22 réponses à ce sujet

[FezzikVizzini]

Howdy folks,

I'm new to NWN2 and though the technical aspects of creating something with the toolset (which I have no experience with) are somewhat daunting, I have the itch to tell a story. Even though my free time to responsibility ratio is heavily stacked to one side (guess which way), I can't quite convince myself this is a foolish dream. In surfing these forums, I've seen many tips available regarding the mechanics of making things happen. I'd like to know if any of the experienced modders out there have tips for using the game engine to tell a story that allows the player to feel integral to the outcome. On a tabletop, I can react on the fly to the different voices adding texture to the tale, but here .... it has to be crafted as a complete entity and set free to be enjoyed (one would hope) by whoever chose to play it. It seems a difficult task to share the experience when I'm allowed no reaction, only anticipation of the variables. While watching the tale unfold and choosing the mode to overcome obstacles/enemies/puzzles can be fun, the spirit of D & D is in the SHARED yarn, fondly remembered for it's blended flavor.

Thanks for your thoughts on this,

Fez

Edited for a spelling error in the title and to remove "image removed" where my winking smiley face was.

Modifié par FezzikVizzini, 17 mars 2012 - 07:15 .

[painofdungeoneternal]

Well it's more complex than that.

1. You can create areas and populate them with monsters and scripting to "program" a complete story. The interactivity is programmed.

2. You can also create areas, put it up as a PW and let the other players create the story, you just keep the setting going. The interactivity is due to other players.

3. You can create areas, or modules on the vault, and invite other players to join your game using the dm client. Dm client allows you to possess, control, create and other things you are familiar with. ( Those modules which are DMFI friendly are made for this. ) The interactivity is created on the fly by the host, along with other players who are participating.

4. You can merge any of these, and make a complete module which is fully scripted, but also make it DM friendly and a open sandbox type of setup which can be used on PWs and in SP. Really is relative to how much effort you put into things.

Note there are prefab areas on the vault, and complete PW's, and you can even just repackage ares from the official modules, or just use existing modules. Also setting up areas is somewhat easier in NWN1 which is very similar, you might want to try that if you find NWN2 too difficult.

Modifié par painofdungeoneternal, 17 mars 2012 - 07:33 .

[Lugaid of the Red Stripes]

To second what pain said above, if you want to interact with your players, then you need to check out the DM client, and how PW's work.

For single-player modules, though, you have to think about it a bit differently. One way to think about is as an exploration, like those old 'Where's Waldo?' books- the player makes their own journey across the landscape you've created; that you've simply provided them with a bunch of possibilities that they enact themselves. Another way to think of it is as a sandbox- you create a set of tools, mechanisms, that the players use themselves to create a story; given a shovel, they're gonna make a castle, and the castle will crumble, but how and why are up to the players to figure out.

[M. Rieder]

Add multiple choices during dialogue. Provide multiple solutions to puzzles that favor different classes/alignments. Provide alternative endings or paths (only 1 is reasonably feasible due to time constraints, in my opinion). Keep things simple so you have more time to focus on the story.

I recommend you play some module from the hall of fame/top 15 modules list to see what the most popular modders are doing. This is what I did and it helped me when I was starting out.

Companions are key for a good story. As far as action goes, I prefer playing alone, but mods that give interesting companions are very fun. I think that Tsongo's characters in serene exemplify this.

[nicethugbert]

There is a conflict between telling a story and giving the players choices. There are no choices in books and movies other than to continue or stop.

[Artemis Absinthe]

FezzikVizzini wrote...

I'm new to NWN2 and though the technical aspects of creating something with the toolset (which I have no experience with) are somewhat daunting, I have the itch to tell a story.

My advice : start with something small.
Learn how to achieve what you want in scripting and modding forums, build your skills by opening modules others did and play, play a lot. You need to know what you can do before thinking about what you want to do.

Knowledge is power. When you know how to do something, you'll only need time to do it. If you don't know how to do it, you can still learn.

Modifié par Artemis Absinthe, 17 mars 2012 - 04:41 .

[M. Rieder]

Second that! Start small. My first mod was quite small (only 4 hours) and still took me 6 months.

[FezzikVizzini]

Thanks to you all for your answers ... St. Patrick's day festivities have made an eloquent response unlikely ... hopefully one day I'll join you in offering the folks who love this game a new adventure to enjoy.

Fez

[rjshae]

Definitely, starting small is a good approach. I'd just tell a part of your story in your first release; perhaps enough for an evening's play. Even that can take you several months to complete. It also helps if you write your story so that it fits into the toolset concept, not the other way around. Trying to modify the workings of the engine can become quite the bunny trail. Fortunately there are plenty of expansions available on the Vault if you want to diversify things.

