341 réponses à ce sujet

[Lambchopz]

piemanz wrote...

It's hard not to see you as entitled when every site has been review bombed, and the dev's have been called lazy and incompetant. Especially when you're talking about one os the best games of one of the best series in gaming history, just because the last 10 minutes wern't quite what you wanted...

I don't understand this entitled argument. I really don't. If I pay for something, I'm entitled to both the product I payed for, and I'm certainly entitled to say what I think about it.

Entitled is used in a negative context, but it's not negative. You pay for something, you're entitled to it. Bottom line.

That's why I think comparing this to politics is so ridiculous. This is upset consumers, not people trying to figure out what services people are entitled to from the federal government, but you see that anyways.

[MassEffect762]

Soon as EA see's a decrease in sales on their next project or current project they'll 'get it'.

Let the money do the talking.

[atis]

majormajormmajor wrote...

It bothers me how intellectually dishonest most conversations about the ending are in most places.

The people who hate the ending are attacking the ending itself, the writing of it, it's messages, etc. etc.

You get articles like that Gamefront one linked to above which point-for-point explain what was wrong with the ending and why they hate it.

I don't really see people with any kind of volume making attacks against people who like the ending, like "If you like this ending clearly you are an idiot" or anything. I'm not seeing those kinds of articles, I'm not seeing people post giant rants blaming fans for liking the ending.

Yet, conversely, you have articles like the one Colin Moriarty at IGN or Ben Kuchera at PA Report have done, essentially attacking people who hate the ending and questioning them personally. Instead of trying to defend the ending on its own merits, they resort to basically insults,  calling people entitled whiners who don't understand real sci-fi and just want happy endings with ice cream and cake.

This is what this PA comic is doing too, and it's dishonest and lazy. Gabe's newspost earlier this week tried to address people's actual  criticisms with the ending, but it was still full of attacking the people, not the argument.

I think it's pretty telling when one side is critical of the material, and the other side is critical of the people.

as shep would say we nead to stand together otherwise It's cerberus vs the aliance all over again
do you want that when the reapers retern well do you?

[Korhiann]

firebreather19 wrote...

It's in this thread:

http://social.biowar...index/9787569/1

It might have been a good idea to actually have included this into the game, unless of course it is indeed something we will be seeing in future DLC.
As it stands now it's still up in the air, although it's the only logical explanation.

[Lambchopz]

Also, for the record, there's plenty of us who are being perfectly reasonable. There's always a few sour apples in the bunch, but for the most part, people in this RetakeME3 movement are being perfectly reasonable.

[majormajormmajor]

Too reasonable.

[Aiyie]

ticklefist wrote...

Because they didn't profit from lying to you. A lot of them are just trying to make the best of what they got.

you got three camps.

first one hates the ending and is crusading against it.

second camp hates the ending, but is finding hope in this is a enormous and brilliant gambit by the devs (indoc theory).

third camp has decided that since they can't change it, why fight it?

its fairly easy to figure out who's who... personally, im in the 2nd group, but realistically, i expect ill end up being one of the ones that just accepts it (because as genius as the indoc theory is... i doubt its fiscally feasible for bioware to have risked going that route with the endings and dlc).

because it in the end... id rather enjoy what i can out of the game instead of lose sight of what was good about it because of the ending.

[_NF_Von_Lipwig]

Aiyie wrote...

just out of curiousity... but what does it matter if they like it?  what does it matter if they can't support their opinion?

are you losing money because of it?  are you losing friends because of it?  are you losing sleep because of it?

the first case only applies if you work for bioware... the second and third cases mean you need to step away from the game and go get some perspective.

It really doesn't matter to me if someone liked the ending. I'm not one to tell other people what to like and what not to like. However, a fair few people who like the ending are not content just liking it, but are actively counteracting our plea for a more varied ending. It's almsot as if they're saying "I liked it, so you have no right not to like it!"

And usually, this statement is hidden among sneers and condescending remarks. I can imagine that some people get riled up over that. I'm not losing any sleep over it, but it gets annoying when you're being called an 'entitled whiner' who 'demands' a 'rainbow and sunshine Disney ending', while that is what we are NOT doing.

