341 réponses à ce sujet

[RedMike512]

That's because attacking the message is honest politics, while attacking the messenger is successful politics, unfortunately. OP's post is great though, because I think it points out something important- the ending cannot be defended on merits alone. You have to start getting into the "creators as artists, leave their choices alone" BS for there to be any defense at all, and even then only a weak one.

[piemanz]

Lambchopz wrote...

piemanz wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

piemanz wrote...

Lambchopz wrote...

piemanz wrote...

It's hard not to see you as entitled when every site has been review bombed, and the dev's have been called lazy and incompetant. Especially when you're talking about one os the best games of one of the best series in gaming history, just because the last 10 minutes wern't quite what you wanted...

I don't understand this entitled argument. I really don't. If I pay for something, I'm entitled to both the product I payed for, and I'm certainly entitled to say what I think about it.

Entitled is used in a negative context, but it's not negative. You pay for something, you're entitled to it. Bottom line.

That's why I think comparing this to politics is so ridiculous. This is upset consumers, not people trying to figure out what services people are entitled to from the federal government, but you see that anyways.

Disliking the ending is one thing, but actively campaigning to change it is another, and this is where people start seeing it as entitlement.

It's our game. That's why. They made it with our money. They made it because we buy it. It's not some piece of art that you make and then put in some gallery to view. It's a product. And we are the customers. Why don't you people deal with it?

This is the very definition of entitlement. Well done for proving my point.

It's not your game, it's biowares, you're paying for the privelidge/liscence to play it.

And without us, BioWare would have no game and no customer base. That is the flaw with your argument that BioWare is the end all be all here.

Again, entitlement is being used in a needlessly negative connotation here. You ARE entitled to the products you pay for.

Yes you are, but should Bioware make an ending that satisfys every single customer?. is that really what you're saying. You realise this would require around 40,000 endings and probably more, right?.

[Bluefuse]

Aiyie wrote...

Bluefuse wrote...

Korhiann wrote...

majormajormmajor wrote...

_NF_Von_Lipwig wrote...

The defenders of the ending are trying to discredit the Retakers by personal attacks and incorrect blanket statements rather than valid arguments.

Because they have none.

Oh please, just stop it already.
The very least people can do is show respect for each other.

It's hard to respect someone's opinion who does not put a lot of thought into something, nor can express their opinion in any way other than by saying they "like it". They can't even say what there was to like about it.

just out of curiousity... but what does it matter if they like it?  what does it matter if they can't support their opinion?

are you losing money because of it?  are you losing friends because of it?  are you losing sleep because of it?

the first case only applies if you work for bioware... the second and third cases mean you need to step away from the game and go get some perspective.

You're right. You can tell how much I appreciate the experience that this trilogy has done for me and am offended at anyone who threatens the integrity of the outcome I strive to receive from it. That's why I can't respect anyone's opinion who likes the ending that cannot state why.

[Cosmar]

Agreed, OP. They attack the people who hate the ending instead of trying to defend the ending because they know the ending is not defendable.

[firebreather19]

Lambchopz wrote...

piemanz wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

piemanz wrote...

Lambchopz wrote...

piemanz wrote...

It's hard not to see you as entitled when every site has been review bombed, and the dev's have been called lazy and incompetant. Especially when you're talking about one os the best games of one of the best series in gaming history, just because the last 10 minutes wern't quite what you wanted...

I don't understand this entitled argument. I really don't. If I pay for something, I'm entitled to both the product I payed for, and I'm certainly entitled to say what I think about it.

Entitled is used in a negative context, but it's not negative. You pay for something, you're entitled to it. Bottom line.

That's why I think comparing this to politics is so ridiculous. This is upset consumers, not people trying to figure out what services people are entitled to from the federal government, but you see that anyways.

Disliking the ending is one thing, but actively campaigning to change it is another, and this is where people start seeing it as entitlement.

It's our game. That's why. They made it with our money. They made it because we buy it. It's not some piece of art that you make and then put in some gallery to view. It's a product. And we are the customers. Why don't you people deal with it?

This is the very definition of entitlement. Well done for proving my point.

It's not your game, it's biowares, you're paying for the privelidge/liscence to play it.

And without us, BioWare would have no game and no customer base. That is the flaw with your argument that BioWare is the end all be all here.

Again, entitlement is being used in a needlessly negative connotation here. You ARE entitled to the products you pay for.

They somehow managed to make the original Mass Effect without a customer base.

And if that's the case, I hated the lack of loot in Mass Effect 2. I guess I'm entitled to have them remake the entire game to fix that issue, even though the 95% of the rest of the game was amazing.

Not trying to be a jerk, but just making sure people see both sides of their arguements.

[DalantiaSilverwing]

majormajormmajor wrote...

