139 réponses à ce sujet

[Desteron]

I think what they were trying to go for (but was poorly executed) was the reapers want organics to be dominate so they can harvest them but if they continue to advance and they begin to merge with synthetics or are killed by synthetics, they are more difficult or impossible to harvest into new reapers.

So the reapers come every 50,000 to stop synthetic life from dominating over organic life so that the reapers are able to create new reapers (or in the terms of biology, PROCREATE!)

[Sdrol117]

Desteron wrote...

I think what they were trying to go for (but was poorly executed) was the reapers want organics to be dominate so they can harvest them but if they continue to advance and they begin to merge with synthetics or are killed by synthetics, they are more difficult or impossible to harvest into new reapers.

So the reapers come every 50,000 to stop synthetic life from dominating over organic life so that the reapers are able to create new reapers (or in the terms of biology, PROCREATE!)

Something like that, except for the fact they blow us ALL UP. ALL THE TIME. Really badly executed.

[Planeforger]

Was it ever explained in the game why they bother leaving every 50,000 years? Surely, given their ability to indoctrinate lesser races, it would have been wiser to just stick around and manage things 'on the ground', so to speak.

They've got the greatest military might in the galaxy, the ability to control whoever they want, and the ability to make many more Reapers...they're essentially the ultimate police force. Why not just work *with* the Council and all organic life to monitor/prohibit the development of synthetic life?

They'd be more than a match for any rising synthetic threats, and their presence would be a great deterrance to scientists exploring those areas. They could wipe out any threats very effectively, and since they're actively trying to promote organic life, who would rebel against them?
Plus, it seems to fit their goal of preserving organic life far more readily than 'we'll just kil them and hope they grow back'.

It also seems far more likely to work in the long run than just gambling on overpowering the entire galaxy every 50,000 years.

Modifié par Planeforger, 17 mars 2012 - 07:05 .

[Uchimura]

Han Shot First wrote...


Even so, what right does the Star Child have to deny intelligent beings their free will? Why do the civilizations of the galaxy need him to decide and guide their fate? Other than being a deity of course. I still can't believe the writers pulled the God card and introduced a supernatural being into the lore. It just seems so ridiculously out of place in the Mass Effect universe.

I think Bioware should have just kept it simple, and had the Reapers be nothing more than a civilization that uploaded itself into machines as way of achieving eternal life, and who wiped out civilizations for no other reason than to destroy potential challengers before they could threaten them, while creating new Reapers.

I don't think it's the 'god card' necessarily, but similar to the Prothean VI. It's just a representation of reapers in a form Shepard understands. It's 'the reapers', not a reaper or the reaper. The reapers maintained their plan ages ago for sake of control or whatever lore that is. Humans don't get to choose because there are no options, just assimilation and being wiped out.

[Sdrol117]

Planeforger wrote...

Was it ever explained in the game why they bother leaving every 50,000 years?

Surely, given their ability to indoctrinate lesser races, it would have been wiser to just stick around and manage things 'on the ground', so to speak. They've got the greatest military might in the galaxy, the ability to control whoever they want, and the ability to make many more Reapers - why not just work *with* the Council and all organic life to monitor/prohibit the development of synthetic life?

They'd be more than a match for any rising synthetic threats, and their presence would be a great deterrance to scientists exploring those areas. Plus, it seems to fit their goal of preserving organic life far more readily than 'we'll just kil them and hope they grow back'.

It also seems far more likely to work in the long run than just gambling on overpowering the entire galaxy every 50,000 years.

Well, they left sovereign behind to check on things so they can sleep and preserve energy. Other than that ummmm, Because storming the galaxy is wa cooler and scarier and makes you look like a total bad ass for game cutscenes? STOP POINTING OUT INTENSE PLOTHOLES. Things are bad enough as it is. They should've just pulled a Big Brother.

[xsdob]

Sdrol117 wrote...

xsdob wrote...

