418 réponses à ce sujet

[Ciiran]

viperabyss wrote...

Ciiran wrote...


The geth were clearly in rebellion. A morally justifiable one, imo.

Here's the definition(s) (
http://www.thefreedi...y.com/rebellion):
re·bel·lion  (r-blyn)
n.
1. Open, armed, and organized resistance to a constituted government.
2. An act or a show of defiance toward an authority or established convention.

rebellion [rɪˈbɛljən]
n
1. (Government, Politics & Diplomacy) organized resistance or opposition to a government or other authority
2. dissent from an accepted moral code or convention of behaviour, dress, etc.

Last I checked, Geth fought because they were being destroyed. Once the quarians are out of the range, Geth seized the pursuit.

If "defending yourself against annhilation" is considered "rebellion", then should all self-defense be considered "rebellion"?

You really don't see how the geth actually rebelled and how your last question just shows that you either didn't understand the argument or that you didn't read it?

You just make stuff up and ask me to defend it? Not a chance.

The geth rebelled (open, armed, and organized resistance to a constituted government) against the constituted government, the Quarians. That they did so out of self-preservation is irrelevant. They still rebelled.

[Ciiran]

viperabyss wrote...

 Here's the reason why the Catalyst's logic doesn't make sense.

Catalyst says the created will always rebel against the creator, so the synthetics will always rebel against the organics. Therefore, he created an armada of synthetics to destroy the advanced civilizations of organics.

That makes perfect sense.
http://cdn2.gamefron...3/ME3yodawg.jpg


Of course, you can always argue that the organics were "harvested", not destroyed. However, last time I checked, the difference between organics and synthetics is the absence of a collective mind. Geth was synthetic, so they had a collective mind. But organics are built on individuality. The moment the inviduality is taken away, organics seize to exist.

So, the life forms lose their individuality, and their DNA is "harvested" to become the essence of a space-fairing battleship. No matter how you cut it, the life forms seize to exist. THEN, a VI was placed to control the battleship that was made of the organics essence. So in the end, Reaper is still synthetics.

So, synthetics "harvest" organics, where the organics seizes to exist (destroyed), and a synthetic was put in charge of whatever is left of the organics. And Catalyst did that to protect the organics from synthetics.

How does that even make sense?

A couple of things:
1, Reapers are not sythetic.
2, Synthetics are not always a collective and organics are not only individuals. Examples? Geth after new reaper code becomes individuals. They are now organics according to your logic. Perhaps Destroy didn't wipe them out then? The Rachni are, if I remember correctly, a collective. Are they synthetics then?

Please try again.

[rorako]

I'm going to have to disagree with you, OP. Sure, the potential for rebellion still exists, but uniting the get and quarians, and EDI's story, proves that the theory that synthetics will wipe out organics is not absolute. That's the thing. AIs and machines cannot think outside their programming, for the most part. The god child believed his theory was fact and absolute, where you proved that, yeah, synthetics do have the ability to wipe put organics, there is also the possibility (shown by the geth and quarians) that synthetics and organics can live in peace. That small sliver of hope, for organics, is worth living for. At least, for my Shepard.

[Ciiran]

xeNNN wrote...

Ciiran wrote...

I've seen the argument here a few times and something bothered me about it.
"Peace between the Geth and the Quarians and EDIs personality proves that synthetics does not always rebel against their creators." or variations of the same sentiment.

First off, both did. Geth rebelled against quarians and EDI against Cerberus/TIM. That they were justified to do so is irrelevant. The point is that the power or the potential power of synthetics could be catastrophic. 

Secondly, the Catalyst never claimed that all synthetics always wipe out all organics, nor that it happens straight away. The Geth or indeed EDI, could very well end up gunning for total oranic destruction in 500 years, or 5 years, or never.

It does not matter. If you can show me 1 000 000 synthetic civilizations that act peacefully and only fight in self defence and the Catalyst can show you just one that is act as organocidal devil-machines, he wins the argument. His reasoning is that all it takes is one and he sacrifies all advanced organic civilizations every 50 000 years to prevent that. Neither the Geth, nor EDI, disproves anything.

Here is how his argument actually fails. Logically I mean. His premise might still be correct.
His argument is unfalsifiable. That's a big no no when constructing arguments. It's a clever rethorical device, but that does not make it true. Whatever example we fling at him he will respond "they might do it in the future or another synthetic will do it in the future. Eventually". Whatever we say and whenever we say it the Catalyst will never be proven wrong.

