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ME3 Suggested Changes Feedback Thread - Spoilers Allowed


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#2201
HeroicHare

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As i´m writing this I´m very tired so bear with me if my grammar and spelling are not the best kind

Firstly I would like to say that I´ve been a huge fan of the series from the first Mass Effect, and I´ve always enjoyed the games due to their freedom of making the game of my own through choices. I was especially glad when ME2 came out and I noticed that all the choices I made in the first game carried on to ME2. It is this contiuation and sense of choice that made me play the game over and over again and enjoy every moment i spent with it.

Secondly I would like to state that Bioware has always been to me a company that makes quality games and hears what the supporters and fans have to say and I am glad to see that you as a company have acknowledged the fact that quite a few of your loyal supporters have been dissappointed to your newest installment in Mass Effect series. Well when i say newest installment i refer to the last 20 minutes or so of a otherwise brilliant game Mass Effect 3.

Now I´m sure that if you have any kind of media reading skills you have found about what exactly is making all the devoted ME fans so upset. But fear not for it is not too late to make this right. Show us and show all the other greedy companies who are just out there for the short sighted prospect of ripping money from gamers that you still care for your loyal fanbase.

Now on to the matter at hand. The ending of Mass Effect 3. How did it came to be that a game that has always been about choices and complex consequences of those choices became a hollow shell filled with promises that were never kept. What happened to the promises of tying up all the loose ends and that all of our choices from previous games would carry on to the end of the whole saga. You can´t seriously with good say conscience that you have kept your promises.

Now I´m not whining for a rainbow and sunshine end (allthough I´ve always been a sucker for happy endings) I went into that last fight being full aware that there was a big chance my Shepard was never coming out from the fight alive. Whatever the means as long as the Reapers would be destroyed and the galaxy would be rid of their menace for good. What i got instead was basically three choices each worse than the other and not even a slighest chance of being faithful to the model of Shepard that i had played across the three games. Instead i all i got was "you can choose 3 ways to destroy the current civilizations. Pick your color. Hope your enjoyed the game"

Is this really the way you want your epic saga to end. To a sour note that makes the player feel hollow and confused. Because that is exactly how i felt, hollow and confused. I´ve played quite a few games in my lifetime and sure I´ve been sad, happy, puzzled and even angry but never before i have felt so hollow and used after the ending of a game. And even if you wanted to "polarize" people that´s propably the reaction you were hoping. What´s wrong with it? Everything.
In my opinion it was propably best explained here http://www.gamefront...fans-are-right/

How could you make it right? I think Reign Tsumiraki said it the best

Reign Tsumiraki wrote...

1.  Only change the ending starting from the last scene with
Anderson/Shepard/TIM. Everything about the ending before that stays the
same, with a few changes. 

2. Completely ignore the
God-child-spirit. It conflicts and contradicts the "Protheans fooled the
citadel" basis in ME1. This was important. Cut it out entirely.

3. Make several choices based off of war readiness, and how many assets went into the Crucible. Such as:

Very
low: Launch a giant EMP burst that destroys all Reapers, AI, Citadel,
Relays, most technology, ect, as well as sacrificing earth. Shepard
dies. Normandy crashes, and everyone aboard dies.

Low: Same, but without damage to earth. Shepard dies. Normandy Crashes. Crew dies.

Medium-low: Burst that only destroys all AI. Shepard dies. Normandy Crashes, Crew dies.

Medium:
Burst that destroys all AI in the Sol system, and the Reapers. This
allows the Geth to live, but EDI dies. Saves the Relays, but not the
citadel. Shepard dies. Normandy crashes, crew survives.

High-Medium:
Releases a burst that disables the Reaper Shields across the galaxy,
allowing the fleet to easily kill the rest(Reapers are weak without
their shields, as ME1 shows. A single torpedo from the Normandy killed
Sovereign without it's shields) Shepard lives. Normandy damaged, but
does not crash, and the player is treated to a small cutscene of the
Normandy and the fleet blowing up a few reapers. 

High: Sends out
a burst attuned to the Reaper core (The Geth provide the information.
They studied reapers, remember. If they are not available, the Quarians
provide it, having researched the Reaper corpse on their planet) causing
the Reapers' reactors to overload and die. However, the Reaper core
just happens to be identical to the Core of the Citadel as well. The
Citadel overloads and blows up. Shepard lives. Relays stay intact.
Player is treated to a cutscene of the Reapers blowing up, troops on the
ground rejoicing, as well as the Normandy picking him and Anderson's
body up before Citadel explodes.


Very-high: Sends out a pulse
that kills only Reapers. All tech stays intact. Shepard lives. Relays
intact. Citadel intact. Player is treated to the cutscene above, minus
the citadel explosion. 

In addition, the endings shown in the
"original" game would be available. These would be available on the left
side of the dialogue wheel, while the ones I have proposed would be on
the right. Synthesis would be unlocked at the Very-High level, and
Control would be unlocked at the High-Medium level. Destroy would be
available no matter what.

To complete the Synthesis, Destroy, or
Control ending, the player takes the elevator up to where the Original
ending takes place. This way, they do not have to design an entirely new
environment. The animations and flashbacks for these endings would stay
the same. The only difference in the cutscene after this would be no
Normandy crash.

The options of the three highest unlocked options
would show up on the right of the wheel on the right side. For
instance, someone who had Medium assets would get the option of killing
all AI everywhere, all AI in the Sol system, or all technology
everywhere without damage to earth.