The reapers motivations made sense to me, This cycle has proven to be too risky to allow to exist. We killed two of them, and their pawns(the collectors), and showed that we were willing to destroy an entire system in order to protect ourselves. To them, were just as bad as the thing they are protecting the galaxy from, and must be destroyed.

The reapers aren't interested in protecting "us", but rather what might come after us, that is, pre-space races. They protect them by killing us, there by allowing them to grow up and prosper, and eventually come to the point where "they" become the new "us" and have to be destroyed.

It's self-repeating cycle, based around a flawed "what if" scenario, and it is terrifying that they are willing to cause so much death and destruction to accomplish it. They are, at the end of the day, more synthetic than organic when it comes to logic. They see themselves as being infallible, and that they are needed to perpetuate a false safety they themselves invented, like a machine with an error doing the same wrong thing over and over because nothing and no-one can convince it that it's wrong in doing so.

Except the very end of ME3 is STILL attempting to hold onto the harvesting theory, disproving everything you just said.

Not really, The starchild says their archiving races, preserving them, while at the same time making way for new civilizations to rise. When shepard brings up that they are "wiping out organic life" he states that they are harvesting thme, he does not say they are harvesting this cycle, just that they normally do so. In doing so, they restore order and allow new life to rise while storing the old life in reaper form. By their logic, they help organics ascend and give them the means to fight synthtics, basically, they see themselves as giving organics a means to stop synthetics from destroying them.

Yes the logic is flawed, but that's the point, they are flawed and they see themselves as being perfect in their way of doing things, they can't see the flaws their own ways have, thus dooming them and the rest of the galaxy to a neverending cycle of extinction. I thought that was the point of them as characters in the story, they remind me of the illusie man, flawed in his approach and blind to any other alternative, it takes an outside force unlike anything he's ever seen before to sway him to seeing reason and redeming himself. Same thing for the starchild, the crucible and shepards sucess in making and docking the crucible makes it see the errors in it's solutions, the difference is that it lets shepard be the one to decide, out of all the sloutions it's seen as viable, which will be the best, like legion's loyalty mission, he can't decide which option to choose, so he has shepard choose it.

Modifié par xsdob, 17 mars 2012 - 07:08 .

[tetrisblock4x1]

Sdrol117 wrote...

Desteron wrote...

I think what they were trying to go for (but was poorly executed) was the reapers want organics to be dominate so they can harvest them but if they continue to advance and they begin to merge with synthetics or are killed by synthetics, they are more difficult or impossible to harvest into new reapers.

So the reapers come every 50,000 to stop synthetic life from dominating over organic life so that the reapers are able to create new reapers (or in the terms of biology, PROCREATE!)

Something like that, except for the fact they blow us ALL UP. ALL THE TIME. Really badly executed.

Yeah, no. They were gathering piles of dead bodies for harvesting and they were mostly just attacking transports and military.

[Sdrol117]

xsdob wrote...

Sdrol117 wrote...

xsdob wrote...

The reapers motivations made sense to me, This cycle has proven to be too risky to allow to exist. We killed two of them, and their pawns(the collectors), and showed that we were willing to destroy an entire system in order to protect ourselves. To them, were just as bad as the thing they are protecting the galaxy from, and must be destroyed.

The reapers aren't interested in protecting "us", but rather what might come after us, that is, pre-space races. They protect them by killing us, there by allowing them to grow up and prosper, and eventually come to the point where "they" become the new "us" and have to be destroyed.

It's self-repeating cycle, based around a flawed "what if" scenario, and it is terrifying that they are willing to cause so much death and destruction to accomplish it. They are, at the end of the day, more synthetic than organic when it comes to logic. They see themselves as being infallible, and that they are needed to perpetuate a false safety they themselves invented, like a machine with an error doing the same wrong thing over and over because nothing and no-one can convince it that it's wrong in doing so.

