139 réponses à ce sujet

[Klimax]

XxTaLoNxX wrote...

Klimax wrote...

XxTaLoNxX wrote...

Koju737 wrote...

In any case I thought the reasoning was quite excellent, to me its what I always imagined the reapers to be: a necessary evil to preserve organic life as we know it. The reapers come in and wipe out all advanced organic life every 50000 years to ensure that no civilization would become advanced enough to create a synthetic lifeform that would become so powerful it wipes out ALL organic life for good.

You can't be serious...

Another projection?  Why not? It makes in-lore sense and was hinted at through out the games

No. It actually makes no sense. And no, the only previous LORE was that Reapers come every 50,000 years and assimilate all advanced organic life-forms, the reasoning behind this was not revealed, or hinted at until the final 10 minutes of ME3.

ME 1 - Playthroughs: 8
ME 2 - Playthroughs: 6

I am pretty damn positive that my 300+ hours and in depth absorbtion of all the lore I could get my eyes wrapped around in the game gives me a pretty damned good understanding of the lore of the ME universe.

Klimax wrote...

XxTaLoNxX wrote...

[Except
he really didn't solve any problem... all the choices leave us with even
more problems. Massive simultaneous system shattering super novas....
either way you go EVERTHING is ****ed by the _____ ____s exploding.
Because when they do they create super novas and black holes, if that
happens all over the entire galaxy at the same time then the entire
universe is destroyed.

So none of the choices solve any problem. Only make EVERYTHING worse.

There
is difference between smashing huge asteroid into relay causing
uncotrolled releasse of energy and controlled direction release. Most
likely it drains most of energy of that massive core inside relay,
meaning there is not much for destructive release anyway. (Saw how those
rings spinned much faster?)

This is another example of you not fully understanding the lore and what happens...

Mass Relays have built in fail safes that deliberately destroy the system they occupy in the event that the relay be destroyed. No if's, and's, or but's.

1. Reread Sovereing speech in ME1, EDI and Harbringer in ME2, Anderson,Hackett ande Starchild in ME3 + Liara's introduction in the begining. Assimilation is good summation of whole deal. (Reapors preserve each advanced civilisation making space for new one - call it reaping,harvesting,assimilation (sounds borg-like) or whatever idea is still same)

2.Link about that failsafe? I don't have as many run-throughs as you (ME1 3; ME2 4; ME3 currently 1) and only recall mentioning of destruction is in Arrival and there was said that effects unkown, but likely nova. I know that prior that, relays where thought to be indestructible and majority of examinations failed.

I am pretty sure I understand lore quite well (still remember inital discussion about Arrival) until you prove otherwise. So far I saw only assertions...

===

XxTaLoNxX wrote...

Klimax wrote...

Geth can be attacked ending peace (if you saved them) or they can change consensus to organics are threat/no longer needed/... or once again another rougue faction rises and uses reaper tech to force rest of geth to follow.

AI shackles are not permament - can be disabled, malfunction or not be sufficent (evolving AI or not fully understood).

The only counterpoint is EDI, but not sufficent - ONE rogue AI is sufficent to eliminate all organics. Hypothesis is every synthetic can get along with organics, but only existence of one counter is sufficent to disprove that.

Decent argument, but it seems again you are only seeing what you want to see.
You assume that all synthetics are war-hungry and hell bent on destruction.
Yet you forget that the Geth only act in self-preservation and they only went as far as to "push" the Quarians off their homeworld because it was the Quarians who would not relent in their hatred of the Geth.

Then a group of Geth broke off / seperated from the collective and joined the Reapers... AGAIN only out of a need to preserve themselves, and Legion even explains that THOSE Geth still thought the Reapers were wrong in their logic and would eventually destroy the Geth to prevent the Geth from preventing them.

I do not assume and not forget. Geth as AI will do what is determined to be neccesary. (selfpreservation,advancing) However there can be case of error (See Legion's speech in ME2 The House divided) causing suboptimal course of action.) More or less you didn't invalidate mine post, just added to one part.

