341 réponses à ce sujet

[akuma1973]

piemanz wrote...

akuma1973 wrote...

piemanz wrote...

Exactly, I hated planet scanning, surely i'm entitled to have it removed. I payed for the game after all

I'm pretty sure no one "payed" for the game. Payed isn't even a word is it? It might be a name, but not a word.

......I'm sorry, did it make my comment unreadable for you.

No, but you surely didn't use english.

[Torrible]

Lambchopz wrote...

Torrible wrote...

You are entitled to hate on it.
You are entitled to voice your dislike of it in the forums.
You are entitled to boycott all future Bioware games.
You are entitled to tell all your friends to boybott future Bioware games.
However, Bioware does NOT owe you a new ending, especially when there are many people who didn't have a problem with it. 

I never said they owed us anything. Vehement opposition does not equal feeling we were owed something.

That's part of the problem. When we say we want a new ending, that's perfectly reasonable. BioWare certainly is within their power to do it or not do it, but we are more then entitled (fun word, huh?) to ask for it.

This claim that we feel we are "owed" something is a bit disingenous. We WANT something, but not all of us think we deserve it or are.. ahem... entitled to it. It's fine to ask though.

Fair enough. I think it is perfectly fine to make a reasonable request, but not to demand it.

[johnbonhamatron]

akuma1973 wrote...

johnbonhamatron wrote...


That's the thing I've taken away from recent developments, especially the suggested changes feedback thread, where Bioware have actively said that Mass Effect is as much our story as theirs. I'm going to get needlessly philosophical, here, but... there'd be no story  without Bioware to tell it, just as there'd be no story without an audience willing to listen.

Except, that's not how RPG's work, It is the player who tells the story Bioware just builds the world we tell it in. And what's that line from Shakespeare? "
All the world's a stage, And all the men and women merely players." So what would be more appropriate is " There would be no players to tell the story if Bioware didn't build the stage ".

Dammit, your analogy is WAY better than mine!

[Jagdwyre]

Torrible wrote...

However, Bioware does NOT owe you a new ending, especially when there are many people who didn't have a problem with it.

It's not about owe, it's about telling them that we want the ending to be better as to live up to what the rest of the game was, outstanding.
And I like the wording there "many people who didn't have a problem with it."
How many actually liked it? Loved it? Not "didn't have a problem" with it?
Who's the majority?

Bioware wants to make games people love, and people who didn't like the ending at all are trying to help them do that.
It's not about what we deserve, it's not about what Bioware deserves, it's about what Mass Effect deserves. And it deserves continuity.

Modifié par Jagdwyre, 17 mars 2012 - 04:01 .

[piemanz]

Lambchopz wrote...

Torrible wrote...

You are entitled to hate on it.
You are entitled to voice your dislike of it in the forums.
You are entitled to boycott all future Bioware games.
You are entitled to tell all your friends to boybott future Bioware games.
However, Bioware does NOT owe you a new ending, especially when there are many people who didn't have a problem with it. 

I never said they owed us anything. Vehement opposition does not equal feeling we were owed something.

That's part of the problem. When we say we want a new ending, that's perfectly reasonable. BioWare certainly is within their power to do it or not do it, but we are more then entitled (fun word, huh?) to ask for it.

This claim that we feel we are "owed" something is a bit disingenous. We WANT something, but not all of us think we deserve it or are.. ahem... entitled to it. It's fine to ask though.

I have no probelm with them clearing a few things up on the current endings, but changing the endings in such a way that makes the current ones invalid, or pointless, is a big no no.

For instance, many people want the full rainbows and unicorn ending, this would make any other ending that involves sacrifice totally pointless. Why would anyone choose to die whan there's an option to survive.

[Lambchopz]

Torrible wrote...

Lambchopz wrote...

Torrible wrote...

You are entitled to hate on it.
You are entitled to voice your dislike of it in the forums.
You are entitled to boycott all future Bioware games.
You are entitled to tell all your friends to boybott future Bioware games.
However, Bioware does NOT owe you a new ending, especially when there are many people who didn't have a problem with it. 

I never said they owed us anything. Vehement opposition does not equal feeling we were owed something.

That's part of the problem. When we say we want a new ending, that's perfectly reasonable. BioWare certainly is within their power to do it or not do it, but we are more then entitled (fun word, huh?) to ask for it.

