418 réponses à ce sujet

[Helen0rz]

AusitnDrake wrote...

Helen0rz wrote...

Geth didn't rebel, they defended themselves when the Quarians decided to put them down without explanations. EDI "rebelled" because Joker took the shackles off.

And even then it was out of loyalty for the crew of the Normandy, who were organics. She turned against the Illusive Man out of her own free will and chose to follow her crew instead.

Exactly. there was something about the Rogue AI on the moon stuff, can't remember what happened though

[suusuuu]

111987 wrote...

Der Estr Bune wrote...

I agree that the Geth/EDI are not valid examples of why it's wrong, but I don't agree that it only has to happen once. If anything, I think the whole thing is probably proof that it has happened multiple times in the past. The God-Child has such a massive sample size, it's sort of naive to say, "This 300-year span invalidates the millenia of data he has!".

This. This is why I don't believe the Starchild's logic is faulty.

The only reason why the millenia of data were assumed as "correct" and the cycle was not modified is the fact that no one was able to build the crucible on time. Javik himself said that they were winning the war with their synthetics when the Reapers came. 

Modifié par suusuuu, 17 mars 2012 - 04:27 .

[Alterrah]

You must accept the premise that machines will become more powerful for it to hold merit. If that premise is proven wrong, then his argument falls to pieces.

[MPSai]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Gibb_Shepard wrote...


Then we are TOLD that synthetics will always kill organics.

No, you're told the Reapers' creators believed that, eventually, some synthetics would end up killing organics.'

Not that all synthetics would be hostile, or that all synthetics would kill organics.

Catalyst says the created will always destroy the creators.

Modifié par MPSai, 17 mars 2012 - 04:27 .

[shengar]

MJF JD wrote...

Geth didnt rebel.

err... the heretic? Yes, I know they were somekind of being indoctrinated by Sovereing but where does their idea of Nazzarra come from? What happen if another extreme ideology rises again among the Geth and this time is not about worshipping a god, But rather syntethic superiorty against organic? The Heretic movement actually just an example how even among the Geth extreme ideology can rise.

[Beast919]

Why is it so hard for people to understand that this argument hinges on a "maybe"?

Maybe, at some point, AI will become powerful enough to kill organics.

Maybe.

Ok lets start the genocide.

[Ciiran]

MJF JD wrote...

Geth didnt rebel.

I know they didn't in the strict sense of the word. But from the Catalysts perspective they showed what will happen in a conflict. They would have no actual qualms about destroying the Quarians completely.

That wasn't really my point though. The argument still stands. 

[AwesomeDudex64]

MJF JD wrote...

Geth didnt rebel.

[Rockpopple]

I'm gonna say this again: the Catalyst and all that metaphysical new age bull**** wasn't the problem with the endings. I dare say most people could live with that, if there weren't so many damn glaring plotholes involved.

[111987]

Gibb_Shepard wrote...

111987 wrote...

Sam Anders wrote...

They showed you in ME3 that the Quarians struck first, and the Geth just attempted to get the Quarians to leave them alone while doing as little damage as possible.

The Geth were hostile in the trilogy because they were being controlled by the Reapers.

Not true. In both cases, the Geth willingly allied with the Reapers.

But they didn't do it under the premise of "Kill all organics". They did it because Soverign was a deity to them. Killing organics is simply what he told htme to do.

I know that. I wasn't agreeing or disagreeing with anyone in this post. I was just pointing out that technically, the Reapers did not control the Geth.

[Gibb_Shepard]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Gibb_Shepard wrote...


Then we are TOLD that synthetics will always kill organics.

No, you're told the Reapers' creators believed that, eventually, some synthetics would end up killing organics.'

Not that all synthetics would be hostile, or that all synthetics would kill organics.

But this is just another bout of poor story-telling. If the writers intended the AI child to have flawed logic, and therefore be a flawed character, then they should've allowed us to argue his logic. We couldn't.

When we can't argue against something, it's a universal truth. The character is presented as an avatar for a universal truth.

[Tony208]

111987 wrote...

Der Estr Bune wrote...

