the Rachni and cured the genophage you see
them aiding against the Krogan's spread.
However, if you reject this option and assert that the Reapers can be done away
with entirely you can make the entity agree to this, but only if your
reputation is SUPER HIGH. The entity tells you it can show you the likely
outcome of this. It gives Shepard a vision of dark energy flooding into our
universe through a tear in reality and causing widespread destruction that
eventually leads to the galaxy being destroyed entirely. You are then told that
if this happens it could consume our entire universe, essentially having their
universe replace ours. But this is merely the likely outcome. You are then
given the option once again: Give yourself over and be the Reaper's conscience,
or stop them entirely but likely doom the entire universe. It comes down to
free will and how highly you value it.
If you take the "I'll risk it" ending you are shown reuniting with
your crew/ love interest and helping to rebuild the galaxy and cautioning
against meddling with dark energy.
edit-- Not sure why that came out formatted all weird.
When you get blasted by the Reaper, it doesn't knock you unconscious. This is
to avoid any "it was all a hallucination" or "you're just
indoctrinated" wiggle room. Instead you're just gravely hurt while one of
the 2 squadmates you took with you has died and the other is severely injured
and unconscious. Which is which is random. I know some fans would
complain, but it adds an emotional impact each time you play. So after you get
up and see your 2 squadmates, you shamble your way to the beam of light just
like before. But once you're in the Citadel things are different. You are there
alone. Anderson is not there with you. This is to give a sense that everyone
who has helped Shepard along the way did it for THIS moment, and this is the
moment Shepard lives up to their expectations.
So as Shepard arrives, he notices clean but entirely alien hallways(no dead bodies,
that makes no sense for this ending). The area is unlike anything else in the
Citadel and doesn't seem to have been created to be inhabited or traversed by life
as we know it. Shepard must make his way through a labrynthine maze of odd
corridors riddled with fatal drop-offs and steep inclines to climb. Once he
makes it through he sees the Illusive Man. He is attempting to use an interface
located on the center of a massive chamber, but cannot make sense of what he's
seeing. The language and presentation are so alien he's dumbfounded. As Shepard
approaches TIM turns around and reveals his hideously altered face. This is
where their conversation begins, but it's different than the one we saw in the
game. TIM is under the impression that he can control the Reapers, but believes
he must sacrifice his body to do so. He thinks that by existing as a purely
thought-based entity inside the conscious of the Reapers he can influence and
eventually control them, ending the Reaper menace. His ultimate goal is to use
the Reapers simply as vessels to further humanity's knowledge and travel beyond
our galaxy. You can talk him down from this, which leads to him shooting
himself in the head(yup, just like Saren). Or you can shoot him in the back
just as the Crucible is docking with the Citadel. If you do neither, he
attempts to use the interface again after the Crucible is docked and is hit
with massive amounts of information like a Prothean beacon, but much more
intense. It overloads his mind and leaves him braindead.
As TIM falls and Shepard examines him, the Crucible activates and the interface
bursts to life. The light takes a roughly humanoid shape, but is mostly just an
amalgam of light. As Shepard talks to the interface, it is revealed that this
is the representation of the creator of the Reapers, mass relays and
Citadel(just like the space-God child, but not a freakin child). It explains
that the Crucible is not a weapon and is in fact a communication device. This
entity explains that he is not of our perception or our universe. He is from an
alternate universe. One that is linked to ours through dark energy. While dark
energy is a destructive and mysterious force in our universe, it is the
building block of life and matter in the other. The dark energy in our universe
is their universe encroaching into ours. This was caused by a previous race in
our universe, many millions of years earlier, opening a window to their
universe. The window could not be completely closed, but the impact could be
minimized. It was decided in this other universe that because dark energy is
destructive to our universe that steps must be taken to protect us from
ourselves. As civilizations grow more advanced, their curiosity becomes more
dangerous and future races making the same mistake cannot be allowed. Thus the
Reapers were created. The entity explains this to you to make you understand
why the Reapers cannot stop, why the cycle cannot stop. But as we all know,
Shepard is the most persuasive mofo that ever was.
You are given the chance to make the entity see things from your perspective.
You tell the entity that you can make sure dark energy and the other universe
are never tampered with. The entity offers a solution. You give yourself over
to the Reapers' collective mind and act as a countermeasure or conscience,
making sure the Reapers only purge the galaxy as a last resort instead of every
50000 years.
If you accept this, you see Shepard go limp and collapse. Then cut to Earth as
all the Reapers are all leaving, returning to dark space. The galaxy can now
rebuild and still has access to the mass relays and citadel, so life can go on
much like before. If you cured the genophage you see the Krogan spread and wars
break out all over the galaxy to keep them in check. If you saved the Geth and
let them become wholly sentient you see many factions rise up within their
ranks and wars break out as Geth claim entire systems and increase their
numbers exponentially. If you saved the Rachni and cured the genophage you see
them aiding against the Krogan's spread.
However, if you reject this option and assert that the Reapers can be done away
with entirely you can make the entity agree to this, but only if your
reputation is SUPER HIGH. The entity tells you it can show you the likely
outcome of this. It gives Shepard a vision of dark energy flooding into our
universe through a tear in reality and causing widespread destruction that
eventually leads to the galaxy being destroyed entirely. You are then told that
if this happens it could consume our entire universe, essentially having their
universe replace ours. But this is merely the likely outcome. You are then
given the option once again: Give yourself over and be the Reaper's conscience,
or stop them entirely but likely doom the entire universe. It comes down to
free will and how highly you value it.
