7052 réponses à ce sujet

[Fame-KIllz]

 postan again

 This is why we don't like the endings:
#1
#2


And this is what you should go with instead (youtube vid)
Indoctrination theory

Modifié par Fame-KIllz, 17 mars 2012 - 03:58 .

[The Edge]

The minutes leading up to the ending are great. Talking with all your party members and saying your last goodbyes was a perfect thing to do. To be honest, this gave me alot of closure with my party members (Garrus and Liara [LI] are notable in this regard).

I wished this feeling carried over into the ending. It all seemed to occur in a vacuum (or a dream, perhaps?) and none of your decisions matter at that point.

The star-child seems tacked on and deus-ex-machina-y. The choices are similar, and the subtle differences are not satisfying in themselves; no matter your choice, you are not choosing what you would ideally do, and the choices themselves contradict any sort of peace and equality you were trying to pursue on your journey (between species, between organic/synthetic, etc.).

Everyone that Shephard encounters (Aria, Bailey, etc.) is left out at the end. There is no closure with these characters and it seems like they were forgotten or brushed aside as "not important".

The endings themselves apparently make no sense; if the mass relays are destroyed, then the respected galaxies are wiped out, from what I understand. If this is the case, there is no "hope" because a) the galaxies are wiped out those left on earth have limited resources and some can't eat human food and c) the normandy landing on a random plant with a small crew and no mass relays suggests certain doom. This scenario holds true in ALL the endings.

If the Indoc Theory is TRUE, though, kudos to you! You tricked me, and I'm ready for the real ending

Modifié par The Edge, 17 mars 2012 - 04:02 .

[chri1608]

Out of all the video games, movies, and books, Mass Effect clearly is my favourite universe with all the races, the relays, the citadelle, teh normandy and all of the characters we meet through this epic journey of course. Now Mass Effect's main theme has always been to save this universe from the arrival of the Reapers and so to save everything you learned to like through all these playthroughs which in the end you want to see saved and get the back to normal ending. Instead of that we get a philosophical ending where this entire theme of saving the galaxy turns into a organic/synthetic debate which doesn't make sense at all and where all the choices we made become totally useless. Don't take me wrong, I am not saying that every endings should be a back to normal ending with Shepard settling down, the galaxy coming back as it was and everything but it should at least be one of the possible endings. To see the reapers win in the end and have all of the races being transformed into reapers if one has not enough war assets would also be a good ending in my opinion for it would fit the idea of mass effect. And though I don't really appreciate them you should most certainly keep the three existing endings also for I understand some people might appreciate them even though I see them as totally depressive with the total destruction of the universe we learned to love and the fact that all of our choices became useless. Always keeping in mind that saving the galaxy and have the reapers succeeding should be added as endings, an epilogue has to be added to the game for it is completely unnacceptable not to know what happenned to everyone after. To this I suggest something like the ending of Dragon Age Origin where you can talk to everyone in the hall of Denerim's palace, which could be the Normandy in Mass Effect or if you want to push it further different places like Earth, Rannoch, Thessia, Palaven, whatever depending on the choices made, the LI, etc. I believe that to add these endings and having this way to know what happened with choices and people after would be an efficient way to please all of the fans and would provide an ending which is much more worthy of the Mass Effect series. If I can just add one thing to this, it would also be nice with the present endings to get an end where the relays, citadelle and normandy aren't destroyed, I understand this is the final of the series but that doesn't meen you have you destroy the whole universe we all appreciate, and finally there is clearly a profit to be made out of this so don't miss your chance.

Appart from that I wish to congratulate you for creating this great universe which was great fromt he beginning to the last 10min or so. I believe Bioware made a magnificent work on every other aspects of the game such as the gameplay, the dialogue options, and the story in general, it is only sad to know that by bringing an alien theme to the game in the last 10 minutes and not offering the fans the ending which would have fit Mass Effect that is "you destroy the Reaper or they destroy you" you made a mistake but if it is the only thing that has to be changed in order for the game to be perfect at 100% it would be a much greater mistake to refuse to change this.

Thanks for all the good times we were offered with Mass Effect and I am convinced you will make the right choice regarding the ending matter.

[FOX216BC]

Jeb231 wrote...

 What I would really like is an expansion 20 years in the future showing the Citadel & Mass relay intact, fueling the indoc theory but since people really want the ending to change this is how I would do it in a way which would involve minimal rewriting.
 
 
Let people replay the last mission. This time during the final sequence you will hear the voice of Anderson telling shepard to wake up. The voice will get louder the closer you get to the destroy option.
 
1/Control
 
a/Low EMS
Original ending
 
b/ Shepard wakes up as a geth, Harbinger takes him, earth destroyed. Bad ending
 
2/ Synthesis (Keep this for the WTF moment.)
 
a/ Low EMS
Same as 1b
 
b/ High EMS
Shepard wakes up, look at LI or Anderson or team member and smile. Suddently turns into a geth, looks at harbinger and sends some kind of EMP that shuts harbinger off. He has become the catalyst at the cost of his humanity.
 
3/Destroy
 
a/Low EMS
Original ending
 
b/High EMS
Shepard wakes up, fight sequence, Normandy shuttle arrives and bring the team into the reaper on earth. After a few husks fight, get in the control room and see the god child hologram turn into harbinger. Have him explain the real reasons behind the reapers cycle of destruction (maybe recton the dark energy thing or imply say they are programmed or it self defense or something else) or do not say anything, just have sheppard mention it's the time for organics to make their own destiny. Use the catalyst device as some kind of a virus program that shuts off harbinger and the reaper fleet in the process.
 
 
Of course an epilogue after that. I'm fine with sheppard surving if need be (I think he should die) but if he does please don't show him with his LI in a farm having babies or I will puke.
 
 
Call it the truth or director's cut.

Well if you don't romance anyone than they wont show shepard with his LI and you want have to puke.
That's the power of choices man.
I would love a LI ending: Shepard+ashley= 4 girls

[Walsh1980]

To me, the only thing that would be worse than the abrupt endings we got would be if they didn't happen. There is potential in the endings we got, there just isn't enough. Explain to us why the Normandy is running away. Show us what Earth is like now that there are no Mass Relays with thousands (millions?) of other species stuck there. The Mass Relays are gone, for decades? A thousand years? Forever? And depending on what we chose, if Shepard is now the one controlling the reapers for example, show us more than them turning blue and taking off.

And the thing that worries me most about the endings, is that we'll never see this universe again at a point beyond Mass Effect 3. We all know Mass Effect 4, or a fps, or strategy game, or mmo or whatever will eventually be made, and I'd like it to be a continuation, not a prequel. We have way too much of that in games these days.

As far as game mechanics... I really wish the NG+ stuff would be available to new ME2 imports once you beat it.  I want to play through again with one of my other ME2 characters and still be able to get guns to level X for example.

Modifié par Walsh1980, 17 mars 2012 - 04:28 .

[Ekebes]

I just wanted to throw in that i was really amazed by (alomst) the whole game. I couldn't care less about seeing Tali's face for real, I'm fine with the mystery of the Quarians' looks.  If Shepard has to die, so be it. I was also looking forward to see the reapers getting their giant insect-buts blasted by a big gun named crucible. But if it has to be a giant wave of whatever the crucible sent out, that's also no problem.  And the awesome part: I finished the SP without taking notice of any bugs. I got all(!) the quests finished without ever having any trouble. 

ME3 touched me in ways no other game or movie did before. Im just awfully sad about how it all ended.


Would it hurt to leave the Mass relays in one piece? Without them the whole Mass Effect-Universe isn't the ME Universe anymore. Biotics and Mass Effect Drive cores, yes. But whats the point of a sci-fi universe like the one in ME, if you can't travel to distant Star systems anymore?

Also the part with joker escaping on the normandy. I'm having a hard time making any sense of this. How did he get (in my case) Garrus aboard and why would he use the mass relais anyway? If the stranding of the normandy on a remote planet should be some kind of happy ending like "arrival in paradise" or something, it went horribly wrong. The first thought that crossed my mind was: Ok. At least one of them will be screwed in about a year (depends on the food stocks with the respective aminos). the whole thing reminded me a little of "Lost". The only difference: They're absolutely sure that noone will ever come by to pick them up.

Thank you for listening =) this makes me feel much better.

[k8ee]

First let me say that the ME series was the greatest set of games I have ever played. Plot holes aside, ME3 especially was just wonderfully done, moving and poignant. But the feeling I was left with at the end was utter failure - to the point where I felt physically ill and was unable to sleep - although you should take this as some what of a compliment that your story is so engaging. I was looking forward to playing ME3 for months and months to come... unfortunately the ending has stolen from me any enjoyment I could get from replaying the game, as I know the tragedy and hopelessness that awaits the characters.