_NF_Von_Lipwig wrote...

The defenders of the ending are trying to discredit the Retakers by personal attacks and incorrect blanket statements rather than valid arguments.

Because they have none.

My valid argument is this:

I like the ability to imagine how things work out for the world that, in the end, I created, equally (hell, usually moreso) as I am willing to take a canon version forced upon me.  I'm not the kind of person that imagines an Endor holocaust; I imagine victory without reservation.  Mass Effect is, at its heart, a Star Warsy universe, for lack of a better term; more constant technologically, but still a heroic pulpy fantasy, to me.  I know how the Normandy, how the Citadel races, how those who were at the Battle of Sol worked things out, in my head.  "What now?" was the question I had, and my answers were beautiful, even if no one else will ever know what those answers were.

I mistrust the people that argue passionately about how terrible the endings are because, to my perception, they are extremely militant/negatively obsessive about it.  This is a value judgment on my part and I willingly accept that; it isn't intended to be insulting, but it is how I perceive the fervor with which people are throwing themselves into things.  I get grumpy when choices that should be valid are turned into wrong ones because they want very badly for their interpretation of canon to be true (indoctrination theory forces two choices to be wrong, for example).  I don't like being insulted and condescended to and told that I'm crazy, syncophantic, or that I fellate the staff simply because I don't have a problem with writing my own miniutiae.

And make no mistake - I was called those things long before any of the things you deem to be personal attacks ever took place.

Ultimately, there are no facts here.  There are people who enjoy something, and people who dislike it.  Both sides don't get to be placated, regrettably; I'll be downloading the same DLC you do, and I prefer not to get into slapfights with coded canon, so I'll roll with it if it changes.  But I like my answers, and I enjoy the gameplay, so yes, I'm doing another playthrough, both now, and later with any DLC that pops up.

No one is right here, and it has ceased to matter who fired the first shot; but the side that wants to be taken seriously - which is usually the one that wants to change the status quo - needs to not keep shooting in order to actually gain respect.

[Aiyie]

Lambchopz wrote...

piemanz wrote...

Lambchopz wrote...

piemanz wrote...

It's hard not to see you as entitled when every site has been review bombed, and the dev's have been called lazy and incompetant. Especially when you're talking about one os the best games of one of the best series in gaming history, just because the last 10 minutes wern't quite what you wanted...

I don't understand this entitled argument. I really don't. If I pay for something, I'm entitled to both the product I payed for, and I'm certainly entitled to say what I think about it.

Entitled is used in a negative context, but it's not negative. You pay for something, you're entitled to it. Bottom line.

That's why I think comparing this to politics is so ridiculous. This is upset consumers, not people trying to figure out what services people are entitled to from the federal government, but you see that anyways.

Disliking the ending is one thing, but actively campaigning to change it is another, and this is where people start seeing it as entitlement.

No. It's not another issue. You buy a product and you are disatisfied with it, you express your opinion. Responsible consumer. Deal with it.

Some people decide to be more active about it, some don't. That's your right as a paying customer. Nothign wrong with it, that's the market working how it should.

and on the same note, don't be surprised when you get opposition to your campaign.

the only thing people are entitled to are their opinions.  just because you bought a product does not entitle you to enjoyment of said product. 

you bought a story.  that its told in a more interactive way than a movie or book doesn't negate the fact that its someone else's story, written by someone else, with a definitive beginning, middle and end.  you are not entitled to anything beyond being told the story.  what you get out of it is all up to you and is not the responsibility of the authors.

caveat emptor.  buyer beware. 

[Bluefuse]

Cosmar wrote...

Agreed, OP. They attack the people who hate the ending instead of trying to defend the ending because they know the ending is not defendable.

Yes, it clearly isn't.

[majormajormmajor]

piemanz wrote...

Yes you are, but should Bioware make an ending that satisfys every single customer?. is that really what you're saying. You realise this would require around 40,000 endings and probably more, right?.

Hyperbole- you can make a handful of different endings that do a good, if not perfect, job of satisfying most of the audience.

The endings in ME3 please no one, or so few as to be statistically inconsequential.

[piemanz]

firebreather19 wrote...

Lambchopz wrote...

piemanz wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

piemanz wrote...

Lambchopz wrote...

piemanz wrote...

It's hard not to see you as entitled when every site has been review bombed, and the dev's have been called lazy and incompetant. Especially when you're talking about one os the best games of one of the best series in gaming history, just because the last 10 minutes wern't quite what you wanted...

I don't understand this entitled argument. I really don't. If I pay for something, I'm entitled to both the product I payed for, and I'm certainly entitled to say what I think about it.

Entitled is used in a negative context, but it's not negative. You pay for something, you're entitled to it. Bottom line.