If you take the "I'll risk it" ending you are shown reuniting with
your crew/ love interest and helping to rebuild the galaxy and cautioning
against meddling with dark energy.
edit-- Not sure why that came out formatted all weird.
Modifié par BrotherWarth, 17 mars 2012 - 05:27 .
#689
Posté 17 mars 2012 - 05:26
TheShadowWolf911
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- 1 133 messages
also can we have this.......Marauder Shields survive somehow?
i'm half joking, but if you guys are up for it......(although i was serious with my last post.....or posts, i forget how many i made on this topic)
i'm half joking, but if you guys are up for it......(although i was serious with my last post.....or posts, i forget how many i made on this topic)
#690
Posté 17 mars 2012 - 05:26
cinderburster
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- 444 messages
Since I'm too tired to write out everything I want to say and other people have done it more eloquently and coherently than I can: social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/355/index/9851623
I respect the ME3 dev team. I get what you guys were trying to do. It just didn't quite work.
Read that thread, guys, if you haven't already. It will be vastly helpful in your search for coherent, helpful data.
I respect the ME3 dev team. I get what you guys were trying to do. It just didn't quite work.
Read that thread, guys, if you haven't already. It will be vastly helpful in your search for coherent, helpful data.
#691
Posté 17 mars 2012 - 05:26
Cro730
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- Members
- 1 215 messages
I share a similar passion.iwillkillfortali wrote...
Give me a Shepard and Tali marriage clip as well as the ability to build her home and I will buy every
new game you will ever make.
#692
Posté 17 mars 2012 - 05:26
Godlysnack
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- 285 messages
Endings aside.. I'd like to see some of the ME2 romances shelled out more.. Barely anything was done for Jack and that was my favorite of ME2 
#693
Posté 17 mars 2012 - 05:27
Nobrandminda
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- 1 289 messages
- Make War Assets matter. There is no clear connection between gathering War Assets and the options presented by the Catalyst. If War Assets are going to matter, show us why they matter. Make the final push for the tower easier or harder based on war assets. As I understand it having a low EMS gets your squad killed. If this is the case, make it obvious. Most people only notice if they turn around and are able to make out the body. Unlock additional options for the player with a high enough War Asset threshhold, and make sure there's a logical connection between the two.
- Let Shepard question the Catalyst. Why is it giving us these options? Why these options specifically? What exactly was Sovereign doing if it needed to start the Reaper fleet?
- Give Shepard the option to say "No" to the Catalyst. I don't know about you, but my Shepard rebelled against the idea of the inevitable war between synthetics and organics at every turn. From bringing peace to the quarians and the geth, to arguing with Javik, to playing matchmaker with EDI and Joker, he has always tried to bring peace between them. So the idea that my Shepard was forced to do anything because Organics and Synthetics must kill each other is especially jarring. Maybe make this a high risk, high reward option where anything short of an abserdly high EMS results in a heartbreakingly bad ending.
- Give the Catalyst a different appearance. No offence, but you guys really overestimated our (the audience's) emotional attachment to that kid.
- If Shepard's going to live, commit to it. Show us something to give us reason to believe that he's going to see his crew again. Or for that matter, just show him with his crew again. The current "Shepard lives" ending leaves him on Earth, the Normandy in God knows where, and no clear indication that either one of them is in any shape to get anywhere.
- If Shepard dies, we want to see his crew react to that. Mass Effect is first and foremost a character driven story. We get some slight idea of how the galaxy reacts to Shepard's sacrifice from the Stargazer clip. But we don't care about that. We care about how Garrus, Liara, and Tali react to Shepard dying. Shortly before the final mission, Diana Allers promises that she will make sure Shepard gets, "...a Bekenstein wake. It's like an Irish wake, only less sober and reserved." That would be a good start.
- Show more aftermath, at least show enough so we can stop worrying about an "Endor Holocaust." There are a lot of great "what's next" questions that stem from the endings. What will the Krogan do? What will the Quarians/Geth do? How will galactic civilization cope without the Mass Relays? How will [the player's choice at the catalyst] affect galactic civilization? The problem is none of those questions matter when the ending makes you think that the Mass Relays went supernova, or the Citadel exploding resulted in an extinction event on earth, or every spaceship was damaged beyond repair by the Crucible like the Normandy was, or the crew of the Normandy is going to starve to death on an alien planet. If you want to leave most of the consequences up to our imagination, I can respect that, but at the very least, show enough of an epilogue to make it clear that some of the characters we care about survived past the credit reel.
- Let Shepard question the Catalyst. Why is it giving us these options? Why these options specifically? What exactly was Sovereign doing if it needed to start the Reaper fleet?
- Give Shepard the option to say "No" to the Catalyst. I don't know about you, but my Shepard rebelled against the idea of the inevitable war between synthetics and organics at every turn. From bringing peace to the quarians and the geth, to arguing with Javik, to playing matchmaker with EDI and Joker, he has always tried to bring peace between them. So the idea that my Shepard was forced to do anything because Organics and Synthetics must kill each other is especially jarring. Maybe make this a high risk, high reward option where anything short of an abserdly high EMS results in a heartbreakingly bad ending.
