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Why I believe the ending is correct


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#251
Meltemph

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vertigo72 wrote...

 
People pick the details but don't see the whole picture. So, there is how I understand the whole story and why I think the ending is very good:


You, Shepard, are here to solve a big problem that you don't even understand before the end. Which is this problem?

The main problem of the ME Universe is that organic life creates syntetic life then tries to destroy it. Always. It's like an axiom in this ME Universe, you have to trust Reapers (and Bioware writers) on that. Syntetic life is like organic life, but it is not limited by the body. Most important thing it is immortal. So any AI can evolve as much as they can, because they don't have time constraints. Because of that they are immensely superior. Also, they don't have emotions, at least not much. So we have this hopeless and very very ancient war, that's our problem.


(Don't say that you didn't see that coming because you fight syntetics in all 3 ME games. Reapers, Geth, husks, indoctrinated people, ...)


AIs are like Legion, they don't really need to fight but they will protect their life. So some ancient AI found a solution: a way to unify synthetic and organic life. The problem with this solution is that AIs don't want to unify themselves with some retards (would you like to unify yourself with your pocket calculator?) Also, they don't want to make a choice themselves, maybe they don't have consensus or something. Also, they don't want to force organics.


So, they gave organics a test: evolve enogh and you will have a choice what to do. To pass the test you have to build a big stick, put it on the Citadel and press a button. That's all. Then you will have 3 choices. You have 50000 years to do it, now go and evolve. Every 50k years we (Reapers) will come and give you an exam. When you fail we will copy your software and some DNA into a new reaper then use you for some purpose. 

The Citadel, the little boy, is like the examiner who will judge you. That's why it doesn't inferfere.


And Shepard was the first organic to do it, unify everybody to build the stick and arrive to the exam to press a button.


About 3 choices: it's a part of the exam,  only one choice is correct. 


If you choose to destroy or control the Reapers, then the problem will rise again sooner or later. Synthetics will always evolve into AI and the war will start again, eventually new Reapers will be created and so on. 


If you choose to unify both races then there will be no war anymore and only one form of life that will inherit best parts of both forms. Something like immortal people with all their emotions.


So, to ensure that you really really gave the answer you have right to only one answer, after you die. (If you don't choose you die too, as every 50000 years)


That's my view of this story and that's why I believe the ending is perfect, despite some minor problems, like no helmets...


Sigh...  One of these days. ANYWHO

That does not make sense. The fact that the reapers exist means that there were "cycles(or lack there of)" in fact that allowed them to hit this peak, the reapers are proof they are wrong. They are essentially saying, we dont trust any other race to get to our point, because we dont know what they are going to do, so we kill them. 

Their premise that all life will create machines that eventually kill organics is directly against their very existence. 

Who do you think made the reapers? The existence of the reapers means that organics dont always create synthetics that destroy organics... How can you argue otherwise when the proof is staring at you and saying it isnt possible? 

Either the reapers had a beginning from a creator race and that the creator race DECIDED to do this or the Reapers are in fact the cycle.  There is no other way to explain it. 

This is essetnially what the reapers are arguing:  
You have to create a singularity to prevent a singularity... That doesn't even make sense. 

It is infact not a logical conclusion unless the conclusion is for self preservations sake(and only for the reapers self preservation).  The existence of itself(reapers) should be proof that outside of self preservation, it's not logic that is having them do this but is fear and imagination.  Otherwise you are arguing that the only way to prevent a singularity from destroying the galaxy is to have a singularity destroy possible singularites.  IF you dont see the flaw in this line of thinking...Umm well I guess that ship has sailed.  At worst there will be another singularity doing this(A massive theory) or at best you just wipped out the cycle for a very, very, long time or forever.

I gotta say though... I dont know why anyone cares whether the geth or any other AI is rebellious matters. The reapers are proof of where organic life will lead if left alone, the problem is, it may kill a few civilizations along the way(which is still preferable to getting wiped out by the reapers), the thing is though, if anything gets to that point, the reapers are ****ed even they admit it... The argument is, do you want the reapers, or do you want to figure out if the "next" reapers will ever come along or not, and  how will it(The galaxy) be different.