Except the very end of ME3 is STILL attempting to hold onto the harvesting theory, disproving everything you just said.

Not really, The starchild says their archiving races, preserving them, while at the same time making way for new civilizations to rise. When shepard brings up that they are "wiping out organic life" he states that they are harvesting thme, he does not say they are harvesting this cycle, just that they normally do so. In doing so, they restore order and allow new life to rise while storing the old life in reaper form. By their logic, they help organics ascend and give them the means to fight synthtics, basically, they see themselves as giving organics a means to stop synthetics from destroying them.

Yes the logic is flawed, but that's the point, they are flawed and they see themselves as being perfect in their way of doing things, they can't see the flaws their own ways have, thus doming them and the rest of the galaxy to a neverending cycle of extinction. I thought that was the point of them as characters in the story, they remind me of the illusie man, flawed in his approach and blind to any other alternative, it takes an outside force unlike anything he's ever seen before to sway him to seeing reason and redeming himself. Same thing for the starchild, the crucible and shepards sucess in making and docking the crucible makes it see the errors in it's solutions, the difference is that it lets shepard be the one to decide, out of all the sloutions it's seen as viable, which will be the best, like legion's loyalty mission, he can't decide which option to choose, so he has shepard choose it.

You don't seem to understand, they made it VERY clear in ME2 and they brought it BACK in ME3 that they ARE harvesting humans. Or want to. But keeping pushing the wrong buttons on their keyboards and keep hitting the [Blow the **** out of everything] Hotkey instead of [Harvest the guys we blatantly want to harvest because that's been the story for the past two games] Hotkey.

[tetrisblock4x1]

Who said anything about the Reapers "resting in darkspace for 50,000 years"?The universe is a big place... I was kind of assuming that the 50,000 year cycle was because that's just how long it takes for the Reapers to harvest however many hundreds or thousands of galaxies that they're controlling.

[Han Shot First]

Uchimura wrote...

Han Shot First wrote...


Even so, what right does the Star Child have to deny intelligent beings their free will? Why do the civilizations of the galaxy need him to decide and guide their fate? Other than being a deity of course. I still can't believe the writers pulled the God card and introduced a supernatural being into the lore. It just seems so ridiculously out of place in the Mass Effect universe.

I think Bioware should have just kept it simple, and had the Reapers be nothing more than a civilization that uploaded itself into machines as way of achieving eternal life, and who wiped out civilizations for no other reason than to destroy potential challengers before they could threaten them, while creating new Reapers.

I don't think it's the 'god card' necessarily, but similar to the Prothean VI. It's just a representation of reapers in a form Shepard understands. It's 'the reapers', not a reaper or the reaper. The reapers maintained their plan ages ago for sake of control or whatever lore that is. Humans don't get to choose because there are no options, just assimilation and being wiped out.

Green ending: A magic wand gets waved and magic stuff happens. It is a god, unfortunately.

[xsdob]

Sdrol117 wrote...

xsdob wrote...

Sdrol117 wrote...

xsdob wrote...

The reapers motivations made sense to me, This cycle has proven to be too risky to allow to exist. We killed two of them, and their pawns(the collectors), and showed that we were willing to destroy an entire system in order to protect ourselves. To them, were just as bad as the thing they are protecting the galaxy from, and must be destroyed.

The reapers aren't interested in protecting "us", but rather what might come after us, that is, pre-space races. They protect them by killing us, there by allowing them to grow up and prosper, and eventually come to the point where "they" become the new "us" and have to be destroyed.

It's self-repeating cycle, based around a flawed "what if" scenario, and it is terrifying that they are willing to cause so much death and destruction to accomplish it. They are, at the end of the day, more synthetic than organic when it comes to logic. They see themselves as being infallible, and that they are needed to perpetuate a false safety they themselves invented, like a machine with an error doing the same wrong thing over and over because nothing and no-one can convince it that it's wrong in doing so.