The dialogue wheel would look like this, if someone had 100% of all assets.
                                Synthesis              Take down Sheilds
                                                __________/ 
                                               (                       )
                 Destroy    --------(                          ) ---Kill reapers, Destroy Citadel
                                               (                       )
                                                -----------------
                                               /                       \\
                                      Control                Kill all Reapers
4.
Include a small, text and scene ending. Small clips of certain
occations from the various decisions made will show. This will vary by
ending.

EXAMPLE: Geth and Quarians rebuilding, all species rebuilding the invaded home planets, ect.

5.
A small scene with Anderson and Shepard before Anderson dies, about
what Shepard will do if the Crucible works. Shepard can then respond in a
variety of ways depending on what options he is presented with because
of the war assets claimed. Anderson then says the whole "I'm proud of
you" spiel, wishes you luck, then dies.

EXAMPLE: 

Retiring and living in peace, finally, with LI(or alone, if that is the case).

Saying “This device will probably destroy the citadel and kill us, so it does not matter.”

Continue to pursue peace and justice as a Spectre.

Become a diplomat/politician and guide humanity

Ect.

6.
Any teammates that were with you at the time you got shot by the reaper
will run towards the teleport-beam and make it to the Citadel ahead of
you, thinking that you died, and that they need to finish what you
started. Upon arriving there, you meet up with them and get to the
console. They also get manipulated by TIM, but only you are able to
"break free" by shooting or talking down TIM.


Now i apologize for quoting all the key points but when it has been said well, theres need to repeat it.

I thank you for you time and I hope that you would consider all the feedback that your fans send and then do the right thing.

#2202
Jago360

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adidaz wrote...

Virgl wrote...

 Thanks!!!! You have no idea how happy we are that someone is finally asking!!!! I felt that the romance (mostly conversations) were pretty weak. I held a continued love interest with Liara as maleshep and there were only 5 main romance convos, the rest seemed that she forgot you two had been together since me1, Me2, and lotsb. I really cant emphasize enough how much the romance part of the game appeals to us! It would be nice to get an ending where you could settle down, get married, have kids, a house, and instead of scripted hugging and kissing and other forms of embracing, why not simply give the player the choice to do those things whenever??? It has worked in fable 1,2, & 3. With an ending dlc should come that chance to take part in something that is toned down from all of the battle and war, something peaceful, fun, and heart warming.


+1

Yep, well written! 

#2203
Babyberry

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ElectronicFerret wrote...

This:

http://i.imgur.com/JhtqY.jpg


With some closure afterwards, would be amazing.


I changed my mind. Whatever I said about War Assets has changed to this. Please impliment these suggestions!

#2204
Syrdeth

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SaintlPatrick wrote...

http://i.imgur.com/JhtqY.jpg


This. This is the sort of thing I would support. Would make our choices matter.

#2205
Squirrely Jedi

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At this point I don't feel I have anything very new to say. I do think endings with more varied outcomes (from happily ever after to total party death) that somehow can sum up a bit more what happens as a result of the choice made (perhaps a la Dragon Age: Origins) were probably more along the lines of what we were expecting. I think then, even if the news is bad, there's at least more of a sense of conclusion. Maybe it's silly to want to see marriage and a lot of little blue children, but I think a lot of people don't play games to be reminded how crappy the world is. On the other hand, I can see the sacrifice as being a noble, if sad, end, but what we're given in the current endings doesn't really make the repercussions clear, in my opinion.

I would also like to see the option to have more conversation with this child VI, if this is our final "boss" confrontation, and perhaps even the option to not accept its offered options. That whole moment seemed so un-Shepard to me -- to go that far and then just take what that child said at face value. I realized after a few minutes of sitting there in stunned silence that I honestly didn't care what ending happened at that point.

When I played through the game (I haven't turned my PC on since, so it was only once), I also for some reason could not do the last persuade dialog option with TIM, even though I'm 99.99% sure my rep bar was full. And as a Paragon Shepard, I did not like that taking a Renegade action was the only way to stay alive at that point. But I guess that's a minor point.

The Mass Effect series is really quite amazing, and I just wish there was more to the end. Thanks for listening.

#2206
kylehasnobutt

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I'm in agreement with most people who've posted in this thread. Everything leading up to the ending was fantastic, superb even. However, everything past the Anderson conversation and Shepard's rise to the Crucible doesn't make sense, and everything subsequent to that. There's no sense of closure from any of the endings, there isn't any variation between them (mass relays are destroyed regardless of the ending you choose, same ending animations with the change in colours), and there isn't a sense of accomplishment after it, nor do our decisions really impact the ending, which we were told they would.

The game was so good; it's painful to see the last 10 minutes come short of everything it could have been.

#2207
Law8519

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Since when has a happy ending been cliche? If anything making the main hero die is a cliche.
I love ME and have invested so much into this game it is unbelieveable!
I want more choice in my endings and to at least have a shot at a happy ending. I want to reunite with Kaiden and my crew.I have no idea why the dark energy plot didn't play out it made more sense. Anyway that is irelevant i guess.
Back to what i think should happen. We should get the multiple endings we were promised not the same ending 3 times over with a blast of different coloured lights we need to have closure so an epilogue is needed to show what difference our decisions have made instead of the weak old man telling a kid about the Shepard.
I need an explanation what this weird alien space god child is. It has no relevance and is totally out of place in ME it goes against the lore of the whole game. Why was Joker running away? Why were my squadmates magically teleported to the Normandy when they were just on Earth with me? Why are all relays destroyed basically stranding everyone on Earth and effectively killing off all life in the long run. Bittersweet? Lots of bitter zero sweet. Haven't explained myself very well in this post so i shall re post tommorrow with a bit more detail.