Anyway it can go eitherway with geth and knowing Overlord, we know that even if Geth would stay on same course (and no organics would attack/threaten them again) still one can create AI which won't be like Geth (and each blackbox is unique) causing trouble and possibly fulfilling Starchild's(reaper's) prediction.

In the end,, one AI is not template for other AIs.

===

Tirigon wrote...

AwesomeName wrote...

Where on Earth are people getting the idea that the Catalyst was a supernatural diety??? And why do people insist on perpetuating the idea that the Reapers kill organics when they're converted into Reaper form??

Probably because scientific studies have shown that the chance of surviving being turned into goo is not awfully high.

Any sufficently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic... (Although Bioware should have used originall explanation in ME2 instead of finall - was clearer.)

Modifié par Klimax, 17 mars 2012 - 12:13 .

[crazygrinner]

Personally I like the implied reason in ME2 better than that short little spiel given by the AI/kid in ME3. The urge to reproduce can be a powerful motivator.

Besides, that explains why none of the Reapers talk about it. Who wants to discuss their reproductive habits with strangers?

[AkiKishi]

Theres nothing that special about the Reapers that you don't see a million times in other games. For instance FFX.

You meet Sin (I'll used that because he's similiar to a Reaper) Sin kicks your arse. You then spend the game accumulating the knowledge and power to beat Sin.

You have plenty of points over the trilogy where you can up your game to put you on a more even footing with the Reapers when then finally arrive. The whole idea is about delaying them, but if you don't do anything productive with that time then you have no choice but to pull out a Deus Ex Machina to solve the problem.

Hence we end up with some out of blue nonsense explanation and a "pick a button" resolution. Then some tacked on stuff that makes zero sense.

Modifié par BobSmith101, 17 mars 2012 - 12:27 .

[Klimax]

Tirigon wrote...

AwesomeName wrote...


It's not just "goo" though :/. Jesus, is that what everyone thinks? The technical details aren't explained, but they're still alive and thinking. It's just not clear how that works - do they exist in a virtual heaven like in Evangelion, or are they all indoctrinated and think as a single cohesive entity? The conversation with Legion in ME2 implies it's the latter but we don't know. In any case they're definitely not just turned into goop for the sake of it.

Actually, it is not a good thing as stated by Legion: The Geth DO want to share their consciousness, but they consider the forceful merging by the reapers as the wrong way. And THEY dont even have to be deleted for such an end, unlike Organics.

That aside, here we touch unto a fundamental difference in attitudes: You obviously think that if there is room for thought which we can fill with assumptions and speculate about, that is a good thing.

For me, it is the definition of a plothole. Ignoring speculations and just arguing from what we actually see in the game, it IS indeed just goo.

And the reaction of your crew about to be reaperified in ME2 should show you that apparently, they dont like it either.

You expect everything to be explained to you? It doesn't generally work that way. (I don't think even Isaac Asimov explained everything or Arthur Clark) I understood plotholes to be things which cannot be explained in-universe without at minimum contradicting other parts of it or story or which doesn't logically follow at all from premise. Just absence is not plothole. (And in ME universe you get quite large framework and sufficent knowledge to fill missing pieces)

Heh reaction everybody would have, but then majority of organics favour standalone existence. See Legion puzzlement in House Divided when he discovered that Heretics wer spying on True Geths.

===

Alithinos wrote...

AwesomeName wrote...

tetrisblock4x1 wrote...

AwesomeName wrote...

Where on Earth are people getting the idea that the Catalyst was a supernatural diety???

Figure of speech. People are always attributing and blaming the unexplained on gods, it's been like that for thousands of years now. Just look at Greeks and all of their dozens of dieties. It's the same mentality here. Nothing that the catalyst did was adequately explained, so people are defaulting to calling the catalyst a "god", and the crucible "space magic"

Well that's odd to me. Personally I think it's fairly obvious that the Catalyst and Citadel are as created as the Reapers are. I can't be the only one who naturally assumed that they were created by some species (possibly one of the first and most technologically advanced species that ever flourished in the Milky Way) who became so advanced but had such huge problems that the Catalyst and the Reapers were their final option.