Except the very end of ME3 is STILL attempting to hold onto the harvesting theory, disproving everything you just said.

Not really, The starchild says their archiving races, preserving them, while at the same time making way for new civilizations to rise. When shepard brings up that they are "wiping out organic life" he states that they are harvesting thme, he does not say they are harvesting this cycle, just that they normally do so. In doing so, they restore order and allow new life to rise while storing the old life in reaper form. By their logic, they help organics ascend and give them the means to fight synthtics, basically, they see themselves as giving organics a means to stop synthetics from destroying them.

Yes the logic is flawed, but that's the point, they are flawed and they see themselves as being perfect in their way of doing things, they can't see the flaws their own ways have, thus doming them and the rest of the galaxy to a neverending cycle of extinction. I thought that was the point of them as characters in the story, they remind me of the illusie man, flawed in his approach and blind to any other alternative, it takes an outside force unlike anything he's ever seen before to sway him to seeing reason and redeming himself. Same thing for the starchild, the crucible and shepards sucess in making and docking the crucible makes it see the errors in it's solutions, the difference is that it lets shepard be the one to decide, out of all the sloutions it's seen as viable, which will be the best, like legion's loyalty mission, he can't decide which option to choose, so he has shepard choose it.

You don't seem to understand, they made it VERY clear in ME2 and they brought it BACK in ME3 that they ARE harvesting humans. Or want to. But keeping pushing the wrong buttons on their keyboards and keep hitting the [Blow the **** out of everything] Hotkey instead of [Harvest the guys we blatantly want to harvest because that's been the story for the past two games] Hotkey.

Okay than, where in mass effect 3 did they say that they were still interested in harvesting organics for reaper conversiton. I know they were harvesting centers filled with people, the turians blew their's up in coordinated suicide bombings, but those were for converting people into the husk and other abominations the reapers use for shock troppers. So where do they specifically say that they want to make another reaper from the organics fo this cycle.

Hell, they probably just stored all of the information they got from organic communication systems and the extranet and wouldn't do much else, given the setback they've experienced here. It's not like they haven't resorted to complete extermination before.

Modifié par xsdob, 17 mars 2012 - 07:15 .

[Sdrol117]

xsdob wrote...

Sdrol117 wrote...

xsdob wrote...

Sdrol117 wrote...

xsdob wrote...

The reapers motivations made sense to me, This cycle has proven to be too risky to allow to exist. We killed two of them, and their pawns(the collectors), and showed that we were willing to destroy an entire system in order to protect ourselves. To them, were just as bad as the thing they are protecting the galaxy from, and must be destroyed.

The reapers aren't interested in protecting "us", but rather what might come after us, that is, pre-space races. They protect them by killing us, there by allowing them to grow up and prosper, and eventually come to the point where "they" become the new "us" and have to be destroyed.

It's self-repeating cycle, based around a flawed "what if" scenario, and it is terrifying that they are willing to cause so much death and destruction to accomplish it. They are, at the end of the day, more synthetic than organic when it comes to logic. They see themselves as being infallible, and that they are needed to perpetuate a false safety they themselves invented, like a machine with an error doing the same wrong thing over and over because nothing and no-one can convince it that it's wrong in doing so.

Except the very end of ME3 is STILL attempting to hold onto the harvesting theory, disproving everything you just said.

Not really, The starchild says their archiving races, preserving them, while at the same time making way for new civilizations to rise. When shepard brings up that they are "wiping out organic life" he states that they are harvesting thme, he does not say they are harvesting this cycle, just that they normally do so. In doing so, they restore order and allow new life to rise while storing the old life in reaper form. By their logic, they help organics ascend and give them the means to fight synthtics, basically, they see themselves as giving organics a means to stop synthetics from destroying them.