It is literally a choice of survival(Us or the reapers) and the willingness to find out what will be different.

#252
Cobra's_back

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vertigo72 wrote...

xeNNN wrote...

vertigo72 wrote...

irishScott3 wrote...

vertigo72 wrote...

Doctor Uburian wrote...

But that's not what they promised.


What they promised?


*sigh*
http://www.gameinfor...x=2&PageIndex=2

With the ending in Mass Effect 2, there were so many different
variables and possibilities for the outcome and what could happen. As
players reached the end, they started comparing notes and trying to
figure out how it worked. A few months after it came out, we ran a chart in the magazine
that showed the layout of how to get the different endings and how
things happened. Is that same type of complexity built into the ending
of Mass Effect 3?


Yeah, and I’d say much more so, because we have the ability to build
the endings out in a way that we don’t have to worry about eventually
tying them back together somewhere. This story arc is coming to an end
with this game. That means the endings can be a lot more different. At
this point we’re taking into account so many decisions that you’ve made
as a player and reflecting a lot of that stuff. It’s not even in any way
like the traditional game endings, where you can say how many endings
there are or whether you got ending A, B, or C.

It’s more like there are some really obvious things that are
different and then lots and lots of smaller things, lots of things about
who lives and who dies, civilizations that rose and fell, all the way
down to individual characters. That becomes the state of where you left
your galaxy. The endings have a lot more sophistication and variety in
them. It would be interesting to see if somebody could put together a
chart for that. Even with Mass Effect 2’s...



Ending of ME2 was very simple: you destroy the Collector base or not. It wasn't even a blue or red answer. I don't see any diffence. And you can also loose people in ME3, i lost Tali.





indeed mass effect 2 was a simple ending but it was clear and made sense as by the end of mass effect 2 you were left with the 2 choices you knew youd have to make through out the game which was destroy it or keep up as there was sufficient build up and momentum to it (even if it was pretty basic), what he means is that because they envolved colours its not part of the problem when a choice is clearly paragon but mark with renegade colours with an illogical consequence which makes no sense. yes they had reaper code blahblahbalh but it doesnt just effect the geth it effect all technology but yeah the endings are messed up and many people including myself have listed reasons why and they continue to mount up. 

PS: according to the mass effect 3 universe ... you do lose people yes.... everyone dies >.> also the mass effect 2 ending wasnt even a happy ending it was more of a temporary victory feeling but it was still good enough, mass effect 3 however.....  jeez.







I think you nailed the problem. The people are angry because Shep dies. Shep dies implies they lost. Critical mission failure. In my opinion it's not true in this case, Shepard dies and you win. 



No. Disagree. The game was pretty good until the end. Mistakes in the end caused speculations. Poor editing.
 
I expected Shepard and all his crew to die saving Earth. The main mission was Earth. 

Check out how many fans wanted the indoctrination theory.

#253
sadako

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Silveralen wrote...

vertigo72 wrote...

I think you nailed the problem. The people are angry because Shep dies. Shep dies implies they lost. Critical mission failure. In my opinion it's not true in this case, Shepard dies and you win. 


People are angry because we were promised an ending of compelxity and depth. Someone posted the quote where he said we would have more than a simple A, B, or C choice at the end, and then they gave us that exactly. They gave us something they specifically promised us they wouldn't, and took away the impact of our choices up to that point. IF they had left the endings more open, we could infur what happened based on our choices. That';d be fine. If they ahd tailored the endings to match our choices, that'd be fine. Instead they devalued the entire 120+ game, and gave us three choices, all of which completely nullified many of the important descions we made. Curing the geophage, keeping wrex alive instead of wreave, making peace between the geth and quarians, Saving the Rachni, etc. Hell does saving the collector base or destroying it even have an effect on the game?

It'd be like ME3 being turned into a racing game. It'd be the complete opposite of what we expected and what we were told would be delivered, so of course we are disppointed. It doesn't matter if it is the best damn racing game ever, we still won't be happy. In a game about choices and cosquences, the devalued every choice made and removed the consquences.