[Morbane]

Dialog - good dialog
Plot - sense of choice
Detail - where it supports the previous 2 tips ~ area design
Beginning - middle - end ~ build up to the plot - maintain the tension (or whatever) - a climactic end

<_< I re-read that and it actually sounds like what good sex would be like - so maybe think of it that way - like something that all mammals and humans are designed to do - and like it.

Modifié par Morbane, 20 mars 2012 - 08:03 .

[Dann-J]

nicethugbert wrote...

There is a conflict between telling a story and giving the players choices. There are no choices in books and movies other than to continue or stop.

That only applies to telling *a* story. If you write several possible stories into a module then the player can choose which of those story paths to follow. This was used in MotB.

Or you can provide the bare bones of a story (otherwise known as a 'plot') and allow the player to fill in the details based on their choices (as with the OC). The start and end points may be the same, but the journey is just as important as the destination.

RPG games should never be compared to books or movies anyway (except perhaps for the 'Choose Your Own Adventure' series of books). If you want to force a very specific story on the player and tightly control everything they experience, then the whole module may as well be one long cutscene.

[Lugaid of the Red Stripes]

Books don't read themselves. They require active readers, and the whole experience of a book, the impact of it, comes from how the reader interacts with it, how they interpret things, what understanding they bring to it, as much as it comes from the author's original intention.

Games give their players an interesting experience, and the builders of games build into them the potentiality of those experiences. Most of the time it's just the kinetic thrill of causing bits of light to jump around the screen, or the satisfaction of figuring out a complicated situation, but sometimes it comes from the emotional attachment you have to the characters and setting of a game. To create that attachment, the game creator needs to write believable, reasonable dialogue and plot, where all the characters involved do things that are not only reasonable within that particular time and place, but also further the player's understanding and attachment to the characters and setting. Sometimes letting the player make a choice gets them invested in the plot, but letting the player character make (or contemplate making) too many choices just ruins the coherence of the plot, and spoils the nuances of character.

In simple terms, if you make a story with a bunch of branches from player choices, not only have you done a lot of work that the player isn't going to see and enjoy, you've also ensured that most of their potential play-throughs will involve plots and characters that don't make perfect sense, and are far less interesting than the most interesting plot possible with those particular characters in that particular setting.

Besides, the most interesting, and fun, characters to role-play are complicated, conflicted, or ambiguous, and in practical terms, the choices in RPGs are limited to three or four options at the most, each of which is usually fairly straightforward and predictable.

In short, I, as a player, don't need a sense of choice as much as I need a sense of meaningful place in, and interaction with, the game world. And a well-written, mostly linear, plot can do that better than gratuitous conversation options.

[Dann-J]

Lugaid of the Red Stripes wrote...

Sometimes letting the player make a choice gets them invested in the plot, but letting the player character make (or contemplate making) too many choices just ruins the coherence of the plot, and spoils the nuances of character.

If that happens, it's a failing of the module author. RPGs require at least some choice (to qualify the 'RP'), and the more choices the better in my book. I generally judge a game by how replayable it is. A tightly linear plot makes replaying pointless, whereas multiple branching storylines allow the player to explore different aspects of a module in subsequent replayings by making different choices.

The challenge for the author is coming up with a plot that is flexible enough to allow for a lot of variation, but not so flexible that it frequently loses coherance. Or to develop several parallel storylines, and at least offer the player a chance to jump on one bandwagon or the other at some point. Otherwise you may as well be watching someone else play the game for you.

[nicethugbert]

DannJ wrote...

nicethugbert wrote...

There is a conflict between telling a story and giving the players choices. There are no choices in books and movies other than to continue or stop.

That only applies to telling *a* story. If you write several possible stories into a module then the player can choose which of those story paths to follow. This was used in MotB.

Or you can provide the bare bones of a story (otherwise known as a 'plot') and allow the player to fill in the details based on their choices (as with the OC). The start and end points may be the same, but the journey is just as important as the destination.

RPG games should never be compared to books or movies anyway (except perhaps for the 'Choose Your Own Adventure' series of books). If you want to force a very specific story on the player and tightly control everything they experience, then the whole module may as well be one long cutscene.

No matter how many stories or choices you put in a module you always get people diappointed that they did not get the story or choice they wanted.  You get many people who's prefered choices run entirely counter to the story.  Plus, mod builders have limited time.  Those are the conflicts I had in mind.

Incidentally, I like cut scenes.  I like very good cut scenes a lot.  Dialog on the other hand, needs to be managed.  For instance, ME2's final act, ACt 3: Suicide Mission, has got to be the best gaming segment I have ever played.  You are stranded on the enemy base where you have to hurry up and destroy the base, naturally, but, your ship crash landed so it needs to be repaired in time to escape.

