341 réponses à ce sujet

[Phydeaux314]

"Don't attempt to insult trolls. They'll drag you to their level, then beat you with experience."

[Area42T]

You act kind and civil to them so people can see just how truly pathetic most of these poor excuses for game reviewers are.

However honestly, they don't qualify as game reviewers to me, they seem more like lapdogs.

Modifié par Area42T, 17 mars 2012 - 11:24 .

[Arppis]

Severyx wrote...

Did the OP really just say "I think we should attack people who don't handle things in a way I like"?

Huh.

This thread shouldn't even be here. It's a complainer complaining about complainers. Good Lord.

[ThePasserby]

At the end of the day, it is not personal attacks, nor refraining from using personal attacks that matters. It is not using rational arguments that will make Bioware see the light. It is cold, hard cash. Bioware may not see it now, They may delude themselves into thinking that it will blow over. But if we stay true to our course, and refuse to buy anything more from them, they will see our way.

It won't be because of our gentle persuasion that they'll realise that with customers, there's only one rule. They need to feel it in their pockets. For my part, I've canceled my SWTOR subscription and let them know in the cancelation reason section why. We need to talk to them, yes, but not with words, but with money. Don't buy their products. Then they'll hear you loud and clear.

[Korhiann]

AlexXIV wrote...

The Almighty Ali wrote...

Because if we insult them then we're no better then them.
Right now they are trying to make us look bad, if we start to insult them and such then we're only proving them right. And that can't happen.

I don't feel the need to be better. We have the facts. We have the truth. And now we also need to be nicer to make it count? What kind of philosphy is this if you can only can get justice if you ask nice enough? We are the fans, paying customers. Not some bum from the street begging for charity.

You may not feel a need to be better, but that's what it's going to take if you want Bioware and other sites to actually listen and care about what we write and say, instead of just labeling us as whiners
We have facts and truths? Really? It's pretty dangerous putting yourself on such a high pedestal. This is a firm request, not a legal demand.
Justice? Isn't that just a wee bit overdramatic. Getting what you believe you paid for and wanting a game to improve isn't about justice.
Making derogatory remarks about homeless people won't help your argument.

Of course this doesn't mean we have to ask nicely i.e. no please and thank you's. We do however have to remain civil about it.

Modifié par Korhiann, 17 mars 2012 - 11:31 .

[AlexXIV]

The Almighty Ali wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

The Almighty Ali wrote...

Because if we insult them then we're no better then them.
Right now they are trying to make us look bad, if we start to insult them and such then we're only proving them right. And that can't happen.

I don't feel the need to be better. We have the facts. We have the truth. And now we also need to be nicer to make it count? What kind of philosphy is this if you can only can get justice if you ask nice enough? We are the fans, paying customers. Not some bum from the street begging for charity.

So you think you'll get your way by starting to insult those that don't agree with your views, rather then engage in a civil debate?

No I don't think that. But I think that I should have the right to slap someone who slaps me. Eye for an eye.

[The Almighty Ali]

AlexXIV wrote...

The Almighty Ali wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

The Almighty Ali wrote...

Because if we insult them then we're no better then them.
Right now they are trying to make us look bad, if we start to insult them and such then we're only proving them right. And that can't happen.

I don't feel the need to be better. We have the facts. We have the truth. And now we also need to be nicer to make it count? What kind of philosphy is this if you can only can get justice if you ask nice enough? We are the fans, paying customers. Not some bum from the street begging for charity.

So you think you'll get your way by starting to insult those that don't agree with your views, rather then engage in a civil debate?

No I don't think that. But I think that I should have the right to slap someone who slaps me. Eye for an eye.

And eye of an eye eventually leaves the whole world blind.

[CarGryph]

majormajormmajor wrote...

It bothers me how intellectually dishonest most conversations about the ending are in most places.

The people who hate the ending are attacking the ending itself, the writing of it, it's messages, etc. etc.

You get articles like that Gamefront one linked to above which point-for-point explain what was wrong with the ending and why they hate it.

I don't really see people with any kind of volume making attacks against people who like the ending, like "If you like this ending clearly you are an idiot" or anything. I'm not seeing those kinds of articles, I'm not seeing people post giant rants blaming fans for liking the ending.

Yet, conversely, you have articles like the one Colin Moriarty at IGN or Ben Kuchera at PA Report have done, essentially attacking people who hate the ending and questioning them personally. Instead of trying to defend the ending on its own merits, they resort to basically insults,  calling people entitled whiners who don't understand real sci-fi and just want happy endings with ice cream and cake.

