139 réponses à ce sujet

[Klimax]

XxTaLoNxX wrote...

tetrisblock4x1 wrote...

I don't really see how the god card is being pulled here... I mean its
never specifically stated that its a god or a deity of some sort. I'm
just gonna go with the idea that star child is a highly evolved AI
construct that is essentially the citadel ala what EDI is to the
normandy. Because its not really explained at all either way, what the
hell that thing exactly is, and there is no way I'm accepting that its a
"god" or supernatural deity, unless specifically stated otherwise by a
dev( which in that case I might as well snap the game disc in half.)

This is all possible, but Bioware made no comment on these things. They just give us some random element that solves our problems, and don't explain anything and that is what you call a plot hole. When people use terms like deus ex machina, space magic and god kid they're referring to the sudden appearance of the catalyst and the way he mysteriously solved our reaper problem for us.

Except he really didn't solve any problem... all the choices leave us with even more problems. Massive simultaneous system shattering super novas.... either way you go EVERTHING is ****ed by the _____ ____s exploding. Because when they do they create super novas and black holes, if that happens all over the entire galaxy at the same time then the entire universe is destroyed.

So none of the choices solve any problem. Only make EVERYTHING worse.

There is difference between smashing huge asteroid into relay causing uncotrolled releasse of energy and controlled direction release. Most likely it drains most of energy of that massive core inside relay, meaning there is not much for destructive release anyway. (Saw how those rings spinned much faster?)

[Purge the heathens]

Decent people don't write quadruple posts. A simple @ can work wonders.

[Tirigon]

Han Shot First wrote...

The 'we protect you by killing you' bit just did not make any sense.

It's either that or "we reproduce by turning you into greyish goo and and making a 2km-long Terminator action figure".

Both doesnt make an awful lot of sense.

[Klimax]

XxTaLoNxX wrote...

Koju737 wrote...

XxTaLoNxX wrote...

Koju737 wrote...

In any case I thought the reasoning was quite excellent, to me its what I always imagined the reapers to be: a necessary evil to preserve organic life as we know it. The reapers come in and wipe out all advanced organic life every 50000 years to ensure that no civilization would become advanced enough to create a synthetic lifeform that would become so powerful it wipes out ALL organic life for good.

You can't be serious...<_<

What? For good is the key here. The reapers arent wiping out ALL organic life. They are merely the means to an end. And that end is to prevent any advanced civilization creating a synthetic so immensley powerful and uncontrolled that it annilhates and stunts organic evolution forever. Im not sure what were missing here? What doesnt make sense( as far as the reapers reasoning is concerned)? Makes sense to me.

AI shackles (think I Robot's 3 laws)
EDI
Geth

Those three things completely invalidate the EXTREMELY minute chance that this situation would ever happen.
Not to mention synthetics have one MAJOR flaw that they share. They are bound only by equations and logic. This means that any outside variable can not be accounted for and thus will cause the synthetics to fail.

This has been shown multiple times previously in the past games... and I won't go into detail about this because it would involve way too many spoilers.

Geth can be attacked ending peace (if you saved them) or they can change consensus to organics are threat/no longer needed/... or once again another rougue faction rises and uses reaper tech to force rest of geth to follow.

AI shackles are not permament - can be disabled, malfunction or not be sufficent (evolving AI or not fully understood).

The only counterpoint is EDI, but not sufficent - ONE rogue AI is sufficent to eliminate all organics. Hypothesis is every synthetic can get along with organics, but only existence of one counter is sufficent to disprove that.

[furryrage59]

The reaper logic in ME3 makes me feel sad.

[Klimax]

XxTaLoNxX wrote...

tetrisblock4x1 wrote...

XxTaLoNxX wrote...

tetrisblock4x1 wrote...

the relays excess energy seem to have all been blown out somewhere away from earth and the video with shep breathing prooves that the relays didn't go into a supernova. I can see your upset, but this whole "relay nova "plothole" is grasping at straws.

Except that is actually what happens. It's in the lore of the game. <_<

By lore do you mean the wiki? And there are multiple ways of destroying things. Shepard is still breathing, so that means that the catalyst has less destructive methods of destroying the relays which makes sense since he was probably around when they were made. It's the only theory that makes actual sense.

No. I don't even visit the wiki. Seriously? This is an actual argument you are trying to make? Here:
www.gamefront.com/mass-effect-3-ending-hatred-5-reasons-the-fans-are-right/4/

The fact is destroying a Mass Relay causes a chain reaction that destroys the system it is located in as a fail safe built in by the same mysterious beings that created the Reapers.

THIS IS THE LORE.

Destruction of system only when releasse of energy is uncontrolled. (AFAIK it is said even in codex, which trumps outside sources) Like smashing bloody huge asteroid into it. That wasn't safeguard just result of destabilised huge core. (Like nuclear reactor - be it fission or fusion)

[Kakita Tatsumaru]

Personally I think they should have stuck to the first explanation they gave: reaping compatible technologies every 50.000 years. The citatel and the Mass relays were supposed to be there to make our technologies compatible with them by orienting the way we create it.

[Alithinos]

There is a problem with explaining the Reapers,and the problem is that in each game we get a different reason.

1.In Mass Effect we learn that Reapers existed since always and weren't created by anyone,and that the reason they kill organic life is so complex it is unfathomable to organic minds.

2.In Mass Effect 2 we learn that Reapers are made up from organic life,and that the proteins of organic life is a building resource for them,and we are also get to know that they can reproduce,and order the making of themselves by using indoctrinated workers.So we get to assume that the reason they do it is to gain resources to reproduce themselves.

3.In Mass Effect 3 it is told to us that the Reapers where actually made by some people that where organics,that they are not each an individual,but are all machines used by a single entity,and that they do it to protect us.