That's why I think comparing this to politics is so ridiculous. This is upset consumers, not people trying to figure out what services people are entitled to from the federal government, but you see that anyways.

Disliking the ending is one thing, but actively campaigning to change it is another, and this is where people start seeing it as entitlement.

It's our game. That's why. They made it with our money. They made it because we buy it. It's not some piece of art that you make and then put in some gallery to view. It's a product. And we are the customers. Why don't you people deal with it?

This is the very definition of entitlement. Well done for proving my point.

It's not your game, it's biowares, you're paying for the privelidge/liscence to play it.

And without us, BioWare would have no game and no customer base. That is the flaw with your argument that BioWare is the end all be all here.

Again, entitlement is being used in a needlessly negative connotation here. You ARE entitled to the products you pay for.

They somehow managed to make the original Mass Effect without a customer base.

And if that's the case, I hated the lack of loot in Mass Effect 2. I guess I'm entitled to have them remake the entire game to fix that issue, even though the 95% of the rest of the game was amazing.

Not trying to be a jerk, but just making sure people see both sides of their arguements.

Exactly, I hated planet scanning, surely i'm entitled to have it removed. I payed for the game after all

[akuma1973]

majormajormmajor wrote...

It bothers me how intellectually dishonest most conversations about the ending are in most places.

The people who hate the ending are attacking the ending itself, the writing of it, it's messages, etc. etc.

You get articles like that Gamefront one linked to above which point-for-point explain what was wrong with the ending and why they hate it.

I don't really see people with any kind of volume making attacks against people who like the ending, like "If you like this ending clearly you are an idiot" or anything. I'm not seeing those kinds of articles, I'm not seeing people post giant rants blaming fans for liking the ending.

Yet, conversely, you have articles like the one Colin Moriarty at IGN or Ben Kuchera at PA Report have done, essentially attacking people who hate the ending and questioning them personally. Instead of trying to defend the ending on its own merits, they resort to basically insults,  calling people entitled whiners who don't understand real sci-fi and just want happy endings with ice cream and cake.

This is what this PA comic is doing too, and it's dishonest and lazy. Gabe's newspost earlier this week tried to address people's actual  criticisms with the ending, but it was still full of attacking the people, not the argument.

I think it's pretty telling when one side is critical of the material, and the other side is critical of the people.

What cracks me up is every one of them is an idiot who doesn't know what entitled means. They use as an insult when it isn't.
en·ti·tle  (n-ttl)tr.v. en·ti·tled, en·ti·tling, en·ti·tles1. To give a name or title to.2. To furnish with a right or claim to something: The coupon entitles the bearer to a 25 percent savings. Every citizen is entitled to equal protection under the law.

When they refer to us as entitled they are actually recognizing that we do have a claim and we do have a right to be provided with the the product that was advertised. They are just too poorly educated to recognize that is what they are doing. So next time one of these muppets calls us entitled respond with "Yes, yes we are, thankyou!"
 and provide them with the definition of the word.

[johnbonhamatron]

Lambchopz wrote...

piemanz wrote...

This is the very definition of entitlement. Well done for proving my point.

It's not your game, it's biowares, you're paying for the privelidge/liscence to play it.

And without us, BioWare would have no game and no customer base. That is the flaw with your argument that BioWare is the end all be all here.

Again, entitlement is being used in a needlessly negative connotation here. You ARE entitled to the products you pay for.

It's a reciprocal thing, innit? Two-way street, and all that.

That's the thing I've taken away from recent developments, especially the suggested changes feedback thread, where Bioware have actively said that Mass Effect is as much our story as theirs. I'm going to get needlessly philosophical, here, but... there'd be no story  without Bioware to tell it, just as there'd be no story without an audience willing to listen.

[akuma1973]

piemanz wrote...

Exactly, I hated planet scanning, surely i'm entitled to have it removed. I payed for the game after all

I'm pretty sure no one "payed" for the game. Payed isn't even a word is it? It might be a name, but not a word.

[Lambchopz]

Aiyie wrote...

Lambchopz wrote...

piemanz wrote...

Lambchopz wrote...

piemanz wrote...

It's hard not to see you as entitled when every site has been review bombed, and the dev's have been called lazy and incompetant. Especially when you're talking about one os the best games of one of the best series in gaming history, just because the last 10 minutes wern't quite what you wanted...

I don't understand this entitled argument. I really don't. If I pay for something, I'm entitled to both the product I payed for, and I'm certainly entitled to say what I think about it.

Entitled is used in a negative context, but it's not negative. You pay for something, you're entitled to it. Bottom line.

That's why I think comparing this to politics is so ridiculous. This is upset consumers, not people trying to figure out what services people are entitled to from the federal government, but you see that anyways.

Disliking the ending is one thing, but actively campaigning to change it is another, and this is where people start seeing it as entitlement.