This is what this PA comic is doing too, and it's dishonest and lazy. Gabe's newspost earlier this week tried to address people's actual  criticisms with the ending, but it was still full of attacking the people, not the argument.

I think it's pretty telling when one side is critical of the material, and the other side is critical of the people.

You have my full support. Nobody (including fans, developers and journalists) discussing the matter should insult fans and developers, just tell what you dislike about the "ending".

Hold the line.

Modifié par CarGryph, 17 mars 2012 - 11:29 .

[majormajormmajor]

Severyx wrote...

Did the OP really just say "I think we should attack people who don't handle things in a way I like"?

Given that is how such people have been operating from the beginning- we are very fully justified in repaying them in kind.

[EsterCloat]

The Almighty Ali wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

The Almighty Ali wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

The Almighty Ali wrote...

Because if we insult them then we're no better then them.
Right now they are trying to make us look bad, if we start to insult them and such then we're only proving them right. And that can't happen.

I don't feel the need to be better. We have the facts. We have the truth. And now we also need to be nicer to make it count? What kind of philosphy is this if you can only can get justice if you ask nice enough? We are the fans, paying customers. Not some bum from the street begging for charity.

So you think you'll get your way by starting to insult those that don't agree with your views, rather then engage in a civil debate?

No I don't think that. But I think that I should have the right to slap someone who slaps me. Eye for an eye.

And eye of an eye eventually leaves the whole world blind.

Man, you beat me to it.

[Syokhan]

Because, simply put: don't stoop down to their level. We're better than this.

(I'm not talking about the defenders in general, only the ones who resort to personal attacks)

[lex0r11]

AlexXIV wrote...

The Almighty Ali wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

The Almighty Ali wrote...

Because if we insult them then we're no better then them.
Right now they are trying to make us look bad, if we start to insult them and such then we're only proving them right. And that can't happen.

I don't feel the need to be better. We have the facts. We have the truth. And now we also need to be nicer to make it count? What kind of philosphy is this if you can only can get justice if you ask nice enough? We are the fans, paying customers. Not some bum from the street begging for charity.

So you think you'll get your way by starting to insult those that don't agree with your views, rather then engage in a civil debate?

No I don't think that. But I think that I should have the right to slap someone who slaps me. Eye for an eye.

do you really think they would care? the will thank you for it.
this is the internet, insults are meaningless, especially for people who use flame to convey their opinion.

eye fo an eye is something for outside the internet.

[AlexXIV]

Korhiann wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

The Almighty Ali wrote...

Because if we insult them then we're no better then them.
Right now they are trying to make us look bad, if we start to insult them and such then we're only proving them right. And that can't happen.

I don't feel the need to be better. We have the facts. We have the truth. And now we also need to be nicer to make it count? What kind of philosphy is this if you can only can get justice if you ask nice enough? We are the fans, paying customers. Not some bum from the street begging for charity.

You may not feel a need to be better, but that's what it's going to take if you want Bioware and other sites to actually listen and care about what we write and say, instead of just labeling us as whiners
We have facts and truths? Really? It's pretty dangerous putting yourself on such a high pedestal. This is a firm request, not a legal demand.
Justice? Isn't that just a wee bit overdramatic. Getting what you believe you paid for and wanting a game to improve isn't about justice.
Making derogatory remarks about homeless people won't help your argument.

I paid for a proper ending to the trilogy. That's not what I got. I don't even ask for the whole game to improve. To make it the game I want it'd need to be 10 hours longer and not have half of the people you have met prior disappear or actually have to talk to people to get quests like in ME1/2 and not just get them on the fly by from overhearing someone chatter while you run through the only quest hub, the Citadel. No I am disappointed with the game in general, even if it is maybe a good game still. However the ending is kind of the last insult.

[WastelanderTim]

No need to insult anyone, just ignore them and they'll eventually get banned or go away.

[Umbrellamage]

majormajormmajor wrote...

Severyx wrote...

Did the OP really just say "I think we should attack people who don't handle things in a way I like"?

Given that is how such people have been operating from the beginning- we are very fully justified in repaying them in kind.

But we don't repay them in kind, get this scorched earth revenge vision out of your head.  By resorting to personal attacks we just weaken our own position, while their failed attacks against us makes our position stronger and weakens their own.

Modifié par Umbrellamage, 17 mars 2012 - 11:33 .