#2208
stcalvin13

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I think there need to be more options at the end.
I think the end needs to deal with the theme of the first two games (and much of the third): Human relations with everyone else.
That is, I want the option to dominant the rest of the galaxy.
And I want the option to sacrifice earth/humanity to save the other species.
I want a cheesy ending option.
I want to know what happened to my crew, past and present.
I don't want the galactic society shattered.
I want my choices--not my number of side quests completed--to effect the end of the game.

I know you're probably sick and tired of hearing about the ending, but for me its a condicio sine qua non of my continued engagement with the mass effect franchise.

Here's two other (minor) complaints:
Wrex. I miss you. Please join my squad. Please?
Grenades. Whatever happened to the frisbee grenades from the first game? Much easier to use.

That's it. Everything else was great. GREAT!

#2209
RolandX9

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A more complete ending. "Happy" (i.e. a non-ruined galaxy, life with LI, Normandy survivors aren't stranded on Gilligan's Planet) would be nice -- very, very nice -- but we were never promised one. What we were promised were definitive ones (not to mention multiple endings, and different colors on the reset button do not count). The functionally single ending we got was a reset button that is obviously intended to obviate as many of our choices as possible, and might as well have had "to be continued" at the end of the credits.

Do I want my Shepard to live? Absolutely. I want post-game content with the best game mechanics in the series to date (not without flaw, but superior overall). I want little blue children/super-biotics with Jack/a return to Palaven with Garrus to meet the family, sure, but what I really want is more ME3 with more Shepard. However, more important than that is an actual resolution, a satisfying ending that actually provides closure. What we got instead was...not that.

#2210
The Divine Avenger

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www.youtube.com/watch

This says a lot of the issues people have with the ending of ME3

Me I would like the option of a good ending, I played through every game as Paragon Shepard I think Shep has more than earned some down time with her LI I would like a bitter sweet ending that has the mass relays intact as well as letting Shep live one that would be availible to both Paragon & Renergade Shepard. I'm happy with it being hard to get I'd be more than willing to put the hours into the game if I knew that no matter how dark the night the morning light is on the horizan.

Also the whole buisness with the Normandy crashing on a random world I don't get how you worked out that joker would run away from the fight. The ending right now doesn't make sence, if the indoctrination thing turns out to be true then fair enough but it still doesn't change the fact that all 3 endings are the same with minor tweeks.That go's against everything Mass Effect was made to be, as is mentioned in the above video on Youtube. I would like an ending that allows you the option of shutting down the reapers rather than destroying all AI life in the galaxy. An ending where the reapers win would also be nice, ultimate bad ending of "we've failed" now we all die.

Having some endings where Shepare lives would be in Biowares best interest, if the Mass Effect game's were a game series that had a linear storyline then the whole heroic sacrifice thing wouldn't have caused an uproar. Mass Effect however is not a linear story & it has always been about choice adding the option of a happy(ish) ending would satisfy those of us that arn't goths & don't like things completely dark & depressing to the point that we'd want to hang areselfs.

Modifié par The Divine Avenger, 17 mars 2012 - 10:58 .


#2211
Pelle6666

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What I read in to the whole Catalyst thing is that it is actually a synthetic AI that’s was once created to solve the repeated problems with people creating synthetics and then go to war against them. The solution it comes up with is the harvesting cycles based on the presumption that all synthetics will sooner or later rebel against their creators and try to kill them all. And based on this presumption it rebels against its own creators and lets the reapers harvest them.
This is how I understood it any way and I think that it would have made sense as long as it had been explained more in the dialog between the Catalyst and Shepard. It should also be more obvious that the Catalyst’s programing does not take in to the equation the complex emotions and relations between the galactic races and individuals. It is a cold and heartless machine even if Shepard sees it as the little kid from earth.

The dialog between the two is not good at all, I’m afraid. Shepard loses his entire personality and all that have made him into such a heroic figure just fades away. I feel the same way about the three choices and the final cut scene.
Therefore I took some time to write a suggestion for a different ending which is how I would have wanted and kind of expected the story to end.

First of all there should be more options in the dialog especially “investigate” options but also “renegade/paragon” options. The fact that Shepard accepts the three alternatives is completely outrages. I want him to be able to argue with the Catalyst that the geth actually showed mercy on the quarians when they lost their home world. Also that the geth are in the fleet (if that is the case) that is fighting against the reapers, he should also be able to prove that synthetics and organics can live together by pointing out the relationship between Joker and Ede – that an AI actually programed itself to love. Legion’s self-sacrifice deserves a mentioning here as well.

The way I imagine it this new information would make no sense to the Catalyst who have used its original programing for thousands of centuries and doomed civilizations to extinction time after time. In a try to grasp the concept of love and respect its vast database overheats and it loses control over the reapers. They stop answering fire and the armada appears to get the over hand in the battle.
Maybe there could be a cut scene that shows the battlefields on the occupied planets where the reapers also stops and gets destroyed one by one.

Shepard’s com-radio buzzes and admiral Hacket tells him that only Harbinger is active and is headed towards the citadel. He asks Shepard what to do; attack him or try to destroy as many reapers as possible while they have the chance.

If Shepard choose a full attack on Harbinger and that he will deal with the Catalyst and deactivate the reapers he will most likely die while short-circuit the catalyst in some way.
If he chooses to let Harbinger get to the Citadel the Normandy will pick him up but the Citadel will be completely destroyed by Harbinger, who kind of poetically turns on its creator, the Catalyst in an attempt on killing Shepard.

