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[Han Shot First]

tetrisblock4x1 wrote...

There was some divine symbolism in the game... like the design of the citadel throne room been all majestic, the way that the reapers used words such as ascension, salvation, the white, bright light elevator from Earth to the Citadel. It was far from the dominant theme, but there were traces.

All throne rooms are magestic.

The supernatural was never really hinted at or forshadowed in the games. There isn't a single moment in Mass Effect 1 or Mass Effect 2 where Shepard encounters anything paranormal or magical. To introduce it suddenly in the conclusion of the trilogy was a mistake.

To compare it to another Sci Fi series, it would be like there not being a single mention of the Force in the original Star Wars movies, only to have it revealed in the last few minutes of Return of the Jedi when Luke uses it to magically defeat Vader.

Modifié par Han Shot First, 17 mars 2012 - 07:57 .

[Zaydin]

Um... I thought spoilers weren't allowed in this sub-forum, and I'm fairly certain spoilers are being brought up here.

[Planeforger]

Zaydin wrote...

Um... I thought spoilers weren't allowed in this sub-forum, and I'm fairly certain spoilers are being brought up here.

The TC doesn't have Mass Effect 3 registered, so this is the only sub-forum he can post in.

But I agree, he should have put spoiler tags in the title (even if it is obvious that he'd be discussing spoilers).

Modifié par Planeforger, 17 mars 2012 - 08:22 .

[Han Shot First]

Some of us are having problems registering ME3, and as such, are locked out of spoiler forums. I get a message telling me my account here doesn't match the one I use to play Mass Effect 3 when I try to register.

[tetrisblock4x1]

Why would I register my game on the forum? So I can have my forum account tied to game access? Not going to happen.

[Sharn01]

Han Shot First wrote...

tetrisblock4x1 wrote...

There was some divine symbolism in the game... like the design of the citadel throne room been all majestic, the way that the reapers used words such as ascension, salvation, the white, bright light elevator from Earth to the Citadel. It was far from the dominant theme, but there were traces.

All throne rooms are magestic.

The supernatural was never really hinted at or forshadowed in the games. There isn't a single moment in Mass Effect 1 or Mass Effect 2 where Shepard encounters anything paranormal or magical. To introduce it suddenly in the conclusion of the trilogy was a mistake.

To compare it to another Sci Fi series, it would be like there not being a single mention of the Force in the original Star Wars movies, only to have it revealed in the last few minutes of Return of the Jedi when Luke uses it to magically defeat Vader.

More like Luke lifts into the sky while being shocked by the emporer and sees a little ghost kid, the ghost kid tells Luke he can press one of three buttons, the first will kill everyone in the empire, but will also kill anyone who was ever associated with the empire in any way, the second will allow Luke to enslave the empire to his will, and the third will magically meld everyone who is in the empire with everyone who isnt and make them the same.  Of course no matter what decision he chooses, he will die and all hyperspace travel will cease to exsist.

Edit: I left out the best part.

After Luke presses the button, the Death Star explodes and all the Star Destroyers and TIE fighters stop functioning, you see a couple Ewoks cheer, then you see Han, Chewie, Leia and Lando on the Melinium Falcon,(yes, I know they where on the planet with the exception of Lando) get knocked out of hyperspace(not sure why they where in hyperspace) and crash land on a deserted planet, then the movie ends.

Modifié par Sharn01, 17 mars 2012 - 09:36 .

[Fs_nao]

To me the reapers' motivation makes sense. I won't say I like it because it's cheap but it makes sense.

Saying they are wrong because shepard achieved peace between quarians and geth is not a valid argument. Another race could create a new type of synthetics which could destroy every organic.

Also, there aren't only evolved species like quarians, humans salarians and asari in the galaxy. There are others which are not harvested by the reapers, they are part of the organic life too and they are those protected by the reapers.

So yeah, I expected more from bioware but still it makes sense in a larger point of view.

[tostadeira]

I agree with OP. I just finished the game and it was well... The conclusion i came and posted about is that this is a write along 3 part story. And as all write along the story doesn't make much sense at the end. The plot flaws are huge and the lore is just broken. I really get where the writer was going, BUT, to get there he/they had to build it, not just say it. After 5 years of epic voyage all ends with a: "Because i say so" argument. This was the last game i bought from BW for the next years. I was dupped with Swtor, and with ME3 i get this weird feeling of being a cash cow.
I like Sci-fi too much to accept this easily. And another thig. WHY, but WHY are all the alien races mamals. Even the robotic females have huge breasts. This is just plain sillyness. Please get real Bw. get REAL!

Modifié par tostadeira, 17 mars 2012 - 09:22 .