Run with the indoctrination theory. Fans have already done a lot of work, and there is believable evidence to support it.

The endings. What I think people expected:

• Face off against the Illusive man (I liked that we could talk him down, but it would have been nice to have had a Saren moment there where he was revived and fought.)
• Face off against Harbinger. (He seemed strangely absent - using the god child is a great way to introduce this part of the final battle)
• Set off the crucible (If the reapers use indoctrination to control, why shouldn't the crucible be like a giant loudspeaker that uses Shep's thoughts to influence the reapers using a signal sent through the citadel? If you have enough renegade points you can influence the reapers to fight each other, paragon influence them to self destruct/suicide, not enough para/rene points and you have the option of dropping their shields, but they still fight - you sustain heavy losses but with a high enough EMS the fleets are victorious, too low and the reapers win. Finally to give the option of choosing self sacrifice. A happy ending is important to some, as people have been telling their Shepard's story as they see fit and working hard to achieve their desired end (that's why I spent so long making a level 60 ME1 character to import - I believed she couldn't possibly fail). Make this happy ending difficult to achieve and people will play your game for months to come just to feel that sense of accomplishment against unbelievable odds. A very very high EMS and Shepard is rescued, too low and Shepard dies saving the galaxy.
• Cut scenes to show key results of choices and epilogue.

Ultimately these options offer everyone the ability to tell their Shepard's personal story. It will always be bitter sweet as there has already been such heavy losses - some will want to die for the cause, others look for fulfillment in overcoming impossible odds as Shepard has always done in the past.

If destroying the mass relays is something that you feel is necessarily to future projects, at least explain how they are maybe imploding and thus not obliterating so much of the galaxy. I honestly think Mass Effect is one of, if not THE, greatest sci fi trilogy of our generation, all the pieces are there, they just need to be assembled. To have us fight and work to preserve so much and then destroy it all in the end is overwhelmingly tragic and is too much like 'shoot the shaggy dog' trope. Again, you guys did a terrific job otherwise.

'Ending' DLC issues: I've seen a lot of back and forth about paying and not paying for this change. Solution? Patch the current ending to fix plotholes without building on it too heavily, then offer a paid DLC for the "after the attempted indoctrination" part. I want to pay for ending DLC so that it can be implemented and designed properly - in fact I would pay for the entire game over again. To expect you as a developer to do it for free is ridiculous and I don't expect you to. All other pre-ending DLC is, to many players, useless at this point in time because it does nothing to change the outcome, and sadly I must agree. As much as I would love to fight along side Aria to retake Omega, why would I bother? Omega will just be obliterated when the two mass relays in that system go nova.

PS - thank you for the beautiful Garrus romance. It was just perfect, in every way... though I can't bare to play it again knowing how it ends.

[xeternalxredx]

This ending just makes me think that using the crucible was a worse choice than letting the Reapers kill everything. At least if they killed everything the Mass Relays would still be able to work. With the Mass Relays broken almost all the allies we brought to Earth the help defeat the Reaper threat are now stranded on/around a planet/system that's completely mined out of resources. By tacking on 'The Mass Relays will be destroyed' you given us no choice but to condemn all those we fought to save from Reapers a fate worse than death by Reapers. Had Shepard not unleashed the Crucible and stopped the Reapers, the Mass Relays would still work, and there would be a future for the galaxy. Sure there is FTL travel, but there is no way that could work in any sort of fashion the Mass Relays did. The galaxy would have been better off being wiped out by Reapers than suffering through the three choices we were given. Especially since nothing is explained about anything. You press a button, and it's autopilot death for everything eventually. At least with the Reapers killing everyone the galaxy would get better as new lifeforms emerged and gained new advancements.

[alkestis]

Oh, and that damned EMS with the multi-player? I went through every N7 and "find this for this project" mission because I'd understood SP would mean you didn't need to play multi-player.. but that was complete BS. My EMS never got higher than 3800-something before taking the fight to TIM and Earth.

I hate MP so much I finally bribed my 11 yo nephew to play it for me on a free 2-day gold pass this weekend. He likes it, so maybe that tells you something..

[Virith]

I want my Shepard and Garrus reunited, alive and kicking, and maybe deciding a thing or two about their future. You finally gave us such a satisfying Garrus romance, please let my Shepard keep her promise (the non-interrupt one).
A way to save the relays would be nice. There was enough tragedy already.
I'd also like the endings to reflect the choices I've made during all the three games. I want my decisions to matter, otherwise it all feels pointless.

By the way, I wasn't a great fan of the fact, that lots of what Shepard said happened without any kind of player input. In the first two games Shepard felt like *my* character and in 3... not so much.

[omntt]

Scrap the catalyst and everything after it.
Make something similar to the suicide mission in me2, with shepard taking decision on war assets.
Use a badass reaper as a final boss instead of a retarded, illogical ghost kid. Don't worry if it is too "gamey". I swear, i never trusted that dumb kid. Sacrifice is a must, i was expecting something like shepard or the earth going sacrificed, but the outcomes are simply not worth it. Space magic colors mean galactic armageddon, it really doesn't seem a victory, it seems an epic fail, with the survivors doomed to starve, including squad mates. Awesome party with the crew if Shepard manage to survive, something like in The Return Of The Jedi, next scene with a house on Rannoch/Palaven/Thessia/Earth/Whatever with you LI and childrens. Some words on how the various races we saved are going on after the war.

It's not that hard.

Modifié par omntt, 17 mars 2012 - 04:04 .

[Taphia]

First and foremost, I love a great deal of ME3 however, there are a number of issues involved with the game, primarily the ending. I'm very happy with the character dialogue aboard the Normandy which I found amusing, thought provoking, and etc. I was also very happy with modin/thane/legion coming to their various ends. I was also extraordinarily happy with the fem shep/garrus romance story. 

bugs glitches graphical anomalies and technical issues: 
There were a number of these throughout the game, particularly in the Citadel with npc's, a graphical failure when escaping the cerberus base with Jacob, and I had one system crash at some point but I don't remember exactly where. These issues were minor and only mildly annoying. I expect these will be fixed at some point and that's fine. 

Inventory system:
I've had issues with the inventory system in all three games so it's a personal issue and I don't expect a large majority agreeing with me, even my step son rolled his eyes at me. I just felt it was cumbersome and slightly annoying. 

Diana Allers:
I really didn't see the point of this character other than she was sucking up my time on the Normandy and looking pretty trashy. Yes I know in the real world the media plays a major part in wars (see Vietnam as a leading example) but I just didn't see her or her presence aboard the Normandy as worthwhile. I also had a lot of issues with the "interviews" where she would ask a question and then the scene cuts away with out an answer. This was ignorable but also confusing. The main problem with this was that it just added more confusion to the ending as if BW intentionally left out answers to screw with us. I could be wrong though. 

Coretez:
I like this character and I'm all for the equality message he represents. I felt like too much time was spent on helping him get over his problems given the breivity of the rest of the game. This might just be me. It fits with the theme of the games and this isn't the first time we have guided a character to a better place in life so it's only that there were other issues at hand with game length vs subplots. Again, it might just be me that sees this was a time waster but I enjoyed it as a time waster. 

EMS rating:
I like to think I understand it's point but honestly, I really don't. I felt like there was too much stress on the physical number to even get a remotely viable ending. I plowed through the game and I had a lower readiness rating than most so I ended up with the crappiest ending of the crappy endings the first run. In previous games it came down to doing the appropriate missions/quests/whatever or loyalty missions combined with picking the right people to get the job done. In ME3, there was some of this but it all comes down to the EMS score and for some reason this just bothered me. I'm a casual gamer for the most part and this seemed to hinder rather than help. 

The endings:
I've been extra super excited about ME3 since it was announced. It was on my Christmas list immediately and then it was pushed to spring which is no biggie because I understand how long games/code/rendering/writing/etc take to put together. I went out of my way to avoid spoilers and I put my horse blinders on until I had the game. I had faith in the quality of game based on previous ME games and the trailer during the Walking Dead got me all excited. I bought the collector's edition, I spent my weekend playing it to death, and it was great. Right up until the end. 

From the time we start the ending, which seemed closer to the getting up on the Cerberus HQ things begin to unravel. How did the Illusive Man get the human reaper if we blew up the collector base in ME2? that really bothered me because as a paragon shep i blew that crap to pieces because it really was an abomination. The pc terminals throughout the HQ were also sort of confusing to me, partly because I didn't have any idea who Grayson was but that's just me so it's only a personal issue but i found it tedious. Maybe a cutscene or some extra explanation was needed here because I had to spend some time looking this up. It's not a huge issue but again, I felt out of the loop. This was a good nod to players who played/read/whatever outside of the ME games themeselves. 