Indeed, and someone actually compiled the promises (not me)
The links are on my sig.

#254
Genera1Nemesis

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sadako wrote...

Genera1Nemesis wrote...

There's no denying that at all. Even those of us who find it to be a decent ending can agree that we didn't get enough closure for all the characters we had grown to love.


Yeah, it took a fan named flammenpanzer 11 days to come up with 3 closure FMVs that's loads better than the Stargazer ending. Now this is bittersweet melancholic ending with closure. Not Grandpa Bioware + winter sky fmv.

social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/355/index/10124402/1#10125057

For some of the fans that loved the ending, we never even got closure for our LIs, and that's an acceptable ending? I can't believe this!


You're just confirming the point that I made.

#255
sadako

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Genera1Nemesis wrote...

sadako wrote...

Genera1Nemesis wrote...

There's no denying that at all. Even those of us who find it to be a decent ending can agree that we didn't get enough closure for all the characters we had grown to love.


Yeah, it took a fan named flammenpanzer 11 days to come up with 3 closure FMVs that's loads better than the Stargazer ending. Now this is bittersweet melancholic ending with closure. Not Grandpa Bioware + winter sky fmv.

social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/355/index/10124402/1#10125057

For some of the fans that loved the ending, we never even got closure for our LIs, and that's an acceptable ending? I can't believe this!


You're just confirming the point that I made.


Indeed I am confirming it. With sample videos of how closure with the LI should have been. Even if I didn't see those blue babies Liara made, implying it was enough.

Too bad that it took a fan to give me closure, and not bioware.

#256
Wolven_Soul

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vertigo72 wrote...

anlk92 wrote...

vertigo72 wrote...

The main problem of the ME Universe is that organic life creates syntetic life then tries to destroy it. Always. It's like an axiom in this ME Universe, you have to trust Reapers (and Bioware writers) on that. 


Wrong. Genocidal starchilds are the main problem of the ME Universe.

So what you're saying is that they can feed us whatever bs they want at the last minutes of the story despite the fact that there are many things contradicting it and we should just be ok with it. I'm sure you'll understand if the majority of players are not willing to do that.

815Sox wrote...

Yes. This is pretty much how l look at it. I have explained this time and time again. You essentially spread Shepards essence throughout the universe, have his energy serve as the basis for a new DNA and usher in the next evolution of life.

No big deal.


Yeah, no big deal:wizard:




This is not a real child. Reaper's boss is a software, don't have a body. He took a friendly face from Shep' memories to create a representation of itself, an avatar. It's like in Neuromancer or Solaris or other scifi books. He could took his mother, Tali, whatever.


Friendly face?  Shepherd has been having nightmares of that friendly face.

#257
Genera1Nemesis

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sadako wrote...

Silveralen wrote...

vertigo72 wrote...

I think you nailed the problem. The people are angry because Shep dies. Shep dies implies they lost. Critical mission failure. In my opinion it's not true in this case, Shepard dies and you win. 


People are angry because we were promised an ending of compelxity and depth. Someone posted the quote where he said we would have more than a simple A, B, or C choice at the end, and then they gave us that exactly. They gave us something they specifically promised us they wouldn't, and took away the impact of our choices up to that point. IF they had left the endings more open, we could infur what happened based on our choices. That';d be fine. If they ahd tailored the endings to match our choices, that'd be fine. Instead they devalued the entire 120+ game, and gave us three choices, all of which completely nullified many of the important descions we made. Curing the geophage, keeping wrex alive instead of wreave, making peace between the geth and quarians, Saving the Rachni, etc. Hell does saving the collector base or destroying it even have an effect on the game?

It'd be like ME3 being turned into a racing game. It'd be the complete opposite of what we expected and what we were told would be delivered, so of course we are disppointed. It doesn't matter if it is the best damn racing game ever, we still won't be happy. In a game about choices and cosquences, the devalued every choice made and removed the consquences.


Indeed, and someone actually compiled the promises (not me)
The links are on my sig.


