418 réponses à ce sujet

[Myrmedus]

111987 wrote...

Spanking Machine wrote...

The Catalyst says that the created will always rise up against their creators, but we know that isn't true. He also says that if not for what the Reapers are doing it is inevitable that synthetics will wipe out all organic life, and yet we have seen no evidence of any synthetic species that has attempted anything like that. There seemed to be plenty of ogranic life in the form of plants on the Rannoch, and synthetics have been in control of that planet for a long time. All the synthetic species we have been introduced to in the game just act like other species. They don't always get along with other species, but they aren't any worse than organics in that regard.

The Catalyst has a much larger sample size than we do. Billions of years vs. 300 years.

Except it couldn't have feasibly seen the destruction of all organic life several times if organic life exists today, could it? It may have seen it once, twice, maybe even a few times...that's not enough data to postulate an over-arching prediction.

Modifié par Myrmedus, 18 mars 2012 - 02:57 .

[Meltemph]

MrIllusion wrote...

Starchild wasn't really concerned about 'who started it'. He said the created would turn on the creator, and synthetics would always destroy organics.

If you look at the war assets, the Geth are way ahead of the quarians. And that's only in 300 years. I'd say the Quarian/Geth conflict proves that he's right.

During the Metacon War the Protheans had to unite the entire galaxy against the synthetics. However, the thing is the Protheans won.

But then again, Vendetta did say that all events follow a pattern as though controlled by an external force. So you can argue that eventually Starchild would be proven right.

I think the idea is to make it a hard decision for Shepard. Should he go with what he has experienced personally, or go with the numbers?

Umm WAT?  The Geth prove the Reapers right.... Ok if we are following your logic, then the Reapers prove the Reapers wrong.  sigh, can't beleive I'm posting this again... How is thsi not obvious?  ANYWHO

That does not make sense. The fact that the reapers exist means that there were "cycles(or lack there of)" in fact that allowed them to hit this peak, the reapers are proof they are wrong. They are essentially saying, we dont trust any other race to get to our point, because we dont know what they are going to do, so we kill them. 

Their premise that all life will create machines that eventually kill organics is directly against their very existence. 

Who do you think made the reapers? The existence of the reapers means that organics dont always create synthetics that destroy organics... How can you argue otherwise when the proof is staring at you and saying it isnt possible? 

Either the reapers had a beginning from a creator race and that the creator race DECIDED to do this or the Reapers are in fact the cycle.  There is no other way to explain it. 

This is essetnially what the reapers are arguing:  
You have to create a singularity to prevent a singularity... That doesn't even make sense. 

It is infact not a logical conclusion unless the conclusion is for self preservations sake(and only for the reapers self preservation).  The existence of itself(reapers) should be proof that outside of self preservation, it's not logic that is having them do this but is fear and imagination.  Otherwise you are arguing that the only way to prevent a singularity from destroying the galaxy is to have a singularity destroy possible singularites.  IF you dont see the flaw in this line of thinking...Umm well I guess that ship has sailed.  At worst there will be another singularity doing this(A massive theory) or at best you just wipped out the cycle for a very, very, long time or forever.

I gotta say though... I dont know why anyone cares whether the geth or any other AI is rebellious matters. The reapers are proof of where organic life will lead if left alone, the problem is, it may kill a few civilizations along the way(which is still preferable to getting wiped out by the reapers), the thing is though, if anything gets to that point, the reapers are ****ed even they admit it... The argument is, do you want the reapers, or do you want to figure out if the "next" reapers will ever come along or not, and  how will it(The galaxy) be different.

It is literally a choice of survival(Us or the reapers) and the willingness to find out what will be different. 

[Myrmedus]

Noone seems to be considering the fact that regardless of how long the Catalyst has existed for, how could it have seen the destruction of all galactic life enough times to make a far-reaching judgment since if that occurred there wouldn't be organic life existing in Mass Effect?

In addition, there are other viable possibilities to what will happen to galactic civilization. Perhaps organics and synthetics will merge voluntarily long before the critical point - in fact, Geth uploading themselves to Quarian suits is already a primitive form of this.

Finally, the comparison between Geth and Quarian advancement is inherently flawed. The Quarian's have been exiled and have been riding around in ancient, retro-fitted ships as Tali tells you in ME1 - they also have to essentially "scavenge" for resources. The Geth, on the other-hand, have a planet and are able to plough resources anywhere they want in the Veil - think of it like playing C&C where you have all of the Tiberium fields! Lastly, the Geth that the Quarians are prominently at war with are the heretics, that are only as advanced as they are due to Reaper intervention.

The issue with the Catalyst, and the reason Shepard should be able to dispute and argue with its assertions, is that it thinks just like a machine. For example, it doesn't see the difference between the Synthesis ending and life in the galaxy obtaining this state themselves, since it views it as an equation where the end product is the same. However, for us, for organic life, it's vitally different.