In ME2 there was an end scene that showed the star behind the Illusive Man as being blue and then in ME3 it was back to normal... continuity issue. Otherwise the fight with Kai Leng was not bad. I even liked the final moment you kick his butt. 

The Catalyst seemed to be an after thought at this point in the writing. The VI basically tells you that the Citadel is the Catalyst and you have to scramble to get moving on it. How exactly do the reapers move the Citadel to Earth? If they could do that all this time, why didn't they do it sooner? What about all the refugees there? It's awfully bleak to think about. There's a lot of flaws in the Citadel is the Catalyst but that's part of the bigger problem with the endings. 

Somewhere along the line you have Anderson tell you he's from London in the holographic chats with him. Then you show up there and he repeats this. Unnecessary unless of course this is some point for the Indoc theory. The goodbyes to the characters you've collected along the way were great, no complaints. The battle to get to the beam was instense, and i can't complain. There seemed to be a lot of people dying and the reaper guarding the beam just lays waste so i'll leave that alone too. The blowing up of said reaper was intense and since the Normandy is floating around in the battle above Earth and EDI is awesome, you win that fight. 

You run for the beam, get blasted, get up all busted up, kill some bad guys, and port into a hall of dead people. That hall of dead people was grusome and I felt it unnecessary but that might just be me. I wasn't really happy with the zombie crawl of shep at this point either but I'm impaitent. The events following that seem out of sync with the rest of the game. Why is shep trashed so bad and Anderson doesn't have a scratch? The Illusive Man is all reapered out but when you talked to him before the Kai Leng fight he wasn't, why? The talk with TIM wasn't really an issue but I was frustrated by not being able to skip any of that chat when I played it through again. After talking him into shooting himself, things seem to be looking up. Crucible is in place, shep is watching the view, and then Hackett says its not working. Shep gets up, rides the elevator, things become unbelievably confusing, and the god child makes no sense until you are given three options that make no sense. I let shep stand there until i got a "critical mission failure" screen because I was trying to grasp what was going on via google with no answers so I went back through all of that again and picked an option. 

The options didn't make any sense to me. Control the reapers like TIM, make a reaper so the reapers win, or destroy all syntethic crap so we're all in the bronze age again. This was pretty lame to me and I didn't see Shep being ok with the options but never the less, we have to choose between three crappy options and watch different colored 'splosions based on those options. 

At the end of my blue colored 'splosions my exact words were "WTF is this anticlimactic crap? That didn't even make any sense." I yelled that quite loudly actually. My husband suggested I try a different option so I went back through all of that again and got pretty much the same thing and said something similar but not as loudly. I did not expect a rainbows and sunshine ending. I figured my shep would sacrifice her self in some way to win. The keyword here being win. No one won and none of that cut scene made any sense to me. The Normandy escaping the 'splosions doesn't fit since i know Joker was floating up in space above Earth. Was the jungle planet supposed to be heaven? Why can't I go to the jungle planet with my allegedly dead crew and get my coconut drink complete with emergency injection port while Mordin is researching seashells? If all the mass relays are obliterated, what happened to the super armada I put together? Are the turians and quarians going to starve to death? Are we all destined to be asari in the end? If god is an AI why couldn't i reason with it? Didn't i just prove galactic peace can be accomplished? 

After thinking about this i realized something important. ME1 paragon shep ending: drive the car to the mass relay to port to the citadel to talk saren into shooting himself and then destroy the reaper. ME3 ending for me was, run for the beam, port to the citadel, talk TIM into shooting himself, and then destroy the reapers. That didn't make me feel good. Not at all. 

Conclusion:
Strange things are afoot at the mass relay. I don't know who came up with the ending or why. I don't know who thought this was a good idea. I don't know what corporate guy let this get by. I don't care. I just want it to make sense. There are a number of issues at hand with this entire ending controversy but the heart of it is the ending simply didn't live up to what we felt we were promised. As a writer of fiction myself, I understand how the idea of the god child AI came about but it was poorly executed and there were a lot of continuity issues within that idea. I understand how the business end of this is going down, lawyers and ceo's make the brain hurt but i really felt like the lack of communication spoke volumes on the issue. I also felt an extreme disappointment when I got to the end of hundreds of hours of play for something that doesn't make sense. There's a youtube video that has all the end cut scenes of multi colored 'spolsions that are all pretty much the same and it felt cheap, but my husband got on board with me after seeing that and he's holding the line with me which makes us a family of four to hold the line together. Team unity... a common theme in ME. 

I just want the end to make sense, however that is accomplished doesn't really matter as long as it makes sense and there is closure. Rainbows and sunshine would be fantastic but it won't kill me if there isn't a happy ending. I will even pay for a DLC that accomplishes making sense and bringing closure. There are a number of ways to do this. A) Release an ending dlc that actually takes into account what we've been doing in the rest of the games, like we were expecting. The indoc theorists probably have the right idea and I'm sure bioware's writers could make it epic. I would like to see a happy ending for paragon players such as all the crew/friends you lost sitting on the beach researching seashells, chatting, using emergency injection ports, whatever. See me2's ending scene where your crew that has survived the suicide mission is hanging out if we must recycle ideas again. Make the saving of the collector base matter to those that saved it because in its current form, it doesn't matter. Renegade players probably have better suggestions as to what they would like to see so I'll leave that for them. DLC that makes sense of the god child ai and fixes the tons of continuity flaws. I'd like to see SOMETHING that makes sense of this because in my mind it entirely negates whatever shep has tried to accomplish in previous play. Three crappy choices that don't make sense should be explained and we'd all like to understand is going on in the galaxy after we've put everyone in the bronze age. C) Do nothing and see how that works out. It won't be good that's for sure but that's apparently the right of BW and EA. If option C comes to fruition then I think I might have to stop putting money in EA's pocket. I dont' want to sue or file complaints or whatever. I just won't waste money. 

See what I did there? Three options that all suck. A is doing a lot of hard work to make fans happy. B is doing less work and making some disgruntled fans happy. C is exactly where we are. I explained my three choices though. Ok so maybe it's not as funny as it could be but I'm trying. ME matters to me and I am emotionally invested in the story. I'm holding the line, we are holding the line, and we want to see something good come out of this. We're all standing on the brink of a major change in the gaming industry. We all have the power to put this right and I'd like to see that. 

tl;dr: the ending bothered me and fix it please, don't care how just make it make sense and bring closure. 

[Noidnil]

Only things want is better picture for Tali, an Ending that may be called one and a different design for the Normandy.

[klungilungi]

Get rid of the illogical and lore-breaking space kid, or embrace the indoctrination theory ( I am still hoping Bioware was planning that from the start). Better romance conclusion for the non-crew members from ME2. And make the EMS actually make sense, what the space-kid decides has absolutely nothing to do with how many ships you have, and weather or not the beam burns earth is also not tied to the EMS, how Bioware thought this was a good idea is beyond me.

(There are other problems with the ending that others have addressed already so I will not repeat them and flood the forum. But I agree with most of them. So I will add something I have not yet seen, if someone have already pointed this out, I apologize and you can discard what I write since they have probably phrased it better than I have, me not being English and all. Here goes.)

Then there is the matter of the crucible, which to me was the biggest game breaker. There are a few reasons for this, I will try to list them as efficiently as possible. (Not counting that the whole super weapon plot tool is very cheap and below bioware standards, or it used to be).
1. You never learn the origin of the crucible, you begin by believing it is a prothean design but learn that it is not so, and that they also just found it, like the species before. (Convenient right?) Yet no one knows what it actually does yet are convinced that it will save them from the reapers, this to me seemed like quite a gamble, but understandable considering the desperation they must have felt.
2. The crucible includes the catalyst in its design (AKA starchild, the citadel AI) Yet none of the previous species was aware of its existence. How did they build it to use the catalyst if they did not know of it. This leads me to believe that the crucible is actually of reaper origin, or those who built the reapers, since they are the only one who knows of the starchild's existence. Not to mention they are the only ones as far as we know who have mastered the technology of the mass relays.
3. This leads me to the third problem with the crucible. The actual function of the weapon is to control, destroy the reapers, or synthesise the galaxy. This seems like a tool for the reapers, and not a weapon built to defeat them.