In that case, the cut scenes were great.  They worked with the story to move it along.  Some of the dialog was mechnically necessary because you need to assign tasks to your squad members( fire team leader, hacker, etc.)  but, if by the end of the game when it's go time and the action and cut scenes fit perfectly together, you still need to make dialog choices to express yourself, then something is wrong.  WTF was your character doing through out the rest of the game?  Maybe I'm seeing it this way because my character had maxed out his paragon rating and I played the game with that goal in mind.  (ME series has a simply bipolar morality system.)

But, at that point, cutscene and action ans story fit so perfectly together and I had played my character so consistently that my dialog choices seemed like the only choices so I did not appreciated the interuption in the flow of the game to have to make them.

I think, that in a module there needs to be a time to stop the dialog and let events unfold as they have been built up.

Modifié par nicethugbert, 21 mars 2012 - 10:02 .

[Artemis Absinthe]

nicethugbert wrote...

DannJ wrote...

nicethugbert wrote...

There is a conflict between telling a story and giving the players choices. There are no choices in books and movies other than to continue or stop.

That only applies to telling *a* story. If you write several possible stories into a module then the player can choose which of those story paths to follow. This was used in MotB.

Or you can provide the bare bones of a story (otherwise known as a 'plot') and allow the player to fill in the details based on their choices (as with the OC). The start and end points may be the same, but the journey is just as important as the destination.

RPG games should never be compared to books or movies anyway (except perhaps for the 'Choose Your Own Adventure' series of books). If you want to force a very specific story on the player and tightly control everything they experience, then the whole module may as well be one long cutscene.

No matter how many stories or choices you put in a module you always get people diappointed that they did not get the story or choice they wanted.  You get many people who's prefered choices run entirely counter to the story.  Plus, mod builders have limited time.  Those are the conflicts I had in mind.

Incidentally, I like cut scenes.  I like very good cut scenes a lot.  Dialog on the other hand, needs to be managed.  For instance, ME2's final act, ACt 3: Suicide Mission, has got to be the best gaming segment I have ever played.  You are stranded on the enemy base where you have to hurry up and destroy the base, naturally, but, your ship crash landed so it needs to be repaired in time to escape.

In that case, the cut scenes were great.  They worked with the story to move it along.  Some of the dialog was mechnically necessary because you need to assign tasks to your squad members( fire team leader, hacker, etc.)  but, if by the end of the game when it's go time and the action and cut scenes fit perfectly together, you still need to make dialog choices to express yourself, then something is wrong.  WTF was your character doing through out the rest of the game?  Maybe I'm seeing it this way because my character had maxed out his paragon rating and I played the game with that goal in mind.  (ME series has a simply bipolar morality system.)

But, at that point, cutscene and action ans story fit so perfectly together and I had played my character so consistently that my dialog choices seemed like the only choices so I did not appreciated the interuption in the flow of the game to have to make them.

I think, that in a module there needs to be a time to stop the dialog and let events unfold as they have been built up.

this is an opinion, not the rule. 

Of course, no matter how well you did, you'll find someone disappointed "because the module doesn't support Kaedrin pack", or "you cant kill them all in the end", but you can't please everyone, you have to work in order to please the majority. This principle is for the books as well.

But it's not true that giving the choice of another branch of the story means you're not telling a story at all. In all the Jedy Knight games, for instance, you can chose between dark side or bright side, and your choice alter the plot, but they're still great stories.

You say there are a differences between books, movies and games... of course there are, it's a different concept. Books and movies are not interactive, games are. In a movie or a book you're just the audience, in a game you are the main character.

But, still, there is a story.

Even if you can alter the plot, you can't, for instance, prevent an earthquake or stop an army of thousands or prevent the famine. There are choices you make that can actually change part of the story,  others that will not. 
Of course is different, but there is a story, otherwise is just a sandbox, infinite choices, but no story at all.

That's why they're called "story-driven" adventures.

But I agree, books and games are different.

Modifié par Artemis Absinthe, 21 mars 2012 - 02:41 .

[painofdungeoneternal]

The thing to remember in all this, when we discuss what WE want when we play, that what the author wants and prefers is far more important. Since they are are doing this for fun as well, well we need to let them follow their own muse whether that is linear or sandbox, lame or glorious. The minute they stop having fun, well we lose too many good creators in the community due to that.

As an author you should always ask yourself does doing X make you excited, or are you doing it because someone demands it and it feels like a chore/job.

I'd much rather have more modules even if they aren't exactly my cup of tea, or even if they don't allow every option i can conceive of as a player which is impossible. We should judge modules based as much on what the author is trying to do and how well they do it, and support the wide variety of playstyles that exist and the fact an author might just stumble upon an entirely new playstyle.

[Claudius33]

I totally agree with Pain.

Don't forget that very few people will replay a game more than a couple of times, even a succesful commercial game.