It is also essentially looking at things from a deathless perspective whereas organics naturally have to accept death. By attempting to control everything, what it offers is a state of existence like limbo: no death but with no freedom it's not being truly alive either. By leaving the galaxy to its own devices, there is a serious risk that all galactic life will be destroyed, but this is a metaphor to life: Life has serious risk, and life will end some day, but to be alive one must accept death.

So if BioWare want their ending to be all philosophical, rebelling against the Catalyst can still very much factor into that: we choose life with all its risks rather than immortal limbo!

Modifié par Myrmedus, 18 mars 2012 - 03:10 .

[Meltemph]

Noone seems to be considering the fact that regardless of how long the Catalyst has existed for, how could it have seen the destruction of all galactic life enough times to make a far-reaching judgment since if that occurred there wouldn't be organic life existing in Mass Effect?

You dont even have to take it that far. The reapers are either deity or proof that you dont need a singularity to prevent other singularities from appearing and killing all organics, otherwise the reapers LITERALLY wouldnt be able to exist. In other words, they prove their own theory false.

Modifié par Meltemph, 18 mars 2012 - 03:11 .

[Myrmedus]

Meltemph wrote...

Noone seems to be considering the fact that regardless of how long the Catalyst has existed for, how could it have seen the destruction of all galactic life enough times to make a far-reaching judgment since if that occurred there wouldn't be organic life existing in Mass Effect?

You dont even have to take it that far. The reapers are either deity or proof that you dont need a singularity to prevent other singularities from appearing and killing all synthetics, otherwise the reapers LITERALLY wouldnt be able to exist. In other words, they prove their own theory false.

That was just my argument against the people in this thread saying the Catalyst has a large data sample of evidence, 'tis all.

[LegatoSkyheart]

The Geth and EDI make the Final Moments of the game go WTF.
The Geth didn't rebel, the Quarian were scared, They attacked the Geth and the Geth defended itself.
If there wasn't a Geth like Legion or a Human like Shepard that would come along then the Reapers and the Catalyst would be correct, but Legion and Shepard proved that things can be different through a more "Diplomatic" approach so Synthetics won't always destroy Organics and Organics won't always makes Synthetics that will destroy.
EDI could have been evidence that Organic life would be destroyed by Synthetic live because she killed everyone on the Luna Mission in ME1, but as time progressed, with being tied on a leash in ME2, to being unshackled and learning about the crew and even helping Shepard in the end of ME2 and all of ME3, EDI showed that AIs can love and change.
With all of this knowledge do you think what the Reapers and Catalyst are doing are correct? No they are not and what does Shepard do? Nods his head in agreement and complies with the Catalyst. That's what is why the ending is so Bananas.

[Meltemph]

LegatoSkyheart wrote...

The Geth and EDI make the Final Moments of the game go WTF.
The Geth didn't rebel, the Quarian were scared, They attacked the Geth and the Geth defended itself.
If there wasn't a Geth like Legion or a Human like Shepard that would come along then the Reapers and the Catalyst would be correct, but Legion and Shepard proved that things can be different through a more "Diplomatic" approach so Synthetics won't always destroy Organics and Organics won't always makes Synthetics that will destroy.
EDI could have been evidence that Organic life would be destroyed by Synthetic live because she killed everyone on the Luna Mission in ME1, but as time progressed, with being tied on a leash in ME2, to being unshackled and learning about the crew and even helping Shepard in the end of ME2 and all of ME3, EDI showed that AIs can love and change.
With all of this knowledge do you think what the Reapers and Catalyst are doing are correct? No they are not and what does Shepard do? Nods his head in agreement and complies with the Catalyst. That's what is why the ending is so Bananas.

The thing is, the Geth and EDI could be RAVING lunatics...The reapers are still proven wrong by their own existence.

[Subject M]

LegatoSkyheart wrote...

The Geth and EDI make the Final Moments of the game go WTF.
The Geth didn't rebel, the Quarian were scared, They attacked the Geth and the Geth defended itself.
If there wasn't a Geth like Legion or a Human like Shepard that would come along then the Reapers and the Catalyst would be correct, but Legion and Shepard proved that things can be different through a more "Diplomatic" approach so Synthetics won't always destroy Organics and Organics won't always makes Synthetics that will destroy.
EDI could have been evidence that Organic life would be destroyed by Synthetic live because she killed everyone on the Luna Mission in ME1, but as time progressed, with being tied on a leash in ME2, to being unshackled and learning about the crew and even helping Shepard in the end of ME2 and all of ME3, EDI showed that AIs can love and change.
With all of this knowledge do you think what the Reapers and Catalyst are doing are correct? No they are not and what does Shepard do? Nods his head in agreement and complies with the Catalyst. That's what is why the ending is so Bananas.

