139 réponses à ce sujet

[dreman9999]

Navasha wrote...

Han Shot First wrote...

The 'we protect you by killing you' bit just did not make any sense.

You are interpreting it wrong.   Its 'We protect ORGANIC LIFE by killing the advanced species who are on the verge of being wiped out by their own synthetic creations."

They aren't trying to save humans, asari, salarians...etc.    They are trying to save the rest of the life in the galaxy that isn't as advanced and is threatened by the creation of synthetic life forms created by advanced species.  

In the reapers minds... the people they are killing are already dead in a few years anyway when their AI progeny rise up and kill them all.   Those AI could then go on to wipe out all lifeforms in the galaxy.    They know... thats what happened to them originally.    Thats what they 'regret' and don't want to see it happen again.  

To put into perspective...    Imagine a 90 year old man is on the verge of death, but with the push of a button could launch a nuclear war ending all life on Earth.    You have the ability to stop him by shooting him.   Would you?   That is essentially how the reapers view the events in the galaxy.    A race rises to the pinnacle of achievement by creating AIs.   The AIs always eventually rebel, killing their creators and moves on to wiping out all life in order to purge potential threats to their existence.    The reapers try to step in before this happens, killing off the advanced cultures and their AI creations to protect the rest of the organic life in the galaxy. 

No , your half right. 
It a concept of alive vs libing. They think like machine we think like organics. Example, brian death.
To us the person is dead even if the body is still alive. We hold the memories, perspective, ideals, beliefs, development, ability to learn and grow, and consusness of a persons mind as an indication of being alive.

To a machine it's not. A brain dead person to a machine is still alive, you just need to replace the damaged brain with something else that is equal, like replace a damage hard drive on a computer. The reapers see indivisuality as irrelivent. They persurve our race, aka keep them alive forever as reapers, but kill off indivisuality of each person of that race.

Modifié par dreman9999, 17 mars 2012 - 05:30 .

[Purge the heathens]

It...

It all falls kinda flat.

The quarians are to blame for the geth rebellion. "We are perfectly peaceful and benevolent and only want to know whether we have souls." "OMG! Kill it! KILL IT!" Or dismantle, you know, what with geth not being seen as living beings. There are the heretics, but that was a change in geth society catalyzed by a Reaper. Using them as an argument would be like gouging out someone's eye with a burning cigarette to prove that smoking is harmful.

There's Javik's account of the zha'til, but I believe that was before his time. Considering that the protheans weren't the nicest of people, I think it's more likely they were creeped out by the zha'til practice of upgrading oneself through implants (meddling with the natural order etc.) and attacked. The rest is history, history is written by the victors, yadda-yadda, propaganda. Before Legion was introduced, we also thought all geth were evil and followed the Reapers.

There was that one AI from ME1 that wanted to join the geth. It was only hostile to organics because it thought it would be killed the moment its existence became known.

It's more like "Organics will rise up against synthetics because they're afraid synthetics will rise up against them."

If you ****** us, do we not bleed orange DNA goo?

@Armass81

Armass81 wrote...

[...]

Your extinction is inevitable(with singularity, where machines take over and consume everything), we are the end of everything (they store old life forever in reaper form).

We have no beginning, we have no end, we are infinite.(technically true, remember its the former species called Nazara that is turned into the core speaking here. In their current form they are far above any organic life and effectively immortal.)

[...]

There are other interpretations. The part about the Reapers having neither beginning nor end was one of my favorite lines throughout the entire trilogy. For me, it means that eventually, every species will willingly upgrade itself to a Reaper-like state. The Reapers do nothing more than speed along the process. If they're saving species, it's by preventing them from choosing a wrong path. The krogan, if left to themselves, would have caused their own extinction, without any AIs being involved, even. But, by turning them into a destroyer, they are saved, it's their salvation.

"No beginning, no end" is not so much about the Reapers as a species, but the concept of "Reaperdom." At some point, the cycles will start again. Sadly, no one ever picks up on this point of view.

"We are the end of everything" = Being a Reaper is life's ultimate purpose.

...

They are militant transspeciesists; everything they do is for science!

