341 réponses à ce sujet

[DemGeth]

Oh no they like a video game ending you don't

I'd also be upset.....very upset.....very very upset.....



(Ok wouldn't care)

[Hashbeth]

Ad hominem arguments are never justified in any discussion.

[Wowlock]

In the end, all they can do is insults. We have our legit claims around the forums and internet.
When people actually understand the reasons and see our ''civil'' acts, they will come to respect and support us ( sites like Forbes for example )

I don't think insulting would help anyone and from what I see, those examples you gave on OP post, they are just cheap tricks to taunt us.

When someone attack me personally for my Legit problems, I choose to ignore his snarky comments and do not value his opinion since he does the same to be...but never insult them since they will have a wild card later on saying '' SEE ? You insulted me ! '' . Even if they started it , they will get what they want.

Second reason, it is against the rules of the forums. No matter how much we hate the ending or not approve the current stance of Bioware , this is still their forum and they have rules. If you see anyone attacking you personally just report their posts and they cannot access to these forums. Simple as that.

Both sides have extremists but this shouldn't prompt us to stoop on to their level.

[2484Stryker]

majormajormmajor wrote...

It bothers me how intellectually dishonest most conversations about the ending are in most places.

The people who hate the ending are attacking the ending itself, the writing of it, it's messages, etc. etc.

You get articles like that Gamefront one linked to above which point-for-point explain what was wrong with the ending and why they hate it.

I don't really see people with any kind of volume making attacks against people who like the ending, like "If you like this ending clearly you are an idiot" or anything. I'm not seeing those kinds of articles, I'm not seeing people post giant rants blaming fans for liking the ending.

Yet, conversely, you have articles like the one Colin Moriarty at IGN or Ben Kuchera at PA Report have done, essentially attacking people who hate the ending and questioning them personally. Instead of trying to defend the ending on its own merits, they resort to basically insults,  calling people entitled whiners who don't understand real sci-fi and just want happy endings with ice cream and cake.

This is what this PA comic is doing too, and it's dishonest and lazy. Gabe's newspost earlier this week tried to address people's actual  criticisms with the ending, but it was still full of attacking the people, not the argument.

I think it's pretty telling when one side is critical of the material, and the other side is critical of the people.

I think you answered your own question with your post (well-written, btw).  You obviously dislike what the other side is resorting to (as I do), so why join them?  This isn't like a shooting war where "if the other side has guns, then so will I".  This is about who's right and who's above the childish antics.  So by remaining civil, you're only making your point stronger.

Modifié par 2484Stryker, 17 mars 2012 - 06:06 .

[Esoretal]

Refraining from personal attacks on both sides would be nice. Insulting people gets us nowhere.

[MadMrMalkav]

firebreather19 wrote...

MadMrMalkav wrote...

AsheraII wrote...

The minute someone posts that he/she likes the endings, or even that he/she is okay with the endings, those who dislike the endings seem to take that as a personal attack. Nonsense like "you're stupid, you don't understand the Mass Effect IP" gets flung at them. I'm sorry, but to me it just seems that the haters who were previously trying to spew their garbage about SW:TOR have moved onto Mass Effect now. The haters at swtor went suspiciously quiet last week. Coincidence? Well, I simply don't believe in coincidence.

There's definitely some hate campaign against Bioware going on, and plenty of little children who should be too young to even buy this game tacked on to it to be with the "cool /v/ crowd".

Not really. I loved DA:2 despite its many gameplay and story flaws. It was still an enjyoable game. I still love SW:Tor and have played since the betta weeked. I have defended everything Bioware has ever done INCLUDING the day 1 DLC and Tali Shop as lazy/greedy but livable. However when they do something indefensible and that I feal is downright insulting to their fans such as the ending I have to join in and add my voice. Many of the others on the FB and forums of of similar mindset. These aren't angry childish haters trying to take down Bioware for some sinister reason, these are Bioware's msot devoted and loyal fans.

That's weird, because I'm pretty sure bioware's most devoted and loyal fans would probably think back to the previous 2 mass effect games, and the first 95% of mass effect 3, and assume since all of that was amazing, that maybe...just maybe...they know what they're doing, and that they should be allowed to finish what they started.

I would love to belive they know what they are doing. But up until now they have given us no evidence this wasn't what they wanted. If they break the silence and say something it might restore my face but thats the equivilant of saying that just because I love a person "Baby, its not what it looks like" is a trustworthy defence.

[firebreather19]

MadMrMalkav wrote...

firebreather19 wrote...

MadMrMalkav wrote...

AsheraII wrote...

The minute someone posts that he/she likes the endings, or even that he/she is okay with the endings, those who dislike the endings seem to take that as a personal attack. Nonsense like "you're stupid, you don't understand the Mass Effect IP" gets flung at them. I'm sorry, but to me it just seems that the haters who were previously trying to spew their garbage about SW:TOR have moved onto Mass Effect now. The haters at swtor went suspiciously quiet last week. Coincidence? Well, I simply don't believe in coincidence.