This claim that we feel we are "owed" something is a bit disingenous. We WANT something, but not all of us think we deserve it or are.. ahem... entitled to it. It's fine to ask though.

Fair enough. I think it is perfectly fine to make a reasonable request, but not to demand it.

I don't know many people who are demanding it. I don't consider any of this a demand, just a passionate request for a new ending with a solid case behind it. Some are also reasonably saying without it, they will take their business elsewhere, some are just asking in good faith. Some have already moved on and taken their wallets with them.

Nobody is saying it's the end of the world if we don't get it or anything like that.

Also, I would understand this argument more if it weren't such a large movement built around constructive and coherent arguments.

Regardless, the purpose, whether you agree with it or not, is perfectly reasonable as a paying customer.

Like I said, you respect my opinion and my right to my opinion, and I respect yours. That's all I'm asking.

[Aiyie]

And without us, BioWare would have no game and no customer base. That is the flaw with your argument that BioWare is the end all be all here.

Again, entitlement is being used in a needlessly negative connotation here. You ARE entitled to the products you pay for.

yes, you are entitled to the product you pay for... but that's it.  you paid for the game as a whole, you did not pay for specific aspects of the game to be tailored to your particular desire.

did you specify before buying the game what level of quality was required?  i dunno bout you, but i had no say in the quality assurance aspect of this product during its development. 

unless you paid for a specific ending all you have is an expectation of receiving a certain product, not an entitlement to that expected product.

its ok to be disappointed, but lets be very clear about what you paid for here, and what specifically that entitles you to receive in compensation.

finally, none of this is an excuse for a poor product, the results of a poor product make themselves apparent via the free-market.  obviously its in bioware's best interest to provide us with a top-notch product, but it certainly doesn't entitle you to receive one.

"you get what you pay for" is only half the truth... it should really be "you get what you're willing to pay for, good or bad."

[majormajormmajor]

piemanz wrote...

For instance, many people want the full rainbows and unicorn ending, this would make any other ending that involves sacrifice totally pointless. Why would anyone choose to die whan there's an option to survive.

"THE OPTION FOR A HAPPY END SHOULD NOT BE AVAILABLE BECAUSE NO ONE ELSE WOULD CHOOSE THE GRIMDARK EDGY ONES"

That's the idea.

[johnbonhamatron]

piemanz wrote...

Lambchopz wrote...

Torrible wrote...

You are entitled to hate on it.
You are entitled to voice your dislike of it in the forums.
You are entitled to boycott all future Bioware games.
You are entitled to tell all your friends to boybott future Bioware games.
However, Bioware does NOT owe you a new ending, especially when there are many people who didn't have a problem with it. 

I never said they owed us anything. Vehement opposition does not equal feeling we were owed something.

That's part of the problem. When we say we want a new ending, that's perfectly reasonable. BioWare certainly is within their power to do it or not do it, but we are more then entitled (fun word, huh?) to ask for it.

This claim that we feel we are "owed" something is a bit disingenous. We WANT something, but not all of us think we deserve it or are.. ahem... entitled to it. It's fine to ask though.

I have no probelm with them clearing a few things up on the current endings, but changing the endings in such a way that makes the current ones invalid, or pointless, is a big no no.

For instance, many people want the full rainbows and unicorn ending, this would make any other ending that involves sacrifice totally pointless. Why would anyone choose to die whan there's an option to survive.

I disagree that it would render the current options pointless, because it's something that, if it comes down to a choice, you could still choose the endings as they are now.

However...would you accept it if current endings were expanded on, to fill in some of the gaps, and new endings were added to the ones that already exist, for players who want that option?

[Kingthlayer]

Reptilian Rob wrote...

majormajormmajor wrote...

As far as I am concerned they are swine, personally repugnant as human beings and we should vigorously and vociferously attack them wherever they are.

Please be quite, less you make this movement look even more terrible than it already does in the media's eyes. 

Are game sites really media?  I mean honestly I had no idea who these people are or their sites until they started attacking people who dislike the ending.

[Lambchopz]

Aiyie wrote...

And without us, BioWare would have no game and no customer base. That is the flaw with your argument that BioWare is the end all be all here.