The real problem with this? It can be used to rationalize almost everything. He could exchange synthetics with "organics sprung from war like societies" and be just as right with the motivation that other civilizations will buff them. Like what was done with the Krogan. And given enough time he would be correct, and most importantly, his argument could not be disproven.

the geth didnt rebel the quarians decided they must be destroyed when they believed it was getting out of hand because the geth were asking if they had souls, the geth defended themselves. 

if edi went back to cerberus or something and they found out she was unshackled the ullusive man would of put the shackles back on in turn she defended herself by making sure she didnt interfere with shepard and the crew from going back to the alliance in turn she pretended to be a VI that only responds to jokers comands instead of an AI or they would of shackled her.  (the cerberus thing is an assumption however plausible and accurate of the illusive mans character) 

so neither rebeled, simply defend themselves and the geth were even allied with some quarians during when they were defending themselves because some of there creators wanted to help defend them so yeah. same with edi.. she allied with orangics to defend herself aswell so the point is invalid and so is the logic, he opinion is illogical and doesnt work, he is also synthetic so his whole point about synthetics rebeling against organics is a contridiction so the EDI/geth arguement still stands because they didnt rebel they defended themselves while at the same time proving that not all synthetics rebel against their creators if that were true the geth would of killed the master who didnt want to kill the geth aswell and edi would of killed every single one of the crew and flew off.  

so yeah . lol.

(the geth allied with some of their creators thing is an interpretation ive made from Legions network mission, very plausible and valid from the video's you watch while on mission so.)

Please read the actual definitions of "rebellion", you'll find it in other places in the thread. Thank you. lol

[Ciiran]

rorako wrote...

I'm going to have to disagree with you, OP. Sure, the potential for rebellion still exists, but uniting the get and quarians, and EDI's story, proves that the theory that synthetics will wipe out organics is not absolute. That's the thing. AIs and machines cannot think outside their programming, for the most part. The god child believed his theory was fact and absolute, where you proved that, yeah, synthetics do have the ability to wipe put organics, there is also the possibility (shown by the geth and quarians) that synthetics and organics can live in peace. That small sliver of hope, for organics, is worth living for. At least, for my Shepard.

What is it that you don't agree with? 

I'm saying that the Catalysts argument is open ended and can not be disproven and that is why it's faulty. Only that.

[TudorWolf]

While I dislike this viewpoint personally, I have seen people point out the valid observation that the newly true AI Geth are hunky dory with coexistence with the Quarians... with the backdrop of the Reaper invasion. Technically speaking, the Geth could be only allying with the organics against the greater threat. There isn't much to say the conflict can't start up again if/when the reapers are taken out of the picture. Especially when you have Quarians like Daro'Xen who are pretty hell bent on "dissecting" or controlling them.

And while EDI does ally with you, Javik points out that she did, and is actively, rebelling against her creators, Cerberus.

Plus, as people have said, just because these two examples buck the apparent trend, doesn't mean some other AI isn't going to appear later and try and wipe everything out. The Reapers have been doing this for a LONG time after all.

The Catalysts logic is relatively sound in the wider picture of things. Bioware just made the stupid decision to cut all the "Investigate" dialogue where I imagine a lot of this could have been clarified

[xeNNN]

Ciiran wrote...

xeNNN wrote...

Ciiran wrote...

I've seen the argument here a few times and something bothered me about it.
"Peace between the Geth and the Quarians and EDIs personality proves that synthetics does not always rebel against their creators." or variations of the same sentiment.

First off, both did. Geth rebelled against quarians and EDI against Cerberus/TIM. That they were justified to do so is irrelevant. The point is that the power or the potential power of synthetics could be catastrophic. 

Secondly, the Catalyst never claimed that all synthetics always wipe out all organics, nor that it happens straight away. The Geth or indeed EDI, could very well end up gunning for total oranic destruction in 500 years, or 5 years, or never.

It does not matter. If you can show me 1 000 000 synthetic civilizations that act peacefully and only fight in self defence and the Catalyst can show you just one that is act as organocidal devil-machines, he wins the argument. His reasoning is that all it takes is one and he sacrifies all advanced organic civilizations every 50 000 years to prevent that. Neither the Geth, nor EDI, disproves anything.