[tetrisblock4x1]

Han Shot First wrote...

tetrisblock4x1 wrote...

There was some divine symbolism in the game... like the design of the citadel throne room been all majestic, the way that the reapers used words such as ascension, salvation, the white, bright light elevator from Earth to the Citadel. It was far from the dominant theme, but there were traces.

To compare it to another Sci Fi series, it would be like there not being a single mention of the Force in the original Star Wars movies, only to have it revealed in the last few minutes of Return of the Jedi when Luke uses it to magically defeat Vader.

No, this is worse. You know what the literary term Deus Ex Machina means? The words were latin, and their english translation?  "Deus Ex Macina" = God from the machine = VI Citadel kid. It kind of gives me the impression that Bioware might be ****ing with us...

[Koju737]

I don't really see how the god card is being pulled here... I mean its never specifically stated that its a god or a deity of some sort. I'm just gonna go with the idea that star child is a highly evolved AI construct that is essentially the citadel ala what EDI is to the normandy. Because its not really explained at all either way, what the hell that thing exactly is, and there is no way I'm accepting that its a "god" or supernatural deity, unless specifically stated otherwise by a dev( which in that case I might as well snap the game disc in half.)

In any case I thought the reasoning was quite excellent, to me its what I always imagined the reapers to be: a necessary evil to preserve organic life as we know it. The reapers come in and wipe out all advanced organic life every 50000 years to ensure that no civilization would become advanced enough to create a synthetic lifeform that would become so powerful it wipes out ALL organic life for good. So they kill/harvest the advanced ones to sustain their numbers and let the primal ones flourish untarnished and wholly unaware until the next cycle. They are not wiping out "all" organic life, they are just providing order to the chaos, and in a way preserving its continued and varied existence or so is their understanding. I dont agree with it, but I completely understand it.

[tetrisblock4x1]

I don't really see how the god card is being pulled here... I mean its
never specifically stated that its a god or a deity of some sort. I'm
just gonna go with the idea that star child is a highly evolved AI
construct that is essentially the citadel ala what EDI is to the
normandy. Because its not really explained at all either way, what the
hell that thing exactly is, and there is no way I'm accepting that its a
"god" or supernatural deity, unless specifically stated otherwise by a
dev( which in that case I might as well snap the game disc in half.)

This is all possible, but Bioware made no comment on these things. They just give us some random element that solves our problems, and don't explain anything and that is what you call a plot hole. When people use terms like deus ex machina, space magic and god kid they're referring to the sudden appearance of the catalyst and the way he mysteriously solved our reaper problem for us.

[Koju737]

XxTaLoNxX wrote...

Koju737 wrote...

In any case I thought the reasoning was quite excellent, to me its what I always imagined the reapers to be: a necessary evil to preserve organic life as we know it. The reapers come in and wipe out all advanced organic life every 50000 years to ensure that no civilization would become advanced enough to create a synthetic lifeform that would become so powerful it wipes out ALL organic life for good.

You can't be serious...<_<

What? For good is the key here. The reapers arent wiping out ALL organic life. They are merely the means to an end. And that end is to prevent any advanced civilization creating a synthetic so immensley powerful and uncontrolled that it annilhates and stunts organic evolution forever. Im not sure what were missing here? What doesnt make sense( as far as the reapers reasoning is concerned)? Makes sense to me. 

Also, before you say anything, the reapers arent exactly synthetic... they are a bit of both....organic and synthetic atleast from what I understood. Far more intelligent than any average organic or synthetic could ever hope to be. Again I dont agree with their understanding but I do understand.

Modifié par Koju737, 17 mars 2012 - 10:15 .

[tetrisblock4x1]

the relays excess energy seem to have all been blown out somewhere away from earth and the video with shep breathing prooves that the relays didn't go into a supernova. I can see your upset, but this whole "relay nova "plothole" is grasping at straws.

Modifié par tetrisblock4x1, 17 mars 2012 - 10:12 .

[Sebbe1337o]

I liked Drew Karpyshyn's explaination more, about dark matter/energy.

But that "We kill you so you won't be killed by synthetics" isn't just that plain and simple. They kill you before synthetics can nuke every planet in the milky way, and therefore make more and more places unhabitable, so no new races can evolve etc... It's not just black and white people...

And as I said, this would make more sense if they'd used Drew Karpyshyn's explaination, but if there's an expansion, maybe they will?

[tetrisblock4x1]

XxTaLoNxX wrote...

tetrisblock4x1 wrote...

the relays excess energy seem to have all been blown out somewhere away from earth and the video with shep breathing prooves that the relays didn't go into a supernova. I can see your upset, but this whole "relay nova "plothole" is grasping at straws.