In defense of those promises (more as devils advocate and not because I whoeheartedly agree) is that a work in progress changes as the writer/ creator continues expanding the story. What you may have wanted to be the end may not look anything like the one you end up writing.

Also, I find it kinda funny that when the script was 'leaked' and people couldn;t help themselves from reading it then complained that they knew too much Bioware listened and changed the ending. Now some of those same people are on here telling them to change it again...terrible precedent being set.

#258
vertigo72

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Wolven_Soul wrote...

vertigo72 wrote...

pharsti wrote...

You can read what is wrong with the ending everywhere, literally, no need for me to go into details here.

But, to everyone who is perfectly fine with the ending i say this.
First, right now i am so envious of you its not even funny. Its good that you liked it. Its awesome that you can ignore some.... minor inconsistencies and rationalize the ending, its good that you didnt expect anything of what they promised... me? I can not.

Second, since you liked it.... so.... what was up with the Normandy and your squad >_>?



Normandy and squad was transported by a blast of green quantum ionic FTL field into a parallel universe. Or maybe it was Shepard's last dream, in fact they all dead. Or maybe some time passed between Shepard's death and their escape. Or maybe ... Why people want everything explained like in scool? Use your imagination. For me it's not very important because it happens after the logical end of the story.


If I wanted to use my imagination I would read a book, and I do, quite often.  This is a video game, I do not want to speculate on how things might end up after spending hundreds of hours workings towards the resolution.  I want to see some definitive and clear closure for all the time that I spent on this.


Well, good for you. I like to use my imaginatin even in games.

#259
Genera1Nemesis

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sadako wrote...

Genera1Nemesis wrote...

sadako wrote...

Genera1Nemesis wrote...

There's no denying that at all. Even those of us who find it to be a decent ending can agree that we didn't get enough closure for all the characters we had grown to love.


Yeah, it took a fan named flammenpanzer 11 days to come up with 3 closure FMVs that's loads better than the Stargazer ending. Now this is bittersweet melancholic ending with closure. Not Grandpa Bioware + winter sky fmv.

social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/355/index/10124402/1#10125057

For some of the fans that loved the ending, we never even got closure for our LIs, and that's an acceptable ending? I can't believe this!


You're just confirming the point that I made.


Indeed I am confirming it. With sample videos of how closure with the LI should have been. Even if I didn't see those blue babies Liara made, implying it was enough.

Too bad that it took a fan to give me closure, and not bioware.


Yeah, it is too bad; I agree. There is hope, and I do hope they put out a post-game expansion taht maybe let's you play as a new character going on a rescue mission for the Normandy or something....just something! I want to know what happened to my BFF Garrus!

#260
Cody

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The Night Mammoth wrote...

CodyMelch wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...

CodyMelch wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...

Genera1Nemesis wrote...

Again, this is a glass is half empty perspective at best. And not have the resources? What about all those destroyed reapers everywhere? What about all those detroyed ships? All they would need to build is one ship capable of jumping faster than normal FTL; and again; even if that took 10-100 years to do it would still be better than letting the Reapers continue on for another fw million years killing an infinite number of people.


The destroyed Reapers are only around in one of the three 'options' you're given. Doesn't matter anyway, destroyed Reapers are proven to indoctrinate people. 

Destroyed ships can't exactly do much. Some salvagable metal, big woop. How do they extract it? How do they process it? 

They could solve the FTL problem, sure. 
In a few hundred years.


Wrong. Once dead indoctrination is no loner a problem. And it does not take that long to create some useful tech off of a dead reaper. The Thanix Cannon proves this.


The derelict Reaper in ME2 indoctrinates the Cerberus science team, turns some into husks and scions. 

As for the Thanix Cannons, well, that's one piece of tech to improve on one very small part of a single ship, a piece of tech the crew were already extremely close to being abel to create themselves. 
That doesn't mean there's a wealth of other easily extracted information which can ensure people's survival from starvation.


The derelict reaper was still alive is why. It was close to death but alive. This is why they blew it up. This was hinted at throughout the mission on it. The reapers at the end of ME3, if destoryed are deactviated and such. There is nothing left going on.