- Give the Catalyst a different appearance. No offence, but you guys really overestimated our (the audience's) emotional attachment to that kid.
- If Shepard's going to live, commit to it. Show us something to give us reason to believe that he's going to see his crew again. Or for that matter, just show him with his crew again. The current "Shepard lives" ending leaves him on Earth, the Normandy in God knows where, and no clear indication that either one of them is in any shape to get anywhere.
- If Shepard dies, we want to see his crew react to that. Mass Effect is first and foremost a character driven story. We get some slight idea of how the galaxy reacts to Shepard's sacrifice from the Stargazer clip. But we don't care about that. We care about how Garrus, Liara, and Tali react to Shepard dying. Shortly before the final mission, Diana Allers promises that she will make sure Shepard gets, "...a Bekenstein wake. It's like an Irish wake, only less sober and reserved." That would be a good start.
- Show more aftermath, at least show enough so we can stop worrying about an "Endor Holocaust." There are a lot of great "what's next" questions that stem from the endings. What will the Krogan do? What will the Quarians/Geth do? How will galactic civilization cope without the Mass Relays? How will [the player's choice at the catalyst] affect galactic civilization? The problem is none of those questions matter when the ending makes you think that the Mass Relays went supernova, or the Citadel exploding resulted in an extinction event on earth, or every spaceship was damaged beyond repair by the Crucible like the Normandy was, or the crew of the Normandy is going to starve to death on an alien planet. If you want to leave most of the consequences up to our imagination, I can respect that, but at the very least, show enough of an epilogue to make it clear that some of the characters we care about survived past the credit reel.
Modifié par Nobrandminda, 17 mars 2012 - 05:34 .
#694
Posté 17 mars 2012 - 05:27
Punahedan
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- 421 messages
Alright. This is all the encouragement I need. I would like to state that Jessica has been extremely positive throughout all this, and that has encouraged me to hope that even if nothing can be done about ME3 now, our desires will be taken into account in future games. 
While I mind the endings a lot less now, I still think they're not indicative of good writing. We spend three games treating it like the space version of World War II, and then it suddenly becomes Franz Kafka. It either needs to have more "structural" support in terms of the story (since we've been hinted that the GodBrat can't be trusted, I'll assume the indoctrination theory has merit), or it can't end on that note.
This is not because it's not sunshine and daisies, or it's not victorious; god knows anyone that is a fan of BioWare never walks into a game expecting pure victory. There's always bittersweetness. But that's the thing - there was no bittersweet. It wasn't even bitter. And unless someone is looking on the forums or watching the videos, it can be hard to put together what we are actually seeing in these endings. When your players can't put together the order of events even when they see it, that's not a good sign. As each of my classmates finished the game, they all walked in confused as all hell. Indoctrination never even occurred to them. Sometimes you need to assume we're obtuse and hit us in the face with information and supplementary data.
Furthermore, the ending was not satisfying because it was not a conclusion to the series. We were not sent to stop the indoctrination process. We vowed to stop the Reapers. The battle in Shepard's mind should be present. It is very impactful and brings us closer to our character. But that does not conclude the story arc of battling the Reapers. It's like cutting a story off at a denouement.
Aside from being inconclusive, the transition between reality and the final scenes is very jarring. We went from a very high-energy, intense combat sequence to this slow-paced, low-energy discussion sequence. Shepard walks slowly, Shepard is talking or beign talked to almost constantly. This is very sudden and there is no transition. THe sudden drop in activity doesn't give the player time to process everything, especially since the player is (speaking from personal experience) very heavily wrapped up in what's going on and is not likely to pause at all to examine his or her environment. This is not true of everyone, but I think it'd be true for most people.
Next, we all agree that it's a very touching, emotional, deep game. Not a book... a game. That means we are limited to what we can see and what we can hear. Not everyone will pay attention to the same things. Again, sometimes you need to hit us in the face with information. Subtle details are all well and good, but they need to support the more obvious things. By the end, we should see those obvious things. We are not reading a book, so we do not have the benefit of a narrator. Nor are we watching a movie, in which the director has the camera pan to what we need to see. It works out, visually, very well, but there was not sufficient dialogue with GodBrat.
It sounds like you wanted to distill the most important information... but ultimately, we decide what information is most important to us and what helps us make our choices. Shepard does a lot of autodialogue. In the rest of the game, this is acceptable because there is a lot of good content in it. Sound and silence are well-balanced. Shepard is forward. In this sequence, Shepard is very passive and just lets the GodBrat talk at him/her. THe things Shepard asks and contributes to the conversation... are not much. We needed a dialogue wheel. We needed to be able to ask. That would have helped us find flaws in the logic of the GodBrat and help us decide what is a better path for our Shepard.
And from a roleplaying perspective... it did boil down to A, B, and C, and even that's a little debatable. There were so many ways in which the assault on the Reapers could go wrong. Simplifying it to those three basic choices seems like a missed opportunity to emotionally abuse us some more.