Accompanied by the “leaving earth” track while the Catalyst is repeatedly chanting something along the line of “the data does not match, the data does not match…” Shepard stumbles carry out the deed. Some husks may show up to give the player one last fight to win and then the we’ll get the final cut scene. Harbinger is destroyed or destroys the Citadel, depending on the war assets and the readiness level Shepard may or may not get of the plateau before it explodes.

No mass relays gets destroyed, the Normandy crew is alright and the reapers are defeated with more conventional means.

It would also be fantastic if there was a scene where the Normandy lands on earth, the resistance is cheering and the squad mates are gathered. Shepard is either reunited with them and the one he romanced or they simply honor him in some way for giving his life to save them all.

#2212
RazorrX

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SaintlPatrick wrote...

http://i.imgur.com/JhtqY.jpg


That is not bad really.  There are some things missing (like you can broker peace between quarians and Geth thus having both fleets), but on the whole much closer to what I thought we were going to be getting. 

I also do not much care for the fact that you have made it default that the geth once again fall under reaper control.  That would not necessarily happen as they now have the upgrades that Legion (Who was not under reaper control) had.  Thus the Geth could very well be a part of the fleet and ground combat.

I do hope that what the Crucible does is to actually disable the reaper network and shielding, allowing for a conventional warfare ending.  That would rock.  Once you have made it to the control room on the citadel and opened the door they could show the fleets starting to take out reapers (maybe even have stuff like Miranda and her fighters open a hole for the Destiny Ascention to blast through Harby or something).  Then show the ground forces also taking out reapers (again showing some allies like Wrex, some Geth Primes, etc. taking on a reaper, mowing down the husks, etc. and then Cortez or someone flying in and shooting a thanix missile to take out the reaper).  So much great stuff could happen.  

The 'happy' ending would be pretty much a bittersweet thing if you actually think about it.  The Turian, Asari and Elcor homeworlds are nearly totally lost, earth should be really really messed up if not lost at the end (having had the reapers longer than anyone else).  The galaxy could survive but most governments would possibly collapse, beginning a time of chaos that would take a long time to heal.  The ending could set up for more stuff later where you have warlords in control of some systems, colonies rebuilding, etc.  Earth could claim the Citadel, Pockets of Geth Heretics take some systems, etc.  That would be a cool post Shepard setting.

#2213
Darth Llama

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I'll keep it short and simple because there is a lot of data to sift through.

1. The indoctrination theory works and works well. If that's not already what you're using, please consider it.. it gives an explination to the non-sensical ending we have now and can be continued easily.

2. Provide endings that are both uplifting or sad (Shepard lives/Shepard dies.) This lets people choose how they want to end the legacy. Don't feel you HAVE to kill Shepard, we all understand this is  his/her last game we're not expecting to see him/her in the next game.

3. Optional but would be nice - If Shepard lives, allow some closure with love interest. Example, Meeting Tali on the Quarian homeworld, Being there as Ashley officially becomes a Spectre, Going with Liara to Thessia to help rebuild, etc. If Shepard dies, maybe show his funeral or something like that. A statue of him on Tuchanka, something like that.

Bascially, do what Mass Effect has always done since day 1. Give us a choice, and make it matter. Let us decide and give us the emotional connection you have always given.

Last but not least, know that we protest and complain because we care. If we didn't love Mass Effect then it wouldn't matter. We're not 'haters,' we're the polar opposite. We love this series.

Thank you.

Modifié par Darth Llama, 17 mars 2012 - 10:59 .


#2214
Nephilym83

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SaintlPatrick wrote...

http://i.imgur.com/JhtqY.jpg


YES!  This is exactly the sort of thing I'm hoping to see.  We win or lose, live or die, based on our galactic readiness and the choices we make.  Top it off with scenes of our comrades and allied forces doing their part against the reapers and bring it home with some thorough closure for all the characters we know and love, and THEN you'll have the kind of ending that will do this franchise justice.  Also, leave out the catalyst and the reapers' idiotic motives.  Either come up with something that makes sense or let it remain a mystery.  The reapers are "unknowable" after all.  Don't make Sovereign a liar.

#2215
Pedro Costa

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Lehna wrote...

acidic-ph0 wrote...

Amdnro wrote...


SaintlPatrick wrote...

http://i.imgur.com/JhtqY.jpg


This is PERFECT! Support :)


A VERY helpful graphic! I support this too!


Same here. I guess everyone was expecting these kind of endings.

Yes, exactly.
In other words, it takes what was done properly with ME2 and turns it up to eleven (in the VERY good way).

#2216
ahandsomeshark

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Also I think someone mentioned this before in regards to slam but there seem to be random times when powers don't do any damage despite being direct hits even when the enemy doesn't have any type of armor/shield/barrier. I don't know if that's an glitch or what.

#2217
Tancho

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First, I would like to acknowledge something:

Regardless of the rage, less-than-civil complaints and disrespectful mocking that has plagued this 'controversy', I would like to say, first and foremost, 'Well done.'

Before I share my confusion regarding the endings, I'd like to offer praise. Even if my thoughts on the ending are lost in the thread, I sincerely hope you see the gratitude I have to offer.

The game was beautiful. I was skeptical of the 'it's the journey, not the destination' idea at first. After playing the game and comparing notes with friends who played it very differently than me, I can say with confidence that the journey was a work of art. While I expected a few different choices for every situation, I was astounded to hear the many different paths my friends chose. We texted each other throughout our playthrough, and I was constantly blown away by the unique and detailed choices my friends were able to make.