The crucible sounds like a trap to me, a way for the reapers to force the remaining organics to waste their finite resources to build a weapon that does not work, imagine how many dreadnoughts the alliance could build with the resources the used to construct the crucible. The reapers had control of the citadel in all previous cycles, the remaining restance would be forced to launch an attack on the citadel in order to use the weapon, thus the reapers would destroy whatever resistance that remained. If this is the true reason for the crucible I applaud Bioware, it is not perfect, but much better than the space-kid different colour explosion crucible. We are always told that the reapers are so intelligent and beyond our comprehension, that they dictate how civilizations evolve, this would show us that. That even in war the reapers are prepared and clever.

Like most others here I also would like closure, to see what happens to the alliances that I have forged, the wars I have ended, the species I have saved or destroyed. I do not need a happy ending, dark and sad is good, if it is written well. Although I wouldn't mind an option where Shepard does live, but this should be difficult, and it must not be an overwhelming victory without sacrifice. I do believe that the indoc-theory is a perfect position to reset the ending, where the easter-egg video of Shepard taking a breath is him waking up in London. To me the most important thing is to have a new ending without major plot-holes, and hopefully without the space-kid, and one that does not go against already established canon lore that you guys invented.

I would like to end on a happy note though, I loved the game until I was shot by Harbinger. ( I would love to talk to him in the new ending, why wasn't he speaking to begin with?) I cried manly tears when Mordin sacrificed himself to cure the Krogan, It felt like being stabbed in the chest when Legion died. And to have Cerberus defeat you at Thessia and watch helplessly as giant sushi reapers descended to kill and harvest the asari was just perfectly done. This is also why I believe the Indoc theory was planned from the start, because the ending is just so poorly written it does not meet the standard the writers had throughout the game. I would like to thank the writers for all their hard work since the first game, it has been one of my favourite game series.
And I wish you all the best in the future.

[Thornprime]

Giving Commander Shepard a "bitter sweet" ending is more a disservice to the fans and to him/her than a giving a happy one. The struggles, blood/sweat, relationships made, alliances forged need to be made worth something. To have that all be taken away in the last 5 minutes is like a slap in the face.

[Joie de Combat]

I'll try to break down my response to the ending in the most objective way possible.

First: the final scene with the Catalyst, and the choice it presents, does not make sense in terms of narrative structure. This post analyzes the ending from a technical standpoint and makes some great points about how the way it's structured doesn't work; in particular, I want to draw attention to the point the OP makes that the scene with the Catalyst comes far too late in the storyline to be introducing new information, especially new information that's meant to so drastically change how we understand the whole conflict. By that point in the game, I was expecting resolution, not new questions.

To draw comparisons to two other BioWare games: in the first Mass Effect, the last big revelation comes from Vigil on Ilos. While there's one more big decision to make after that point regarding whether ro save or sacrifice the Council, it's based entirely within the context of things we already understood before that point, not on game-changing new information only just provided by a heretofor-unknown third party, and it takes place before Shepard's climactic confrontation with the game's primary antagonists, Saren and Sovereign. In Dragon Age: Origins, the last big revelation happens at Redcliffe with Riordan's explanation of what killing the archdemon requires, followed by Morrigan's offer of the dark ritual as an alternative. The last big game-changing decision happens here, before the final battle kicks off. The structure of these developments in these two games makes dramatic sense in a way that Mass Effect 3's ending, specifically the last conversation with the Catalyst, does not.

It also doesn't make sense in the context of the series as a whole up to that point. Starting right from Eden Prime in the original Mass Effect, the Reapers are set up as the setting's ultimate threat, a fact which remains consistent throughout all three games. Time and time again the games establish them as a force of unmatched horror: they don't just repeatedly wipe out galactic civilization, they rob sentient beings of their free will, corrupt them physically into monstrous husks of their former selves, and turn them against their own kind. The derelict Reaper in Mass Effect 2 establishes that they do this not just by volition but by their very nature. Because this is presented so consistently throughout the series, and because Mass Effect 3 especially goes out of its way to illustrate the full extent of the horror that the Reapers present, to be told in the last conversation of the game that the Reapers are not themselves the problem but are instead an imperfect response to a bigger problem does not work. No matter what the Catalyst tells Shepard, it can't possibly be more convincing than everything the games have shown up to that point, and the last-minute change of direction, along with the fact that the climactic confrontations in the endgame are with everything but actual Reapers, is confusing and unsatisfying.

The scene with the Catalyst also fails to make sense in the context of the series in another way when the Catalyst states that synthetic and organic life are fundamentally incapable of coexisting. Had the trilogy remained consistent with the original Mass Effect's stance that synthetic intelligence shares no needs or motivations that gives it any reason to coexist with organic life - supported by the fact that over the course of the game Shepard encounters several forms of synthetic intelligence and they're all actively hostile to organics - the Catalyst's argument would make sense. But that's not the case. Mass Effect 2 specifically sets out to overturn that assumption by introducing EDI and Legion, two synthetic characters who prove themselves perfectly able and willing to coexist with organics, and who in Legion's case cast the geth as a whole in a much more sympathetic light. Mass Effect 3 goes even further: it gives Shepard the opportunity to reconcile the geth with their creators and create peace between them, and it further humanizes EDI, showing her repeatedly contemplating her own nature as it relates to the organics around her and even giving Shepard the chance to encourage a romance between her and Joker.

I've heard a lot of fans voice dissatisfaction with the fact that Shepard isn't even able to bring these up as counter-examples against the Catalyst's argument, but honestly, if Shepard had been able to bring them up only for the Catalyst to handwave them away, I'd have found that to be just as bad. Either way, what the Catalyst tells Shepard - and, by extension, the player - is that these examples don't matter, that at best they are aberrations doomed to eventually fail, and that the effort put into achieving them (considerable effort, in the case of the geth/quarian conflict) was meaningless. The question that ME2 and ME3 poses about whether or not synthetic life has the same value and validity as human life - a question that could have been left open-ended to encourage player speculation - is either answered with a resounding "no" by the "control" and "destroy" endings, or rendered completely moot by the "synthesis" ending.

On an even greater level, the Catalyst's argument flies in the face of the Paragon theme of resolving conflicts between different sides or disparate groups by finding common ground while still recognizing the value of their differences, because it states that the only possible way of resolving the conflict between these two different groups, short of eliminating one of them by destroying or taking direct control of it, is to remove all differences between them and homogenize them into a single group. As someone who played a consistently Paragon Shepard throughout the trilogy, I found that a very, very bitter pill to swallow. I'm sure it was intended to be a positive and thought-provoking ending, but between the complete rejection of Paragon Shepard's values up to that point and the fact that the decision is made entirely without input or consent from any of the individuals who are going to be affected by it, the whole thing made me very uncomfortable.

My second major complaint regarding the ending is the lack of closure it provides, both for the specific characters I've spent three games becoming emotionally invested in and for the setting as a whole. The game's final decision, regardless of its outcome, makes drastic and widespread changes to the nature of the setting, and the ending sequence that follows it shows very little indication of what the effects of Shepard's decision are going to be, leaving the players to extrapolate based solely on what the Catalyst told us. This is particularly frustrating with regards to Shepard's squad, who are not only affected by that last choice just like the rest of the galaxy, but on top of that are shown being dropped into an unfamiliar environment with no explanation of how or why they should have ended up there when the last time we saw any of those characters aside from Joker was on Earth. The shot of them emerging from the Normandy and smiling off into the distance is only just enough to indicate to me that I'm supposed to understand that they'll be okay, but given the situation they're in and the absence of any other clues about what's going to happen to them, the only conclusions that I can draw aren't very promising - a problem that could have been almost completely avoided if the surviving squad members had been shown on Earth rather than cast away on some unknown planet, in all probability completely cut off from aid due to the loss of the mass relays.

I've noticed that in many of the responses to the dissatisfaction about the ending, there seems to be an assumption that fans are upset because it wasn't perfectly happy. Let me say for the record that I never expected a perfectly happy ending. I completely understand that it's intended to be bittersweet. The problem is that it misses the mark to the point that I can find little sweetness in it. Throughout Mass Effect 3, we see Shepard, her team, and the setting as a whole hitting rock bottom, suffering through agonizing decisions, sacrifices, loss and unmitigated horrors, none of which could possibly be wiped away no matter how the conflict ultimately ended. To make a bittersweet ending of that, simply knowing that the Reapers have been removed as a threat is not enough. I needed to see more of an indication that, yes, the scars will remain, but the nightmare is over and the survivors have a chance to begin rebuilding.

I don't need or want a Dragon Age: Origins-style summation of how everyone's lives went, but even a brief scene of dialogue between the surviving squad members showing them reacting to the events of the ending would have gone a long, long way towards giving me a sense of closure for them.

These are my main complaints regarding the ending. I have some other issues with it, particularly regarding its inconsistencies, how poorly the synthesis option in particular fits in with what the games had established regarding their setting and genre, and how misleading the pre-release statements about what to expect from the ending turned out to be, but I could have accepted those things had it not been for the issues I've described.

