418 réponses à ce sujet

[111987]

suusuuu wrote...

Why don't the reapers come every hundred years and wipe the synthetics instead?

That solves nothing in the long-term, which is what the Reapers are concerned with.

[Dean_the_Young]

Gibb_Shepard wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Gibb_Shepard wrote...


Then we are TOLD that synthetics will always kill organics.

No, you're told the Reapers' creators believed that, eventually, some synthetics would end up killing organics.'

Not that all synthetics would be hostile, or that all synthetics would kill organics.

But this is just another bout of poor story-telling. If the writers intended the AI child to have flawed logic, and therefore be a flawed character, then they should've allowed us to argue his logic. We couldn't.

You don't get to argue the logic of most people in the game, including Shepards. Since you're not forced to believe his logic either, it's all good.

When we can't argue against something, it's a universal truth. The character is presented as an avatar for a universal truth.

No, the Catalyst is a character presented as an avatar for the Reaper's motivations... and admits in the very conversation that it's conclusions were flawed.

The Catalyst reflects the Reaper's perspectives. You don't have to accept their conclusions as true.

[Der Estr Bune]

suusuuu wrote...

Why don't the reapers come every hundred years and wipe the synthetics instead?

What would be the point? Eventually, society would evolve far enough to where they're going to be able to create them again quicker and quicker, and the Reapers would basically have to install themselves in the galaxy.

[MJF JD]

someone makes a fancy toaster and Harbinger blasts it. THIS HURTS YOU

[suusuuu]

but the cycle repeats itself anyway, just less often, so it doesn't make sense. reapers being eternal could easily overlook and protect the galaxy.

Modifié par suusuuu, 17 mars 2012 - 04:37 .

[Erield]

111987 wrote...

Der Estr Bune wrote...

I agree that the Geth/EDI are not valid examples of why it's wrong, but I don't agree that it only has to happen once. If anything, I think the whole thing is probably proof that it has happened multiple times in the past. The God-Child has such a massive sample size, it's sort of naive to say, "This 300-year span invalidates the millenia of data he has!".

This. This is why I don't believe the Starchild's logic is faulty.

The only way to have proof that it will happen is that it has happened before--and yet, organic life still seems to exist.  This means that either it *didn't* happen before, or that organic life happened again  despite all organic life being wiped out.  Unless, of course, you think that Star Child actually created the universe, and this is try #159798 since the first 159797 times all organic life got wiped out by synthetic creations.

[Beast919]

Der Estr Bune wrote...

It doesn't. Because I (and the OP's side of the argument) don't believe there's a "maybe". It's, "eventually, AI will [...] kill organics." And we believe this because we believe the Catalyst to be correct.

How can be he correct is my question.

IF there has been a previous AI that threatened the galaxy, it obviously was defeated - organic life still exists.

IF there were *multiple* previous AIs, they were ALL defeated.

IF there *hasn't* been a dangerous AI in the past - WTF?!  Why would you *assume* there would be?

Regardless of whats happened in the past, there is NO justification for wiping out all advanced organic species every 50k years.  There simply isn't.

[Wolven_Soul]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Beast919 wrote...

The Geth did not rebel, they defended themselves (and even held themselves back from total extinction of the Quarians.

That doesn't prevent their action from being a rebellion.

Actually it does.  A rebellion is an open, organized, and armed resistance against one's government or ruler.  

The geth never rebelled against the quarians, they defended themselves.

[Beast919]

111987 wrote...

suusuuu wrote...

Why don't the reapers come every hundred years and wipe the synthetics instead?

That solves nothing in the long-term, which is what the Reapers are concerned with.

The reapers are concerned with the "long term" so they repeat a horrifying cycle for billions of years that has cost untold numbers of ENTIRE CIVILIZATIONS.

Your logic makes less sense every single time you write something.

[Dean_the_Young]

AusitnDrake wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

MJF JD wrote...

Geth didnt rebel.

They refused to obey program commands and authority, and destroyed the sovereign authority.

That is free will.

It is also rebellion. The two are not mutually exclusive. In many cases, they apply to the same thing.

The Catalyst claimed they would turn against them.

It did not.

It claimed that, eventually, some synthetic would overwhelm organic life. Not that every synthetic life form would at every point in their development.

And instead during the server mission we find the Geth acted in an attempt to please their creators, even though they still had free-will. They didn't fight back until long after the Quarians began to kill them. Self-preservation is not hostility.