My understanding was that the star child was a simple vi or ai.
A governing intelligence that controlled the Reapers and its 'life' was bounded to some cables I shot.
Yeah,it was an artificial intelligence controlling the Reapers,or at least that's what it tells us.
But of course that contradicts the explanations given by Sovereign in ME1.

You mean "each reaper is nation"? No neccesary - they might have determined that peer-to-peer decision making is inefficent and slow and then created some sort of hierarhcy with oldest reaper being head and directly interfacing with Starchild entity in Citadel. (as controller) I thiink codex had something about this in entry about Harbringer.

[A Paperback Hero]

Han Shot First wrote...

I think Bioware should have just kept it simple, and had the Reapers be nothing more than a civilization that uploaded itself into machines as way of achieving eternal life, and who wiped out civilizations for no other reason than to destroy potential challengers before they could threaten them, while creating new Reapers.

And that right there would have lead up to a perfectly great david and goliath ending. Instead we get deus ex machina 'star child' because its 'art' though in every other medium where deus ex machina is invoked, it usually ruins the reputation of the story and the author.

Sorry but Casey Hudson thought final boss fights and that kind of thing are just to "video gamey" as he calls it. Why he decided to change the video game medium from being 'video gamey' is anyones guess in the end, but his non-'video gamey' ending was less that brilliant and derailed the entire theme of the story and the game.

Modifié par A Paperback Hero, 17 mars 2012 - 12:32 .

[Dave Exclamation Mark Yognaut]

The "genocide is reaper sex" thing from ME2 was actually a lot more creative then "reapers are giant robots made by an organic species to do X."

[Darth Death]

What was the point of the crucible? It wasn't even used at the end.

[A Paperback Hero]

Darth Death wrote...

What was the point of the crucible? It wasn't even used at the end.

Pretty sure the crucible was a giant condum that went on top of the citadel so that it could shoot its beam. Literally.

[Klimax]

XxTaLoNxX wrote...

Klimax wrote...


2.Link about that failsafe? I don't have as many run-throughs as you (ME1 3; ME2 4; ME3 currently 1) and only recall mentioning of destruction is in Arrival and there was said that effects unkown, but likely nova. I know that prior that, relays where thought to be indestructible and majority of examinations failed.

Seriously? You want me to link you to the lore? Where?
I'm tired but were you not the one that also invalidated the wikia? (although I agree wikias are horrible sources)
It would be futile for me to link a wiki article that is subject to user input and interpretation.

Play the game, it's explained.

Either codex entry (mass effect wiki would then suffice) or book (Name and chapter)/comics or which mission you reffer to and then which one and at what point (I can then check it out again)

So any reference? I stated I played all parts of them and do not recall any mention of failsafe. But didn't read books nor comics. It is easy to point where they said invalidating by example my argument. (I claim isn't, you claim is, it is far easier to prove existence then nonexistance)

[AkiKishi]

Armass81 wrote...

There is a realm of existance so far beyond your comprehension, you cannot even fathom it. I am beyond your comprehension. (Millions of minds uploaded into reaper would be exactly that, a realm beyond our comprehension. We dont know what it is to be a reaper.)

Probably something like this.



The donimant personality would be similiar to Jecht and the "star god" would be Yevan.

The purpose of Sin in FFX is to prevent any settlement becoming big enough to challenge Bevelle and thus trigger another war like the one Yevan went through 1000 years ago. It's a similiar theory to the Reapers, we kill you so you don't kill yoursevles on a larger scale.

The conclusion of the game is way more satisfying even if it is still sad.

[Kakita Tatsumaru]

BobSmith101 wrote...
The donimant personality would be similiar to Jecht and the "star god" would be Yevan.