Sovereign was insulted by geth worship because the Reapers either believe in a real god out there or are trying to build an artificial one.

Bla.

No, no, no. For me, the crux of the Reaper conflict has always been not about robots vs meat, but free will and being able to make your own choices (and mistakes, too) vs being forced to walk someone else's path and conform to their ideal of perfection.

...

There was a coherent thought behind this post when I started writing, but then I branched out.

[Sdrol117]

The people arguing against the logic presented to us throughout the three games simply do not seem to understand what Bioware has told us, or have simply not played the games enough to grasp the entire concept. At 10 playthroughs of ME1, 5 of ME2, 2 of ME3, and constantly reading Codexes and Wikis, and RPing in this world for 8 months, I have been completely immersed. SOme of you simply don't understand the lore, or "truths" Bioware has told us in their storyline. And that's okay, but don't argue that they are right when they retcon something that previously contradicts whatever they felt like doing at the time.

[AdeptusAstartes]

dreman9999 wrote...

Euphori Sixx wrote...

Everytime I see this comment ..I face palm... No wonder the reaper tnink there reason is beyond our understanding.

It doesn't matter one lick if their reasoning is beyond our understanding or not. It's the fact that you don't even get the chance to challenge it. By buying into the Catalyst's truth; you as Shepard are saying that free will means nothing and it doesn't even matter if synthetics will eventually wipe out organics. You're not even given the chance to try and make it not so. 

What the Catalyst says is Truth ™, and you are not permitted to challenge it. If that doesn't smack of the hand of the Divine, then I don't know what does.

[yoseph101]

Why can't the reapers be mysterious lovecraftian horrors whose motivations we can only speculate about? No body asks what cthulu's motivations are and why he is evil. Nobody asks what the Joker's motivations are in the Dark Knight. They just do.

[AdeptusAstartes]

yoseph101 wrote...

Why can't the reapers be mysterious lovecraftian horrors whose motivations we can only speculate about? No body asks what cthulu's motivations are and why he is evil. Nobody asks what the Joker's motivations are in the Dark Knight. They just do.

[ozenglish]

yoseph101 wrote...

Why can't the reapers be mysterious lovecraftian horrors whose motivations we can only speculate about? No body asks what cthulu's motivations are and why he is evil. Nobody asks what the Joker's motivations are in the Dark Knight. They just do.

Would you even question Cthulhu's motives even if you had the chance? I haven't played the third game, but I do remember quite specifically just having replayed ME1 where you talk to Vigil, that if you stay and chat further, it will tell you about how reapers stay in dark space, and that their scientists figured out that the citadel was a gate into dark space.

Secondly, to me the reapers remind me of the Monoliths from 2001 A Space Odyssey with the temperament of HAL9000. They have the capacity to guide the intelligences of semi-sentient speices, turn a planet into a sun, and then blacken out the sky with their numbers. 

From reading sci-fi as a kid, especially Clarke, Asimov and others, then having a great love for reading Lovecraft, you can see that ME3 is a giant homage to these genres

My take on the reapers is that of an organic species, who devised that putting their collective consciousness' into a giant machine, how we put our thoughts into a computer via text and then it collates all the infomration in their now giant warehouses of information, and find that organic life is a parasite that is vital to the ecosystem's development, but must be controlled. So instead of allowing sentient life to introduce it's own pest control via AI or synthetic life, the reapers like a gardener removing aphids from a rose, comes along and cleans out the gardens leaving the worms to mull the dirt over until it learns how to cultivate an orchard by itslef.

[Kakita Tatsumaru]

BobSmith101 wrote...

Kakita Tatsumaru wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...
I think you misunderstood something along the way. Bevelle is the old enemy of Zanarkand. They placate Yevan by sending him sacrifices in the form of the summoners and guardians.They also turned him into a god.
If Yevans goal was to wipe out Bevelle he could have done so. The purpose is to keep anyone else from being able to challenge the status quo, by attacking settlements that too large.
You know like how the Reapers leave the young races alive because they are not a threat. Since both Sin and the Reapers are driven by a somewhat twisted premise, it's debatable whether they ever had a purpose. This is the problem with preventative action. A more real world example would be killing everyone with a certain gene because they could potentially become a serial killer.
Just because it's possible that someone might create a synthetic race that will wipe out everything does not make it a certainty.