Again, entitlement is being used in a needlessly negative connotation here. You ARE entitled to the products you pay for.

yes, you are entitled to the product you pay for... but that's it.  you paid for the game as a whole, you did not pay for specific aspects of the game to be tailored to your particular desire.

did you specify before buying the game what level of quality was required?  i dunno bout you, but i had no say in the quality assurance aspect of this product during its development. 

unless you paid for a specific ending all you have is an expectation of receiving a certain product, not an entitlement to that expected product.

its ok to be disappointed, but lets be very clear about what you paid for here, and what specifically that entitles you to receive in compensation.

finally, none of this is an excuse for a poor product, the results of a poor product make themselves apparent via the free-market.  obviously its in bioware's best interest to provide us with a top-notch product, but it certainly doesn't entitle you to receive one.

"you get what you pay for" is only half the truth... it should really be "you get what you're willing to pay for, good or bad."

I'm not disagreeing with this, I'm disagreeing with being put down because of trying to push for something about the game to be fixed.

[BaladasDemnevanni]

piemanz wrote...

Yes you are, but should Bioware make an ending that satisfys every single customer?. is that really what you're saying. You realise this would require around 40,000 endings and probably more, right?.

No, but there is a substantial difference between satisfying every customer and the majority of your customers. People complained about Assassin's Creed 1's repetition, which Ubisoft listened to. But if you look hard enough, you'll find fans who really did prefer that structure to that of its successors.

The goal here is not to satisfy every single customer, but for Bioware to realize that there are a huge number of complaints, more than the typical which you would find on an internet forum, and to find a way to create more satisfied customers.

One person complaining that Red Dead Redemption's ending was "too sad" wouldn't change anything. But a 1,000? 10,000? 500,000? The likelihood of a group getting their way is hugely dependent on their numbers and resources, especially when dealing with a company.

Modifié par BaladasDemnevanni, 17 mars 2012 - 04:06 .

[akuma1973]

Aiyie wrote...

And without us, BioWare would have no game and no customer base. That is the flaw with your argument that BioWare is the end all be all here.

Again, entitlement is being used in a needlessly negative connotation here. You ARE entitled to the products you pay for.

yes, you are entitled to the product you pay for... but that's it.  you paid for the game as a whole, you did not pay for specific aspects of the game to be tailored to your particular desire.

did you specify before buying the game what level of quality was required?  i dunno bout you, but i had no say in the quality assurance aspect of this product during its development. 

unless you paid for a specific ending all you have is an expectation of receiving a certain product, not an entitlement to that expected product.

its ok to be disappointed, but lets be very clear about what you paid for here, and what specifically that entitles you to receive in compensation.

finally, none of this is an excuse for a poor product, the results of a poor product make themselves apparent via the free-market.  obviously its in bioware's best interest to provide us with a top-notch product, but it certainly doesn't entitle you to receive one.

"you get what you pay for" is only half the truth... it should really be "you get what you're willing to pay for, good or bad."

But you are entitled to get what you bought based on advertising. And the ending makes a lot of the marketing for the game false advertising. One reviewer even pointed out that after Bioware defended the 3 endings they said you would not get, that the website still marketed the game as having an ending tailored to your decisions throughout the series.

[Lambchopz]

akuma1973 wrote...

Aiyie wrote...

And without us, BioWare would have no game and no customer base. That is the flaw with your argument that BioWare is the end all be all here.

Again, entitlement is being used in a needlessly negative connotation here. You ARE entitled to the products you pay for.

yes, you are entitled to the product you pay for... but that's it.  you paid for the game as a whole, you did not pay for specific aspects of the game to be tailored to your particular desire.

did you specify before buying the game what level of quality was required?  i dunno bout you, but i had no say in the quality assurance aspect of this product during its development. 

unless you paid for a specific ending all you have is an expectation of receiving a certain product, not an entitlement to that expected product.

its ok to be disappointed, but lets be very clear about what you paid for here, and what specifically that entitles you to receive in compensation.

finally, none of this is an excuse for a poor product, the results of a poor product make themselves apparent via the free-market.  obviously its in bioware's best interest to provide us with a top-notch product, but it certainly doesn't entitle you to receive one.

"you get what you pay for" is only half the truth... it should really be "you get what you're willing to pay for, good or bad."