No it was dead alright. It was genererating a huge Mass Effect field which kept it from tumbling through space, but it was dead. You blew it's core up so you could deactivate the shield and escape. 

Aside, the Reapers only stay around if you destroy them. In the 'other' endings they fly away, so you don't have any tech to apparently scavange.


I already stated the opposite(edit: or hypothosized I should say). If Shepard is controlling them there is no reason for him NOT to help out the other reasons. If he chose synthesis there is no reason why they wouldn't help one another since they are all now the same. Which is something the leader of the reapers wanted.

Modifié par CodyMelch, 17 mars 2012 - 05:49 .


#261
Ieldra

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@Vertigo72:
What you write in your OP is close to my interpretation as well. I actually like the final choice. There are only several problems with this:

(1) The rationale for the final choice - what you're talking about - is one of the smaller problems with the endings that could be easily fixed with a little more exposition. But that exposition is needed, especially for players who make peace between the quarians and the geth. Your scenario draws on non-obvious facts.

(2) Any "there is only one correct choice" setup is no setup that should be in the game. It's as if the game tests players for a "correct" philosophy. I have railed against this setup in the indoctrination hypothesis, and I won't make the same mistake with my favorite ending (which is the Synthesis).

(3) The destruction of the relays still makes all endings feel like downer endings.

(4) The flight of the Normandy still makes no sense and is full of unfortunate implications.

(5) There still is no image of your LI in the flashback if it's not Liara or the VS.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 17 mars 2012 - 05:42 .


#262
thoaloa

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Trust the Reapers? Why exactly would you do that. There is one thing in common in ME that had synthetics trying to kill everyone it all had to do with the Reapers. All the other AI's did it in self defense or because they were poorly conceived (Garbage in, Garbage out).

Synthetics going to kill organics so reapers being synthetics (Organic mush powered) is circular logic. Not to mention merge ending doesn't make any sense and completely shatters suspension of disbelief when you rewrite reality and somehow maintain it without constant rewriting.

I would imagine that synthesis makes all that hybrid life good reaper husk material now that they can indoctrinate you through hacking as well now.

#263
Vergil_dgk

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vertigo72 wrote...

Vergil_dgk wrote...

vertigo72 wrote...

 
People pick the details but don't see the whole picture. So, there is how I understand the whole story and why I think the ending is very good:


You, Shepard, are here to solve a big problem that you don't even understand before the end. Which is this problem?

The main problem of the ME Universe is that organic life creates syntetic life then tries to destroy it. Always. It's like an axiom in this ME Universe, you have to trust Reapers (and Bioware writers) on that. Syntetic life is like organic life, but it is not limited by the body. Most important thing it is immortal. So any AI can evolve as much as they can, because they don't have time constraints. Because of that they are immensely superior. Also, they don't have emotions, at least not much. So we have this hopeless and very very ancient war, that's our problem.


(Don't say that you didn't see that coming because you fight syntetics in all 3 ME games. Reapers, Geth, husks, indoctrinated people, ...)


AIs are like Legion, they don't really need to fight but they will protect their life. So some ancient AI found a solution: a way to unify synthetic and organic life. The problem with this solution is that AIs don't want to unify themselves with some retards (would you like to unify yourself with your pocket calculator?) Also, they don't want to make a choice themselves, maybe they don't have consensus or something. Also, they don't want to force organics.


So, they gave organics a test: evolve enogh and you will have a choice what to do. To pass the test you have to build a big stick, put it on the Citadel and press a button. That's all. Then you will have 3 choices. You have 50000 years to do it, now go and evolve. Every 50k years we (Reapers) will come and give you an exam. When you fail we will copy your software and some DNA into a new reaper then use you for some purpose. 

The Citadel, the little boy, is like the examiner who will judge you. That's why it doesn't inferfere.


And Shepard was the first organic to do it, unify everybody to build the stick and arrive to the exam to press a button.


About 3 choices: it's a part of the exam,  only one choice is correct. 


If you choose to destroy or control the Reapers, then the problem will rise again sooner or later. Synthetics will always evolve into AI and the war will start again, eventually new Reapers will be created and so on. 