Yes the logic is flawed, but that's the point, they are flawed and they see themselves as being perfect in their way of doing things, they can't see the flaws their own ways have, thus doming them and the rest of the galaxy to a neverending cycle of extinction. I thought that was the point of them as characters in the story, they remind me of the illusie man, flawed in his approach and blind to any other alternative, it takes an outside force unlike anything he's ever seen before to sway him to seeing reason and redeming himself. Same thing for the starchild, the crucible and shepards sucess in making and docking the crucible makes it see the errors in it's solutions, the difference is that it lets shepard be the one to decide, out of all the sloutions it's seen as viable, which will be the best, like legion's loyalty mission, he can't decide which option to choose, so he has shepard choose it.

You don't seem to understand, they made it VERY clear in ME2 and they brought it BACK in ME3 that they ARE harvesting humans. Or want to. But keeping pushing the wrong buttons on their keyboards and keep hitting the [Blow the **** out of everything] Hotkey instead of [Harvest the guys we blatantly want to harvest because that's been the story for the past two games] Hotkey.

Okay than, where in mass effect 3 did they say that they were still interested in harvesting organics for reaper conversiton. I know they were harvesting centers filled with people, the turians blew their's up in coordinated suicide bombings, but those were for converting people into the husk and other abominations the reapers use for shock troppers. So where do they specifically say that they want to make another reaper from the organics fo this cycle.

Hell, they probably just stored all of the information they got from organic communication systems and the extranet and wouldn't do much else, given the setback they've experienced here. It's not like they haven't resorted to complete extermination before.

They specifically talk about harvesting people during the final mission. I mean, did you not even play the game?

[xsdob]

To Sdrol117; The old responses are getting to long, my fault for having long opinions, if you mean the hallways of the citadel, I would argue that they need living subjects in order to build a reaper, not dead tissue.

Modifié par xsdob, 17 mars 2012 - 07:24 .

[Uchimura]

Han Shot First wrote...

Uchimura wrote...

Han Shot First wrote...


Even so, what right does the Star Child have to deny intelligent beings their free will? Why do the civilizations of the galaxy need him to decide and guide their fate? Other than being a deity of course. I still can't believe the writers pulled the God card and introduced a supernatural being into the lore. It just seems so ridiculously out of place in the Mass Effect universe.

I think Bioware should have just kept it simple, and had the Reapers be nothing more than a civilization that uploaded itself into machines as way of achieving eternal life, and who wiped out civilizations for no other reason than to destroy potential challengers before they could threaten them, while creating new Reapers.

I don't think it's the 'god card' necessarily, but similar to the Prothean VI. It's just a representation of reapers in a form Shepard understands. It's 'the reapers', not a reaper or the reaper. The reapers maintained their plan ages ago for sake of control or whatever lore that is. Humans don't get to choose because there are no options, just assimilation and being wiped out.

Green ending: A magic wand gets waved and magic stuff happens. It is a god, unfortunately.

What do you mean? All the circuitry?

Nanites from Stargate

IDK.. the green ending is MK's friendship.

Modifié par Uchimura, 17 mars 2012 - 07:27 .

[Sdrol117]

xsdob wrote...

To Sdrol117; The old responses are getting to long, my fault for having long opinions, if you mean the hallways of the citadel, I would argue that they need living subjects in order to build a reaper, not dead tissue.

WHICH GOES BACK TO MY POINT THAT THEY WANT TO HARVEST US BUT THEY KEEP KILLING US. You have two options. Take the ending of the game at face value, or go the indoctrination theory. But EITHER WAY, the reapers are harvesting us, or telling Shepard they are harvesting us. Why go out of their way to indoctrinate that if they just want us dead? See where I am coming from?

You want to go to the Walmart to buy some candy, so when you get to Walmart you pull it all off the shelves and burn it with a flamethrower. Makes sense right?

[Uchimura]

^ You tranq the tiger before putting it in a cage.

[Han Shot First]

Uchimura wrote...

Han Shot First wrote...

Uchimura wrote...