Sometimes small changes over time can grow critical into an avalanche that will forever change the seemingly static or regularly repeating world into something new. Shepard, the protheans and Legion are all examples of such forces or small changes having unprecedented effects.

Modifié par Subject M, 18 mars 2012 - 03:29 .

[kakomu]

LegatoSkyheart wrote...
The Geth didn't rebel, the Quarian were scared, They attacked the Geth and the Geth defended itself. 

The Geth were, essentially, Quarian slaves. The Geth were built by the Quarians for the purpose of doing work for the Quarians. The ensuing conflict can be seen as a slave rebellion.

[Meltemph]

Sometimes small changes over time can grow critical into an avalange that will forever change the seemingly static or regularly repeating world into something new. Shepard, the protheans and Legion are all examples of such forces.

Does not matter. The reapers exist... Therefore at minimum, the current galactic landscape could get to the point of creating reapers.

[Subject M]

Meltemph wrote...

Sometimes small changes over time can grow critical into an avalange that will forever change the seemingly static or regularly repeating world into something new. Shepard, the protheans and Legion are all examples of such forces.

Does not matter. The reapers exist... Therefore at minimum, the current galactic landscape could get to the point of creating reapers.

Well that might be your point, I am not contesting it, I am just pointing out something else.

[Aiyie]

the thing people forget about the catalyst's logic is that it is based solely on the fact that synthetics will eventually wipe out organics if left unchecked.

its logic is not dependent on the reason why this cataclysm would happen. the synthetics don't need to be initiators of the genocide for this logic to be true. think about it... the quarians were already gunning for the geth, open warfare and all.

even thought the geth didn't start the war, if shep hadn't gotten involved, its entirely possible that the geth would have wiped out the quarians. and after that, who knows, perhaps other races invade geth space and similarly get wiped out, or perhaps the geth decide that in order to survive they need to go on the offensive.

its all speculative what-ifs. except that the catalyst's logic is not dependent on who starts a war between synthetics and organics, its only dependent on the outcome of those wars resulting in victory for the synthetics.

[Meltemph]

Aiyie wrote...

the thing people forget about the catalyst's logic is that it is based solely on the fact that synthetics will eventually wipe out organics if left unchecked.

its logic is not dependent on the reason why this cataclysm would happen. the synthetics don't need to be initiators of the genocide for this logic to be true. think about it... the quarians were already gunning for the geth, open warfare and all.

even thought the geth didn't start the war, if shep hadn't gotten involved, its entirely possible that the geth would have wiped out the quarians. and after that, who knows, perhaps other races invade geth space and similarly get wiped out, or perhaps the geth decide that in order to survive they need to go on the offensive.

its all speculative what-ifs. except that the catalyst's logic is not dependent on who starts a war between synthetics and organics, its only dependent on the outcome of those wars resulting in victory for the synthetics.

That's cool and all...but

Does not matter. The reapers exist... Therefore at minimum, the current galactic landscape could get to the point of creating reapers. 

Modifié par Meltemph, 18 mars 2012 - 03:36 .

[Subject M]

Aiyie wrote...

the thing people forget about the catalyst's logic is that it is based solely on the fact that synthetics will eventually wipe out organics if left unchecked.

its logic is not dependent on the reason why this cataclysm would happen. the synthetics don't need to be initiators of the genocide for this logic to be true. think about it... the quarians were already gunning for the geth, open warfare and all.

even thought the geth didn't start the war, if shep hadn't gotten involved, its entirely possible that the geth would have wiped out the quarians. and after that, who knows, perhaps other races invade geth space and similarly get wiped out, or perhaps the geth decide that in order to survive they need to go on the offensive.

its all speculative what-ifs. except that the catalyst's logic is not dependent on who starts a war between synthetics and organics, its only dependent on the outcome of those wars resulting in victory for the synthetics.

What-if is as good as many other reasons to doubt something, given you are informed about the question and understand it good enough. What if the catalyst realize that something has changed? What if it understands that what it though was a regular pattern was irregular, but the variation was not big enough to notice in the first 40 million years. Now it has mutated into a new pattern and the harvesting is irrelevant or might be irrelevant. Before, the chance of organic-synthetic cataclysm appeared as 100%. But it was really 99.999999899% Now it is has been exponentially decreasing for very long and is now down at 30% (80% before the Geth-Quarian conflict was solved). What then? The situation must be reassessed of course.

Modifié par Subject M, 18 mars 2012 - 03:48 .

[Meltemph]

Subject M wrote...

