341 réponses à ce sujet

[GnusmasTHX]

OP is ****ing hilarious.

I can't even stop laughing.

Oh god what is air.

This is a bit, though, right? I'm getting punked.

Would've been funnier if he said it like he was an elcor though.

Modifié par GnusmasTHX, 17 mars 2012 - 12:38 .

[Lugaidster]

To the ones that think "an eye for an eye" is a valid strategy. Please don't be selfish. Every time one from this movement retaliates this movement loses. Don't go there. Don't make us *all* look bad.

[Kyneris]

Talogrungi wrote...

If you attack the person rather than the argument, you've already lost.

Agreed, nothing is gained, nothing relevent is added to the conversation. If people don't listen, just stop talking to them because ad hominem attacks say more about the person making those attacks than by the person who is attacked.

[BaladasDemnevanni]

Talogrungi wrote...

If you attack the person rather than the argument, you've already lost.

Absolutely this. It should take barely five seconds' worth of thought to realize this.

[Samuel_Valkyrie]

First of all, I want to refer to another thread on this forum, concerning Astro turfing: a method where companies hire people to come to forums, and deliberately either advertise products, or disrupt the fanbase. I find it curious that a person who became a member less than a month ago, take this position you take.

But, assuming you are indeed just a normal member, and assuming your position is shared by others, I'll give you my two cents:

First, we are fighitng a battle at two fronts: namely, against Bioware, and against the ublic opinion. The latter assumes that we are just a bunch of fans, and fans are entitled, hard to please, whiney, etc. Yelling names would only conform to that stereotype, which would mean we would loose that front, which, in turn, would mean we would stand less strong in the fight against Bioware.

(For the record, I'm using war metaphors as a rethorical device: we're not fighitng against Bioware, but merely voicing our opinions, in order to implement change)

Second, our battle isn't with other fans. If they like the ending, that is fine. They aren't in fact, hurting us. Maybe they disagree, but there is no need to convince them, sine they aren't part of our fight. If they are willing to join our cause, great, but if not, that is fine too. We do not need an 'us against them' mentality, because that isn't the kind of fight we are in.

Insulting other fans, in the end, would only cause harm to us. So, we don't.

[Y3Y00]

I chose Control and loved the ending, except for the crash scene which was gay, but I was hoping to show us Shepard in some high-existence form, controlling the Reapers, and the indoctrination theories actually make me hate the ending, because I feel like I made the wrong choice. Damn you, community! The bond scene with Liara was perfect, didn't watch the romance, irrelevant, I know.

[AlexXIV]

Korhiann wrote...


You paid for a working game, which you got. That's where your rights end, except of course if what you bought wasn't what was actually advertised.

It wasn't what was advertised, neither was DA2. They could as well have given me Tetris instead.

[Leonia]

There has been plenty of insulting going on on both sides but as the mods have said, follow the site rules or face the consequences.

Personally I have been called all sorts of names for supporting the endings and while I have my reservations about the type of people who are complaining, it would be unwise to mount an argument based on ad hominem attacks.

In other words, keep it civil, regardless of what you believe.

[wright1978]

Stay firm but civil and rebut their opinion with your own.

[Carnage752]

Well OP, acting like a ****head gets you nowhere in things like this. BSN needs to learn that if they want to get anywhere with these endings, they need to act civil, but dedicated to change these screwups.

BSN needs to...
HOLD THE LINE!

[leeboi2]

How immature do you want to be? Maybe people do actually like the endings...

[Korhiann]

Qutayba wrote...

Korhiann wrote...

You paid for a working game, which you got. That's where your rights end, except of course if what you bought wasn't what was actually advertised.
What you can do is simply to make it clear that you will not continue to be a customer unless changes, for the better, are made. It's not so much a boycott as it's simple capitalism, when they are no longer able to supply your demand you stop buying. Of course you have every right as a paying customer to voice your opinion about said product, which you should. Don't ever take any crap from companies, make sure they know that without us they wouldn't exist. 
You really want them to make the game 10 hours longer? Sorry, that won't happen. You want the game to mimic the previous installments more so than it does? Sorry, won't happen. That's a design choice.
Pick your battles.