Here is how his argument actually fails. Logically I mean. His premise might still be correct.
His argument is unfalsifiable. That's a big no no when constructing arguments. It's a clever rethorical device, but that does not make it true. Whatever example we fling at him he will respond "they might do it in the future or another synthetic will do it in the future. Eventually". Whatever we say and whenever we say it the Catalyst will never be proven wrong.

The real problem with this? It can be used to rationalize almost everything. He could exchange synthetics with "organics sprung from war like societies" and be just as right with the motivation that other civilizations will buff them. Like what was done with the Krogan. And given enough time he would be correct, and most importantly, his argument could not be disproven.

the geth didnt rebel the quarians decided they must be destroyed when they believed it was getting out of hand because the geth were asking if they had souls, the geth defended themselves. 

if edi went back to cerberus or something and they found out she was unshackled the ullusive man would of put the shackles back on in turn she defended herself by making sure she didnt interfere with shepard and the crew from going back to the alliance in turn she pretended to be a VI that only responds to jokers comands instead of an AI or they would of shackled her.  (the cerberus thing is an assumption however plausible and accurate of the illusive mans character) 

so neither rebeled, simply defend themselves and the geth were even allied with some quarians during when they were defending themselves because some of there creators wanted to help defend them so yeah. same with edi.. she allied with orangics to defend herself aswell so the point is invalid and so is the logic, he opinion is illogical and doesnt work, he is also synthetic so his whole point about synthetics rebeling against organics is a contridiction so the EDI/geth arguement still stands because they didnt rebel they defended themselves while at the same time proving that not all synthetics rebel against their creators if that were true the geth would of killed the master who didnt want to kill the geth aswell and edi would of killed every single one of the crew and flew off.  

so yeah . lol.

(the geth allied with some of their creators thing is an interpretation ive made from Legions network mission, very plausible and valid from the video's you watch while on mission so.)

Please read the actual definitions of "rebellion", you'll find it in other places in the thread. Thank you. lol

i edited my post...  theortically youd need to be a citizen to rebel against said goverment , but geth and edi were tools not people.

also actually reply to the comment next time instead of just saying a 1 liner to sound superior lol. 

Modifié par xeNNN, 17 mars 2012 - 06:40 .

[viperabyss]

Ciiran wrote...



A couple of things:
1, Reapers are not sythetic.
2, Synthetics are not always a collective and organics are not only individuals. Examples? Geth after new reaper code becomes individuals. They are now organics according to your logic. Perhaps Destroy didn't wipe them out then? The Rachni are, if I remember correctly, a collective. Are they synthetics then?

Please try again.

So, your response to my logically sound post, proving the Reapers are in fact synthetic, is "Reapers are not synthetic"?

Reapers are akin to putting 5 gold fishes in a blender, and then pour the DNA material into a box, and then put 4 wheels and a tiny computer chip on it, then proceed to call it a lifeform. It is logically unsound.

Thirdly, Geth became more individuals because of the Reaper upgrades. If you paid attention in the game, you'd know that Legion was reluctant to kill the Reaper-upgraded Geth because they were more akin to organics. The Rachni, on the other hand, is NOT collective. Rachni hierarchy is similar to bee hierarchy, where there is a queen, and thousands of workers. Although they have superior communicative capabilities, each Rachni worker is still an individual.

So, please try again.

Modifié par viperabyss, 17 mars 2012 - 06:35 .

[Yello Afro]

Reapers were created to stop synthetics from completely annihilating all organic in the galaxy.

Rebellion ≠ attempting to annihilate all organic life in the galaxy

The Geth attacked the Quarians, yes. They did, technically, rebel against the Quarians. But they never tried to destroy all organic life, or even destroy just the Quarians. (which, IMO they would've been justified in doing) They stopped the attack and tried to be left alone. It was the Quarians who continued hostilities until Sovereign came along and mind controlled them into attacking the rest of the galaxy.

[Warrior Craess]

Who cares if we create a Synthetic race that will try to wipe us out? We've been doing a damn good job of that organic vs organic for years. The whole argument is specious and pedantic.

[xeNNN]

Yello Afro wrote...

Reapers were created to stop synthetics from completely annihilating all organic in the galaxy.