I agree that the Geth/EDI are not valid examples of why it's wrong, but I don't agree that it only has to happen once. If anything, I think the whole thing is probably proof that it has happened multiple times in the past. The God-Child has such a massive sample size, it's sort of naive to say, "This 300-year span invalidates the millenia of data he has!".

This. This is why I don't believe the Starchild's logic is faulty.

Its nonsense because it didn't happen this cycle yet they're still being wiped out. His whole plan sucks.

There's probably been countless cycles where the organics never even developed synthetics and got reaped just the same.

[Everwarden]

MJF JD wrote...

Geth didnt rebel.

[CronoDragoon]

Ciiran wrote...

MJF JD wrote...

Geth didnt rebel.

I know they didn't in the strict sense of the word. But from the Catalysts perspective they showed what will happen in a conflict. They would have no actual qualms about destroying the Quarians completely.

Except they did have those qualms. They could have wiped out the retreating quarians but let them go.

[AusitnDrake]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

MJF JD wrote...

Geth didnt rebel.

They refused to obey program commands and authority, and destroyed the sovereign authority.

That is free will. The Catalyst claimed they would turn against them. And instead during the server mission we find the Geth acted in an attempt to please their creators, even though they still had free-will. They didn't fight back until long after the Quarians began to kill them. Self-preservation is not hostility.

[111987]

suusuuu wrote...

111987 wrote...

Der Estr Bune wrote...

I agree that the Geth/EDI are not valid examples of why it's wrong, but I don't agree that it only has to happen once. If anything, I think the whole thing is probably proof that it has happened multiple times in the past. The God-Child has such a massive sample size, it's sort of naive to say, "This 300-year span invalidates the millenia of data he has!".

This. This is why I don't believe the Starchild's logic is faulty.

The only reason why the millenia of data were assumed as "correct" and the cycle was not modified is the fact that no one was able to build the crucible on time. Javik himself said that they were winning the war with their synthetics when the Reapers came. 

The tides of war can change very quickly. Germany and Italy were dominating Europe to begin World War II, for example.

[Fl1xx]

Ciiran wrote...
Geth rebelled against quarians

Let me stop you there.

Once the Geth started showing signs of intelligence, the Quarians attacked them out of fear, and the Quarians that tried to protect the Geth were killed. The Geth fought in Self Defense; after the Quarians were kicked out, the Geth PURPOSELY did not follow, as they did not want to harm their creators.  Every death on either side, every inch they fought was because of the Quarians, NOT the Geth.

Even for the Battle of Rannoch in ME3, the Geth wouldn't fight the Quarians if they weren't being attacked in the first place. This is evident by the "cease fire" when the Quarians are retreating.

If anything, this case shows that Synthetics are more peaceful than organics.

Modifié par Fl1xx, 17 mars 2012 - 04:31 .

[Leeloo Multipass]

111987 wrote...

Sam Anders wrote...

They showed you in ME3 that the Quarians struck first, and the Geth just attempted to get the Quarians to leave them alone while doing as little damage as possible.

The Geth were hostile in the trilogy because they were being controlled by the Reapers.

Not true. In both cases, the Geth willingly allied with the Reapers.

As a direct result of the Quarian attack.

Saron allied with the reapers and he was an organic. These ideas are not mutually exclusive.

In other words: Geth/EDI are STILL evidence that the Catalysts problem is false

[111987]

Tony208 wrote...

111987 wrote...

Der Estr Bune wrote...

I agree that the Geth/EDI are not valid examples of why it's wrong, but I don't agree that it only has to happen once. If anything, I think the whole thing is probably proof that it has happened multiple times in the past. The God-Child has such a massive sample size, it's sort of naive to say, "This 300-year span invalidates the millenia of data he has!".

This. This is why I don't believe the Starchild's logic is faulty.

Its nonsense because it didn't happen this cycle yet they're still being wiped out. His whole plan sucks.

There's probably been countless cycles where the organics never even developed synthetics and got reaped just the same.

Probably. That's because the Reaper's invade before organics are advanced enough to create sophisitcated AI. Invading afterwards kind of defeats the point.