[firebreather19]

majormajormmajor wrote...

Detroitsoldier wrote...

Funny you should mention that, considering I don't support the way the story ended.

The mentality you demonstrate is a good representation as to how the other side has attempted to frame this debacle, so the comparison remains valid whatever your personal opinion is.

firebreather19 wrote...

It's in this thread:

http://social.biowar...index/9787569/1

That's very nice, but completely inconsequential unless this supposed ending DLC materializes and makes use of it. I could point to a storyboard of alternative scenes from the most abysmal movie in existence and claim "this might have made everything better!" but it will not in itself redeem the movie, because the only thing that counts is what mads it onto screen.

Sure, they could've also put it in and disrupted the entire flow of the game. Putting something in the game that Shepard isn't in immediate contact with doesn't fit. Shepard walks into the beam, and then we get cut away to Joker doing whatever it is he's doing? Throws off the moment and the mystery of the destruction left behind. Plus I can't remember it happeningbefore, save for some minor moments of cutscene setting up the story (IE: Miranda and Illusive Man's scene at beginning of ME2).

It's a story that will matter if you're a hardcore fan, just like the Prothean. 

[piemanz]

Lambchopz wrote...

piemanz wrote...

It's hard not to see you as entitled when every site has been review bombed, and the dev's have been called lazy and incompetant. Especially when you're talking about one os the best games of one of the best series in gaming history, just because the last 10 minutes wern't quite what you wanted...

I don't understand this entitled argument. I really don't. If I pay for something, I'm entitled to both the product I payed for, and I'm certainly entitled to say what I think about it.

Entitled is used in a negative context, but it's not negative. You pay for something, you're entitled to it. Bottom line.

That's why I think comparing this to politics is so ridiculous. This is upset consumers, not people trying to figure out what services people are entitled to from the federal government, but you see that anyways.

Disliking the ending is one thing, but actively campaigning to change it is another, and this is where people start seeing it as entitlement.

Modifié par piemanz, 17 mars 2012 - 03:32 .

[Spectre_Shepard]

dont sink to attacking others. just focus on what our REAL goal is.

hold the line.

[majormajormmajor]

firebreather19 wrote...

Sure, they could've also put it in and disrupted the entire flow of the game. Putting something in the game that Shepard isn't in immediate contact with doesn't fit.

lol magical squadmate teleportation beam

[Lambchopz]

piemanz wrote...

Lambchopz wrote...

piemanz wrote...

It's hard not to see you as entitled when every site has been review bombed, and the dev's have been called lazy and incompetant. Especially when you're talking about one os the best games of one of the best series in gaming history, just because the last 10 minutes wern't quite what you wanted...

I don't understand this entitled argument. I really don't. If I pay for something, I'm entitled to both the product I payed for, and I'm certainly entitled to say what I think about it.

Entitled is used in a negative context, but it's not negative. You pay for something, you're entitled to it. Bottom line.

That's why I think comparing this to politics is so ridiculous. This is upset consumers, not people trying to figure out what services people are entitled to from the federal government, but you see that anyways.

Disliking the ending is one thing, but actively campaigning to change it is another, and this is where people start seeing it as entitlement.

No. It's not another issue. You buy a product and you are disatisfied with it, you express your opinion. Responsible consumer. Deal with it.

Some people decide to be more active about it, some don't. That's your right as a paying customer. Nothign wrong with it, that's the market working how it should.

[Lexagg]

piemanz wrote...

Disliking the ending is one thing, but actively campaigning to change it is another, and this is where people start seeing it as entitlement.

There's nothing wrong with entitlement. It's a buzz-word with a negative connotation created by american political debate. I can just as easily spin the notion of entitlement to say that people who AREN'T entitled are minless drones and yes-men.

[AlexXIV]

piemanz wrote...

Lambchopz wrote...

piemanz wrote...

It's hard not to see you as entitled when every site has been review bombed, and the dev's have been called lazy and incompetant. Especially when you're talking about one os the best games of one of the best series in gaming history, just because the last 10 minutes wern't quite what you wanted...