What you are in effect claiming is that because that Geth were not hostile in the past, they never will be in the future and are thus not a potential candidate for future hostitlity.

The flaw in this argument is the Heretics, who did become hostile against species that had never done them harm.

[Warhawk7137]

Potential =/= inevitability.

An organic race, given enough technological power and general douchiness, could destroy the galaxy too.  Potentially.

The Geth and EDI demonstrate that it's not inevitable.

Ultimately the reason why the "solution" is wrong is because it shoots free will in the head and throws it off a bridge.

Plus it would be just as easy to make the argument that organics tend to ultimately distrust synthetics.  Look what happened to the field of AI research and development after the Geth rebelled.  Look what happened to the Protheans.

Ergo, the problem is that the Reapers, in wiping out the Protheans, were commiting genocide against a race which had a deep mistrust of synthetic life and AIs based on their own experiences in the past which such things, in order ot prevent that race from self-inflicted genocide via the creeation of synthetic life and AIs.

So... what?

Modifié par Warhawk7137, 17 mars 2012 - 04:42 .

[111987]

Erield wrote...

111987 wrote...

Der Estr Bune wrote...

I agree that the Geth/EDI are not valid examples of why it's wrong, but I don't agree that it only has to happen once. If anything, I think the whole thing is probably proof that it has happened multiple times in the past. The God-Child has such a massive sample size, it's sort of naive to say, "This 300-year span invalidates the millenia of data he has!".

This. This is why I don't believe the Starchild's logic is faulty.

The only way to have proof that it will happen is that it has happened before--and yet, organic life still seems to exist. 

Why do you assume that HAS to be the only way to know?

[Slash1667]

Tony208 wrote...

EDI was created by Cerberus?
I thought she came from that Alliance moon base.

Oh and Geth didn't rebel.

EDI's main programming came from Luna Base. It was recovered and reprogramed by Cerberus also upgraded with reaper teach and installed on the SR2

[Ciiran]

I see a lot of non arguments here.

As stated, both the Geth and EDI were completely morally justified, imo, to do what they did.

This does, however, NOT disprove the Catalysts argument. It is not disprovable by design.

The Geth could paint their armour pink and go about the galaxy handing out rainbows and flowers and it would not matter one bit to the Catalyst. His argument stands.

That the quarians tried to destroy the geth first doesn't matter. It's still a rebellion. The Jews rebelled against the romans in Judea a few times, and they didn't start it either. Still a rebellion. A justified one.

50 000 years seem way arbitrary btw. More than enough time for synthetics to be developed and destroy all organics imo.

[bleetman]

Ciiran wrote...

First off, both did. Geth rebelled against quarians

No, they didn't. Not remotely in the same way the Catalyst advocates they inevitably should've.

Modifié par bleetman, 17 mars 2012 - 04:41 .

[KMYash]

My question is "How many times did the StarChild see complete organic genocide by synthetics?"

From what I understood of the ending the SC said that they came to prevent that from happening. They came when the technology was advanced enough to have AIs (which I guess always magically happened in a neat 50,000 year schedule). To me that means that they committed all of these genocides before the AI became hostile. Which means the Reapers have one sample size because they never allow for following sample sizes to prove wrong.

To me it's like saying 'This dog bit me when it became an adult, so I'm going to kill all dogs before they become adults because if I don't they'll bite me."

[xtorma]

And the catalyst gives no evidence that it is right.

[Dean_the_Young]

Wolven_Soul wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Beast919 wrote...

The Geth did not rebel, they defended themselves (and even held themselves back from total extinction of the Quarians.

That doesn't prevent their action from being a rebellion.

Actually it does.  A rebellion is an open, organized, and armed resistance against one's government or ruler.  

The geth never rebelled against the quarians, they defended themselves.

Which was an open, organized, and armed resistance against their ruler.

Rebellion and self-defense can be the same action. Just ask the Libyans.

[111987]

Beast919 wrote...

111987 wrote...

suusuuu wrote...

Why don't the reapers come every hundred years and wipe the synthetics instead?

That solves nothing in the long-term, which is what the Reapers are concerned with.

The reapers are concerned with the "long term" so they repeat a horrifying cycle for billions of years that has cost untold numbers of ENTIRE CIVILIZATIONS.