Not only that, but the dialogue truly honors the player's choices. For instance, I have heard several variations of the dialogue you can have with Liara - all of it depending on your interactions (or lack thereof) with her throughout the series. And it's not one or two differences, but multiple.

Furthermore, the battle scenes made me feel, for the first time, as though I were a soldier in a battle field. Everything from the swarming of enemies, to the extreme detail in the background (especially on Palaven's moon...goodness gracious) of every battle. On several occasions, my roommates, who do not play video games whatsoever, would come in and just watch. For hours. Not only was it incredible to play, but even people who do not usually enjoy this medium found it enthralling. Given that my roommates are PHD's and pretty serious people, I'd say that is a very good sign.

So, cheers Bioware. The journey was simply incredible. I could not have asked for a better game.

In regards to the ending (and I want to keep the praise going here), I'm probably not as passionately angry as some. I was certainly confused and did feel slightly empty-handed, but not because the ending wasn't 'happy'.

To me, the idea of Shepard sacrificing herself (Femshep reporting in) for the sake of the current inhabitants of the galaxy, but also the millions of years to come, is overwhelming. Honestly, when I first thought about how many cycles preceded Shepard's and how many would go on to live uninterrupted lives as a result, I found it difficult to fully comprehend. Not only did I expect sacrifice, but I loved the beauty of new life coming from brokenness.

However, I do not feel that the last ten minutes did the idea of 'bittersweet' justice. The ideas are brilliant, but perhaps not fully delivered. The Catalyst's sudden appearance and brief dialogue made the ending feel rushed. I read somewhere (and I could be totally wrong) that the decision was made to withhold information such as 'how long the Reapers have been reaping'. To me, that type of information would have impacted the weight of Shepard's sacrifice greatly. For instance, if we knew how far back this trail of bloodshed goes - if we knew how many generations of 'Shepards' had been preparing the Crucible and fighting back - it would have created...awe. For Shepard to be the last in a long line of civilizations that had fought back and paid it forward so that she could finally end the cycle...that is just...well, a lot. The more information we are given, the greater the weight of our decisions. The more we know, the more we understand that we are standing on the blood and sweat of a million civilizations who fought to bring us to this incredible moment.

With that being said, I am also severely confused as to the fate of the Normandy. Don't get me wrong - I'm definitely a 'little blue children' camper - but even if that cannot happen, I still don't understand how my squadmates made it to the Normandy, why Joker seemed to be making a jump in the middle of the most important battle of all time, and where the landed. When you think about the loneliness and the utter unknowing - if they are truly trapped and never find closure for the aftermath in some form - it just seems like a lose. Perhaps that's the bitter side of the ending, which I may be inclined to live with, but regardless - the plot holes make it harder to swallow.

A final thought: life, in general, has taught me a lot about 'bittersweet'. I am constantly having to lose, experience death and work through pain in order to find something new and beautiful. Bittersweet is reality and the more that I accept the beauty, the more that I live well.

But...I love video games. I love books, art...I love expression that can empower and lend hope. Storytelling has the ability to send people away feeling as though they conquered something difficult - it can empower and lend hope. I can't tell you the joy I get from finishing the Harry Potter series - there was death, but there was also victory. I walk into my day holding that joy. It's inspiring and worthwhile. Storytelling is part of our heritage as humans and there's nothing silly or immature about how it affects us.

Mass Effect 3's ending is impacting people. It's beautiful, but perhaps not fully delivered. It's bittersweet, but perhaps the plot holes create confusion, and the confusion creates a sense of loss. I get sacrifice - it's part of life. But I think the ending can be even more victorious and inspiring, even if it remains within confines of the current writing.

I have a great deal of faith in Bioware. You are an excellent team of interactive storytellers. I have faith that you were trying to create victory and inspiration. I want you to know that you've done a great job, but perhaps, like any other thing we create, it could be improved.

And, a little fan girl whimpering - I'd love to see the flags fixed in the Liara dialogue (when she talks about you not being together for years despite LotSB ). Maybe bondmate stuff. Aaaah.

If you've made it this far, thanks for hanging on.

Cheers!

#2218
DocMadfox

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SaintlPatrick wrote...

http://i.imgur.com/JhtqY.jpg


You are brilliant and Bioware should hire you to plan this stuff out good sir.

#2219
Nyctyris

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Babyberry wrote...

ElectronicFerret wrote...

This:

http://i.imgur.com/JhtqY.jpg


With some closure afterwards, would be amazing.


I changed my mind. Whatever I said about War Assets has changed to this. Please impliment these suggestions!



In the name of all that is holy, please implement this!

#2220
ilevakam117

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This flowchart I found pretty much in detail describes the ending most of us would want IMO

h9.abload.de/img/jhtqyrqxxg.jpg

#2221
DarkSpider88

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Thank you for at least hearing us fans out. I don't if anything will come of this but it is nice that your listening.

1. One of the main problems with the ending for me is that I felt like a spectator. When the star child tells you his logic Shepard should be able to try to refute his logic.

a. Talk about humanizing edi and uniting Geth and Quarians.
b. Just because the child's logic happened to his race does not mean that the current civilizations will go that far.
c. Even if what the Star Child's logic does come to pass, it should still be up to the galaxy to decide their own fate, not be given one.
d. Even though Shepard go to choose they are all still answers apporved by the Reapers, something about rubs me the wrong way.