No. It's not another issue. You buy a product and you are disatisfied with it, you express your opinion. Responsible consumer. Deal with it.

Some people decide to be more active about it, some don't. That's your right as a paying customer. Nothign wrong with it, that's the market working how it should.

and on the same note, don't be surprised when you get opposition to your campaign.

the only thing people are entitled to are their opinions.  just because you bought a product does not entitle you to enjoyment of said product. 

you bought a story.  that its told in a more interactive way than a movie or book doesn't negate the fact that its someone else's story, written by someone else, with a definitive beginning, middle and end.  you are not entitled to anything beyond being told the story.  what you get out of it is all up to you and is not the responsibility of the authors.

caveat emptor.  buyer beware. 

I'm not surprised. All I'm doing is defending the movement, that's all I can do when faced with the opposition.

I have a real problem with that claim though, which is why I get so uppity about it. I'm not surprised it's out there, but it's frustrating after voicing legitimate concersn and mostly constructive feedback, people just go "lol entiteld whiner."

So, it's give and take. You want me to respect your opinion, you respect mine. Deal?

[wombat_stalker]

It is getting rather tiresome to be the butt-end of personal attacks and belittlement from people who think they're perfectly entitled to using ad hominems instead of actual reasoning.

It sucks.

But I'm still not going to stoop to their level.

[sorentoft]

Why? Because you do not want to become what you despise. They can insult me all they want, I will still be nice to them.

[Torrible]

Lambchopz wrote...


And without us, BioWare would have no game and no customer base. That is the flaw with your argument that BioWare is the end all be all here.

Again, entitlement is being used in a needlessly negative connotation here. You ARE entitled to the products you pay for.

You are entitled to hate on it.
You are entitled to voice your dislike of it in the forums.
You are entitled to boycott all future Bioware games.
You are entitled to tell all your friends to boybott future Bioware games.
However, Bioware does NOT owe you a new ending, especially when there are many people who didn't have a problem with it. 

Modifié par Torrible, 17 mars 2012 - 03:59 .

[Jagdwyre]

After reading this thread I don't think I ever want to hear the word "Entitled" ever again.

[piemanz]

akuma1973 wrote...

piemanz wrote...

Exactly, I hated planet scanning, surely i'm entitled to have it removed. I payed for the game after all

I'm pretty sure no one "payed" for the game. Payed isn't even a word is it? It might be a name, but not a word.

......I'm sorry, did it make my comment unreadable for you.

[johnbonhamatron]

piemanz wrote...

Yes you are, but should Bioware make an ending that satisfys every single customer?. is that really what you're saying. You realise this would require around 40,000 endings and probably more, right?.

Ah, but, would it? One thing I've noticed about the feedback thread is that there's a LOT of commonality between the things people are asking for. Honestly, at this stage, it looks less like 40,000 people asking for 40,000 diffferent things, and more like they're asking for only 2 or 3 different things.

Which is a lot easier to sort out.

[majormajormmajor]

Jagdwyre wrote...

After reading this thread I don't think I ever want to hear the word "Entitled" ever again.

www.youtube.com/watch

[Jagdwyre]

majormajormmajor wrote...

Jagdwyre wrote...

After reading this thread I don't think I ever want to hear the word "Entitled" ever again.

www.youtube.com/watch

Hey, I loved Dexter's Labratory.

[Lambchopz]

Torrible wrote...

You are entitled to hate on it.
You are entitled to voice your dislike of it in the forums.
You are entitled to boycott all future Bioware games.
You are entitled to tell all your friends to boybott future Bioware games.
However, Bioware does NOT owe you a new ending, especially when there are many people who didn't have a problem with it. 

I never said they owed us anything. Vehement opposition does not equal feeling we were owed something.

That's part of the problem. When we say we want a new ending, that's perfectly reasonable. BioWare certainly is within their power to do it or not do it, but we are more then entitled (fun word, huh?) to ask for it.

This claim that we feel we are "owed" something is a bit disingenous. We WANT something, but not all of us think we deserve it or are.. ahem... entitled to it. It's fine to ask though.

[akuma1973]

johnbonhamatron wrote...


That's the thing I've taken away from recent developments, especially the suggested changes feedback thread, where Bioware have actively said that Mass Effect is as much our story as theirs. I'm going to get needlessly philosophical, here, but... there'd be no story  without Bioware to tell it, just as there'd be no story without an audience willing to listen.

Except, that's not how RPG's work, It is the player who tells the story Bioware just builds the world we tell it in. And what's that line from Shakespeare? "
All the world's a stage, And all the men and women merely players." So what would be more appropriate is " There would be no players to tell the story if Bioware didn't build the stage ".

[atis]

let's not fall in to this if we start fighting with each other we cant find a solution to the bigger problem