Except that is actually what happens. It's in the lore of the game. <_<

By lore do you mean the wiki? And there are multiple ways of destroying things. Shepard is still breathing, so that means that the catalyst has less destructive methods of destroying the relays which makes sense since he was probably around when they were made. It's the only theory that makes actual sense.

Modifié par tetrisblock4x1, 17 mars 2012 - 10:33 .

[Purge the heathens]

I can live with the ending, especially when the indoctrination theory is taken into account. I am content to make up my own explanations, from the End-o-tron to teleporting squad mates, though I would prefer Bioware giving me definite ones. Still, the Reaper explanation is my sole real disappointment.

First off, I like to believe that the Catalyst lied. Shepard is heavily wounded, perhaps even dying, so it didn't want to argue philosophy for half an hour before goading Shepard into doing what would seemingly stop the Reapers.

For the truth, I would dislike any motivation that has the Reapers doing what they do because they -have- to, casts them as servants or makes them out to originally have been created by rather than from someone. Militant transhumanists... transspeciesists? would have satisfied me. "We're perfect, you should be, too; not asking for your consent, might makes right." Or perhaps something like preparing for the Omega point.

Modifié par Purge the heathens, 17 mars 2012 - 10:43 .

[Klimax]

XxTaLoNxX wrote...

Han Shot First wrote...

Uchimura wrote...

Actually it makes sense perfectly in the context of what you've already experienced in the ME universe. Take Krogan for example. They reached a point where they could kill a whole race if they wanted to. Then the genophage happened, basically achieveing the same thing.

It's a concept that's been used in quite a few stories.

The argument was that by wiping out galactic civilization every 50,000 years it prevents the creation of pure synthetics that would then wipe out said civilizations. We 'protect life by killing it' does not make sense, as the Reapers could just as easily swoop in and annihilate the synthetics. if protection of oragnic life is really their goal, why annihilate it?

The star child's argument was also on shaky ground because Shepard had just spent the entire game molding EDI into a being that was willing to sacrifice its own life to save organics, and in getting the Geth to ally with the Quarians. Shepard has disproved the theory that cooperation between synthetics and organics was impossible, but isn't given the option of calling the Star Child on it.

And even worse, the Star Child is apparently supposed to be some kind of deity. It just seemed so completely out of place in Mass Effect.

Honestly it's just horrible writing. And anyone who wasn't like, "WTF?!?" at their logic either is a brain-damaged ape on auto-pilot or is lacking somewhere in their "logistical analysis" to a point where it makes perfect sense to them if they see a dog driving a NASCAR.

Just because some people don't get it must mean that nobody at all don't get it or must be brain damaged or something. This is not projection not at all... (Sorry, but this assumes everybody is in same hole as you)

[Klimax]

Sdrol117 wrote...

Planeforger wrote...

Was it ever explained in the game why they bother leaving every 50,000 years?

Surely, given their ability to indoctrinate lesser races, it would have been wiser to just stick around and manage things 'on the ground', so to speak. They've got the greatest military might in the galaxy, the ability to control whoever they want, and the ability to make many more Reapers - why not just work *with* the Council and all organic life to monitor/prohibit the development of synthetic life?

They'd be more than a match for any rising synthetic threats, and their presence would be a great deterrance to scientists exploring those areas. Plus, it seems to fit their goal of preserving organic life far more readily than 'we'll just kil them and hope they grow back'.

It also seems far more likely to work in the long run than just gambling on overpowering the entire galaxy every 50,000 years.

Well, they left sovereign behind to check on things so they can sleep and preserve energy. Other than that ummmm, Because storming the galaxy is wa cooler and scarier and makes you look like a total bad ass for game cutscenes? STOP POINTING OUT INTENSE PLOTHOLES. Things are bad enough as it is. They should've just pulled a Big Brother.

What plothole? Currently no such thing there. (Ignoring ME1, ME2 and what has been in new entries in codex in ME3 too doesn't make plothole)

They simple wait for next oragnicsa for new additions to their fleet. And what should they do meanwhile? Using energy just wating? Inefficent.

[Klimax]

XxTaLoNxX wrote...

Koju737 wrote...

In any case I thought the reasoning was quite excellent, to me its what I always imagined the reapers to be: a necessary evil to preserve organic life as we know it. The reapers come in and wipe out all advanced organic life every 50000 years to ensure that no civilization would become advanced enough to create a synthetic lifeform that would become so powerful it wipes out ALL organic life for good.

You can't be serious...<_<

Another projection?  Why not? It makes in-lore sense and was hinted at through out the games