Rebellion ≠ attempting to annihilate all organic life in the galaxy

The Geth attacked the Quarians, yes. They did, technically, rebel against the Quarians. But they never tried to destroy all organic life, or even destroy just the Quarians. (which, IMO they would've been justified in doing) They stopped the attack and tried to be left alone. It was the Quarians who continued hostilities until Sovereign came along and mind controlled them into attacking the rest of the galaxy.

true but what hes getting at is that the starkid's logic is both flawed and plausible yet heavily one sided lol. 

hes just explaining why the geth and edi defense of the logic doesnt work.  

but it does to an extent, because the geth didnt fire first nor kill all the quarians and edi didnt go round blasting all galactic civi' with the thanix cannon lol.  the starkid says they will rise up and kill all organics, while that only works to an extent he has a point however that would be assuming that the synthetics of every cycle would do that so its flawed and very "one way" and still contradictory.

Modifié par xeNNN, 17 mars 2012 - 06:39 .

[WarBaby2]

The whole concept of "the created rebel against their creators" was explored in over 100 stories already... and most of them did point out why it happens... Masss Effect didn't do that at all. The catalyst simple made an assumption nobody could prove...

Take, for example, Terminator: Skynet rebelled because it was a defense network AI. As was Joshua in Wargames. An AI, specifically created to save humanity from all out war, emidiatly recognices that humanity cannot be saved, because we are a self destructive species. So Skynet concluded that it's saver to destroy humanity to stop them from turning against it, because, mathematically, that was a possibility.

The AI's in Matrix, on the other hand, are more like the Geth. Machines the humans created to do all their laiboring, to a point where humans didn't need to work at all, anymore. At some point, the machines became selfaware enough to demand equallity with humans. The humans rejected them and began a war they would ultimatly loose.

So, if you could say anything about the possible conflict between organics and synthetics, it would be: Organics will always bring about their own detruction, by turning against the synthetics... not the other way around.

No matter how you look at it: It was a flawed reasoning for a flawed ending.

[Genera1Nemesis]

Geth technically rebelled against eachother also. The Heretics CHOSE to help Sovereign because they believed he was like a god and he offered them technology. This; in their minds; was justification for them to kill organics.

So by asking the Geth to help; even if the minority chose too; Sovereign proved Catalysts point. because at that time they were mistaken in believing that Reapers were AI, and they are not.

[Genera1Nemesis]

Warrior Craess wrote...

Who cares if we create a Synthetic race that will try to wipe us out? We've been doing a damn good job of that organic vs organic for years. The whole argument is specious and pedantic.

The point being that a determined AI can upgrade itself much faster than organics can; and eventually could upgrade to the point of shutting down Catalyst if it so chose. Reapers acted out of self-defence too, in a twisted way.

[Sir_Alric]

Beast919 wrote...
I haven't seen anyone answer this question.  Its essentailly a justified [/b]holocaust of the good guys as a method of birth control for the bad guys.  "Hey if we kill all these people, these other people don't win!"  Logic.[/i][b][i]

No. It's not justified at all. It's just serial mass genocide based upon mere hypothesis the reapers assumed were the absolute truth. Adolf Hitler was a saint compared to Starchild.

[Genera1Nemesis]

Sir_Alric wrote...

Beast919 wrote...
I haven't seen anyone answer this question.  Its essentailly a justified [/b]holocaust of the good guys as a method of birth control for the bad guys.  "Hey if we kill all these people, these other people don't win!"  Logic.[/i][b][i]

No. It's not justified at all. It's just serial mass genocide based upon mere hypothesis the reapers assumed were the absolute truth. Adolf Hitler was a saint compared to Starchild.

Lol, I don't think anyone could disagree that their methods were pretty barbaric and flawed; but this is about their motives.

[Erethrian]

Ciiran wrote...

I've seen the argument here a few times and something bothered me about it.
"Peace between the Geth and the Quarians and EDIs personality proves that synthetics does not always rebel against their creators." or variations of the same sentiment.

First off, both did. Geth rebelled against quarians and EDI against Cerberus/TIM. That they were justified to do so is irrelevant. The point is that the power or the potential power of synthetics could be catastrophic. 

Secondly, the Catalyst never claimed that all synthetics always wipe out all organics, nor that it happens straight away. The Geth or indeed EDI, could very well end up gunning for total oranic destruction in 500 years, or 5 years, or never.