The purpose of Sin in FFX is to prevent any settlement becoming big enough to challenge Bevelle and thus trigger another war like the one Yevan went through 1000 years ago. It's a similiar theory to the Reapers, we kill you so you don't kill yoursevles on a larger scale.

The conclusion of the game is way more satisfying even if it is still sad.

Minus Sin is a weapon used against ennemies (or potential ennemies), not against your own kind that you are trying to protect. It's "We kill you so you don't kill us." not "We kill you so you don't kill yourself.".
Anyway in FFX Sin has already lost it's purpose long ago and need to be destroyed.
Nice try.

[AkiKishi]

Kakita Tatsumaru wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...
The donimant personality would be similiar to Jecht and the "star god" would be Yevan.

The purpose of Sin in FFX is to prevent any settlement becoming big enough to challenge Bevelle and thus trigger another war like the one Yevan went through 1000 years ago. It's a similiar theory to the Reapers, we kill you so you don't kill yoursevles on a larger scale.

The conclusion of the game is way more satisfying even if it is still sad.

Minus Sin is a weapon used against ennemies (or potential ennemies), not against your own kind that you are trying to protect. It's "We kill you so you don't kill us." not "We kill you so you don't kill yourself.".
Anyway in FFX Sin has already lost it's purpose long ago and need to be destroyed.
Nice try.

I think you misunderstood something along the way. Bevelle is the old enemy of Zanarkand. They placate Yevan by sending him sacrifices in the form of the summoners and guardians.They also turned him into a god.
If Yevans goal was to wipe out Bevelle he could have done so. The purpose is to keep anyone else from being able to challenge the status quo, by attacking settlements that too large.

You know like how the Reapers leave the young races alive because they are not a threat. Since both Sin and the Reapers are driven by a somewhat twisted premise, it's debatable whether they ever had a purpose. This is the problem with preventative action. A more real world example would be killing everyone with a certain gene because they could potentially become a serial killer.

Just because it's possible that someone might create a synthetic race that will wipe out everything does not make it a certainty.

[Tirigon]

AwesomeName wrote...

  I'm just trying to explain why it's obvious that the goop isn't just goop.

But the way I understood it is just that. It is a ressource. They are building Reapers out of that stuff like we build houses or tools from Wood - and they preserve our identity just as wepreserve the identity of the trees, that is not at all.

[Kakita Tatsumaru]

BobSmith101 wrote...
I think you misunderstood something along the way. Bevelle is the old enemy of Zanarkand. They placate Yevan by sending him sacrifices in the form of the summoners and guardians.They also turned him into a god.
If Yevans goal was to wipe out Bevelle he could have done so. The purpose is to keep anyone else from being able to challenge the status quo, by attacking settlements that too large.
You know like how the Reapers leave the young races alive because they are not a threat. Since both Sin and the Reapers are driven by a somewhat twisted premise, it's debatable whether they ever had a purpose. This is the problem with preventative action. A more real world example would be killing everyone with a certain gene because they could potentially become a serial killer.
Just because it's possible that someone might create a synthetic race that will wipe out everything does not make it a certainty.

Well, You missed it, I'll do it chronologically so you'll understand better.
-War between Bevelle and Zanarkand.
-Yu Yevon create dream Zanarkand.
-Yu Yevon create Sin to protect  dream Zanarkand and destroy it's potential ennemies. (not touching dream zanarkand he is trying to protect)
-Yu Yevon lose his mind because Sin + dream Zanarkand = too powerful for him, and Sin become a random town destroyer. (no purpose anymore)
-Yunalesca destroy Sin, then create Yevon religion, promising an eternal calm one day if everybody follow her teaching.
-Summoners and gardian destroy Sin for Aeon, each time Yu Yevon remains of his spirit re-create it.
-Jecht in the form of Sin attack dream Zabarkand to take his son into the real world.
-Yuna and co destroys Yu Yevon remains, and by destroying his summoner destroy Sin and dream Zanarkand.

Modifié par Kakita Tatsumaru, 17 mars 2012 - 02:02 .