[AlexXIV]

lex0r11 wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

The Almighty Ali wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

The Almighty Ali wrote...

Because if we insult them then we're no better then them.
Right now they are trying to make us look bad, if we start to insult them and such then we're only proving them right. And that can't happen.

I don't feel the need to be better. We have the facts. We have the truth. And now we also need to be nicer to make it count? What kind of philosphy is this if you can only can get justice if you ask nice enough? We are the fans, paying customers. Not some bum from the street begging for charity.

So you think you'll get your way by starting to insult those that don't agree with your views, rather then engage in a civil debate?

No I don't think that. But I think that I should have the right to slap someone who slaps me. Eye for an eye.

do you really think they would care? the will thank you for it.
this is the internet, insults are meaningless, especially for people who use flame to convey their opinion.

eye fo an eye is something for outside the internet.

I already said I will stay civil. I just don't like that I have to to get what I paid for. So that's the last time I paid the full price for a Bioware game, you can be sure of that.

[OverdrivenI]

 Did anyone see the student protests in London for the uni fees rise? Well the entire thing was peaceful and made a good point...until a few thousand strong group broke off and trashed the Tory Headquaters. That allowed the Government and news channels to just go 'O hey look these students are violent, lazy and cant be civil so we can just ignore them'. Despite the fact the vast majority were civil.

Being civil is key. As soon as you react with insults ect...you give everyone a reason to ignore you and that is detrimental to what we are trying to do.

Modifié par OverdrivenI, 17 mars 2012 - 11:37 .

[lex0r11]

AlexXIV wrote...

lex0r11 wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

The Almighty Ali wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

The Almighty Ali wrote...

Because if we insult them then we're no better then them.
Right now they are trying to make us look bad, if we start to insult them and such then we're only proving them right. And that can't happen.

I don't feel the need to be better. We have the facts. We have the truth. And now we also need to be nicer to make it count? What kind of philosphy is this if you can only can get justice if you ask nice enough? We are the fans, paying customers. Not some bum from the street begging for charity.

So you think you'll get your way by starting to insult those that don't agree with your views, rather then engage in a civil debate?

No I don't think that. But I think that I should have the right to slap someone who slaps me. Eye for an eye.

do you really think they would care? the will thank you for it.
this is the internet, insults are meaningless, especially for people who use flame to convey their opinion.

eye fo an eye is something for outside the internet.

I already said I will stay civil. I just don't like that I have to to get what I paid for. So that's the last time I paid the full price for a Bioware game, you can be sure of that.

now that i can support.

[The Almighty Ali]

AlexXIV wrote...
I already said I will stay civil. I just don't like that I have to to get what I paid for. So that's the last time I paid the full price for a Bioware game, you can be sure of that.

Don't worry, we know you're frustrated, We all are.
It baffles all of us that such endings was tossed in and someone thought "Yeah, that'll do. Time for lunch"

[Montana]

Why should we refrain from personal attacks on defenders of the ending?

Because we have a problem with the ending, not with the people who like the ending (I'm happy that someone likes it, even if I can't imagine who they could).

If someone resorts to insults and personal attack, they've already lost.
They've regressed to kindergarden tactics and shows that their viewpoint can't be defended by discussion.

Imagine the following situation:
Forumposter 1: The ending is bad because X, and it contradicts what X says in ME1.
Forumposter 2: You're wrong! And you're a poopyhead!

Which one of them looks foolish and which one looks like he really has something to say.

Let them troll and insult us, it just makes us stronger, makes our viewpoint more valid since they can't come up with an intelligent response.

Meanwhile, We will hold the line!

[FoxShadowblade]

If they came at me intending to physically harm me, I would shoot them.

If their best defense of the ending is to ignore logic and call me entitled and spoiled, I will laugh at them, give them a nice little speech about being childish, and move on. If they can't defend their side, it's simply not my problem.

[Umbrellamage]

OverdrivenI wrote...

 Did anyone see the student protests in London for the uni fees rise? Well the entire thing was peaceful and made a good point...until a few thousand strong group broke off and trashed the Tory Headquaters. That allowed the Government and news channels to just go 'O hey look these students are violent, lazy and cant be civil so we can just ignore'.

Being civil is key. As soon as you react with insults ect...you give everyone a reason to ignore you and that is detrimental to what we are trying to do.

Great point.  Look at MLKjr, look at Ghandi.  If they started attacking their opponents their movements would have failed utterly and have been significantly more bloody than they were.  The occupy movement started fine, but then anarchists started trashing buildings and turning violent, lost them significant support, now they're mostly an afterthought.