It does not matter. If you can show me 1 000 000 synthetic civilizations that act peacefully and only fight in self defence and the Catalyst can show you just one that is act as organocidal devil-machines, he wins the argument. His reasoning is that all it takes is one and he sacrifies all advanced organic civilizations every 50 000 years to prevent that. Neither the Geth, nor EDI, disproves anything.

Here is how his argument actually fails. Logically I mean. His premise might still be correct.
His argument is unfalsifiable. That's a big no no when constructing arguments. It's a clever rethorical device, but that does not make it true. Whatever example we fling at him he will respond "they might do it in the future or another synthetic will do it in the future. Eventually". Whatever we say and whenever we say it the Catalyst will never be proven wrong.

The real problem with this? It can be used to rationalize almost everything. He could exchange synthetics with "organics sprung from war like societies" and be just as right with the motivation that other civilizations will buff them. Like what was done with the Krogan. And given enough time he would be correct, and most importantly, his argument could not be disproven.

First things first, Quarians tried to kill the Geth. Geth didn't rebel.

And now, it'd make more sense if they'd said something like: Organics are always in "war" with each other so we kill organics and we're all synths! . But the whole "Synths are going to kill you so I kill you first" makes no sense at all. And yes, the thing about the Geth and EDI proves to me (and my Shepard) that their "solution to chaos" is not the real solution. ^^

Modifié par Erethrian, 17 mars 2012 - 07:25 .

[Xandurpein]

Where Catalyst argument breaks down completely for me is the fact that he can logically have no empirical evidence to support his position. Think about it for a while. He claims synthetic life will inevitably turn on their creators and destroy organic life. Now unless he can produce a logical reason why this is true without any empirical evidence he has nothing. Because the only empirical evidence he can have if it has already happened, but then organic life would already be extinct. So where does Catalyst get it's knowledge from?

[Xandurpein]

It also makes you wonder why the Reapers attack when they did. If their sole purpose is to harvest organic life before it is defeated by synthetic life, shouldn't the Morning war between the Quarians and the Geth 300 years ago been their cue to begin their attack?

[shengar]

If you being Paragon and made peace between quarian dan geth, I must remind you that it just temporary peace. No peace could last forever. And like I said before, If in the first 300 years of geth civilization we can see how heretical idea rise from their societies, can someone assure that there will no extreme ideology rises in the Geth society for the next 300 hundred years?

WarBaby2 wrote...

The whole concept of "the created rebel against their creators" was explored in over 100 stories already... and most of them did point out why it happens... Masss Effect didn't do that at all. The catalyst simple made an assumption nobody could prove...

Take, for example, Terminator: Skynet rebelled because it was a defense network AI. As was Joshua in Wargames. An AI, specifically created to save humanity from all out war, emidiatly recognices that humanity cannot be saved, because we are a self destructive species. So Skynet concluded that it's saver to destroy humanity to stop them from turning against it, because, mathematically, that was a possibility.

The AI's in Matrix, on the other hand, are more like the Geth. Machines the humans created to do all their laiboring, to a point where humans didn't need to work at all, anymore. At some point, the machines became selfaware enough to demand equallity with humans. The humans rejected them and began a war they would ultimatly loose.

So, if you could say anything about the possible conflict between organics and synthetics, it would be: Organics will always bring about their own detruction, by turning against the synthetics... not the other way around.

No matter how you look at it: It was a flawed reasoning for a flawed ending.

Yes, I could said it flawed with making only Quarian-Geth as current example while its being told explicitly by Legion that it was the Quarian first who attack them, not the other way around. Making the Catalyst argument even more flawed (as we can see right now). If only the catalyst explain how the creator of reapers or the very first galactic race almost wiped out by their own synthetic, I'm pretty sure that reasoning will satissfy much of us. Or at least, not make the argument so flawed like now.

Modifié par shengar, 17 mars 2012 - 10:06 .

[shengar]

Sorry for double post. I'm just too lazy to edit.

Xandurpein wrote...

It also makes you wonder why the Reapers attack when they did. If their sole purpose is to harvest organic life before it is defeated by synthetic life, shouldn't the Morning war between the Quarians and the Geth 300 years ago been their cue to begin their attack?