There's definitely some hate campaign against Bioware going on, and plenty of little children who should be too young to even buy this game tacked on to it to be with the "cool /v/ crowd".

Not really. I loved DA:2 despite its many gameplay and story flaws. It was still an enjyoable game. I still love SW:Tor and have played since the betta weeked. I have defended everything Bioware has ever done INCLUDING the day 1 DLC and Tali Shop as lazy/greedy but livable. However when they do something indefensible and that I feal is downright insulting to their fans such as the ending I have to join in and add my voice. Many of the others on the FB and forums of of similar mindset. These aren't angry childish haters trying to take down Bioware for some sinister reason, these are Bioware's msot devoted and loyal fans.

That's weird, because I'm pretty sure bioware's most devoted and loyal fans would probably think back to the previous 2 mass effect games, and the first 95% of mass effect 3, and assume since all of that was amazing, that maybe...just maybe...they know what they're doing, and that they should be allowed to finish what they started.

I would love to belive they know what they are doing. But up until now they have given us no evidence this wasn't what they wanted. If they break the silence and say something it might restore my face but thats the equivilant of saying that just because I love a person "Baby, its not what it looks like" is a trustworthy defence.

If you've been with them that long, then yes it is.

And stupid them for believing they had loyal and devoted fans who would at least give them the opportunity to conclude their story. Personally one of the worst things I feared about this game was that I'd get to the end and it'd be over, and that's it. Knowing there is most likely something else out there...maybe a real ending, maybe not...is pretty nice. Not because I need a real ending, but because I like to know there's more of the universe to explore.

ME3 is still the greatest game ever made, nonetheless.

[Ryokun1989]

Talogrungi wrote...

If you attack the person rather than the argument, you've already lost.

Yup, honestly I have been insulted a lot of times already for liking the ending. The first reaction I got to my opinion was "You are a fool!". But whatever. I can take it, I can be a bit hot headed myself to some people too. But I wouldn't personally insult people though.

[LordHelfort]

If you have to attack the person, that means you are unable to construct a coherent response to their argument.

Attacking the person in this case is tantamount to saying the ME3 ending is good.

Do you really want to do that?

Hold the Line!

[Madcat 124]

 We can't give them a reason to hate us/ We gotta Ghandi it up in here!

[SilverBecker]

Attacking the people that are calling you a immature whiner only gives them ammunition to use against you and the movement as a whole. It validates their arguments and opinions. Prove them wrong, don't do it.

[mrderp27]

ad hominem arguments are stupid

[Lankist]

Rule 1 of civilized discourse is to attack the speech, not the speaker.

Whichever position you subscribe to, just remember that we're all just folk. Treat people like they're people, and don't fall into the trap of attributing flaws, mistakes or otherwise perceived inadequacies of an idea to its speaker as a human being. Such will get you nowhere.

[MadMrMalkav]

firebreather19 wrote...

MadMrMalkav wrote...

firebreather19 wrote...

MadMrMalkav wrote...

AsheraII wrote...

The minute someone posts that he/she likes the endings, or even that he/she is okay with the endings, those who dislike the endings seem to take that as a personal attack. Nonsense like "you're stupid, you don't understand the Mass Effect IP" gets flung at them. I'm sorry, but to me it just seems that the haters who were previously trying to spew their garbage about SW:TOR have moved onto Mass Effect now. The haters at swtor went suspiciously quiet last week. Coincidence? Well, I simply don't believe in coincidence.

There's definitely some hate campaign against Bioware going on, and plenty of little children who should be too young to even buy this game tacked on to it to be with the "cool /v/ crowd".

Not really. I loved DA:2 despite its many gameplay and story flaws. It was still an enjyoable game. I still love SW:Tor and have played since the betta weeked. I have defended everything Bioware has ever done INCLUDING the day 1 DLC and Tali Shop as lazy/greedy but livable. However when they do something indefensible and that I feal is downright insulting to their fans such as the ending I have to join in and add my voice. Many of the others on the FB and forums of of similar mindset. These aren't angry childish haters trying to take down Bioware for some sinister reason, these are Bioware's msot devoted and loyal fans.

That's weird, because I'm pretty sure bioware's most devoted and loyal fans would probably think back to the previous 2 mass effect games, and the first 95% of mass effect 3, and assume since all of that was amazing, that maybe...just maybe...they know what they're doing, and that they should be allowed to finish what they started.

I would love to belive they know what they are doing. But up until now they have given us no evidence this wasn't what they wanted. If they break the silence and say something it might restore my face but thats the equivilant of saying that just because I love a person "Baby, its not what it looks like" is a trustworthy defence.

If you've been with them that long, then yes it is.

And stupid them for believing they had loyal and devoted fans who would at least give them the opportunity to conclude their story. Personally one of the worst things I feared about this game was that I'd get to the end and it'd be over, and that's it. Knowing there is most likely something else out there...maybe a real ending, maybe not...is pretty nice. Not because I need a real ending, but because I like to know there's more of the universe to explore.