2. I don't want to speculate.

a. Sorry been playing 3 games now I want to know the history of the Reapers, heck if the Star Child stays tell me mre about his people. Have him implant memory flashes into Shepard, show us why he created the Reapers.

b. This has been stated to be the last game in series, no more stories taking place after the events of 3. I don't want to guess if my crew gets off Gilligan's Planet. Please show me how they get off or leave them on Earth.

c. Show me flashes to the future. Whether the Krogan got a new planet and whether they became good citizens. Was Wrex able to lead them. Did the Geth and Quarians maintain peace? Did the Asari rebuild Thessia?

3. Squadmates
a. I'll take text epilogue, give me some real closure on these characters you have made me grow close too.

4. LI
-If Shepard dies how do they cope. Again even text epilogue works.
-If Shepard lives at least show him with their LI. Sorry you teased my Shepard and Liara living on a distant planet in peace, I want to see that.

The above are what I would like to see but overall just don't give us plotholes and speculation.

#2222
Agremont2

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I would like the endings to be varied and based on your decisions throughout the series, as said in interviews. They don't necessarily have to be happy. I would also like the plotholes to be cleared out. Why was Normandy running? Why are my squadmates suddenly and unexplainably onboard? Why didn't I see Tali in the flashbacks when she was my LI? Why did Shepard act so out of character?

Also, I'd rather the starchild be removed, or at the very least rewritten. It doesn't make any sense and doesn't fit in Mass Effect style or quality-wise.

Finaly, it would be nice with at least some closure. Have we destroyed Earth, Palaven, Thessia etc by blowing up the mass relays? Why did we have to? How did the coloured energy do what it did?

I think I've covered most of my problems with the endings and I think many share my views. Thank you for listening.

Modifié par Agremont2, 17 mars 2012 - 11:12 .


#2223
Zofiya

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To preface: I am so happy that this discussion is even a possibility. I am already more enthusiastic about the game itself, and about BioWare as a company. I already commented in the review thread to express what I loved most about the game (there was a lot of it), so here I will focus on what I think needs to be changed.

My main complaint with ME3 has always been, and remains, the lack of closure and catharsis after the climax. Mass Effect is not just one story, it encompasses many smaller stories, and the game did such a good job of resolving them. I lost Mordin, Thane, and Legion, and I was so sad each time, but I was okay with it, I felt like their deaths were meaningful. In London, I got to say goodbye to my crew, and even though the situation was tense, I knew what was coming, and I was ready for it.

If the game had ended with Shepard and Anderson on the Citadel, sitting together -- especially with the dialogue that was cut -- while the fleet finished the battle outside, that would have been a spectacular ending. Picture this: Anderson dies, Shepard looks outside to see the fleet losing badly, and then succumbs to his/her injuries, at which point we see the Crucible activate, and the fleet turns the battle around; later, the rescue team shows up, but it's too late; the epilogue shows the funeral(s), details what happens to the other species, and what happens to any surviving crew members. That ending would have been bittersweet, and I would have sobbed later, but it would have been something worth remembering.

But it didn't end there. Instead, we got dragged into a nonsensical lecture by Star Child, railroaded into an out-of-character choice, and left in the lurch, with a multitude of questions and no hope for answers.

1) Star Child / Guardian / Catalyst

I do not oppose Star Child's inclusion in the game. However, its presence raises a lot of questions, none of which are satisfactorily answered:

- What is Star Child? Is it an AI? VI? Spirit? Deity? Hallucination? Is it beneficent, malevolent, or truly neutral?
- Who created Star Child, and why? Is it the first Reaper, or are the Reapers completely unrelated in origin, created only as the "solution"?
- Why is it Star Child's task to find, as it says, a solution to chaos? (I'm not sure if this was meant to be profound, but it sounds like mad scientist reasoning and I cannot take it seriously.)
- Why does Star Child care so much about organics, even when it is completely incapable of seeing what it is that is wonderful about life (clue: being turned into genetic goop and uploaded into an enslaved machine is the antithesis of life)? What exactly is bad about synthetics wiping out organic life? This seems to imply that organic life has some intrinsic value that makes it more important than synthetic life, but this idea is negated by the Synthesis ending.
- What happened to convince Star Child that organic/synthetic conflict is inevitable? This is probably related to the reason for its creation, but since Star Child is adamant that this is the ultimate truth, why does it think that?
- Why is Star Child's thinking so limited? It says that it couldn't see other possibilities until the Citadel merged with the Crucible -- is this a design flaw, or intentional in its programming? Doesn't this limitation prove that Star Child might be wrong in the assertion that conflict is inevitable?

No one likes a smug god-child, and when Star Child talks down to Shepard, it is like the writers are talking down to the audience. If Star Child remains in the game, we have questions. We need to be able to ask them, and to get serious answers, so that when we make our final choice, it feels like an informed decision.

1a) Space Magic

Related to the issue of Star Child is the question of the Crucible, and what it does.

Please, please, please fix this plot hole.

As far as I can tell, when Shepard activates the Crucible, it uses his/her "energy" -- and what does that mean, anyway? -- to send some sort of signal though the relays, which then overload, and this energy also destroys Reapers/Reaper tech (but not necessarily anything else), exerts psychic control over the Reapers, or -- and this is the worst offender -- somehow rewrites the laws of biology and restructures matter on at least a molecular level in order to turn all life into synthetic hybrids.

This does not make any sense. In a game where we willing accept eezo, relays, biotics, infinite ammo, genocidal space machines, mind control, cybernetic resurrection, and Elcor Hamlet, the line is drawn at space magic.