But, unfortunately, it also was a very poor representation of the advantages of an RPG. There are very rarely wronganswers to an an RPG, and gifting the Destroy ending with Shepard inhaling, a hint of what's actually going on, is like telling everyone who chose the other endings that they chose wrongly. The endings are not sufficiently different, so the addition of an extra scene, the scene in which Shepard inhales, to one ending makes the others feel like "wrong" decisions. It's a case of everyone getting cake with icing. The third kid gets the icing in the shape of a rose on top. It doesn't particularly change the flavor, but it's something the others don't get, and it adds a magic to your piece of cake. Not that the cake was particularly delicious in the first place, but it's 6 of one and half a dozen of the other.
As a note, it also seemed unnecessary to add the relays being destroyed and the Normandy crashing to the Destroy ending. Absence is just as important as presence. The absence of that would have clued us into whatever it was you wanted us to find out. Though I would again say that each ending-cutscene representation should have been more different to avoid making it seem like there is "right" and "wrong."
Finally, the child and the grandfather was unnecessary. It didn't just not add anything - I would say it took away. Our deeds are trivialized to stories some unknown descendent of the Normandy's crew (which would be insufficient to sustain a population...). And we're "The Shepard." We didn't shepherd anyone to Gilligan's Planet. It's a misnomer, almost, to imply that the residents of the Normandy are grateful to have crashed.
All in all, it simply doesn't hold a strong enough tie to the people we were waiting to see - our armies. Hackett.
I will say that the scene with Anderson was touching. He was something of a father to us, and the combination of music and voice acting made the scene powerful and bittersweet. Which is exactly what a BioWare game represents. Had the game ended right there, or even just after Hackett calls Shepard to find out why the Crucible isn't firing and Shepard collapses (lower EMS, perhaps?), I think that would have had us crying.
I understand the need to leave us guessing on a few things, but it should never be the result of the main quest. The resolution to the main quest should leave feelings behind, not questions. Everything else is, I would say, fair game. IE, the implications of the result can vary, but the result itself must remain unblemished.
As I'm sure many have said... it's really when the platform raises that things get wonky and the ending loses steam. Everything up to that point is a goldmine of emotion and action-reaction, everything an RPG should be. And it's really the little things that make it great - the crew making us laugh, the stories of the people on the Citadel (The PTSD asari is chilling, especially when you start to connect the dots when Joker mentions his sister), and seeing how far our former squadmates have come on their own. Jack comes to mind - her decision to teach is her own. Perhaps Shepard encouraged the idea, but it ultimately was her choice. The big decisions are equally satisfying, but they have to be. The rest of the game didn't, but it was, and that's what put ME3 above both of the games before it.
The combat, too, was fun and fast-paced, and the guns more interesting. Didn't care much for the armor.
And I hope in the future, there can be better communication between the development team and the fanbase. With all due respect, marketing confuses our expectations. Marketing and PR is for the people that are not yet your fanbase; the fanbase is a different breed, a breed where classical BioWare traits produce more cheer than an appeal to our cinematic and hipster sensibilities.
Because that's really what the ending was.
A hipster.
While I mind the endings a lot less now, I still think they're not indicative of good writing. We spend three games treating it like the space version of World War II, and then it suddenly becomes Franz Kafka. It either needs to have more "structural" support in terms of the story (since we've been hinted that the GodBrat can't be trusted, I'll assume the indoctrination theory has merit), or it can't end on that note.
This is not because it's not sunshine and daisies, or it's not victorious; god knows anyone that is a fan of BioWare never walks into a game expecting pure victory. There's always bittersweetness. But that's the thing - there was no bittersweet. It wasn't even bitter. And unless someone is looking on the forums or watching the videos, it can be hard to put together what we are actually seeing in these endings. When your players can't put together the order of events even when they see it, that's not a good sign. As each of my classmates finished the game, they all walked in confused as all hell. Indoctrination never even occurred to them. Sometimes you need to assume we're obtuse and hit us in the face with information and supplementary data.
Furthermore, the ending was not satisfying because it was not a conclusion to the series. We were not sent to stop the indoctrination process. We vowed to stop the Reapers. The battle in Shepard's mind should be present. It is very impactful and brings us closer to our character. But that does not conclude the story arc of battling the Reapers. It's like cutting a story off at a denouement.
Aside from being inconclusive, the transition between reality and the final scenes is very jarring. We went from a very high-energy, intense combat sequence to this slow-paced, low-energy discussion sequence. Shepard walks slowly, Shepard is talking or beign talked to almost constantly. This is very sudden and there is no transition. THe sudden drop in activity doesn't give the player time to process everything, especially since the player is (speaking from personal experience) very heavily wrapped up in what's going on and is not likely to pause at all to examine his or her environment. This is not true of everyone, but I think it'd be true for most people.
Next, we all agree that it's a very touching, emotional, deep game. Not a book... a game. That means we are limited to what we can see and what we can hear. Not everyone will pay attention to the same things. Again, sometimes you need to hit us in the face with information. Subtle details are all well and good, but they need to support the more obvious things. By the end, we should see those obvious things. We are not reading a book, so we do not have the benefit of a narrator. Nor are we watching a movie, in which the director has the camera pan to what we need to see. It works out, visually, very well, but there was not sufficient dialogue with GodBrat.