Well, You missed it, I'll do it chronologically so you'll understand better.
-War between Bevelle and Zanarkand.
-Yu Yevon create dream Zanarkand.
-Yu Yevon create Sin to protect  dream Zanarkand and destroy it's potential ennemies. (not touching dream zanarkand he is trying to protect)
-Yu Yevon lose his mind because Sin + dream Zanarkand = too powerful for him, and Sin become a random town destroyer. (no purpose anymore)
-Yunalesca destroy Sin, then create Yevon religion, promising an eternal calm one day if everybody follow her teaching.
-Summoners and gardian destroy Sin for Aeon, each time Yu Yevon remains of his spirit re-create it.
-Jecht in the form of Sin attack dream Zabarkand to take his son into the real world.
-Yuna and co destroys Yu Yevon remains, and by destroying his summoner destroy Sin and dream Zanarkand.

That was the purose.It was the will behind Sin even without having a "mind". Sin never hit small settlements. This changed with Jecht/Tidus when the Jecht personality came out more and started to "stalk" Tidus.

After Yu Yevon losed his mind, Sin attacked even small settlements, that's where your error lies.
Anyway, to be compared to the reapers purpose Sin would have to attack Dream Zanarkand (And the only time it did was because of Jecht) , as it is what it's supposed to protect.

[The Executioner]

They should have had a galactic war among the different races the Reaper plot got away from them. It really is a poorly written end to the trilogy.

[The Executioner]

XxTaLoNxX wrote...

Han Shot First wrote...

Uchimura wrote...

Actually it makes sense perfectly in the context of what you've already experienced in the ME universe. Take Krogan for example. They reached a point where they could kill a whole race if they wanted to. Then the genophage happened, basically achieveing the same thing.

It's a concept that's been used in quite a few stories.

The argument was that by wiping out galactic civilization every 50,000 years it prevents the creation of pure synthetics that would then wipe out said civilizations. We 'protect life by killing it' does not make sense, as the Reapers could just as easily swoop in and annihilate the synthetics. if protection of oragnic life is really their goal, why annihilate it?

The star child's argument was also on shaky ground because Shepard had just spent the entire game molding EDI into a being that was willing to sacrifice its own life to save organics, and in getting the Geth to ally with the Quarians. Shepard has disproved the theory that cooperation between synthetics and organics was impossible, but isn't given the option of calling the Star Child on it.

And even worse, the Star Child is apparently supposed to be some kind of deity. It just seemed so completely out of place in Mass Effect.

Honestly it's just horrible writing. And anyone who wasn't like, "WTF?!?" at their logic either is a brain-damaged ape on auto-pilot or is lacking somewhere in their "logistical analysis" to a point where it makes perfect sense to them if they see a dog driving a NASCAR.

 I agree the resolution of ME3 is laughable.

[kaisterbahn]

I don't know if this has been said, and I'm not reading 6 pages of this.

But, the ending only makes sense in the originally proposed Drew Karpyshyn 'Black Matter' ending. The new writer didn't think things through and threw some senseless **** together, and it fell flat on it's ass. Drew's ending wasn't much better in all honesty, but it made sense, whereas the way the story was taken didn't due to a failure in continuity,

[xsdob]

kaisterbahn wrote...

I don't know if this has been said, and I'm not reading 6 pages of this.

But, the ending only makes sense in the originally proposed Drew Karpyshyn 'Black Matter' ending. The new writer didn't think things through and threw some senseless **** together, and it fell flat on it's ass. Drew's ending wasn't much better in all honesty, but it made sense, whereas the way the story was taken didn't due to a failure in continuity,

One planet and conversation with tali doesn't count as forshadowing, the protheans snthetics story and the morning war are better foreshadowing devices than that. Also, having two choices given to you by the harbinger controlled corpse of the illusive man is not satisfying either.

[Tirigon]

Euphori Sixx wrote...

Glad I am not the only one who thought that.