I've said, and seen others say, that what the Crucible does for most of the game is bring people together. And maybe that is its ultimate purpose: to help Shepard assemble the largest fleet in galactic history. Maybe it can do something else cool, like disable Star Child, or disrupt Reaper communication/ shields/ weaponry, which allows the fleet to finish the job. If you want a more philosophical ending, maybe the Crucible is just a test, to get people to work together long enough to complete it -- cliche, yes, but at least it's not space magic.

2) Railroaded Choices

Mass Effect is billed as a game about choices, and for the most part, it fulfills that promise. Big choices, like saving or abandoning the Council in ME1 have a big impact. Small choices, like saving Shiala, have a small impact. I love that even seemingly inconsequential choices and interactions can pay off in the form of dialogue, in-game mail, and war assets.

That's why it hurts to get to the end of the game and feel like none of it mattered.

I don't mind forced choices, but the problem with the choices that Star Child gives Shepard is exactly that: they are Star Child's choices, not Shepard's. The ending is barely interactive; there are no interrupts, no options to argue, or to fight, and that essentially turns Shepard into a passive observer. Shepard, who has an opinion on everything, from whether or not Refund Guy deserves a refund, to whether or not it's okay to kill an entire species for the sake of galactic peace, barely says anything during the entire finale.

What makes this so egregiously out of character is the fact that Shepard spent the last 2.9 games defying all the odds, generally being stubborn and refusing to give in to inevitable or the impossible, and -- most importantly -- spitting in the Reapers' faces. Yet when Shepard finally meets the thing controlling the Reapers, instead of the curbstomp battle we were expecting, Shepard meekly accepts everything Star Child says as absolute truth. What happened to "tell your friends we're coming for them"?

Along with the option to interrogate Star Child for answers, there should be the option to refuse. The paragon option would be to persuade Star Child that it is wrong, maybe even convince it to destroy the Reapers -- or turn the Reapers to our side. The renegade option would be to fight, and destroy Star Child and the Reapers, but not through the Crucible's space magic.

I would love to see a renegade option in which Shepard tells Star Child to take its toys and go to hell, then orders the fleet to destroy the Citadel, with Shepard still inside. Shepard would die, but the sacrifice would allow the fleet to take out the Reaper master control program, and because the decision would not occur in a vacuum, it would be meaningful for the other characters; it would have the emotional impact of Virmire, with all the fallout that entailed.

As per usual, paragon/renegade dialogue should have to be unlocked with reputation.

3) Genuinely Diverse Endings

There are only three endings in ME3, and they are really all variations on a theme: Control (blue), Destroy (red), Synthesis (green). There are small differences, such as who lives or dies in each playthrough, influenced by EMS, and therefore player choices, but this is like saying that you prefer hunter green to emerald green.

As the final game in the trilogy, ME3 should not be constrained by the plot of the next game. We don't have to accomplish a specific goal in order for the story to continue, because the story is over. I'd like to see several options available for story completion, ranging from complete success (relays intact, galaxy safe), to bittersweet victory (relays gone, Shepard dead, everyone else safe), to Pyrrhic victory (relays gone, Earth destroyed, fleet decimated, small colonies safe), to abject failure at extremely low EMS (Shepard dead, fleet destroyed or forced to flee, Reapers harvest galaxy, cycle continues). Failure, of course, would be non-canonical, the way that Shepard dying at the end of ME2 is non-canonical. Options for success would still depend on EMS, as they do already, but how each of these outcomes plays out in the epilogue would be based on how you interact with Star Child, and how prepared you were for the battle. For example:

- Persuade, high EMS: The fleet survives mostly intact, galaxy rebuilds easily because relays and tech are intact.
- Persuade, low EMS: The fleet survives mostly intact, but has difficulty recovering from the losses because everyone is concerned with protecting their own species/planets instead of working together.
- Fight, high EMS: The fleet sustains massive losses, but is able to work together to rebuild quickly.
- Fight, low EMS: The fleet sustatins massive losses, and open conflict between other species breaks out soon after the war, making rebuilding difficult or impossible.

I'll also say flat out that we should have the option for a happy ending, the same way there was the option for a happy ending in DA:O, which overall was much darker than ME has ever been. It shouldn't be the default ending; it should be difficult to obtain, and require some sacrifice (Remember Virmire? Did you save your LI? Harsh....), but the option should be there. It doesn't have to be a fairy tale ending -- although, fairy tale endings are popular for a reason -- but I would love to see Shepard's crew regrouping and storming the Citadel, arriving just in time, then have a final scene with the LI as they all escape. Something more hopeful than Shepard is dead and your LI is going to die alone on some random planet.

4) Catharsis / Closure / Epilogue

These concepts are all related, but I think they require slightly different solutions.

All the action in London builds up to a critical mass; players get pumped up for the final battle with Harbinger, and when Shepard starts limping toward the Conduit, we know that it's about to be over, one way or another. It feels like the climactic moment, and when we have the final confrontation with the Illusive Man, it's satisfying. When Shepard sits down with Anderson, all that tension that was build up in London starts to drain away -- but it's not the end. When Hackett calls, and Shepard gets on the elevator, we know there's more, and we start getting worked up for the real final battle: Anderson just died, it's time for revenge! Harbinger is going down! Time to kill some Reapers!

But this time, there's no chance to release that tension. We don't get revenge, we don't get the chance to plant a flag in Harbinger's carapace -- we don't get catharsis. Shepard dies, and that's pretty much it.