It sounds like you wanted to distill the most important information... but ultimately, we decide what information is most important to us and what helps us make our choices. Shepard does a lot of autodialogue. In the rest of the game, this is acceptable because there is a lot of good content in it. Sound and silence are well-balanced. Shepard is forward. In this sequence, Shepard is very passive and just lets the GodBrat talk at him/her. THe things Shepard asks and contributes to the conversation... are not much. We needed a dialogue wheel. We needed to be able to ask. That would have helped us find flaws in the logic of the GodBrat and help us decide what is a better path for our Shepard.
And from a roleplaying perspective... it did boil down to A, B, and C, and even that's a little debatable. There were so many ways in which the assault on the Reapers could go wrong. Simplifying it to those three basic choices seems like a missed opportunity to emotionally abuse us some more.
But, unfortunately, it also was a very poor representation of the advantages of an RPG. There are very rarely wronganswers to an an RPG, and gifting the Destroy ending with Shepard inhaling, a hint of what's actually going on, is like telling everyone who chose the other endings that they chose wrongly. The endings are not sufficiently different, so the addition of an extra scene, the scene in which Shepard inhales, to one ending makes the others feel like "wrong" decisions. It's a case of everyone getting cake with icing. The third kid gets the icing in the shape of a rose on top. It doesn't particularly change the flavor, but it's something the others don't get, and it adds a magic to your piece of cake. Not that the cake was particularly delicious in the first place, but it's 6 of one and half a dozen of the other.
As a note, it also seemed unnecessary to add the relays being destroyed and the Normandy crashing to the Destroy ending. Absence is just as important as presence. The absence of that would have clued us into whatever it was you wanted us to find out. Though I would again say that each ending-cutscene representation should have been more different to avoid making it seem like there is "right" and "wrong."
Finally, the child and the grandfather was unnecessary. It didn't just not add anything - I would say it took away. Our deeds are trivialized to stories some unknown descendent of the Normandy's crew (which would be insufficient to sustain a population...). And we're "The Shepard." We didn't shepherd anyone to Gilligan's Planet. It's a misnomer, almost, to imply that the residents of the Normandy are grateful to have crashed.
All in all, it simply doesn't hold a strong enough tie to the people we were waiting to see - our armies. Hackett.
I will say that the scene with Anderson was touching. He was something of a father to us, and the combination of music and voice acting made the scene powerful and bittersweet. Which is exactly what a BioWare game represents. Had the game ended right there, or even just after Hackett calls Shepard to find out why the Crucible isn't firing and Shepard collapses (lower EMS, perhaps?), I think that would have had us crying.
I understand the need to leave us guessing on a few things, but it should never be the result of the main quest. The resolution to the main quest should leave feelings behind, not questions. Everything else is, I would say, fair game. IE, the implications of the result can vary, but the result itself must remain unblemished.
As I'm sure many have said... it's really when the platform raises that things get wonky and the ending loses steam. Everything up to that point is a goldmine of emotion and action-reaction, everything an RPG should be. And it's really the little things that make it great - the crew making us laugh, the stories of the people on the Citadel (The PTSD asari is chilling, especially when you start to connect the dots when Joker mentions his sister), and seeing how far our former squadmates have come on their own. Jack comes to mind - her decision to teach is her own. Perhaps Shepard encouraged the idea, but it ultimately was her choice. The big decisions are equally satisfying, but they have to be. The rest of the game didn't, but it was, and that's what put ME3 above both of the games before it.
The combat, too, was fun and fast-paced, and the guns more interesting. Didn't care much for the armor.
And I hope in the future, there can be better communication between the development team and the fanbase. With all due respect, marketing confuses our expectations. Marketing and PR is for the people that are not yet your fanbase; the fanbase is a different breed, a breed where classical BioWare traits produce more cheer than an appeal to our cinematic and hipster sensibilities.
Because that's really what the ending was.
A hipster.
#695
Posté 17 mars 2012 - 05:27
Militarized
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- Members
- 2 549 messages
Take the Indoctrination theory we came up with... RUN WITH IT. RUN LIKE THE WIND WITH IT.
Many of us are hurting over the ending of Mass Effect 3 and the plot devices thrown in at the very last moment. With all the talk about how ME3 should have ended, I am going to give my ideas on it
How Mass Effect 3 was sold to us
What Should have happened
How it could be accomplished lore wise
Mass Effect 3 was sold to us as end of an epic battle. "Take back earth!" "Fight for humanity!" Obvious sources include -
You CAN chalk this up to simply good marketing, but I am simply saying that it sets the precedent of them breaking the reader-writer contract by selling us the story in THAT fashion and holding true to it till the end. Where it is then flipped on it's head. Revelations and bittersweet ends are good, in proper context, but Mass Effect 3's revelation at the end does not fit, it is obviously forced and shoehorned in. A better example of a revelation is Halo(I know.. bear with me). The original Halo trailer PREPARES you for this idea.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ZxDrAci0hc&feature=fvst
See the marked difference between how they present the Chief and his potential goal and hints at the story/mystery?
This brings me to my main point. The Catalyst should not be a story changing plot device, it should be what it obviously is from the start.. a weapon. The Catalyst should have simply been something that brings the Reaper shields down while the battle is going on, making the Reapers extra vulnerable and actually quite easy to defeat. Easily explained by their shields having a different shield signature or some other hokey tech jumbo.