I also want to say that the game up until the its problematic ending is amazing. I have never been as emotionally invested into a video game as I felt while I was playing Mass Effect 3, and that's why I find the failures of the ending so frustrating and disappointing.

Modifié par Joie de Combat, 17 mars 2012 - 11:20 .

[aquaticidioticus]

EternalSteelfan said...

A. First, a few pet peeves. Tropes are very popular for making generalizations about parts of stories we dislike, but they have a tendency to be overused and misused.

The Crucible isn't a MacGuffin. The best and most common example of an actual MacGuffin is the briefcase in Pulp Fiction; we don't know what is in the briefcase and we don't know how or why it functions, but it's important because it motivates the characters and drives the plot. Basically, a MacGuffin is important only because it's important. The Crucible in Mass Effect 3 is an actual plot device (a MacGuffin is a very specific subset of this); we are told what it is and what it's function is right from the beginning and it's use in the climax is in line with this.

The Crucible isn't an example of deus ex machina. Again, we know all along that the Crucible's function is to stop the Reapers, it's introduced at the beginning of the story, it's importance is reinforced throughout, and it's function during the climax is in line with what is expected. An example of Mass Effect ending with deus ex machina would be: the Reapers win the battle of Earth and are seemingly unstoppable, suddenly, and with no previous justification, an even more advanced race emerges from deep space and destroys the Reapers, saving Earth. The difference is obvious; one is a clearly defined plot device, the other is a magical fix with no precedent in the story.

Being the only time I'm going to talk about tropes, and for humorous purposes only, here are some I find more accurate for the ending: the lack of resolution after all the setting-shifting events, especially the lack of clarity in regards to the future of the setting and it's characters (including the protagonist and in some cases the antagonist force) may be considered no ending, the Reaper-God-Child and unexpected side effects of the Crucible may be considered diabolus ex machina, and the sudden shift of themes from hope and fighting the impossible fight to that of true art is angsty can be seen as an example of a sudden downer ending. I'm certain there are more we can shoehorn as applicable, but this is as far as I'm willing to go into tropes.

I want to iterate that I dislike how much we over analyze tropes and assign them as labels to similar and overgeneralized devices and themes. Stories are usually divergent enough from other stories that generalizing aspects of them with tropes rarely do them justice and are ambigous enough that what tropes a story actually uses are debatable. I only addressed the aforementioned devices of deus ex machina and MacGuffin because they are venerable and distinct enough that their usage in reference to Mass Effect 3 is clearly wrong. TL;DR: tropes are convenient but our time is better spent looking at the specifics of a given story.

B. The resolution of Mass Effect 3 falls short for many reasons. More than I'd care to get into, truth be told,  so I'll try to punch on at least some of the major failings through the eyes of a screenwriter.

--1. The ending feels jarring and out of place and there is little closure, this is a sympton of the ending failing to live up to what we come expect from the story. As I've previously said, "Mass Effect is a conventional story with conventional expectations". A conventional story, almost all stories, follow a pretty standard plotline: Introduction - Ascending Action - Climax - Descending Action - Resolution. In film we break it up into 3 acts, roughly: the first act is the introduction, the second act is the rising action and longest act of the story, and the third act is the climax and resolution.

Mass Effect 3 and the previous games follow this plotline both as individual stories and in the grand scheme of things as a trilogy (a trilogy is basically the three act structure writ large), that is until the final moments of 3. For reference, The battle for Earth is the climax of the series and the run across no man's land to the Citadel beam is the climax of the specific game; with this in mind, the Citadel sequence is the final part of the descending action and the resolution for both the game and series, the part where the antagonist is finally defeated, the themes and dramatic questions are answered, and the loose ends are tied. Or rather, it should be. After the defeat of the Illusive Man (the antagonist role is somewhat muddled and blurry towards the end of the story, more on that briefly), the protagonist has reached his goal, the defeat of the Reapers is at hand; conventionally, this is where the protagonist would succeed, the Crucible fire, and the Reapers destroyed. Instead, the story grows convoluted (once again, this is supposed to be the resolution) at the height of the scene by jarring us out of it with the bizarre, dreamlike sequence of Sheperd's ascent on the magic platform and the introduction of an ancient and seemingly god-like form who expounds the final choice between three options, all presented symbolically in appearance and action: one which mirrors a co-antagonist's desire which has been reinforced throughout as wrong and contradictory of the protagonist's; one which is downright bizarre and is almost completely outside the scope of the game's main themes save for being somewhat in line with the primary antagonistic forces' goal; and one which accurately mirrors the protagonist's goal from since the beginning. The results of these choices vary and are wide-reaching, creating a massive upheaval of the story world, while being unclear.  All of the characters and the entire setting are left to an uncertain and sometimes confusing fate.

Just looking at what I've typed, it's apparent this is not a resolution. New information is introduced throughout the entire sequence rather than tying loose ends. New information shouldn't be introduced in a resolution unless it directly resolves something or is quickly resolved itself; definitively, it's the opposite of what a resolution is. In layman's terms, this is what makes us feel like there are more questions than answers.

The fate of the characters and the final destination they reach in the story are crucial to the resolution, especially on the scale of a trilogy. During the ascending action, right before the climax of the no man's land run, we are given a send off from all of the characters; this is both out of order for a conventional plotline (more fitting the descending action rather than ascending) and dimished by the implications of the ending. Ultimately, it is through the characters that we most directly identify with the story and find the meaning, the lack of resolution in this regard is especially unsatisfying.

The resolution is where the audience is supposed to find the tale's "ever after", be it happy or sad. Mass Effect 3 completely lacks any sense of "ever after".

--2. Video games, like film, are a visual medium; the ending tells us what happens rather than shows us what happens. This is easy to overlook but very important. Visual mediums for story are all about what we see. Another cardinal sin of storytelling commited during the ending is the description of, and differences between, the options in the final choice are almost all conveyed through exposition. The cinematics themselves, what we actually see, are extremely similar and all the implications of the choice we make are conveyed through what the exposition had told us. This is very poor storytelling and worse still to be considered the resolution.

--3. Ambiguity, lack of clarity, plot holes. Relating to the previous points, the ending is excessively ambiguous and unclear. With only unclear exposition before the choice and without sufficient data presented afterwards, many situations are unaccounted for and either lack clarity at best or appear as plot holes at worst. The crash landing of the Normandy is a clear example of this ambiguity, both in it's plausibility and implications for the fate of the crew.

--4. Nothing is gained by breaking convention and attempting to make the ending enigmatic or profound. Assuming this was the writers' goal, this is another failing. Some believe, myself included, that the writers' tried to use the jarring impact of an unconventional, imperfect ending to hammer home a message or theme (presumably: pre-destination, the uncontrollable nature of fate, and the individual's limited ability to impact the world). This, however, comes at the cost of the story and the audience's pleasure, a cost that is far too high for the nature of storytelling.

--5. The resurgence and emphasis on The Illusive Man during the resolution as well as the lack of interaction with the Reapers and, more specifically, Harbinger,  detracts from the Reapers as the antagonist. A lot of people expected a "boss fight" of sorts or a closing discussion with Harbinger at the end. This is a perfectly understandable and legitimate expectation. During the climax, we are almost defeated by Harbinger, the avatar for the Reapers as antagonist, however, during the resolution, it is the indoctrinated Illusive Man that takes takes center stage. Though he unwittingly is an assisting force for the Reapers, he is not directly representative of them, merely their influence. TIM's role is more fitting that of an obstacle to be overcome during the rising action.

The prominance of The Illusive Man as the final foe to be overcome detracts from the overall threat and importance of the true antagonist, the Reapers.

--6. Shepherd is not a tragic hero. A common debate I see is between people who think there should be a happy ending and people who think such an ending would be out of place or impossible, sometimes refering to Shepherd as "tragic". The simple fact is, Shepherd has no tragic flaw nor does he make a tragic mistake; had such a tragic characteristic existed, it could be a foregone conclusion he would die. Overcoming the Reapers may be an impossible task, but the impossible is
routinely overcome in the Mass Effect trilogy and other epics. As is, there is nothing in the story that would railroad Shepherd towards an inevitable demise, the difficulty of his task makes his death likely, but there's nothing that should remove the possibility of a happy ending. This may be why many people want a "happy" or "brighter" ending, there's no setup nor payoff to Shepherd's death and without those it may feel cheap; storytelling is all about setup and payoff.