For me, at least, it has nothing to do with rights (although I certainly have the right to ask for a new ending, I don't have the right to get it, you're absolutely right about rights, right? ).  At this point, what I find more intriguing is the simple idea of a fan-inspired content on this scale.  Video games, with their patches, expansion packs, dlc's, and modding tools, are unlike any other art form.  Design choices can evolve and change in ways that paintings usually can't, barring a papal edict.

Maybe you like the endings, but I don't think the petition for a new ending is quite as outlandish as you make it out to be.  Not only is there plenty of precedent, but this medium seems particularly suited for this kind of development.  I hold no illusions about our chances, but this is a really exciting idea, in my opinion.

BioWare used to provide modding tools like Bethesda still does.  It's a shame.  That would solve the entire problem right there.  Think forcing you to choose between Paarthunax and the Blades is a bad design choice? - presto chango!  Now you can have your dragon and eat it. too!

Which is why the comparison with other forms of art is silly at best. Games can indeed be changed at any point in time if the developers wish it so, well within the means of the engine.
CD Projekt is a good example of a developer listening and making changes, within reason.

Wait just a tick... You actually think I like the endings? That I don't think fans have the right to request a change for the better? *Takes off dueling glove* You have offended my honour, sir. Like I wrote we have the rights of a paying customer, we don't have any legal rights, besides a working product that functions as advertised, as some people seem to think or the very least make it sound like we do. In other words if we don't want to be seen as "entitled" brats we should do our best not to act like it. This doesn't mean we shouldn't complain about the things we don't like or make requests. We payed for it so we damn well have the right to complain about it, in a constructive way of course, and if they want us to continue to be customers they better listen to us.
But people can't, shouldn't, make wild demands like changing major parts of the game or adding in many more hours of gameplay for free just because it felt too short.

Bethesda is one of the few companies which has really seen the importance of a great modding community, which is also basicly the ONLY reason I kept buying Bethesda RPG's after Oblivion. Something I don't like? I'll just wait for a mod to change it.
Of course not all games can or should be moddable, but more games should really take advantage of modding communities and more than one modder has since been hired for their fantastic work.

Modifié par Korhiann, 17 mars 2012 - 01:09 .

[Pathero]

I agree, just because someoen says 'you're acting like a child' doesn't mean you should justify the comment.

I'm confused by the ending and I do think it is riddled with plot holes which aren't as prevalent as the rest of the game which is an indication of something (change of writer? last minute problem? I dunno).

There have been some expertly crafted analysis of the ending (pointing out plot holes, indoctrination theory) but far to many people are being spiteful and hurtful about it (personally, far too many can be any number greater than zero) on both sides.

[CroGamer002]

suusuuu wrote...

we won't get far if we start insulting people.

[K_Tabris]

Because refraining from personal attacks is the polite, human thing to do. Don't stoop to the level of the media. After all, I wonder how many of them actually experienced the game before writing a review.

[Trakarg]

You hate the ending.  You shouldn't hate people who like the ending.  Even if you do, it doesn't mean you have to demonstrate your hatred.

[xxZealouSocitYxx]

You're not going to win the war by insulting people. You just have to be the bigger man when compared to Colin and his followers. Let them think what they think whilst still believing in what you think.

[Ruari]

Which side of a debate do you think looks better from the outside? The one trying to act mature and outline their argument, or the side childishly screaming insults while plugging their ears to avoid hearing the other side?

Look, let's be honest. We all have our opinion of the ending. It's unlikely we'll change each others minds. This is more just to see who can make the best argument to Bioware.

[Korhiann]

AlexXIV wrote...

Korhiann wrote...


You paid for a working game, which you got. That's where your rights end, except of course if what you bought wasn't what was actually advertised.

It wasn't what was advertised, neither was DA2. They could as well have given me Tetris instead.

Besides the rather suspicious way of counting the 16/17 endings and the whole 1 day DLC issue we did get what we paid for, obviously it wasn't what we wanted.
DA2 was what we paid for, it's not a crime to only spend about a year on development... Although there probably should be some regulations about rushed products and refunds. However it most certainly wasn't what I wanted and subsequently I will almost certainly not be buying DA3, since I no longer see the series as being worth the price.

[AtlasMickey]

Well let me stand up and be counted, then. I love my ending. I don't just accept it or defend it. I love it.

I love the Mass Effect series 100%, beginning-to-end, top-to-bottom.