The immediate response to this idea is "But the Reapers are undefeatable!!!!" I hold that as patently false and here is my analysis of why it is possible to defeat them in the space battle we see.
The Reapers main weapon is surprise, they caught the Protheans off guard and destroyed their central leadership of an Empire(most Empires don't run well if you assassinate the leader). They took control of the Relays by having the Citadel right away, cutting off systems from each other and taking them down one by one on a galactic scale. Javik himself says they fought a war of attrition, planet by planet.
This is NOT what our cycle did. Except fighting for main homeworlds, humans especially, abandoned our planets... we evacuated as many people as possible and regrouped. From what I understand we did something unprecedented and marshelled an overwhelming response.. the Reapers are tough yes but no where near invincible and in the Codex it states the smaller destroyers make up MOST of the fleet. The Quarians kill one while from quite a large distance in 3-4 hits... and they're not even using the new Thanix cannons that are on all the Turian/Human/etc ships.
Now... in ME3, earlier in the game we see the Turians fighting the Reapers and it is actually said IN GAME that they are holding their own against the Reapers at the entrance to their system. The problem arrives when the Reapers FTL past them down onto the planet, they appear to break their fleet up into smaller contingents that leave them open to the Reapers advantages.
This culminates to my conclusion that I think it would be possible to defeat the Reapers in combat at the end of the game, or at the very least do hhuuggee amounts of damage till the Crucible fires and makes them entirely legitimately vulnerable, without shields the Normandy punched a giant hole through Soverieng in one hit and this was before the Thannix cannons were established as common place equipment on all Turian/Human,etc,etc ships.
So... the ending should have ended with a cut scene not disimilar to the BEGINING of Mass Effect 2, simply in reverse. After you set off the Crucible the cinematic plays out based on what assessets you have gathered, what your effective EMS score and so on and so. This easily allows for the 16 variable endings that everyone was hoping for, with Renegade choices possibly securing human dominance and Paragon a united front against the Reapers.
This is what I think the game should have ended like and this is why all the assessets should have mattered. Organics uniting, a bold new strategy out of desperation and it should have been represented as such.. If you have enough assessets you can win, if you don't you fail. Obviously you can produce a lot of variable endings out of that... specific fleets/races get annihilated due to not enough assessets in their "accounts", renegade options being saboting Alien fleets at the end if you look like you can achieve victory to secure human dominance or something of another.
That's my basic idea, Mass Effect 2 ending WORKED. You only have to do it IN REVERSE or just simply follow THAT CONCEPT. If you had followed the idea of Mass Effect 2, we would not be in this mess. PLEASE LISTEN TO US.
Many of us are hurting over the ending of Mass Effect 3 and the plot devices thrown in at the very last moment. With all the talk about how ME3 should have ended, I am going to give my ideas on it
How Mass Effect 3 was sold to us
What Should have happened
How it could be accomplished lore wise
Mass Effect 3 was sold to us as end of an epic battle. "Take back earth!" "Fight for humanity!" Obvious sources include -
You CAN chalk this up to simply good marketing, but I am simply saying that it sets the precedent of them breaking the reader-writer contract by selling us the story in THAT fashion and holding true to it till the end. Where it is then flipped on it's head. Revelations and bittersweet ends are good, in proper context, but Mass Effect 3's revelation at the end does not fit, it is obviously forced and shoehorned in. A better example of a revelation is Halo(I know.. bear with me). The original Halo trailer PREPARES you for this idea.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ZxDrAci0hc&feature=fvst
See the marked difference between how they present the Chief and his potential goal and hints at the story/mystery?
This brings me to my main point. The Catalyst should not be a story changing plot device, it should be what it obviously is from the start.. a weapon. The Catalyst should have simply been something that brings the Reaper shields down while the battle is going on, making the Reapers extra vulnerable and actually quite easy to defeat. Easily explained by their shields having a different shield signature or some other hokey tech jumbo.
The immediate response to this idea is "But the Reapers are undefeatable!!!!" I hold that as patently false and here is my analysis of why it is possible to defeat them in the space battle we see.
The Reapers main weapon is surprise, they caught the Protheans off guard and destroyed their central leadership of an Empire(most Empires don't run well if you assassinate the leader). They took control of the Relays by having the Citadel right away, cutting off systems from each other and taking them down one by one on a galactic scale. Javik himself says they fought a war of attrition, planet by planet.
This is NOT what our cycle did. Except fighting for main homeworlds, humans especially, abandoned our planets... we evacuated as many people as possible and regrouped. From what I understand we did something unprecedented and marshelled an overwhelming response.. the Reapers are tough yes but no where near invincible and in the Codex it states the smaller destroyers make up MOST of the fleet. The Quarians kill one while from quite a large distance in 3-4 hits... and they're not even using the new Thanix cannons that are on all the Turian/Human/etc ships.
Now... in ME3, earlier in the game we see the Turians fighting the Reapers and it is actually said IN GAME that they are holding their own against the Reapers at the entrance to their system. The problem arrives when the Reapers FTL past them down onto the planet, they appear to break their fleet up into smaller contingents that leave them open to the Reapers advantages.