For an example of a good tragic hero, look no farther than Mordin Solus. His tragic mistake was the creation of the genophage. When a desperate need for krogan intervention arose and the genophage was the reason they refused, Mordin fulfilled his tragic role by sacrificing and redeeming himself. There's a big setup for the genophage throughout the series and Mordin's involvement is setup in the second game as a huge internal conflict for him. In three, this all pays off beautifully with either his redemption or brutal murder at Shepherd's hands before he can succeed. This is proper execution for a tragic character. From what I've seen, this is one of the most beloved and well-received storylines in the game; compare that to the ending's reception.

These points were written as a stream of conscious, I'm sure there are plenty of things I've missed or didn't feel like going in depth about, but I think those are some of the most important ones.

C. As I was writing this I read the Final Hours thread containing comments from Mac Walters and Casey Hudson as well as Walters' scribbled notes for the ending. Honestly I was taken aback.

Judging the content Hudson cut based on his feel for "the moment", I'd say his feel for emotional beats and his judgement of what was expendable for story economy was atrocious. The first Mass Effect was inundated at times with exposition and had very poor economy, this ending, on the other hand, is something of an opposite with not nearly enough information.

Walters' notes scrawled across loose leaf disappointed me. The ideas are clearly not fleshed out at all, strictly drawing board material, the execution we see in game is indicative of that. " Lots of speculation from everyone" is somewhat repulsive, as if providing an unclear, poorly planned ending that leaves your audience unsatisfied and grasping at straws for answers is somehow good storytelling. It gives me the inclination that the ending really was just for publicity.

I hope it continues to backfire.

Anyway, I'm off. Any interest or questions or if you want to pick my brain about storytelling, we'll call this a work in progress.

Updated: point 6

This is a wonderful post and I think it deserves to be quoted again, again; as Cmdr Shepard N-7 quoted it earlier in the thread.

Great job EternalSteelfan - I agree with what you've argued and it was much more in-depth (and much better written) than the response I was going to give.

Modifié par aquaticidioticus, 17 mars 2012 - 04:05 .

[Arkhn7]

FOR THOSE WHO DONT FEEL LIKE READING THIS WALL OF TEXT, PLEASE CONSIDER READING MY FINAL POINT ABOUT GIVING PLAYERS CONTROL OVER THEIR ENDING, AND THE SHORT PARAGRAPH MARKED BY TWO /!\\.

---------------------------------

Hello,

First of all I would like to say that I am (like many others here) a huge Mass Effect fan. With the Mass Effect trilogy, you amazing people at Bioware / Ea have created one of the greatest saga ever, and I sincerely mean it. I love all three games, and though they are not exempt of some minor flaws, those are immediatly overcome by the overall brilliance of the games.

The Mass Effect trilogy is in many aspects, a true masterpiece. Never before has a video game make me feel so deeply connected to its universe and its characters, and I've played my fair share. You grow to understand them, to make your own opinion on them, to care about them, to love or hate them. More so than in any video game I've ever played before.

But I could go on and on about that, and that's not the point of this thread, is it ?

For all my love of the Mass Effect Saga, one point painfully stands out as somewhat a huge disappointement : the
ending. 
There has been an empty place in my stomach for about a week now (as I write this). Something feeling strangely amiss ever since in finished ME3. I just couldn't (and still can't) seem to wrap my head around the endings. When I saw the credits roll I was gaping at the screen, feeling too shocked to do anything else than to stare blankly as the names went by. I couldn't say that I felt betrayed, I just felt... wrong. As in a bad dream. So i'll try to put in simple
terms my issues - in no particular order - with the ending while trying to be as thorough as possible : please note that this is MY opinion and MY understanding of this whole ordeal. I'm not trying to preach or convince anyone, I just want to give my honest and heartfelt opinion. I'm deeply convinced by the opinion I'm going to expose here.

 *The lack of coherent explanations : So many things feel wrong and amiss in the ending, so
I'll go in chronological order :

- After being hit - or nearly hit - by the reaper beam during the race for the conduit, when you get up, where are your companions ? What happened to them ? Did they get knocked out as weel ? Why aren't they anywhere to be seen ?
         
 - Then you hear some radio chatter stating that no one reached the conduit. So why is Anderson up there when you get there ? Why didn't you see him enter the beam ? Why do the guys on the radio say that no one entered the citadel ? Those  guys must have a clear view to the beam to be able say that, so how come they don't notice Commander Shepard limping and shooting his way towards the conduit ? And where is the reaper that defended the access ? Did he just leave ? That seems rather unlikely !
                         
 - Inside the citadel : such a strange place. Why are the walls moving ? If the catalyst really is the citadel as he pretends to, why doesn't he try to stop you there ? Why doesn't he wall you off that console where you meet Anderson and TIM ? Also, how does Anderson reach that control room ? Where does TIM come from when he confronts you ? OK, the place is supposed to be moving, shifting, but then again we never witness it doing so. When I first reached that room, I just couldn't understand how any of them got here.
     
 - With the catalyst : This whole scene just doesn't make sense to me. His explanations just don't make sense. The reapers were supposed to be beyond our comprehension. So why does he expose their plans in two sentences ?
Is he lying ? Why can't we have a word to say to this ? Why does Shepard blindly believes what he is said by someone who definitely is some kind of super-reaper, or mother-of-all-reapers ? Why doesn't he argue about the reapers purpose ? Why doesn't he argue about the choices he is given ? Is he being indoctrinated ? If so, does that
mean that all choices given are ultimately good for the reapers, and that there is really no hope to stop them, because whatever you chose it will be under reaper influence ?

EVERYTHING the catalyst says creates more incomprehension and raises more questions that are
not answered, for instance, if the citadel is the catalyst and somewhat under reaper control, then how did they fail to open the conduit in ME1 ? If the citadel created the reapers, is it capable of indoctrination ? Does the catalyst need the crucible to be active ? Then why did the protheans - or anyone in the previous cycle - suddenly decide to include the citadel in the plans for the crucible? Because they thought it would look cool ?

My point in all this being, better no explanations of the reapers motives, than one that doesn't make sense. The whole scene is so short, Shepard - and the player - should have tons of questions to ask. Instead, we are left in the dark after 2 minutes of half-assed explanations, to make choices we can't argue about, and whose consequences we - as players - can't even begin to grasp.
    
/!\\
     
- The point i'm going to expose now is probably the one that gave me the most hope that the current ME3 endings were false endings, and nothing more than indoctrination-induced hallucinations :
 ------>Why does the "N7 breathing scene" appear only in the "destroy" ending if not to point at a canon ending that will have a follow up ? And more importantly, what is Shepard doing in London's rubbles during that scene ? Wasn't he supposed to be on the citadel ? I doubt very much that he simply fell from the citadel right back to London. I know Shepard is hard to kill (Lazarus project anyone ?) but that simply doesn't make sense. What is Shepard doing in London's rubbles after the destroy option has been chosen ? Why is he waking up in London when he was supposed to be dead AND on the citadel after chosing that option ? Why is he lying in the midst of rubbles that don't look like being from the citadel, when he was supposed to have been on the citadel moments ago ?

/!\\

- About the normandy flying through a relay : 
What the hell ? Why ? Why would the normandy leave Shepard behind ? What are crew members that were supposed to be whith me in London doing here ? Were they picked up by the normandy ? Why didn't they pick up Shepard ? If Shepard really was in the citadel, and thus not being in London when the normandy swept by (yes, swooping is bad, I know) to pick them up, then WHAT IS SHEPARD DOING IN LONDON'S RUBBLE IN THE DESTROY ENDING ?

* The complete lack of closure :

We simply don't know what happens. What are the consequences of your actions / choices ? What happens to your squadmates if they are really stranded ? Are the mass relays really destroyed ? Do they explode like they did in ME2
arrival ? Do they wipe out entire systems ? Are entire races sprawled around the universe with no mean to reunite ? If you chose the destroy ending, Is the citadel destroyed ? Will it fall down on earth and destroy the planet ? What happens to earth with all those dead reapers falling into its atmosphere ? What happens to Shepard ?

Was this all a hallucination ?

I truly believe in the Hallucination / Indoctrination theory, because through it, the endings make much more sense to me than otherwise. Nothing in the game formally disproves it. And I find there are more proofs in favor, than against this theory.

A way to bring some closure to some players would be to FORMALLY announce wether or not this theory is true. Instead all we got in the past weeks were cryptic tweets and announcement by bioware than tend(ed?) to hint at the veracity of the theory. 
Appart from the "If the fans knew what was in store their reaction would be different"@mikegamble and the numerous "hold on to your saves !", here are a chosen few :

----------

Samantha @HikingSammy
@Masseffect @agentmvp So u are basically working for/with the Reapers aye ?