If you choose to unify both races then there will be no war anymore and only one form of life that will inherit best parts of both forms. Something like immortal people with all their emotions.


So, to ensure that you really really gave the answer you have right to only one answer, after you die. (If you don't choose you die too, as every 50000 years)


That's my view of this story and that's why I believe the ending is perfect, despite some minor problems, like no helmets...


I think the explanation from the star-child is nonsensical and stupid in many ways, but that's not my main problem with the ending. My main problem is the horrible delivery. A new character is introduced literally minutes before the end. This guy would seem to be a clear enemy having just killed billions of sentients all over the galaxy. Yet we are somehow only able to take everything he says at his word and have almost no choice of how things end (after a game in which the whole point has been your free choice). Then there are all the plotholes/unanswered questions with the teleporting crew, the jungle planet, Shepard breathing at the end, galatic civ. destroyed etc. I really cannot fathom how anyone can think the ending is good - perhaps some people might not have a strong, negative reaction to it - but good?


The argument about delivery, I can agree. They could explain it better. Well, for me it will be a little bit too much explanations, but I think it would help people to understand.

Reapers don't kill, they collect and store most of the people. For them it's not that horrible, it's like format a disk. 

We have all really  important choices and also we can choose nothing and die.

As I said before, we don't know how much time it took for Shep to wake up on the Citadel, we don't know how much time passed before the Crucible started to work. There is time for them to quit Earth. Or maybe it's all a dream.


And the delivery is the whole point, because let's face it: a lot of stuff in video games and movies do not make any logical sense. If delivered right, the audience suspends its disbelief and goes along with the story. This happens for 95% of Mass Effect. But the ending does the opposite shoving a hard to swallow conclusion down our throats - and this in a game where you have had a great deal of freedom in terms of actions and outcomes. To be told at the very end "hey, the guys you thought were bad are really ok, let's join together and create a new life-form" is completely absurd. It just makes no sense in both emotional and intellectual terms. It's like asking us to accept that the ****s were good because they killed handicapped people in order to purify the human race - absurd and horrific. Btw.we do know that Shepard hasn't been passed out for long before entering the beam; the wounded are still crawling away from the place when he comes to, implying that no more than a few minutes could have passed at the most - and why on earth would Joker and the crew be running away from the battle? They of all people would know what is at stake and fight to the bitter end.

#264
vertigo72

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Ieldra2 wrote...

@Vertigo72:
What you write in your OP is close to my interpretation as well. I actually like the final choice. There are only several problems with this:

(1) The rationale for the final choice - what you're talking about - is one of the smaller problems with the endings that could be easily fixed with a little more exposition. But that exposition is needed, especially for players who make peace between the quarians and the geth. Your scenario draws on non-obvious facts.

(2) Any "there is only one correct choice" setup is no setup that should be in the game. It's as if the game tests players for a "correct" philosophy. I have railed against this setup in the indoctrination hypothesis, and I won't make the same mistake with my favorite ending (which is the Synthesis).

(3) The destruction of the relays still makes all endings feel like downer endings.

(4) The flight of the Normandy still makes no sense and is full of unfortunate implications.

(5) There still is no image of your LI in the flashback if it's not Liara or the VS.



1.I believe the idea is that synthetics and organics cannot live together because synthetics are superior, because immortal, and organics will never accept that. It's quite natural in my opinion and it fits the story.

2.There is 4 choices, including to do nothing, and we cannot say which one is correct. 

3.They will rebuild Relays, and if Reapers are destroyed there is no reason to help organics.

4. As I said, we don't know how much time passed beten those events.

#265
Wolven_Soul

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vertigo72 wrote...

Szelenas wrote...

T-0pel wrote...