I don't understand this entitled argument. I really don't. If I pay for something, I'm entitled to both the product I payed for, and I'm certainly entitled to say what I think about it.

Entitled is used in a negative context, but it's not negative. You pay for something, you're entitled to it. Bottom line.

That's why I think comparing this to politics is so ridiculous. This is upset consumers, not people trying to figure out what services people are entitled to from the federal government, but you see that anyways.

Disliking the ending is one thing, but actively campaigning to change it is another, and this is where people start seeing it as entitlement.

It's our game. That's why. They made it with our money. They made it because we buy it. It's not some piece of art that you make and then put in some gallery to view. It's a product. And we are the customers. Why don't you people deal with it?

[firebreather19]

Actively campaigning isn't even bad.

It's the assumption people deserve it. No one deserves anything. Battlefield 3 was the second worst military FPS I've ever played, second only to Medal of Honor. But it happens. You pay for games that don't always work out the way you want.

Now asking for a new ending is totally different, and cool. But making it a case of fans "deserving" it is just...wrong.

[SaladinDheonqar]

Thought it seems that way, it doesn't mean we have to stoop to their level and fling insults back. The more calm, civilised, and reasonable we are, the more the message hits home, especially when their insults hit nothing but empty air. As to why they're attacking us instead of actually defending the ending, it's because they don't really have any other ammunition. None of their arguments have stuck, so all they have left is ad hominem attacks. Just ignore them and persevere!

[johnbonhamatron]

I haven't read the whole thread, but having read the OP... well, I can understand completely how you feel. It's human nature to want to retaliate if someone lashes out at you (that equally goes the other way, too, since someon on our side have lashed out).

However...

That doesn't mean that lashing out is the wise thing to do. I keep remember one of the most important things my mam and dad taught me when I was a wee nipper: "rise above it". I will happily debate about the endings, but I'll not once use it to attack someone else, because as so many have said, it gives the person attacking you what they want, and it ultimately hurts our cause.

You can tell I play paragon, right? :innocent: So, to the OP: stay strong, dude, we'll get through this.

Besides, I'm not going to lie, it's fun to see people raging when they can't get me to say what they want me to say.

Modifié par johnbonhamatron, 17 mars 2012 - 03:37 .

[IST]

 There's 2 types of defenders of the ending.

The people who have convinced themselves that the ending is great for some artistic reason.. and has jettisoned their need to have any form of ending that resembles a logical, fair and deserved story conclusion...


or

The people who believes 100% that the Indoctrinated Theory is correct, and Bioware probably didn't expect this much rage... but a slightly more tempered version.. to act as a catalyst for the upcoming DLC.

I am in the latter group. 

Bring on "Final Fight - Catalyst Edition" DLC : Free would be nice.. (unlikely but..).

[WilliamDracul88]

To the OP: The least we need is dissension. I can understand your frustation, but we must remain calm and civil. We must demand JUSTICE: They lied in the interviews, so we wan't an apology. They messed the ending, we wan't it fixed.
Ignore the people who attack us; our best victory aganist them will be EMERGING VICTORIOUS.
Hold the line, people.

[firebreather19]

AlexXIV wrote...

piemanz wrote...

Lambchopz wrote...

piemanz wrote...

It's hard not to see you as entitled when every site has been review bombed, and the dev's have been called lazy and incompetant. Especially when you're talking about one os the best games of one of the best series in gaming history, just because the last 10 minutes wern't quite what you wanted...

I don't understand this entitled argument. I really don't. If I pay for something, I'm entitled to both the product I payed for, and I'm certainly entitled to say what I think about it.

Entitled is used in a negative context, but it's not negative. You pay for something, you're entitled to it. Bottom line.

That's why I think comparing this to politics is so ridiculous. This is upset consumers, not people trying to figure out what services people are entitled to from the federal government, but you see that anyways.

Disliking the ending is one thing, but actively campaigning to change it is another, and this is where people start seeing it as entitlement.

It's our game. That's why. They made it with our money. They made it because we buy it. It's not some piece of art that you make and then put in some gallery to view. It's a product. And we are the customers. Why don't you people deal with it?