Mass Effect @masseffect
@hikingsammy Move along. Nothing to see here.*cough cough*

----------

Mass Effect @masseffect
@stephanieoeben Thank YOU for playing We have no info on Shep at the moment but... stay tuned !

----------

Jacob Szotarski 72@ ramdass
@72ramdass @masseffect By the way, you're sitting on Illusive's Man chair...

Mass Effect @masseffect
@72ramdass Indoctrination is a very powerful force.

----------

Crowbar @CrowbarRX
@masseffect Mass Effect 3 was brilliant, the whole series was, but while this probably won't be answered, is that really how Shepard ends?

Mass Effect @masseffect
@crowbarrx We can't saaaaay !

----------

Mass Effect @masseffect
@Jakefinn94 Mike Gamble already said on his twitter, if the fanks knew what was in store, the reaction would be different

----------

Mass Effect @masseffect
@redzppln We're keeping our saves, that's for sure

-----------

Garrison Scott @gman214
@masseffect too late, already into my third play through of #ME3..... its like the game is indoctrinating me ! Did you sell me reaper tech ?

Mass Effect @masseffect
@gman214 No Way ! *innocent eyes*

----------


And those are but a few. While I agree that I might have been reading perhaps too much in some of those messages, in a situation like the one we're in, we can't ignore the crucial importance public relation has. The people who wrote those responses have been trained and told what to answer, and when to answer. And yes, I've read the very interesting PR analysis in this thread : 
http://social.biowar...x/10084349&lf=8 , but those message still give me a flicker of hope.



* Give the players control over their endings

Yes, I've read some messages stating that ME3 was designed to be some sort of giant ending. Yet it doesn't feel that way. The ultimate goal is to thwart or destroy the reapers. And in that regard, the game is disappointing. We don't have much choice in what to do, and it feels that our past choices don't matter ; it feels like the only use of war assets is to get that 20 seconds N7 breathing scene in the destroy ending.

But more importantly, it feels like whatever we choose to do in the endings, we don't have any control over what happens. These endings feel disconnected to the rest of the game, and it seems like all we did before doesnt matter. It seems like we don't have ANY control over the endings. We are presented with silly and impossible choices that all end in disaster.

It always seemed to me that the Mass Effect trilogy was MY trilogy, and by that I mean that I felt that it was MY story I was playing, with MY choices, MY decisions and MY ending. But while the rest of the games reflect that quite well, the ME3 endings don't. If I want a happy ending, then I should be able to get it. If I want a bad ending, then I should be able to get it. If I want a bittersweet ending, then I should be able to get it. If I want to and ending where Shepard reunites with his / her love interest, then I should be able to get it. But it should be the player's choice. I want endings that reflect my choices, that reflect how I played through the game, what sidequest I did, what decisions I took. 

Mass Effect 2 succeeded quite well in that matter. According to your choices throughout the game, to your decisions, the suicide mission could have many different endings. Everyone could die, Shepard could die, Some crew members could die, but all was a reflection of YOUR choices : Did I get enough upgrades before heading through the relay ? Did I secure the loyalty of my crew ? Nah screw miranda and her sister, I don't like her. Oh legion seems expendable enough, being a geth platform and all. Yeah, I'll send him into that vent, that way I can spare to leave him behind should this plan go wrong... Who shall hold the line ? Who shall escort the refugees back to the normandy ? By the way, was I quick enough to rescue my abducted crew ?

The suicide mission could go from miraculous success, to utter disaster. But it was all your choice.

I just don't understand why ME3 endings don't follow a similar logic. It would be so much more satisfying. So much better.

I truly believed, and somehow still believes, that those current endings were (are?) all part of some Bioware's masterplan. Some sort of metagame trick to make the players feel what it's like to be indoctrinated, by making them play through an ending that feels strangely amiss and disconnected, an ending that makes players feel out of touch and powerless, as if losing control because of indoctrination. And then announcing that an expansion pack / dlc / content patch was coming, which would contain several new hours of endgame gameplay and scenario, complete with many new choices, and more conclusive and satisfying endings to the story, over which we would have complete control.
This made ( still makes?) sense to me. I think it would be an incredibly audacious move, that would really push the boundaries of video game immersion to where they have never been pushed before. Plus, it would make for an amazing advertising coup for the game, not to mention the profit should this expansion pack/dlc/patch not be free.
Such a coup would have (will?) be remembered as something incredibely grand and audacious in my opinion.


TL ; DR

I'm sorry for the wall of text, but I really wanted to give my heartfelt opinion. If you read it, I hope I made some interesting points.

If you don't feel like reading everything I wrote (and I wouldn't blame you ), then consider reading my last point, about giving players control over their endings. Though it doesnt sum up everything I said, I sincerely feel I made some interestingremarks.

Again, all of this is my honest and heartfelt opinion. I don't seek to convince anyone, I just wanted to do justice to my passion for the Mass Effect saga by writing my opinion down in a place where it matters, in hope that it will be heard.

Thank you.

Modifié par Arkhn7, 18 mars 2012 - 02:08 .

[lilyforthewin]

My only suggestion for changes to ME3 would be a more definitive ending.  At the time I played the game, I was devastated by the ending, by how it seemed nothing I chose to do with my game mattered.  In light of recent interpretations of the ending as being "indoctrination" and occurring in Shepard's mine, I find the ending less bleak but no less unsatisfying.

Frankly, I've invested hundreds of hours of my life into this series, have hundreds of savegame files to go back to to check and recheck that I made the "right" decisions for my Shepard.  I wanted to see things through, to know how my actions would impact the galaxy.  And ultimately, that moment never came.

I was prepared for a bad ending - in my mind I had already accepted Shepard's death as a probable inevitability, but I was OK with that.  What I was not OK with was a cliffhanger, which is what I got.  This is a trilogy - you wrap up the loose threads in a trilogy, you don't leave a million unanswered questions.  A few basic examples of these are: what happens to everybody on Earth?  To all the alien races fighting in orbit?  Does Shepard live, or what?

I don't think it's unreasonable to be upset that the ending feels like it was just chopped off prematurely and to want answers.  I hope Bioware can provide some in the near future.

The rest of the game--everything leading up to those final scenes on the citadel--was absolutely perfect.  I laughed and cried and cheered and I couldn't tear myself away from the game.  Contrast that to when I got up to the citadel and basically turned off the game before I saw the ending, it was so emotionally destructive. 

A little bit of closure is all I'm looking for in the ending.

[dahilla]

First of all, we do appreciate the opportunity to talk about this. We do. We are not trying to be on the opposing fron, we are not trying to be the enemy. We are all clearly here because of Bioware's great work, not in spite of it. It's the trust we have had in you guys that allows us to hope this is all more than a blatant smokescreen, and that you do really listen. Not just listen for this to die down.

Now, if anything in my post sounds vaguely antagonistic, it's not a tone I chose, but one that was pounded into me for ten arduous minutes, while I watched a scripted, nonsensical, utterly disappointing placeholder of an ending.

Onto the meritum:

An ending reflecting choices made in the entire series would've been great. Several different endings based on those choices would've been incredible. An actual epilogue to the story itself, building on the foundations of our experience and perhaps opening a door for the future, even if only for one's own imagination, would've been perfect.

I hoped for perfection. I was prepared for greatness. I got a slap in the face.

Let's have an ending that makes sense, shall we?

1. GodChild - for decency's sake, do away with that, please. Were I to imagine, prior to actually seeing the ending myself, the most horrible cliché to wrap the entire series up with - even were I offered a vast sum of money for this highly questionable "effort" - still could I not have thought to end everything with a pretentious, vague and nonsensical deus-ex-machina (literally) überkid. A virtual überkid, even. The same applies for the Stargazer shtick at the end, but this has had to have been a joke I'm simply not getting, so I'm not touching this at all.

2. Closure - seeing the entire galactic civilization effectively wiped out (without the relays, the economy has no way of functioning, especially not in a post-war enviro... wait, we all know this alredy, no point in repeating) is not an ending anyone would choose consciously, especially if this is exactly what they were fighting agains the entire time. I can do with a dark ending, or a bittersweet one, but don't force me into choosing between failing in Blue, Green or Red, and expect me to be at peace with it. This scene (and the term "scene" applies to basically everything post-beam) is just... wrong.

3. Consequence - didn't you guys say yourself, that the destruction of the relays would mean and end to the star system? Not a hypotethical one, but a very real, instant end? Yes you did. So, again, why would we want to go ahead and do that? What was all the fighting about, just to pull the plug orselves? I can deal with Shep simply not making it in time - anticlimatic and disappointing, but at least feasible. But going to hell and back (then again, and back) just to do... that? Um, no.