I am not really gonna talk about most of the issues because other people adressed them already. So with that out of the way here is my main problem:

The AI god thing states that reapers are his solution, not some kind of test. The crucible is not his way of testing organics, it is stated that it is a device that was designed by every galactic civilization and every cycle improved upon it. It is something the god AI did not forsee in all its "perfect and inevetable logic".
And the AI clearly states that you maikng it to the citadel and connecting the crucible changed somthing and it proves that his cycle wont work ANYMORE!
So how can you belive this premise synthetics versus organics without question? The AI clearly made a mistake, organics eventually found a way to overcome his cycle. Maybe we are also able to coexist with synthetics? Maybe Shepards intervention with the Geth forever changed everything in synthetics way of thinking? Dont we have the right to tell him that it might have taken milions of years but eventually we managed to overcome his premise?
Just think about it please...

finally,some can think logically



Yes, Reapers created the cycle, which is a temporary solution to the problem until someone, some organic, prove that they are not full retards and manage to bring that big stick to the Citadel. We don't know who started the Crucible, we only know what Proteans said us. They was not the first and they lost. Maybe Reapers gave the plan of the Crucible to the organics, why not? 

Now, maybe you right then you can choose other ending that synthesis and hope it will work. In fact, nobody knows if the synthesis will work, maybe they will start another war tomorrow.


The Reapers are not the actual ones who created the cycle.  The Godchild implies that he created the Reapers to be his solution, therefore implying that he himself is not a Reaper, that he is above them in some way.  Just saying.

#266
Meltemph

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vertigo72 wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

@Vertigo72:
What you write in your OP is close to my interpretation as well. I actually like the final choice. There are only several problems with this:

(1) The rationale for the final choice - what you're talking about - is one of the smaller problems with the endings that could be easily fixed with a little more exposition. But that exposition is needed, especially for players who make peace between the quarians and the geth. Your scenario draws on non-obvious facts.

(2) Any "there is only one correct choice" setup is no setup that should be in the game. It's as if the game tests players for a "correct" philosophy. I have railed against this setup in the indoctrination hypothesis, and I won't make the same mistake with my favorite ending (which is the Synthesis).

(3) The destruction of the relays still makes all endings feel like downer endings.

(4) The flight of the Normandy still makes no sense and is full of unfortunate implications.

(5) There still is no image of your LI in the flashback if it's not Liara or the VS.



1.I believe the idea is that synthetics and organics cannot live together because synthetics are superior, because immortal, and organics will never accept that. It's quite natural in my opinion and it fits the story.

2.There is 4 choices, including to do nothing, and we cannot say which one is correct. 

3.They will rebuild Relays, and if Reapers are destroyed there is no reason to help organics.

4. As I said, we don't know how much time passed beten those events.





In order to beleive this, you realize you have to ignore the existence of the reapers. -_-  Seriously, how do you not see this.

#267
vertigo72

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Vergil_dgk wrote...

vertigo72 wrote...

Vergil_dgk wrote...

vertigo72 wrote...

 
People pick the details but don't see the whole picture. So, there is how I understand the whole story and why I think the ending is very good:


You, Shepard, are here to solve a big problem that you don't even understand before the end. Which is this problem?

The main problem of the ME Universe is that organic life creates syntetic life then tries to destroy it. Always. It's like an axiom in this ME Universe, you have to trust Reapers (and Bioware writers) on that. Syntetic life is like organic life, but it is not limited by the body. Most important thing it is immortal. So any AI can evolve as much as they can, because they don't have time constraints. Because of that they are immensely superior. Also, they don't have emotions, at least not much. So we have this hopeless and very very ancient war, that's our problem.


(Don't say that you didn't see that coming because you fight syntetics in all 3 ME games. Reapers, Geth, husks, indoctrinated people, ...)


AIs are like Legion, they don't really need to fight but they will protect their life. So some ancient AI found a solution: a way to unify synthetic and organic life. The problem with this solution is that AIs don't want to unify themselves with some retards (would you like to unify yourself with your pocket calculator?) Also, they don't want to make a choice themselves, maybe they don't have consensus or something. Also, they don't want to force organics.


So, they gave organics a test: evolve enogh and you will have a choice what to do. To pass the test you have to build a big stick, put it on the Citadel and press a button. That's all. Then you will have 3 choices. You have 50000 years to do it, now go and evolve. Every 50k years we (Reapers) will come and give you an exam. When you fail we will copy your software and some DNA into a new reaper then use you for some purpose. 