Believe me to translate into a non native language is something not only hard, but something you can call chore, so imagine if other aspects were also meaning chore for me ...

I try to put some flexibility and diversity in my mods but there are limitations. Limitations of the engine of course, limitations to keep the story consistent, and a much more bigger limitation : TIME.

Modders know what is the workload required for just a one hour mod. Keep in mind that modders have to cope with their family and professional life ...

If I have fun playing my own mods, players may have fun too. If not  ...

Modifié par Claudius33, 22 mars 2012 - 07:50 .

[Dann-J]

Claudius33 wrote...

I totally agree with Pain.

Indeed. The only person a module author should be pleasing is themself. Okay - that came out a bit wrong. As did that.

Claudius33 wrote...

Don't forget that very few people will replay a game more than a couple of times, even a succesful commercial game.

That very much depends on the game. I've played many games with strictly linear plots that I've enjoyed immensely, but which there was little point replaying them.

I've also played games with multiple endings and a huge number of ways in which you can develop the PC's skills or relationships with NPCs. Some of those games I've played many times, exploring the different choices to experience things from different perspectives. Any game that encourages replayability gives you much more value for money.

Then again, any game that ships with a toolset, and has an expansive fanbase of potential module authors, is just plain awesome.

[rjshae]

nicethugbert wrote...

DannJ wrote...

nicethugbert wrote...

But, at that point, cutscene and action ans story fit so perfectly together and I had played my character so consistently that my dialog choices seemed like the only choices so I did not appreciated the interuption in the flow of the game to have to make them.

I think, that in a module there needs to be a time to stop the dialog and let events unfold as they have been built up.

One of the commonly mentioned guidelines to good writing is to show, not tell. That could apply to game conversations as well. It may better to show a plot element in game than to have it explained in a lengthy dialogue. That being said though, I do like dialogue for developing character personality and for presenting big decision branches.

Modifié par rjshae, 21 mars 2012 - 11:43 .

[nicethugbert]

rjshae wrote...

nicethugbert wrote...

DannJ wrote...

nicethugbert wrote...

But, at that point, cutscene and action ans story fit so perfectly together and I had played my character so consistently that my dialog choices seemed like the only choices so I did not appreciated the interuption in the flow of the game to have to make them.

I think, that in a module there needs to be a time to stop the dialog and let events unfold as they have been built up.

One of the commonly mentioned guidelines to good writing is to show, not tell. That could apply to game conversations as well. It may better to show a plot element in game than to have it explained in a lengthy dialogue. That being said though, I do like dialogue for developing character personality and for presenting big decision branches.

Very good point.  Then I would say that a common failing of computer games is that there is not enough showing.  The problem is not that there is too much dialog.  The problem is the lack of show.  It interfears with the pacing, especially if the module claims urgency.  So, I would say that the campaign's/module's acts/chapters/whateverothersegmentaion should be front loaded with dialog and back loaded with showing/demonstration.  The dialog would be the tool for setting up the climax.  And the climax segment should be presented at length and differently from the build up/set up.

So, I would use the SOZ party dialog for running around town, or wherever, setting up events.  Then I'd use cinematics, with little to no dialog, to play out the events.  Combat and such would be interspered throughout as need be.

But, cinematics are hard to create from what I hear.

Modifié par nicethugbert, 22 mars 2012 - 09:00 .

[Claudius33]

@DannJ, my mistake. I wrote 'game' but I was thinking 'module'. Yes a player fires NWN2 many times thanks to the collection of excellent mods and thanks to its awesome toolset . However I doubt many players replay the OC or a good mod more than a couple of times.


I have implemented some cinematics to show important events, I must say they are not that easy to implement. I also use introductory conversations which show places of interest when the party enters a new main area or some combat areas. Anyway, I fully support the idea.

By the way, can someone explain me where the 'quote' icon is? I can't find it in the toolbar. Either I'm blind or it doesn't exist  when the forum language is set to French:blink:.

[Arkalezth]

Claudius33 wrote...

By the way, can someone explain me where the 'quote' icon is? I can't find it in the toolbar. Either I'm blind or it doesn't exist  when the forum language is set to French:blink:.

Top right corner of the post "box". You should see "report", "quote", and "link". And "edit" on your own posts, of course.

I don't know how the forums are in French, but I can tell you they're a complete mess in Spanish. Strange symbols, some parts are in English, and I don't even know how to start describing the way dates are shown. I have them set to English, I understand it far better than my supposedly native language on these crappy forums. One would have thought they've had some moment to fix it in the past two or three years, but apparently... no.

Modifié par Arkalezth, 22 mars 2012 - 08:08 .

[Claudius33]

Arkalezth wrote...
Top right corner of the post "box".

Found it! Thanks. I think I'm going to follow your advice and set it to English :happy:.