4. Normandy - what on earth (or whatever) is the Normandy running from? How did it even get out of Earth's orbit? When did it leave the battle? How did Shep's squad manage to get onboard? Where does it crash? Why does it crash? What was the point of this scene? How would the (already terrible, I'm sorry, but it is) ending be diminished, if that scene was never made?

You know... As I'm typing all of this, I'm starting to lose motivation. The fact the entire story and premise you guys created was done away with is such a blatantly disinterested and careless manner speaks volumes more than I could here. And I'm quite certain we're all just repeating ourselves and, just like the Normandy crashed on the magical notEarth, we are alone in an universe of DoNotCare Incorporated's silence. Therefore, just one final point, which actually is the crux of the entrie matter:

100. Choice - You've given us choice in regards to the path so far. Hell, you've given us choice on Shep's appearance, morality, gender, ideology, values and history (obviously, not necessarily in that order). We were free to choose, in a limited frame, naturally, how to resolve the most trivial of situations. And in this - the literally final minutes of the entire story - suddenly we're presented with predefined options leading to an outcome few (I'm not saying "none", I do acknowledge we all have differing tastes) would have chosen of their own free will? You've made incredible effort during the entire series to make this Our Story, the developers', the writers', and the players' alike. Then in the end, it's just yours again. Had I known, I would preferred to not have played. At least ME3.

And then, after all of this is done, I'm told to buy a DLC and continue to "build the legend". Seriously, I'd rather not.

So, to sum up a much too long post I'm probably the only person reading in its entirety - if we didn't all love the story you let us participate in, in the first place, we wouldn't be having this conversation. As a writer I used to like once said - "When people (as in - readers) show up at the panels, the meetings, and object, argue and discuss, and you have to defend and explain every character - it's a wonderful thing. If no one comes to tell you what they didn't like - find a different occupation."

We did all enjoy ME enough to now be angry. It's a great enough story to actually have us care about how it ends. I'm hoping we're not the only ones, though.

peace

[Zhor2395]

Reign Tsumiraki wrote...

 Ah, perfect! I already wrote up what I think would solve the problem...

*copypasta*

1.  Only change the ending starting from the last scene with Anderson/Shepard/TIM. Everything about the ending before that stays the same, with a few changes. 

2. Completely ignore the God-child-spirit. It conflicts and contradicts the "Protheans fooled the citadel" basis in ME1. This was important. Cut it out entirely.

3. Make several choices based off of war readiness, and how many assets went into the Crucible. Such as:

Very low: Launch a giant EMP burst that destroys all Reapers, AI, Citadel, Relays, most technology, ect, as well as sacrificing earth. Shepard dies. Normandy crashes, and everyone aboard dies.

Low: Same, but without damage to earth. Shepard dies. Normandy Crashes. Crew dies.

Medium-low: Burst that only destroys all AI. Shepard dies. Normandy Crashes, Crew dies.

Medium: Burst that destroys all AI in the Sol system, and the Reapers. This allows the Geth to live, but EDI dies. Saves the Relays, but not the citadel. Shepard dies. Normandy crashes, crew survives.

High-Medium: Releases a burst that disables the Reaper Shields across the galaxy, allowing the fleet to easily kill the rest(Reapers are weak without their shields, as ME1 shows. A single torpedo from the Normandy killed Sovereign without it's shields) Shepard lives. Normandy damaged, but does not crash, and the player is treated to a small cutscene of the Normandy and the fleet blowing up a few reapers. 

High: Sends out a burst attuned to the Reaper core (The Geth provide the information. They studied reapers, remember. If they are not available, the Quarians provide it, having researched the Reaper corpse on their planet) causing the Reapers' reactors to overload and die. However, the Reaper core just happens to be identical to the Core of the Citadel as well. The Citadel overloads and blows up. Shepard lives. Relays stay intact. Player is treated to a cutscene of the Reapers blowing up, troops on the ground rejoicing, as well as the Normandy picking him and Anderson's body up before Citadel explodes.


Very-high: Sends out a pulse that kills only Reapers. All tech stays intact. Shepard lives. Relays intact. Citadel intact. Player is treated to the cutscene above, minus the citadel explosion. 

In addition, the endings shown in the "original" game would be available. These would be available on the left side of the dialogue wheel, while the ones I have proposed would be on the right. Synthesis would be unlocked at the Very-High level, and Control would be unlocked at the High-Medium level. Destroy would be available no matter what.

To complete the Synthesis, Destroy, or Control ending, the player takes the elevator up to where the Original ending takes place. This way, they do not have to design an entirely new environment. The animations and flashbacks for these endings would stay the same. The only difference in the cutscene after this would be no Normandy crash.

The options of the three highest unlocked options would show up on the right of the wheel on the right side. For instance, someone who had Medium assets would get the option of killing all AI everywhere, all AI in the Sol system, or all technology everywhere without damage to earth.

The dialogue wheel would look like this, if someone had 100% of all assets.
                                Synthesis              Take down Sheilds
                                                __________/ 
                                               (                       )
                 Destroy    --------(                          ) ---Kill reapers, Destroy Citadel
                                               (                       )
                                                -----------------
                                               /                      
                                      Control                Kill all Reapers
4. Include a small, text and scene ending. Small clips of certain occations from the various decisions made will show. This will vary by ending.

EXAMPLE: Geth and Quarians rebuilding, all species rebuilding the invaded home planets, ect.

5. A small scene with Anderson and Shepard before Anderson dies, about what Shepard will do if the Crucible works. Shepard can then respond in a variety of ways depending on what options he is presented with because of the war assets claimed. Anderson then says the whole "I'm proud of you" spiel, wishes you luck, then dies.

EXAMPLE: 

Retiring and living in peace, finally, with LI(or alone, if that is the case).

Saying “This device will probably destroy the citadel and kill us, so it does not matter.”

Continue to pursue peace and justice as a Spectre.

Become a diplomat/politician and guide humanity

Ect.

6. Any teammates that were with you at the time you got shot by the reaper will run towards the teleport-beam and make it to the Citadel ahead of you, thinking that you died, and that they need to finish what you started. Upon arriving there, you meet up with them and get to the console. They also get manipulated by TIM, but only you are able to "break free" by shooting or talking down TIM. 



Anyway, that's my whole view on it. 


THIS WAY:  
Players can get the endings they want, the player can still sacrifice themselves to get the endings they want, the Devs can have the endings they want, and originally intended. The only thing this really cuts is the stupid spectral Ghost-child-God thing, which was ridiculous in the first place. 

How does this sound? I tried to address every concern and viewpoint, and combine them into one good ending that I think would please everyone. 

I support this notion

[firstarioch]

Hello
This video articulates everything I would otherwise have to say . I think many people have brought it up already .



Please sort it out . MASS EFFECT Is SPACE OPERA.
Game was bleak and dark with deaths and sacrifices throughout we want some light .We want a happy ending where SHEpard Lives with His LI as well as few more endings so we can experience them by doing different play-throughs.
What you delivered is like RETURN OF THE JEDI but LUKE dies by his FAther then emperor KILLS VADER ,HAN and LEIA die as well and at the end EWOKS and that lone pilot are left to light the fires.

Modifié par firstarioch, 17 mars 2012 - 04:07 .

[scrapmetals]

It was kind of a slap in the face to female gamers to not get any new romance options.

Let me explain what I mean.

You made all the male crewmembers bi, but none of the females (you're telling me Jack and Tali aren't bisexual? Jack is the most bisexual woman I have ever seen, and Tali is Shepsexual, no matter if you're playing male or female).

The only new romances for women are women (and who wants to romance Allers? She was the worst character decision you guys ever made, her character was ugly, and Chobot did an awful job - if she doesn't know how to voice act, YOU SHOULDN'T HAVE HIRED HER).

Jacob was a horrible idea. If you're going to go with the idea that "Well, not every romance works", fine. Make it so if you do so many things your LI doesn't like, no matter who that LI is, they leave you. Don't make it so that just ONE leaves you permanently and you can NEVER get him back. That's horrible. Even if you don't like Jacob, that's just horrible.

Why the hell do you have flirting with Vega if he isn't going to be romanceable? He's the PERFECT hetero option for women, and so is JOKER, but you force Joker into a romance with your second (and only) worst mistake for a character (which I will not get into here, and no, I don't dislike EDI, she was awesome in 2, but she was so obnoxious in 3) and tease with Vega, which is unacceptable.

Not all female gamers are lesbian and we shouldn't have to choose from only lesbian/bi options if we want something new!

Of course, Bioware, this isn't the only time you've made mistakes with romanceable characters - Varric, anyone?

[EnglishRedneck]

Any chance players who have chosen Miranda as an LI can have a pic of her in Shepard's quarters?