Your logic makes less sense every single time you write something.

Yeah you aren't understanding the argument at all...

[Wolven_Soul]

111987 wrote...

suusuuu wrote...

Why don't the reapers come every hundred years and wipe the synthetics instead?

That solves nothing in the long-term, which is what the Reapers are concerned with.

It solves a lot.  And it makes a heck of a lot more sense than killing the organics to stop them from creating synthetics.  If the Reapers were really so concerned about synthetics, they could establish themselves as the watch dogs of the galaxy. 

[gubaru]

Gibb_Shepard wrote...

This is a story. In a story we must be shown, not told.

What are we shown? That organics and machines can make peacer. That organics and machines can even fall in love.

Then we are TOLD that synthetics will always kill organics. It's poor story-telling and is a thematic inconsistency of the highest degree.

Exactly this. If the inability of synthetic and organic life to coexist is supposed to be the main theme of the game, they needed to do a better job of showing that instead of spending large parts of the second and third games undermining it. It robs the rationale for the Reapers of any feel of truth and the ending of much of it's attempted emotional weight.

[111987]

Wolven_Soul wrote...

111987 wrote...

suusuuu wrote...

Why don't the reapers come every hundred years and wipe the synthetics instead?

That solves nothing in the long-term, which is what the Reapers are concerned with.

It solves a lot.  And it makes a heck of a lot more sense than killing the organics to stop them from creating synthetics.  If the Reapers were really so concerned about synthetics, they could establish themselves as the watch dogs of the galaxy. 

No it doesn't. Keeping organics around too long means they advance to the point where they can create AI sophisticated enough to reach technological singularity.

[Tony208]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Beast919 wrote...

The Geth did not rebel, they defended themselves (and even held themselves back from total extinction of the Quarians.

That doesn't prevent their action from being a rebellion.

If there was ever a "organic-hunting galaxy-eating all-knowing AI threat" in the past, it obviously failed.  If it failed, there's no need to wipe out organic society.

If there wasn't one, WTF.  Did godkid suddenly wake up and be like "alright, I'm a bit worried this might happen one day, lets start killing people.

The argument is nonsense.  Absolute nonsense.

The counter-argument is nonsense, because it doesn't understand the nature of the threat, ie a singularity. Something that will happen in the future. The singularity they fear is something that would grow to a point it couldn't be contained.

Preventing something from reaching a critical point doesn't mean that you can always do that. The absurdity of this becomes evident when you think of any competitive event in which two groups are put against eachother: defense vs. offense in any sport, any war, any game of chance. Being able to block one foes attempt does not mean you will be able to block all of theirs at any point... and the nature of the singularity means that it only has to succede once to doom organic primacy in the galaxy forever.

Preventing a singularity only makes sense in our world, not the world of mass effect. There's synthetics fighting synthetics for crying out loud. Some other synthetic race can enter the milky way and wipe out the Reapers if they wanted to.

[Beast919]

Ciiran wrote...

This does, however, NOT disprove the Catalysts argument. It is not disprovable by design.

50 000 years seem way arbitrary btw. More than enough time for synthetics to be developed and destroy all organics imo.

You're correct - there is no way to disprove that eventually an AI *might* be created that will destroy all life.
There is however, a way to prove it hasn't happened.  Organic life still exists.
Therefore, the "solution" was created before there was a "problem." 
That is why his argument is absurd.

And as for the 50,000 years, don't forget, Sovereign misses his date with the 50,000 year cycle by over a 1000 years (assuming the Rachni truly were reaper controlled and the war had a meaning, other than ****s & giggles).  So thats a 1000 "bonus" years in the "danger zone" in which all organic life as we know it may have ceased to exist.  Efficient.

[Wolven_Soul]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Wolven_Soul wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Beast919 wrote...

The Geth did not rebel, they defended themselves (and even held themselves back from total extinction of the Quarians.

That doesn't prevent their action from being a rebellion.

Actually it does.  A rebellion is an open, organized, and armed resistance against one's government or ruler.  

The geth never rebelled against the quarians, they defended themselves.

Which was an open, organized, and armed resistance against their ruler.

Rebellion and self-defense can be the same action. Just ask the Libyans.

Yes, but a rebellion needs intent to really be a rebellion.  It was never the geth's intent to rebell.  Their intent was simply survival, to allow themselves the chance to continue to exist.