ME3 is still the greatest game ever made, nonetheless.

I was fine with things ending. With things being over. I wanted that. What they have done however is salt the ground on the previous story. Not only is that universe dead today but they have ruined any other stories, imagination and emotions it could generate in the future. That is not something I need to give them the oportunity to fix and forgive. By all rights most of us should have just burried the company and moved on. Giving them a second chance, the chance to make things right and fix what they have done. That is a gesture of love, not hatred. That is how we prove our fandom. Had any other gaming company pulled what they did I would have been upset for an hour or so, gotten over it then simply stoped buying their games for a long time. We are giving bioware a second chance.

[Bluefuse]

MadMrMalkav wrote...

firebreather19 wrote...

MadMrMalkav wrote...

firebreather19 wrote...

MadMrMalkav wrote...

AsheraII wrote...

The minute someone posts that he/she likes the endings, or even that he/she is okay with the endings, those who dislike the endings seem to take that as a personal attack. Nonsense like "you're stupid, you don't understand the Mass Effect IP" gets flung at them. I'm sorry, but to me it just seems that the haters who were previously trying to spew their garbage about SW:TOR have moved onto Mass Effect now. The haters at swtor went suspiciously quiet last week. Coincidence? Well, I simply don't believe in coincidence.

There's definitely some hate campaign against Bioware going on, and plenty of little children who should be too young to even buy this game tacked on to it to be with the "cool /v/ crowd".

Not really. I loved DA:2 despite its many gameplay and story flaws. It was still an enjyoable game. I still love SW:Tor and have played since the betta weeked. I have defended everything Bioware has ever done INCLUDING the day 1 DLC and Tali Shop as lazy/greedy but livable. However when they do something indefensible and that I feal is downright insulting to their fans such as the ending I have to join in and add my voice. Many of the others on the FB and forums of of similar mindset. These aren't angry childish haters trying to take down Bioware for some sinister reason, these are Bioware's msot devoted and loyal fans.

That's weird, because I'm pretty sure bioware's most devoted and loyal fans would probably think back to the previous 2 mass effect games, and the first 95% of mass effect 3, and assume since all of that was amazing, that maybe...just maybe...they know what they're doing, and that they should be allowed to finish what they started.

I would love to belive they know what they are doing. But up until now they have given us no evidence this wasn't what they wanted. If they break the silence and say something it might restore my face but thats the equivilant of saying that just because I love a person "Baby, its not what it looks like" is a trustworthy defence.

If you've been with them that long, then yes it is.

And stupid them for believing they had loyal and devoted fans who would at least give them the opportunity to conclude their story. Personally one of the worst things I feared about this game was that I'd get to the end and it'd be over, and that's it. Knowing there is most likely something else out there...maybe a real ending, maybe not...is pretty nice. Not because I need a real ending, but because I like to know there's more of the universe to explore.

ME3 is still the greatest game ever made, nonetheless.

I was fine with things ending. With things being over. I wanted that. What they have done however is salt the ground on the previous story. Not only is that universe dead today but they have ruined any other stories, imagination and emotions it could generate in the future. That is not something I need to give them the oportunity to fix and forgive. By all rights most of us should have just burried the company and moved on. Giving them a second chance, the chance to make things right and fix what they have done. That is a gesture of love, not hatred. That is how we prove our fandom. Had any other gaming company pulled what they did I would have been upset for an hour or so, gotten over it then simply stoped buying their games for a long time. We are giving bioware a second chance.

This. Game Over.

[Biotic Flash Kick]

We shouldn't. :DD

[Heather Cline]

The reason is because there is no logical way to defend the ending of ME3. ME3 uses circular logic and that logic can be broken, defeated and destroyed. It's been proven in real life that circular logic is junk logic and has no place in real world society. Because we have pointed out all these flaws with not only the endings but also the general game play and other things with ME3 the people who are being paid off by EA/Bioware to have these super perfect scores have to bash us because they have no way to defend the endings.

There is no logical reasoning for them to stand on to put the endings in a good light. As such they have to resort to personal attacks against those who hate it. Without these personal attacks to dehumanize us they have no foot to stand on, nothing to use as a defense against our attacks.

No the only way they can even fight back is to fight with insults, hurtful words and other things like that. It makes them bullies and if anyone seeing the news articles like from Moriarty with at least half a brain can see that they are just digging themselves a deeper hole by doing personal attacks instead of logically rebutting each and every point we the gamers have made.

Also if we stoop to their level they have won. It's what they want. They want us to stoop to their level so we lose any sympathy we've already garnered from the masses at large out in the world. Lose the support of websites like Forbes magazine and so on. If we attack them we become the bad guys and then we lose any momentum we have.

Basically put, DON'T attack them. Keep being logical, keep only addressing the issue. Let people like Moriarty act like fools and morons and idiots and let them lose any support from fans or people with half a brain. Because they will lose in the end.

Modifié par Heather Cline, 25 mars 2012 - 03:38 .