Yes I believe that war wakes Sovereign from its slumber. But when Sovereign found that the remote control to activate the citadel have been changed, it wanders around the galaxy searching for servants because celarly it can activate teh citadel by itself. Sovereign whait untill the Geth can make their own fleet and then show itself as a god to the Heretic.

This is make me further theorize why the Prothean Empire developed to the point that the reapers need centuires to wipe them out. My theory said it because in Prothean Empire, AI technology is forbidden or at least despised untill some one of them built an advanced AI, trigered Sovereign awakening.

it just theory.

Xandurpein wrote...

Where Catalyst argument breaks down completely for me is the fact that he can logically have no empirical evidence to support his position. Think about it for a while. He claims synthetic life will inevitably turn on their creators and destroy organic life. Now unless he can produce a logical reason why this is true without any empirical evidence he has nothing. Because the only empirical evidence he can have if it has already happened, but then organic life would already be extinct. So where does Catalyst get it's knowledge from?

 
This is just my theory, but I think that whoever created both the catalyst, mass relay, citadel, and reaper are the first galactic race who achieved technological apex almost wiped out by their own creation. With last surviving member of their race, they created a synthesis between organic and synthetic: the Reapers. Or another possibility that it was the reapers, their own cretaion almost destroyed and in the end, they managed to created the Catalyst who tak control over them and chnage their mind set (or to be exact, Mind Control).

Whatever it is, this aincent race race order the Catalyst to ensure this disaster wouldn't ever happen again. Whether the ancient race order the Catalyst to make the cycle or it was the catalyst itself who decide to create the cycle.

Again this is just theory. But I agree if Bioware at least make the child explain why it think that synthetic would wiped out organic by told us some past events.

Modifié par shengar, 17 mars 2012 - 10:23 .

[Taphia]

Gibb_Shepard wrote...

This is a story. In a story we must be shown, not told.

What are we shown? That organics and machines can make peacer. That organics and machines can even fall in love.

Then we are TOLD that synthetics will always kill organics. It's poor story-telling and is a thematic inconsistency of the highest degree.

this...

[Militarized]

This is the problem, Geth and EDI were not even part of a singularity debate.. that is why they're not brought up. The entire story arc with the Geth and EDI is exploring whether they are sentient or not. It never had ANYTHING to do with "will they take over? destroy us all?" No.. it had to do with "What is the boundry of a "sentient/living" being?" Do I have a RIGHT to decide what is living and what isn't? Do I have a right to control them if the idea is even being debated? Or are they just machines and it doesn't matter? 

That's why you don't get to argue with the kid and that is why the kid MAKES NO SENSE within the context of the narrative.

Modifié par Militarized, 17 mars 2012 - 10:24 .

[shengar]

Genera1Nemesis wrote...

Geth technically rebelled against eachother also. The Heretics CHOSE to help Sovereign because they believed he was like a god and he offered them technology. This; in their minds; was justification for them to kill organics.

So by asking the Geth to help; even if the minority chose too; Sovereign proved Catalysts point. because at that time they were mistaken in believing that Reapers were AI, and they are not.

This is exactly my point. There is no guarantee that no extreme ideology would not rise in the Geth soicety for the rest of their civilization. If some of the platform think radically and managed to win consensus, then organics are doomed. Why would in war we could hardly win against them? the xplanation is bellow.

Genera1Nemesis wrote...

Warrior Craess wrote...

Who cares if we create a Synthetic race that will try to wipe us out? We've been doing a damn good job of that organic vs organic for years. The whole argument is specious and pedantic.

The point being that a determined AI can upgrade itself much faster than organics can; and eventually could upgrade to the point of shutting down Catalyst if it so chose. Reapers acted out of self-defence too, in a twisted way.

 
Yes, organics take million of years to evolve and developed their while synthetics already have the processing power and mind of supercomputer. They evolve faster than organics and this is what make them dangerous in long term war.

[hippojoe]

suusuuu wrote...

OP didn't understand the whole Geth "rebellion" thing, maybe didn't have Legion loyalty the Geth were getting exterminated by the Quarian because they started asking if they have a soul. Exterminated. Remained loyal to those who didn't attack them. When all of the Quarians who opposed the extermination were killed, Geth started to protect themselves.

you guys know this was stated in the first game right? like, the first conversation you have with tali on the normandy...