[dreman9999]

I'm posting this because I see allot people don't seem
to understand the reaper point of their ideal. That the idea of destroying us
so we can’t hurt ourselves and make AI that kill us off makes no sense.



But It does make sense.... Yes, that statement isn't clear
but I can explain it...The idea is truly alien to one of us and when you get
it...It will horrify you and you'll want to stop the reapers even more.



It based on the concepts of being alive and
living. To use being alive means have an ego. This is build by having a
perspective, a form of comprehension, memories and an active ability to learn
and develop oneself. When that is gone, to us the person is dead. Take for
example, brain death. The persons body is still alive but the person is gone
for ever, meaning that person is dead to us..



Now the first thing to understand about the
reapers is that they think like machines. For a machine, if apart is damage,
they simply replace the damage parts. To a machine, a brain dead person is
still alive; they just need to replace the brain with something similar. What ever
the person was before is irrelevant to them.



Add to this reapers feel organics are flawed. They
feel that they are chaotic and unable to see there own self destruction that
their so called beliefs cause. To a reaper, individuality on the level we have
is a flaw. Added, they don't want to kill us. They want to stop us from destroying
ourselves. So the reapers “fix" the one flaw they think we have, our individuality...The
thing that gives us a soul. Our cells and parts of our body still live but our individuality
is dead and gone. Our race never dies off because our genetic detail is still
living, but everything that made our race the way it is, our individuality, our
culture, and our beliefs are gone.



The whole idea is to protect organics form destroying
themselves and keep order. This includes stopping from being destroyed by their
own self made AI. They also see what they are doing to us like a person sees
when they are gardening. They are taking us out so other beings can grow and
develop as well, and they are doing it in a way that organics stay alive but
the individuality of the organics are dead.



And that what's so horrifying about the ideal is
there's some truth to it but I would never want to be taken to that extreme to
be preserved.

[The Razman]

Sdrol117 wrote...

Han Shot First wrote...

The 'we protect you by killing you' bit just did not make any sense.

Really, it didnt. They want to harvest us, yet all they do is destroy our planets and BLOW PEOPLE UP. DIRECTLY SHOOTING AT THEM. It doesn't logically make sense at all. They should have been grabbing shuttles out of the air and sucking the people out to process them, not blowing them up.

Weren't you there in Mass Effect 2, when the Collectors were doing pretty much exactly that?

[Rogue Unit]

Why don't the Reapers just wipe out all synthetic life when they come through the Citadel relay every 50k years?

[dreman9999]

Rogue Unit wrote...

Why don't the Reapers just wipe out all synthetic life when they come through the Citadel relay every 50k years?

BECAUSE THEY WANT TO PRESEVE LIFE...THIS INCLUDES ORGANIC AND SYTHETIC LIFE. tHEY DON'T WANT TO DO GENOSIDE.

[AkiKishi]

Kakita Tatsumaru wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...
I think you misunderstood something along the way. Bevelle is the old enemy of Zanarkand. They placate Yevan by sending him sacrifices in the form of the summoners and guardians.They also turned him into a god.
If Yevans goal was to wipe out Bevelle he could have done so. The purpose is to keep anyone else from being able to challenge the status quo, by attacking settlements that too large.
You know like how the Reapers leave the young races alive because they are not a threat. Since both Sin and the Reapers are driven by a somewhat twisted premise, it's debatable whether they ever had a purpose. This is the problem with preventative action. A more real world example would be killing everyone with a certain gene because they could potentially become a serial killer.
Just because it's possible that someone might create a synthetic race that will wipe out everything does not make it a certainty.