So you walked up to Casey Hudson and put 62.99 in his pocket and said "Make me Mass Effect 3? But it has to be like this and this and this."

I'm sure you were also the guy who thought up the original Mass Effect. Because in that case, it would be your game series. 

Otherwise, you own a disc with a copy of the game on it. Nothing else, really.

[Lambchopz]

firebreather19 wrote...

Actively campaigning isn't even bad.

It's the assumption people deserve it. No one deserves anything. Battlefield 3 was the second worst military FPS I've ever played, second only to Medal of Honor. But it happens. You pay for games that don't always work out the way you want.

Now asking for a new ending is totally different, and cool. But making it a case of fans "deserving" it is just...wrong.

That's really just nitpicking the wording people are using.

That's all this really is, campaigning for a new ending. Some people get more heated then others and slap the concept "deserving" on there or the like, but the end goal is still the same and still within reason.

But you're right, I see where that can cause misconceptions about the movement. Unfortunately, nobody can control others so you just have to take what you can get.

[piemanz]

AlexXIV wrote...

piemanz wrote...

Lambchopz wrote...

piemanz wrote...

It's hard not to see you as entitled when every site has been review bombed, and the dev's have been called lazy and incompetant. Especially when you're talking about one os the best games of one of the best series in gaming history, just because the last 10 minutes wern't quite what you wanted...

I don't understand this entitled argument. I really don't. If I pay for something, I'm entitled to both the product I payed for, and I'm certainly entitled to say what I think about it.

Entitled is used in a negative context, but it's not negative. You pay for something, you're entitled to it. Bottom line.

That's why I think comparing this to politics is so ridiculous. This is upset consumers, not people trying to figure out what services people are entitled to from the federal government, but you see that anyways.

Disliking the ending is one thing, but actively campaigning to change it is another, and this is where people start seeing it as entitlement.

It's our game. That's why. They made it with our money. They made it because we buy it. It's not some piece of art that you make and then put in some gallery to view. It's a product. And we are the customers. Why don't you people deal with it?

This is the very definition of entitlement. Well done for proving my point.

It's not your game, it's Biowares, you're paying for the priveledge/liscence to play it.

Modifié par piemanz, 17 mars 2012 - 03:41 .

[Lambchopz]

piemanz wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

piemanz wrote...

Lambchopz wrote...

piemanz wrote...

It's hard not to see you as entitled when every site has been review bombed, and the dev's have been called lazy and incompetant. Especially when you're talking about one os the best games of one of the best series in gaming history, just because the last 10 minutes wern't quite what you wanted...

I don't understand this entitled argument. I really don't. If I pay for something, I'm entitled to both the product I payed for, and I'm certainly entitled to say what I think about it.

Entitled is used in a negative context, but it's not negative. You pay for something, you're entitled to it. Bottom line.

That's why I think comparing this to politics is so ridiculous. This is upset consumers, not people trying to figure out what services people are entitled to from the federal government, but you see that anyways.

Disliking the ending is one thing, but actively campaigning to change it is another, and this is where people start seeing it as entitlement.

It's our game. That's why. They made it with our money. They made it because we buy it. It's not some piece of art that you make and then put in some gallery to view. It's a product. And we are the customers. Why don't you people deal with it?

This is the very definition of entitlement. Well done for proving my point.

It's not your game, it's biowares, you're paying for the privelidge/liscence to play it.

And without us, BioWare would have no game and no customer base. That is the flaw with your argument that BioWare is the end all be all here.

Again, entitlement is being used in a needlessly negative connotation here. You ARE entitled to the products you pay for.

[Jagdwyre]

MassEffect762 wrote...

Soon as EA see's a decrease in sales on their next project or current project they'll 'get it'.

Let the money do the talking.

That's not going to happen. People have said that with Call of Duty yet for some reason people buy the game more and more with every installment dispite the gamer negativity that surrounds it. Unless you're talking about their ME3 DLC, then maybe. But an entirly different game? Nope.

That also reminds me how silly i think cancelling a SWTOR account because of ME3 is. It's two different design teams, sure I get the principle but it isn't really effective unless litterally a good percentage of players quit for the exact same reason, which also never happens.