Han Shot First wrote...


Even so, what right does the Star Child have to deny intelligent beings their free will? Why do the civilizations of the galaxy need him to decide and guide their fate? Other than being a deity of course. I still can't believe the writers pulled the God card and introduced a supernatural being into the lore. It just seems so ridiculously out of place in the Mass Effect universe.

I think Bioware should have just kept it simple, and had the Reapers be nothing more than a civilization that uploaded itself into machines as way of achieving eternal life, and who wiped out civilizations for no other reason than to destroy potential challengers before they could threaten them, while creating new Reapers.

I don't think it's the 'god card' necessarily, but similar to the Prothean VI. It's just a representation of reapers in a form Shepard understands. It's 'the reapers', not a reaper or the reaper. The reapers maintained their plan ages ago for sake of control or whatever lore that is. Humans don't get to choose because there are no options, just assimilation and being wiped out.

Green ending: A magic wand gets waved and magic stuff happens. It is a god, unfortunately.

What do you mean? All the circuitry?

Nanites from Stargate

All organic life gets altered for all time, not just individuals caught in the blast. They are altered by supernatural means. Also, Shepard was slipping into unconciousness and was not responding to Hackett. When the Star Child appears Shepard not only responds, but revives and is able to get to his feet. That, and Shep is exposed to space but is unaffected by it while in the presence of the Star Child.

I can understand the denial, as I went through it too. But Bioware pulled the god card.

[Uchimura]

As incriminating as saying I'm not in denial is, the ending didn't really ruin anything for me. It's not something I hate, but this thread looked interesting.

[Planeforger]

tetrisblock4x1 wrote...

Who said anything about the Reapers "resting in darkspace for 50,000 years"?The universe is a big place... I was kind of assuming that the 50,000 year cycle was because that's just how long it takes for the Reapers to harvest however many hundreds or thousands of galaxies that they're controlling.

The Protheans said that in Mass Effect 1. Sure, they could be wrong, but that would just mean yet another retcon.

[tetrisblock4x1]

I may never understand why all of Mass Effect was turned from a great big why can't we be friends story into space magic and "the lord works in mysterious ways - you figure it out" - Bioware.

[Han Shot First]

It still boggles the mind that a development team actually though that the revelation that the Reapers were some sort of divine plan from a god, was an excellent revelation that would go over well with fans. There had not been a single hint or foreshadowing of a divine hand at work through three games, and then whammo...suddenly out pops God to explain his motives for creating the Reapers.

Modifié par Han Shot First, 17 mars 2012 - 07:42 .

[Sdrol117]

Han Shot First wrote...

It still boggles the mind that a development team actually though that the revelation that the Reapers were some sort of divine plan from a god, was an excellent revelation that would go over well with fans. There had not been a single hint or foreshadowing of a divine hand at work through three games, and then whammo...suddenly out pops God to explain his motives for creating the Reapers.

I was kind of expecting the "beings of light" that were mentioned in the first game. This actually managed to be worse than that idea.

[tetrisblock4x1]

There was some divine symbolism in the game... like the design of the citadel throne room been all majestic, the way that the reapers used words such as ascension, salvation etc, the Geths Reaper shrine, the white, bright light elevator from Earth to the Citadel. It was far from the dominant theme, but there were traces.

Modifié par tetrisblock4x1, 17 mars 2012 - 07:48 .

[Sdrol117]

tetrisblock4x1 wrote...

There was some divine symbolism in the game... like the design of the citadel throne room been all majestic, the way that the reapers used words such as ascension, salvation, the white, bright light elevator from Earth to the Citadel. It was far from the dominant theme, but there were traces.

It was always sort of hinted that the Reapers were our otherwordly god forms though. They were the almighty beings. We found out they made all this stuff (I guess the catalyst actually made all this stuff?) and never took a second glance because it kinda made sense, we were meant to be like, bowing to them.