Well, You missed it, I'll do it chronologically so you'll understand better.
-War between Bevelle and Zanarkand.
-Yu Yevon create dream Zanarkand.
-Yu Yevon create Sin to protect  dream Zanarkand and destroy it's potential ennemies. (not touching dream zanarkand he is trying to protect)
-Yu Yevon lose his mind because Sin + dream Zanarkand = too powerful for him, and Sin become a random town destroyer. (no purpose anymore)
-Yunalesca destroy Sin, then create Yevon religion, promising an eternal calm one day if everybody follow her teaching.
-Summoners and gardian destroy Sin for Aeon, each time Yu Yevon remains of his spirit re-create it.
-Jecht in the form of Sin attack dream Zabarkand to take his son into the real world.
-Yuna and co destroys Yu Yevon remains, and by destroying his summoner destroy Sin and dream Zanarkand.

That was the purose.It was the will behind Sin even without having a "mind". Sin never hit small settlements. This changed with Jecht/Tidus when the Jecht personality came out more and started to "stalk" Tidus.

[Han Shot First]

Koju737 wrote...

I don't really see how the god card is being pulled here... I mean its never specifically stated that its a god or a deity of some sort. I'm just gonna go with the idea that star child is a highly evolved AI construct that is essentially the citadel ala what EDI is to the normandy. Because its not really explained at all either way, what the hell that thing exactly is, and there is no way I'm accepting that its a "god" or supernatural deity, unless specifically stated otherwise by a dev( which in that case I might as well snap the game disc in half.)

There are some fairly strong hints that the star child is a supernatural being. The biggest is that the in the green ending, all organic life is magically transformed into cyborgs for all time. The very nature of 'life' changes, and that can't be accomplished by any natural means. But there are other hints as well. Shepard was slipping into unconciousness and was not responding to Hackett, but as soon as the Starchild addresses Shepard he revives and is able to get back onto his feet. The Star Child also talks like some kind of oracle, making predictions as if it has direct knowledge of the future rather than just a guess based on experience. Perhaps 'god' is not the right word to use, but he's at least something similar to the Q character from Star Trek: The Next Generation.

My canon ending is the Red ending, and in that I just head canon it that the Star Child is an A.I. But unfortunately I don't think that was the route Bioware was going with him.

[Euphori Sixx]

[tetrisblock4x1]

Dude it's just a ****ing ending whats the big deal? Why do people even care where Bioware was going with it? It's just the final 10 minutes of a great 100 hour story and the best and maybe only good thing about the ending is that it is completly and utterly conclusive. No matter what Biowares take on the whole ending is you can be fairly sure that it really is an ending and not a cliff hanger, or some contrived bull**** designed to drag the series out. And that kind of ending is a blessing in this day and age of milked franchises, so just imagine your own ideal ending and go ****ing crazy because every single plot point has converged at that one point of ME3 and each story is 100% concluded.

[dreman9999]

Euphori Sixx wrote...

Everytime I see this comment ..I face palm... No wonder the reaper tnink there reason is beyond our understanding.

Modifié par dreman9999, 17 mars 2012 - 05:22 .

[Navasha]

Han Shot First wrote...

The 'we protect you by killing you' bit just did not make any sense.

You are interpreting it wrong.   Its 'We protect ORGANIC LIFE by killing the advanced species who are on the verge of being wiped out by their own synthetic creations."

They aren't trying to save humans, asari, salarians...etc.    They are trying to save the rest of the life in the galaxy that isn't as advanced and is threatened by the creation of synthetic life forms created by advanced species.  

In the reapers minds... the people they are killing are already dead in a few years anyway when their AI progeny rise up and kill them all.   Those AI could then go on to wipe out all lifeforms in the galaxy.    They know... thats what happened to them originally.    Thats what they 'regret' and don't want to see it happen again.  

To put into perspective...    Imagine a 90 year old man is on the verge of death, but with the push of a button could launch a nuclear war ending all life on Earth.    You have the ability to stop him by shooting him.   Would you?   That is essentially how the reapers view the events in the galaxy.    A race rises to the pinnacle of achievement by creating AIs.   The AIs always eventually rebel, killing their creators and moves on to wiping out all life in order to purge potential threats to their existence.    The reapers try to step in before this happens, killing off the advanced cultures and their AI creations to protect the rest of the organic life in the galaxy.