Aiyie wrote...

the thing people forget about the catalyst's logic is that it is based solely on the fact that synthetics will eventually wipe out organics if left unchecked.

its logic is not dependent on the reason why this cataclysm would happen. the synthetics don't need to be initiators of the genocide for this logic to be true. think about it... the quarians were already gunning for the geth, open warfare and all.

even thought the geth didn't start the war, if shep hadn't gotten involved, its entirely possible that the geth would have wiped out the quarians. and after that, who knows, perhaps other races invade geth space and similarly get wiped out, or perhaps the geth decide that in order to survive they need to go on the offensive.

its all speculative what-ifs. except that the catalyst's logic is not dependent on who starts a war between synthetics and organics, its only dependent on the outcome of those wars resulting in victory for the synthetics.

What-if is as good as many other reasons to doubt something, given you are informed about the question and understand it good enough. What if the catalyst realize that something has changed? What if it understands that what it though was a regular pattern was irregular, but the variation was not big enough to notice in the first 40 million years. Now it has mutated into a new pattern and the harvesting is irrelevant or might be irrelevant. Before, the chance of organic-synthetic cataclysm appeared as 100%. But it was really 99.999999899% Now it is has been exponentially decreasing for very long and is now down at 30% (80% before the Geth-Quarian conflict was solved). What then? The situation must be reassessed of course.

That doesnt make sense.  You realize the fact that the catalys exists means his calculations are way off. I think you are at the point now, where you are just trying to justify the ending for the writers. Unless you think he think he was the .01%, but then that just means its a even more crazy then orginially thought.  

[Subject M]

Meltemph wrote...

Subject M wrote...

Aiyie wrote...

the thing people forget about the catalyst's logic is that it is based solely on the fact that synthetics will eventually wipe out organics if left unchecked.

its logic is not dependent on the reason why this cataclysm would happen. the synthetics don't need to be initiators of the genocide for this logic to be true. think about it... the quarians were already gunning for the geth, open warfare and all.

even thought the geth didn't start the war, if shep hadn't gotten involved, its entirely possible that the geth would have wiped out the quarians. and after that, who knows, perhaps other races invade geth space and similarly get wiped out, or perhaps the geth decide that in order to survive they need to go on the offensive.

its all speculative what-ifs. except that the catalyst's logic is not dependent on who starts a war between synthetics and organics, its only dependent on the outcome of those wars resulting in victory for the synthetics.

What-if is as good as many other reasons to doubt something, given you are informed about the question and understand it good enough. What if the catalyst realize that something has changed? What if it understands that what it though was a regular pattern was irregular, but the variation was not big enough to notice in the first 40 million years. Now it has mutated into a new pattern and the harvesting is irrelevant or might be irrelevant. Before, the chance of organic-synthetic cataclysm appeared as 100%. But it was really 99.999999899% Now it is has been exponentially decreasing for very long and is now down at 30% (80% before the Geth-Quarian conflict was solved). What then? The situation must be reassessed of course.

That doesnt make sense.  You realize the fact that the catalys exists means his calculations are way off. I think you are at the point now, where you are just trying to justify the ending for the writers. Unless you think he think he was the .01%, but then that just means its a even more crazy then orginially thought.  

I am not. I understand your point, but you seem to assume that The catalyst is part of a continuum it might not be a part of at all. It might not even originally be from this galaxy or universe.

Modifié par Subject M, 18 mars 2012 - 04:00 .

[Meltemph]

I am not. I understand your point, but you seem to assume that The catalyst is part of a continuum it might not be a part of at all. It might not even originally be from this galaxy or universe.

Then you are effectively calling it a deity. That would make the thing EVEN worse. But how are you not just swimming through a billion already written theories to try and help the writers?

[usmack5]

Gibb_Shepard wrote...

This is a story. In a story we must be shown, not told.

What are we shown? That organics and machines can make peacer. That organics and machines can even fall in love.

Then we are TOLD that synthetics will always kill organics. It's poor story-telling and is a thematic inconsistency of the highest degree.

^^ Simply put, but accurate.

[Subject M]

Meltemph wrote...

I am not. I understand your point, but you seem to assume that The catalyst is part of a continuum it might not be a part of at all. It might not even originally be from this galaxy or universe.

Then you are effectively calling it a deity. That would make the thing EVEN worse. But how are you not just swimming through a billion already written theories to try and help the writers?

No, I would not call it a deity, a stranger perhaps. But a deity.is simply just a word one use to describe something far beyond the capabilities and assumed understandings of the the worshiper. The reapers and the catalyst could be referred to as such, but it seems they have no interest in such titles or projections.

Well, to be honest, I would gladly help the writers making something passable out of their current mess. I don't see any real way back, so we must move forward and try to make hat we can of it. Hopefully they will listen. The focus should not be put overly much on the catalyst anyway(I doubt much good can come from digging too deep in that hole, on the contrary), it would just take too much focus from what is happening with the current galactic community.

Modifié par Subject M, 18 mars 2012 - 04:26 .