[Korhiann]

AlexXIV wrote...

Korhiann wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

The Almighty Ali wrote...

Because if we insult them then we're no better then them.
Right now they are trying to make us look bad, if we start to insult them and such then we're only proving them right. And that can't happen.

I don't feel the need to be better. We have the facts. We have the truth. And now we also need to be nicer to make it count? What kind of philosphy is this if you can only can get justice if you ask nice enough? We are the fans, paying customers. Not some bum from the street begging for charity.

You may not feel a need to be better, but that's what it's going to take if you want Bioware and other sites to actually listen and care about what we write and say, instead of just labeling us as whiners
We have facts and truths? Really? It's pretty dangerous putting yourself on such a high pedestal. This is a firm request, not a legal demand.
Justice? Isn't that just a wee bit overdramatic. Getting what you believe you paid for and wanting a game to improve isn't about justice.
Making derogatory remarks about homeless people won't help your argument.

I paid for a proper ending to the trilogy. That's not what I got. I don't even ask for the whole game to improve. To make it the game I want it'd need to be 10 hours longer and not have half of the people you have met prior disappear or actually have to talk to people to get quests like in ME1/2 and not just get them on the fly by from overhearing someone chatter while you run through the only quest hub, the Citadel. No I am disappointed with the game in general, even if it is maybe a good game still. However the ending is kind of the last insult.

You paid for a working game, which you got. That's where your rights end, except of course if what you bought wasn't what was actually advertised.
What you can do is simply to make it clear that you will not continue to be a customer unless changes, for the better, are made. It's not so much a boycott as it's simple capitalism, when they are no longer able to supply your demand you stop buying. Of course you have every right as a paying customer to voice your opinion about said product, which you should. Don't ever take any crap from companies, make sure they know that without us they wouldn't exist. 
You really want them to make the game 10 hours longer? Sorry, that won't happen. You want the game to mimic the previous installments more so than it does? Sorry, won't happen. That's a design choice.
Pick your battles.

Modifié par Korhiann, 17 mars 2012 - 11:49 .

[Qutayba]

Not that this is an issue on the same scale as his, but take a page from Gandhi. He truly understood the power of positive press. The idea behind passive resistance isn't just moral, it's tactical, and only possible in the era of the modern news cycle.

By keeping your protest civil and peaceful, you claim the high road. So when the Destructoids of the world come along, they look like total asses for mocking the idea of charity. If you strike back at them in kind, you lose that tactical advantage. Eventually the press and the public will be more appalled at the trolling party and more sympathetic to the peaceful protesters.

It's hard to hold the line, as Gandhi himself found out. He was assassinated by people who decided that inter-communal strife, and not firm, but civil discourse, was the best way to get what they wanted.

[Qutayba]

Korhiann wrote...

You paid for a working game, which you got. That's where your rights end, except of course if what you bought wasn't what was actually advertised.
What you can do is simply to make it clear that you will not continue to be a customer unless changes, for the better, are made. It's not so much a boycott as it's simple capitalism, when they are no longer able to supply your demand you stop buying. Of course you have every right as a paying customer to voice your opinion about said product, which you should. Don't ever take any crap from companies, make sure they know that without us they wouldn't exist. 
You really want them to make the game 10 hours longer? Sorry, that won't happen. You want the game to mimic the previous installments more so than it does? Sorry, won't happen. That's a design choice.
Pick your battles.

For me, at least, it has nothing to do with rights (although I certainly have the right to ask for a new ending, I don't have the right to get it, you're absolutely right about rights, right? ).  At this point, what I find more intriguing is the simple idea of a fan-inspired content on this scale.  Video games, with their patches, expansion packs, dlc's, and modding tools, are unlike any other art form.  Design choices can evolve and change in ways that paintings usually can't, barring a papal edict.

Maybe you like the endings, but I don't think the petition for a new ending is quite as outlandish as you make it out to be.  Not only is there plenty of precedent, but this medium seems particularly suited for this kind of development.  I hold no illusions about our chances, but this is a really exciting idea, in my opinion.

BioWare used to provide modding tools like Bethesda still does.  It's a shame.  That would solve the entire problem right there.  Think forcing you to choose between Paarthunax and the Blades is a bad design choice? - presto chango!  Now you can have your dragon and eat it. too!

Modifié par Qutayba, 17 mars 2012 - 12:39 .