This culminates to my conclusion that I think it would be possible to defeat the Reapers in combat at the end of the game, or at the very least do hhuuggee amounts of damage till the Crucible fires and makes them entirely legitimately vulnerable, without shields the Normandy punched a giant hole through Soverieng in one hit and this was before the Thannix cannons were established as common place equipment on all Turian/Human,etc,etc ships.
So... the ending should have ended with a cut scene not disimilar to the BEGINING of Mass Effect 2, simply in reverse. After you set off the Crucible the cinematic plays out based on what assessets you have gathered, what your effective EMS score and so on and so. This easily allows for the 16 variable endings that everyone was hoping for, with Renegade choices possibly securing human dominance and Paragon a united front against the Reapers.
This is what I think the game should have ended like and this is why all the assessets should have mattered. Organics uniting, a bold new strategy out of desperation and it should have been represented as such.. If you have enough assessets you can win, if you don't you fail. Obviously you can produce a lot of variable endings out of that... specific fleets/races get annihilated due to not enough assessets in their "accounts", renegade options being saboting Alien fleets at the end if you look like you can achieve victory to secure human dominance or something of another.
That's my basic idea, Mass Effect 2 ending WORKED. You only have to do it IN REVERSE or just simply follow THAT CONCEPT. If you had followed the idea of Mass Effect 2, we would not be in this mess. PLEASE LISTEN TO US.
Modifié par Militarized, 17 mars 2012 - 05:29 .
#696
Posté 17 mars 2012 - 05:27
Esker02
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If the indoctrination business is ever, at any point, seriously being considered, please listen to this individual. Its origins are in the desperate hopes of fans, the linkage looks nice in a video but there's a reason we all came away upset and not thinking "oh wow I can't believe Shep didn't wake up from that indoctrination!" It's because the links are tenuous at best, and really require that lens of desperation to see. If you really want to go back with a fine-toothed comb and make the game lead up to that, by all means, but the simpler solution is to work with everything post-Anderson.awilkin wrote...
Also, I just want to say that directly using the indoctrination theory is a bad idea. It'd feel like a cheap out ("Surprise! All that didn't really happen! We're cool now, right?"). People have just become attached to it because it's the only way to make sense of the nonsensical ending. Personally, I'd favor a rewrite starting at the end of Anderson's scene.
That said, the concept of Shepard having to fight off an indoctrination attempt is kind of neat. I just don't think the current ending scenes really play that scenario out very well. There are too many tenuous connections you have to make. Maybe a few embellishments would make the current ending fit the theory better without making it too obvious.
Because that's something most people will say. Even though we didn't really like the ending, the Illusive Man scene and the Anderson dialogue following it were actually very well done and impactful. Most people get caught up in hating "the ending" generally, meaning everything post-Harbinger beam, and don't really pay that scene the respect it deserves.
(Also, +1 to see a happy ending with Tali)
#697
Posté 17 mars 2012 - 05:27
Whybother
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0. Make an announcement saying you understand that the ending was unsatisfying and that you are working on a new one, which will be free.
1. Put Casey and Mac in a corner, they wrote the ending that people don't like. Let them sit this one out and work on DLC or something.
2. Get the writers who worked on the two main thematic plots of the game - the Krogan arc and the Quarian-Geth arc - to work on the possible endings. It should be possible for Shepard to *lose* and "fling a light into the future" (Liara's beacon found by future race), and it should be possible for Shepard to have an epic win (yes, including ending the game with LI), depending on game choices and resources. But the writers have to figure out the specifics.
3. As soon as writers have the endings mapped out, get the Codex writers to work on epilogues. This needs to ship fast, text a la "Dragon Age Origins" is fine.
4. Pull the static image artists to work on the epilogue art, get the cutscene artists working on the cutscenes for the various levels of defeat/victory.
5. Make the War Assets matter. If you have Geth and Quarian forces, have a short clip of them fighting together. Same with Krogan and Turian. Maybe even some Cerberus forces if we did those missions. It doesn't have to be a lot, but *show us* that our decisions during the game mattered.
6. Get someone who knows what they are doing to run the show.
1. Put Casey and Mac in a corner, they wrote the ending that people don't like. Let them sit this one out and work on DLC or something.
2. Get the writers who worked on the two main thematic plots of the game - the Krogan arc and the Quarian-Geth arc - to work on the possible endings. It should be possible for Shepard to *lose* and "fling a light into the future" (Liara's beacon found by future race), and it should be possible for Shepard to have an epic win (yes, including ending the game with LI), depending on game choices and resources. But the writers have to figure out the specifics.
3. As soon as writers have the endings mapped out, get the Codex writers to work on epilogues. This needs to ship fast, text a la "Dragon Age Origins" is fine.
4. Pull the static image artists to work on the epilogue art, get the cutscene artists working on the cutscenes for the various levels of defeat/victory.
5. Make the War Assets matter. If you have Geth and Quarian forces, have a short clip of them fighting together. Same with Krogan and Turian. Maybe even some Cerberus forces if we did those missions. It doesn't have to be a lot, but *show us* that our decisions during the game mattered.
6. Get someone who knows what they are doing to run the show.
Modifié par Whybother, 17 mars 2012 - 05:36 .