3 different games and you got 3 different explanations on who the Reapers are and why they do what they do. Which of all of them to believe ? Was Sovereign lying to you back in ME1,and why do something like that if he really believed there would be no way for Shepard to stop them ?
Or is the Star Child lying to Shepard ? Someone said a lie,but we don't get to learn who.

[Armass81]

Let's look at sovereigns speech from ME1:

There is a realm of existance so far beyond your comprehension, you cannot even fathom it. I am beyond your comprehension. (Millions of minds uploaded into reaper would be exactly that, a realm beyond our comprehension. We dont know what it is to be a reaper.)

Your extinction is inevitable(with singularity, where machines take over and consume everything), we are the end of everything (they store old life forever in reaper form).

We have no beginning, we have no end, we are infinite.(technically true, remember its the former species called Nazara that is turned into the core speaking here. In their current form they are far above any organic life and effectively immortal.)

What do you want form us, slaves? Resources?

My kind trancends your very undestanding, we are each a nation, free of all weakness. You cannot possibly grasp the nature of our existance. (He dodges the question, and only talks about how wonderful being a reaper is. He thinks, as all reapers do, that we are too primitive to understand why the cycles must continue. Arrogance from a trancended being.)

Modifié par Armass81, 17 mars 2012 - 11:25 .

[tetrisblock4x1]

AwesomeName wrote...

Where on Earth are people getting the idea that the Catalyst was a supernatural diety???

Figure of speech. People are always attributing and blaming the unexplained on gods, it's been like that for thousands of years now. Just look at Greeks and all of their dozens of dieties. It's the same mentality here. Nothing that the catalyst did was adequately explained, so people are defaulting to calling the catalyst a "god", and the crucible "space magic"

Modifié par tetrisblock4x1, 17 mars 2012 - 11:13 .

[Tirigon]

AwesomeName wrote...

Where on Earth are people getting the idea that the Catalyst was a supernatural diety??? And why do people insist on perpetuating the idea that the Reapers kill organics when they're converted into Reaper form??

Probably because scientific studies have shown that the chance of surviving being turned into goo is not awfully high.

[Klimax]

Purge the heathens wrote...

Decent people don't write quadruple posts. A simple @ can work wonders.

Sorry, forgot myself. (As I read I simply opened new and new tabs...)

Will next time remember to manually "multiquote" as is posiible in better forum softwares.

[Tirigon]

AwesomeName wrote...


It's not just "goo" though :/.  Jesus, is that what everyone thinks?  The technical details aren't explained, but they're still alive and thinking.  It's just not clear how that works - do they exist in a virtual heaven like in Evangelion, or are they all indoctrinated and think as a single cohesive entity?  The conversation with Legion in ME2 implies it's the latter but we don't know.  In any case they're definitely not just turned into goop for the sake of it.

Actually, it is not a good thing as stated by Legion: The Geth DO want to share their consciousness, but they consider the forceful merging by the reapers as the wrong way. And THEY dont even have to be deleted for such an end, unlike Organics.

That aside, here we touch unto a fundamental difference in attitudes: You obviously think that if there is room for thought which we can fill with assumptions and speculate about, that is a good thing.

For me, it is the definition of a plothole. Ignoring speculations and just arguing from what we actually see in the game, it IS indeed just goo.

And the reaction of your crew about to be reaperified in ME2 should show you that apparently, they dont like it either.

[tetrisblock4x1]

AwesomeName wrote...

tetrisblock4x1 wrote...

AwesomeName wrote...

Where on Earth are people getting the idea that the Catalyst was a supernatural diety???

Figure of speech. People are always attributing and blaming the unexplained on gods, it's been like that for thousands of years now. Just look at Greeks and all of their dozens of dieties. It's the same mentality here. Nothing that the catalyst did was adequately explained, so people are defaulting to calling the catalyst a "god", and the crucible "space magic"

Well that's odd to me.  Personally I think it's fairly obvious that the Catalyst and Citadel are as created as the Reapers are.  I can't be the only one who naturally assumed that they were created by some species (possibly one of the first and most technologically advanced species that ever flourished in the Milky Way) who became so advanced but had such huge problems that the Catalyst and the Reapers were their final option.

The main reasons people are calling the ending space magic and the catalyst a god involve stuff like the vague explanation of how the relays didn't go into a supernova, and how there were no explanation at all for the middle option. Apparantly everyone just gets hit by a green light and suddenly that turns them into hybrids. Another 5 minutes of talking to the AI could have answered so many questions.

[Kakita Tatsumaru]

AwesomeName wrote...
Where was this explained initially?

Mass Effect 1.

[Alithinos]

AwesomeName wrote...

tetrisblock4x1 wrote...

AwesomeName wrote...

Where on Earth are people getting the idea that the Catalyst was a supernatural diety???

Figure of speech. People are always attributing and blaming the unexplained on gods, it's been like that for thousands of years now. Just look at Greeks and all of their dozens of dieties. It's the same mentality here. Nothing that the catalyst did was adequately explained, so people are defaulting to calling the catalyst a "god", and the crucible "space magic"

Well that's odd to me.  Personally I think it's fairly obvious that the Catalyst and Citadel are as created as the Reapers are.  I can't be the only one who naturally assumed that they were created by some species (possibly one of the first and most technologically advanced species that ever flourished in the Milky Way) who became so advanced but had such huge problems that the Catalyst and the Reapers were their final option.

My understanding was that the star child was a simple vi or ai.
A governing intelligence that controlled the Reapers and its 'life' was bounded to some cables I shot.
Yeah,it was an artificial intelligence controlling the Reapers,or at least that's what it tells us.
But of course that contradicts the explanations given by Sovereign in ME1.