I don't blame anyone for not liking the ending. Right now I attribute it to their not having thought through the moral implications of transhumanism and the existence of strong-AI, which is rather a lot to ask a person, because those things are not yet a present in our lives. I've been thinking about the technological singularity pretty much every day for the past seven years and for the first couple years it was very difficult and genuinely scary and disturbing. But I found myself very persuaded by the possibility that it may happen in my lifetime, that there is no god who will save us nor angels to protect us, and that the only thing that will get us through it is our intelligence and compassion.

Commander Shepard exemplifies that intelligence and compassion. My high EMS Synthesis ending is very powerful and inspiring. I love it.

Mass Effect 3 is my favorite game. I'm a fan. 

Modifié par AtlasMickey, 17 mars 2012 - 01:12 .

[Verit]

I'm disgusted by the way some people and more importantly certain gaming media have attacked the people that dislike the endings with petty and baseless remarks, but why should we drop down to their level? The fact that certain websites have repeatedly posted articles to attack and ridicule us means we're doing something right. It's also good to see articles from websites, and more importantly actual fans, that support us. If anything we need to stick to discussing why we're so disappointed with the endings instead of resorting to personal attacks ourselves. In the end the only ones that really needs to hear us are Bioware and EA. I still have some hope they'll understand our reasoning.

[garf]

Qutayba wrote...

Just refrain from personal attacks, period. Call them out for their trolling when they do it, but call out those who troll against the defenders, too. I've seen plenty of sincere posts defending the endings get hijacked by insults. We don't need an orthodoxy machine. Our arguments stand on their own two feet, and so can theirs. Rush Limbaugh should not be our model for civil discourse.

Hear Hear ... Though I confess there have been times when I wish I'd taken a deep breath before I hit enter. When you are insulted (unjustly you believe) the natural instinct is to lash out in return.

[Persephone]

Because valid arguments will support your "cause" while throwing tantrums will gain you naught but contempt.

[Pathero]

AtlasMickey wrote...

Well let me stand up and be counted, then. I love my ending. I don't just accept it or defend it. I love it.

I love the Mass Effect series 100%, beginning-to-end, top-to-bottom.

I don't blame anyone for not liking the ending. Right now I attribute it to their not having thought through the moral implications of transhumanism and the existence of strong-AI, which is rather a lot to ask a person, because those things are not yet a present in our lives. I've been thinking about the technological singularity pretty much every day for the past seven years and for the first couple years it was very difficult and genuinely scary and disturbing. But I found myself very persuaded by the possibility that it may happen in my lifetime, that there is no god who will save us nor angels to protect us, and that the only thing that will get us through it is our intelligence and compassion.

Commander Shepard exemplifies that intelligence and compassion. My high EMS Synthesis ending is very powerful and inspiring. I love it.

Mass Effect 3 is my favorite game. I'm a fan. 

I love ME3, I can jive with the endings too, but given the... errors that have been identified I find the indoctrination explanation more fufilling and as valid.  Each to their own is the rule of the day tbh.

PS I also love the taste of Kiwi fruit skins.

[garf]

majormajormmajor wrote...

It bothers me how intellectually dishonest most conversations about the ending are in most places.

The people who hate the ending are attacking the ending itself, the writing of it, it's messages, etc. etc.

You get articles like that Gamefront one linked to above which point-for-point explain what was wrong with the ending and why they hate it.

I don't really see people with any kind of volume making attacks against people who like the ending, like "If you like this ending clearly you are an idiot" or anything. I'm not seeing those kinds of articles, I'm not seeing people post giant rants blaming fans for liking the ending.

Yet, conversely, you have articles like the one Colin Moriarty at IGN or Ben Kuchera at PA Report have done, essentially attacking people who hate the ending and questioning them personally. Instead of trying to defend the ending on its own merits, they resort to basically insults,  calling people entitled whiners who don't understand real sci-fi and just want happy endings with ice cream and cake.

This is what this PA comic is doing too, and it's dishonest and lazy. Gabe's newspost earlier this week tried to address people's actual  criticisms with the ending, but it was still full of attacking the people, not the argument.

I think it's pretty telling when one side is critical of the material, and the other side is critical of the people.

Your statement contains the answer. Of course we should refrain no matter how tempting it is. further we should call out those who support us using the tactics of the opposition as NOT HELPING.

Because your last line says it all, as long as that paradigm holds ... eventually we win. The 'haters' are discrediting themselves.