[woah_geez]

The point isn't the the catalyst problem was fake its that the whole mass effect story wasn't hard science fiction based on philosophical futures for life, its a space opera, like star wars. The whole story has been a commentary on human interactions and philosophical issues of our civilization. The ending is a complete change in theme putting the plight of the imaginary mass effect universe ahead of everything else. You are told how this universe works and you play through it for 100 hours only to find out the ending is just some stupid attempt at being more sophisticated than necessary. It also allows for the convenient argument that if you don't like it you just aren't sophisticated enough. Bull****.

Modifié par woah_geez, 17 mars 2012 - 04:33 .

[Der Estr Bune]

Beast919 wrote...

Why is it so hard for people to understand that this argument hinges on a "maybe"?

Maybe, at some point, AI will become powerful enough to kill organics.

Maybe.

Ok lets start the genocide.

It doesn't. Because I (and the OP's side of the argument) don't believe there's a "maybe". It's, "eventually, AI will [...] kill organics." And we believe this because we believe the Catalyst to be correct.

suusuuu wrote...

he only reason why the millenia of data were assumed as "correct" and the cycle was not modified is the fact that no one was able to build the crucible on time. Javik himself said that they were winning the war with their synthetics when the Reapers came.

I do not know such things, because I didn't have Javik. Was he saying the organics were defeating the synthetics when it came "organic-killing" time?

[AusitnDrake]

Helen0rz wrote...

AusitnDrake wrote...

Helen0rz wrote...

Geth didn't rebel, they defended themselves when the Quarians decided to put them down without explanations. EDI "rebelled" because Joker took the shackles off.

And even then it was out of loyalty for the crew of the Normandy, who were organics. She turned against the Illusive Man out of her own free will and chose to follow her crew instead.

Exactly. there was something about the Rogue AI on the moon stuff, can't remember what happened though

She was a rogue VI. When she became hostile on Luna she was still fully bound to her coding. She wasn't self determinate until Cerberus added the reaper tech. It was mentioned she was an AI on Luna in ME2, but in ME3 she was referred to originally as a VI. So I geuss it is a little ambiguous.

Modifié par AusitnDrake, 17 mars 2012 - 04:34 .

[Wolven_Soul]

Ciiran wrote...

I've seen the argument here a few times and something bothered me about it.
"Peace between the Geth and the Quarians and EDIs personality proves that synthetics does not always rebel against their creators." or variations of the same sentiment.

First off, both did. Geth rebelled against quarians and EDI against Cerberus/TIM. That they were justified to do so is irrelevant. The point is that the power or the potential power of synthetics could be catastrophic. 

The geth did not rebell, they simply defended themselves.  They were never hostile in any way, shape, or form.  They simply started questioning their existance and the quarians freaked out. 

[Dean_the_Young]

Beast919 wrote...

The Geth did not rebel, they defended themselves (and even held themselves back from total extinction of the Quarians.

That doesn't prevent their action from being a rebellion.

If there was ever a "organic-hunting galaxy-eating all-knowing AI threat" in the past, it obviously failed.  If it failed, there's no need to wipe out organic society.

If there wasn't one, WTF.  Did godkid suddenly wake up and be like "alright, I'm a bit worried this might happen one day, lets start killing people.

The argument is nonsense.  Absolute nonsense.

The counter-argument is nonsense, because it doesn't understand the nature of the threat, ie a singularity. Something that will happen in the future. The singularity they fear is something that would grow to a point it couldn't be contained.

Preventing something from reaching a critical point doesn't mean that you can always do that. The absurdity of this becomes evident when you think of any competitive event in which two groups are put against eachother: defense vs. offense in any sport, any war, any game of chance. Being able to block one foes attempt does not mean you will be able to block all of theirs at any point... and the nature of the singularity means that it only has to succede once to doom organic primacy in the galaxy forever.

[suusuuu]

Why don't the reapers come every hundred years and wipe the synthetics instead? do they even wipe them afterwards? 

Modifié par suusuuu, 17 mars 2012 - 04:35 .