But you are entitled to get what you bought based on advertising. And the ending makes a lot of the marketing for the game false advertising. One reviewer even pointed out that after Bioware defended the 3 endings they said you would not get, that the website still marketed the game as having an ending tailored to your decisions throughout the series.

This comes down to brand loyalty and fanservice, which is different from entitlement to a product you payed for, but important nonetheless.

We can't sue them for giving us disingenous promises, but it certainly looks bad, and sometimes that is every bit as important to a profit seeking company.

[WilliamDracul88]

Big Mac Heart Attack wrote...

Are game sites really media?  I mean honestly I had no idea who these people are or their sites until they started attacking people who dislike the ending.

Don't say it so loud, or more will do it!

[piemanz]

johnbonhamatron wrote...

piemanz wrote...

Lambchopz wrote...

Torrible wrote...

You are entitled to hate on it.
You are entitled to voice your dislike of it in the forums.
You are entitled to boycott all future Bioware games.
You are entitled to tell all your friends to boybott future Bioware games.
However, Bioware does NOT owe you a new ending, especially when there are many people who didn't have a problem with it. 

I never said they owed us anything. Vehement opposition does not equal feeling we were owed something.

That's part of the problem. When we say we want a new ending, that's perfectly reasonable. BioWare certainly is within their power to do it or not do it, but we are more then entitled (fun word, huh?) to ask for it.

This claim that we feel we are "owed" something is a bit disingenous. We WANT something, but not all of us think we deserve it or are.. ahem... entitled to it. It's fine to ask though.

I have no probelm with them clearing a few things up on the current endings, but changing the endings in such a way that makes the current ones invalid, or pointless, is a big no no.

For instance, many people want the full rainbows and unicorn ending, this would make any other ending that involves sacrifice totally pointless. Why would anyone choose to die whan there's an option to survive.

I disagree that it would render the current options pointless, because it's something that, if it comes down to a choice, you could still choose the endings as they are now.

However...would you accept it if current endings were expanded on, to fill in some of the gaps, and new endings were added to the ones that already exist, for players who want that option?

It would render the current endings pointless because you would finally be faced with the decision where everything is hunky dory or defeating the Reapers at a huge cost. It would be just plain stupid to not choose the hunky dory ending, that's not to say it's better, because it doesn't fit with the tone of the game and makes a joke of the Reaper threat.

Modifié par piemanz, 17 mars 2012 - 04:11 .

[majormajormmajor]

piemanz wrote...

It would render the current endings pointless because you would finally be faced with the decision where everything is hunky dory or defeating the Reapers at a huge cost. It would be just plain stupid to not choose the hunky dory ending, that's not to say it's better, because it doesn't fit with the tone of the game and makes a joke of the Reaper threat.

i.e. "I DON'T WANT OTHERS TO HAVE THE ENDING I DON'T LIKE"

[akuma1973]

piemanz wrote...


It would render the current endings pointless because you would finally be faced with the decision where everything is hunky dory or defeating the Reapers at a huge cost. It would be just plain stupid to not choose the hunky dory ending, that's not to say it's better, because it doesn't fit with the tone of the game and makes a joke of the Reaper threat.

well give me the option to Renegade interrupt Starchild and throw him out an airlock before blowing my brains out because I don't want to destroy the galaxy that I spent 5 years saving

[Aiyie]

and on the same note, don't be surprised when you get opposition to your campaign.

the only thing people are entitled to are their opinions.  just because you bought a product does not entitle you to enjoyment of said product. 

you bought a story.  that its told in a more interactive way than a movie or book doesn't negate the fact that its someone else's story, written by someone else, with a definitive beginning, middle and end.  you are not entitled to anything beyond being told the story.  what you get out of it is all up to you and is not the responsibility of the authors.

caveat emptor.  buyer beware. 

I'm not surprised. All I'm doing is defending the movement, that's all I can do when faced with the opposition.

I have a real problem with that claim though, which is why I get so uppity about it. I'm not surprised it's out there, but it's frustrating after voicing legitimate concersn and mostly constructive feedback, people just go "lol entiteld whiner."