#698
Posté 17 mars 2012 - 05:28
Rosery99
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- 347 messages
1. A happy ending now I know a lot of people don't want this but a lot of us do, I want to see my Shepard finally settle down with Liara and have those blue kids of hers, I want to see the Univerese rebuilding after nearly being obliterated even if the relays are gone. Or building a house with Tali/Garrus whoever you romanced. I want to see the companions who survived it going about there lives. It's a GAME more than that it's a fantasy sci-fi epic, we have enough **** in real life, your own lead writer from DA:O said as much, give us the heroic ending we ache for.
2. Bitter sweet is nice, so is happy, so is sad sometimes. Vary the endings, not various shades of the same color which is what we have now.
3. Remove the bloody ghost kid and bring back Harbinger, give us a true final boss battle against him, like you did on Rannoch, give us our final confrontation with the big bad mother of all reapers, give us that epic dialouge, you showed you could do in ME2 and the Arrival DLC.
4. Closure, the ending make sense and being able to get galatic readiness some other way would be really nice but thats being nit-picky at this point.
5. Look up the Indoctrination theory on this forum and build off of it because it is an excellent theory and we all think it's awesome for the most part. Wish I could be more conclusive...but thinking about the endings depresses me, so I will let my fellow companions of the movement handle the details.
Hold The Line!
~R
2. Bitter sweet is nice, so is happy, so is sad sometimes. Vary the endings, not various shades of the same color which is what we have now.
3. Remove the bloody ghost kid and bring back Harbinger, give us a true final boss battle against him, like you did on Rannoch, give us our final confrontation with the big bad mother of all reapers, give us that epic dialouge, you showed you could do in ME2 and the Arrival DLC.
4. Closure, the ending make sense and being able to get galatic readiness some other way would be really nice but thats being nit-picky at this point.
5. Look up the Indoctrination theory on this forum and build off of it because it is an excellent theory and we all think it's awesome for the most part. Wish I could be more conclusive...but thinking about the endings depresses me, so I will let my fellow companions of the movement handle the details.
Hold The Line!
~R
#699
Posté 17 mars 2012 - 05:28
ElvishPenguin
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I haven't been very vocal about this because I'm normally a very quiet person, including on forums, but I definitely support a rewritten/expanded ending. I'm sure it's been said to death, but use the indoctrination theory. As a writer, I found that interpretation absolutely brilliant. Have Shepard wake up near the beam, and have whatever decision was made in the original ending matter. For example, since the Destruction choice gives us the scene of Shepard taking a breath, have that be the decision that breaks Reaper control. The other two decisions could also have some kind of effect on what happens when/if Shepard wakes up.
As far as the run to the beam goes, there should be factors (ideally War Assets) that determine whether or not your squad members and Anderson actually survive. I'm not expecting they'll just shrug off a Reaper laser, but the possibility for them to live should exist. After all, they could have been on the fringe of the beam. For those people who want a golden ending (yes, I'm one of them), let them have the option, but make it difficult to attain. On the other end of the spectrum, make it possible for the Reapers to win. And a sacrifice ending would also be good. Allow for the different role playing styles of your fans, giving Shepard an end anywhere from tragic to triumphant. Some kind of epilogue would also be nice to further enforce our decisions and give closure.
I'm on the fence about whether or not I would like to hear the Reapers' purpose truly explained, but I would like to see some kind of confrontation with Harbinger.
I'm sure after I post this I'll think of something else, or a better way I could have worded something or expressed my ideas, but I'll leave it at this for now.
As far as the run to the beam goes, there should be factors (ideally War Assets) that determine whether or not your squad members and Anderson actually survive. I'm not expecting they'll just shrug off a Reaper laser, but the possibility for them to live should exist. After all, they could have been on the fringe of the beam. For those people who want a golden ending (yes, I'm one of them), let them have the option, but make it difficult to attain. On the other end of the spectrum, make it possible for the Reapers to win. And a sacrifice ending would also be good. Allow for the different role playing styles of your fans, giving Shepard an end anywhere from tragic to triumphant. Some kind of epilogue would also be nice to further enforce our decisions and give closure.
I'm on the fence about whether or not I would like to hear the Reapers' purpose truly explained, but I would like to see some kind of confrontation with Harbinger.
I'm sure after I post this I'll think of something else, or a better way I could have worded something or expressed my ideas, but I'll leave it at this for now.
#700
Posté 17 mars 2012 - 05:28
Nephilym83
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DadeLeviathan wrote...
A multiple threaded ending that has various outcomes that responds to your choices through the series. The epic hero-sacrifice-himself ending for those who want that, the sunshine and bunnies ending for those that wnat that, and the depressing "this cycle is effed but at least the reapers are defeated" ending for those that want that. That's all I want. That is the ending that ME3 should have had in the first place.
This. This is really important to me. To me, Mass Effect has always told the story I wanted. I chose my dialog, I chose my friends and enemies, I chose the outcome to some pretty tense situations... it's only fitting that I choose the end. If people want a happy ending, they should have it. They've been building this story for the past five years now. It's only fair that they have a part in concluding it. And I don't mean by choosing a color.
Also, I want to see the Rachni on the battlefield. TWICE i saved their Queen. TWICE she promised to help me fight the reapers. Make it happen!