I'm... not sure how I feel about the decision not to include a Final Boss. I think it would feel anticlimactic to fight Harbinger or Star Child just for the sake of a boss fight, but there is also something innately satisfying about a boss fight, especially one that you know you're going to win. However, in a game that focuses so much on role playing and dialogue, I think this same catharsis could be achieved through verbal sparring -- we just never get it because there is no chance for dialogue at the end.

Closure is much simpler. As it stands, the ending leaves too much to speculation, and, unfortunately, this opens the door to inferred holocausts. I feel like the ending wasn't thought through. We need answers to these questions:

- What happens when the relays are destroyed? Do they destroy home systems, like in Arrival? Did we just destroy large parts of the galaxy in order to save it?
- How do our squad mates get back on the Normandy, if they survive? How long was Shepard out? If Shepard was out, but the team was up, why are they on the ship? Why didn't they make a run for the Conduit, like Anderson did?
- We've just stranded our crew on Gilligan's Planet. How do they survive without food, clean water, shelter, medical supplies, etc.? Do they get rescued, or are they stuck forever? Do they try to rebuild and repopulate, or do they die off slowly?
- What happens to the rest of the galaxy without the relays? The galactic economy is destroyed, communications are reduced to a handful of working QECs, governments and urban infrastructures are in ruins. Will civil war break out over scarce resources? After we spent all that time building unity, does it all collapse as species try to protect themselves?
- What happens to the fleet stuck in Sol? Sol's natural resources have been drained for decades, and Earth is hardly in any shape to support them all, besides which, the turians and quarians can't eat Earth food. Do they starve? Even if some people try to make it home at FTL speed, it will take years, and without food and fuel, won't they die in space anyway?

This could be easily resolved without changing anything else by the addition of a true epilogue. Again, I will use DA:O as an example -- in fact, I think it is an excellent example of how to do a downer ending that still feels satisfying. In my first DA:O playthrough, my character got her heart broken and died at the end, but I felt pretty good about that, because the epilogue made me feel like what I had done actually mattered. The funeral scene was touching, and the text epilogues let me know how all my actions played out. In ME, I want to feel like Shepard's sacrifice was worth it, I want to know that everything I did pays off in the end, not just in war assets, but in the galaxy's ability to rebuild, and as it stands, I don't. I feel like Shepard died, and everything is still in such bad shape that the Reapers might as well have wiped it out and started clean. Mass Effect is all about the story; that's what pulls us in and makes us care about the game. Such a beautiful, well-crafted story deserves a real ending, not a lot of speculation on what really happened.

On that note, the Stargazer Epilogue is... bizarre. It provides no closure, and the feel of the whole thing is a little creepy. Plus, it presents us with the "legend" of Shepard, implying that the whole game might not have been true, because it's a legend, after which the game itself tells us that the story has become a legend but that we can keep building it, which implies that it was true... and to what end? We already know it's a game and that it didn't really happen, so why reinforce the point that it's a story? It ruins immersion.

5) Indoctrination Theory

I don't have a stance on indoctrination theory. I can see its merits, and its drawbacks. On the one hand, the inclusion of indoctrination theory at this point would feel somewhat cheap if it wasn't originally intended, and it would likely upset people who like the endings as they are. On the other hand, it would be an acceptable way to retcon what I hated most about the game, and releasing a DLC ending with indoctrination theory would allow people who like the endings to keep them (by not getting DLC), and people who hate them to have additional options.

6) Implementation and Cost

Bearing in mind that rewriting the ending is probably an expensive process, these are some ideas for what kind of fixes I would be interested in, and their monetary value.

- $3: Simple text epilogues, with short cinematics, to provide closure. This would be the bare minimum I would consider necessary to fix the ending. I would pay for it, but I would not be happy about it, because I bought the CE and I think that a real ending should have been included in the price.
- $5: Full cinematic epilogues, with the return of all major voice actors. I would love to see this, because it would fit the style of the game and provide the closure that I want, but I would still be unsatisfied with Star Child and space magic.
- $10-15: Full rewrite of the ending, including all major voice actors and full cinematic epilogues. I would consider this a good value for the money.
- $20: Post-ending mission pack, for the inclusion of indoctrination theory, rescue missions, or anything else. This would have to include all major voice actors and a real epilogue.
- $30: Post-ending expansion pack. Kind of the platinum version of a post-ending mission DLC. I will be honest: if the ending is rewritten, major content is added, voice actors return, there is some resolution with our LIs, we have more choices at the end, and some real closure -- even if nothing else about the game is patched, such as the journal -- I would buy what amounts to a new game from BioWare. But I would have to be assured that I was getting what we were promised.

7) Summary

- get rid of Star Child OR provide sufficient opportunity to interrogate Star Child, and get real answers
- get rid of space magic
- provide the opportunity for Shepard to be Shepard and do something meaningful, through paragon/renegade dialogue and/or interrupts
- provide a sense of catharsis by including a final showdown, physical or verbal, through which players can release tension
- provide a sense of closure by including a real epilogue that shows the effect our choices have on the galaxy, and the characters we care about
- include more choices for the ending, including a happy ending, no matter how hard it is to obtain

#2224
Kyrick

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http://h9.abload.de/img/jhtqyrqxxg.jpg

A very nice flowchart posted that details some interesting thoughts about how to fix things.

#2225
Guest_Arcian_*

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SaintlPatrick wrote...

http://i.imgur.com/JhtqY.jpg

This copies WAY too much off ME2's ending structure. The general idea is great, but Jesus, at least try to be a little original when designing the structure.