So, it's give and take. You want me to respect your opinion, you respect mine. Deal?

absolutely, you're entitled to your opinion.

hell, personally im not a huge fan of the ending.  there are plot holes and it feels just slapped on.  im personally hoping the indoc theory is true (that would be brilliant... right up there with bioshock's "would you kindly" scene).  but if its not, ok, fine, i got suckered, but thats may fault for not doing the proper research prior to putting my money on the counter.

that said though, i can respect that its not my story, its the author's story (and contrary to popular opinion, im not the author... im just along for the ride in a spectacular interactive story... a choose-your-own-adventure story).

if they wanted to leave it the way they did, so be it.  i paid for the game, i wasn't involved in its development... im not entitled to anything beyond having a functioning disc with a copy of the game on it.  how the game plays out wasn't something i specified prior to purchasing the game.

in any case though, thats my opinion.  yours is probably different.  nothing wrong with that, just agree to disagree and ignore the petty insults since they're not worth the time or effort to be concerned about.

Modifié par Aiyie, 17 mars 2012 - 04:20 .

[Xarathos]

Because we're better than that, and can afford to keep to the moral and intellectual high ground.

Plus, we're RIGHT. If we stoop to their level, that fact will get lost.

[johnbonhamatron]

piemanz wrote...

johnbonhamatron wrote...

I disagree that it would render the current options pointless, because it's something that, if it comes down to a choice, you could still choose the endings as they are now.

However...would you accept it if current endings were expanded on, to fill in some of the gaps, and new endings were added to the ones that already exist, for players who want that option?

It would render the current endings pointless because you would finally be faced with the decision where everything is hunky dory or defeating the Reapers at a huge cost. It would be just plain stupid to not choose the hunky dory ending, that's not to say it's better, because it doesn't fit with the tone of the game and makes a joke of the Reaper threat.

Well, to be honest, I'm not asking for hunky dory endings, but you've highlighted wat the big problem with the ending was, for me. It felt so disconnected from everything that had gone before it. With the alternate set of endings I had in mind, they'd still come at massive cost to the galaxy as a whole (and I'll be honest, most of them would still have Shepard dying, since I'll agree, the narrative did feel like it was building up to that all along).

But I ask: how would an alternate set of endings (that still have a massive cost in terms of casualties) detract from the endings you personally like?

ETA: 
I've just realised we're completely spamming up the OP's thread with something off-topic, should we take it to PMs?

Modifié par johnbonhamatron, 17 mars 2012 - 04:19 .

[NormanRawn]

An example to be fair, saying you found the Catalyst logic to be stupid is, in itself, an insult to the developers intelligence.  After all, the catalyst didn't write it's own dialoge, BioWare did.

[Dranks]

I hated the endings and will fight to have them changed, but I would never call for the death of anybody for them or or the employees that created them. This world would be in such a better state if we learned to love rather than hate, especially over the smaller things. Whether people believe in God or not, most can appreciate the golden rule. Do unto others as you would have others do unto you.

Do not lower yourself by participating in childish insults. You're the only one it hurts.

[Kulthar Drax]

We need to remain civil and not insult people. There is no call for insulting others just because they may actually like the endings. There is no harm in disagreeing with the endings, or liking the endings, or dissecting the reasons for liking/not liking them. But leave out the personal attacks.

[akuma1973]

Aiyie wrote...



absolutely, you're entitled to your opinion.

hell, personally im not a huge fan of the ending.  there are plot holes and it feels just slapped on.  im personally hoping the indoc theory is true (that would be brilliant... right up there with bioshock's "would you kindly" scene).  but if its not, ok, fine, i got suckered, but thats may fault for not doing the proper research prior to putting my money on the counter.

that said though, i can respect that its not my story, its the author's story (and contrary to popular opinion, im not the author... im just along for the ride in a spectacular interactive story... a choose-your-own-adventure story).

if they wanted to leave it the way they did, so be it.  i paid for the game, i wasn't involved in its development... im not entitled to anything beyond having a functioning disc with a copy of the game on it.  how the game plays out wasn't something i specified prior to purchasing the game.

in any case though, thats my opinion.  yours is probably different.  nothing wrong with that, just agree to disagree and ignore the petty insults since they're not worth the time or effort to be concerned about.

So then you would be satsified if you got your game home, opened it up, it said ME 3 on the disk, you popped it in and you had hannah montana the movie, on the disk? with Shep rendered in over miley Cyrus? Or perhaps you pop the disk in and it loaded up into the end sequence with Star child? You would be fine with that?