The Citadel, the little boy, is like the examiner who will judge you. That's why it doesn't inferfere.


And Shepard was the first organic to do it, unify everybody to build the stick and arrive to the exam to press a button.


About 3 choices: it's a part of the exam,  only one choice is correct. 


If you choose to destroy or control the Reapers, then the problem will rise again sooner or later. Synthetics will always evolve into AI and the war will start again, eventually new Reapers will be created and so on. 


If you choose to unify both races then there will be no war anymore and only one form of life that will inherit best parts of both forms. Something like immortal people with all their emotions.


So, to ensure that you really really gave the answer you have right to only one answer, after you die. (If you don't choose you die too, as every 50000 years)


That's my view of this story and that's why I believe the ending is perfect, despite some minor problems, like no helmets...


I think the explanation from the star-child is nonsensical and stupid in many ways, but that's not my main problem with the ending. My main problem is the horrible delivery. A new character is introduced literally minutes before the end. This guy would seem to be a clear enemy having just killed billions of sentients all over the galaxy. Yet we are somehow only able to take everything he says at his word and have almost no choice of how things end (after a game in which the whole point has been your free choice). Then there are all the plotholes/unanswered questions with the teleporting crew, the jungle planet, Shepard breathing at the end, galatic civ. destroyed etc. I really cannot fathom how anyone can think the ending is good - perhaps some people might not have a strong, negative reaction to it - but good?


The argument about delivery, I can agree. They could explain it better. Well, for me it will be a little bit too much explanations, but I think it would help people to understand.

Reapers don't kill, they collect and store most of the people. For them it's not that horrible, it's like format a disk. 

We have all really  important choices and also we can choose nothing and die.

As I said before, we don't know how much time it took for Shep to wake up on the Citadel, we don't know how much time passed before the Crucible started to work. There is time for them to quit Earth. Or maybe it's all a dream.


And the delivery is the whole point, because let's face it: a lot of stuff in video games and movies do not make any logical sense. If delivered right, the audience suspends its disbelief and goes along with the story. This happens for 95% of Mass Effect. But the ending does the opposite shoving a hard to swallow conclusion down our throats - and this in a game where you have had a great deal of freedom in terms of actions and outcomes. To be told at the very end "hey, the guys you thought were bad are really ok, let's join together and create a new life-form" is completely absurd. It just makes no sense in both emotional and intellectual terms. It's like asking us to accept that the ****s were good because they killed handicapped people in order to purify the human race - absurd and horrific. Btw.we do know that Shepard hasn't been passed out for long before entering the beam; the wounded are still crawling away from the place when he comes to, implying that no more than a few minutes could have passed at the most - and why on earth would Joker and the crew be running away from the battle? They of all people would know what is at stake and fight to the bitter end.


Duno, for me it's not absurd and I understood it like I explained here at the moment I saw it. 

I don't really think we know how much time passed, we don't even know it this final Normandy scene was true or a dream. There are lot of dreams in the game.

#268
vertigo72

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Wolven_Soul wrote...

vertigo72 wrote...

Szelenas wrote...

T-0pel wrote...

I am not really gonna talk about most of the issues because other people adressed them already. So with that out of the way here is my main problem:

The AI god thing states that reapers are his solution, not some kind of test. The crucible is not his way of testing organics, it is stated that it is a device that was designed by every galactic civilization and every cycle improved upon it. It is something the god AI did not forsee in all its "perfect and inevetable logic".
And the AI clearly states that you maikng it to the citadel and connecting the crucible changed somthing and it proves that his cycle wont work ANYMORE!
So how can you belive this premise synthetics versus organics without question? The AI clearly made a mistake, organics eventually found a way to overcome his cycle. Maybe we are also able to coexist with synthetics? Maybe Shepards intervention with the Geth forever changed everything in synthetics way of thinking? Dont we have the right to tell him that it might have taken milions of years but eventually we managed to overcome his premise?
Just think about it please...

finally,some can think logically



Yes, Reapers created the cycle, which is a temporary solution to the problem until someone, some organic, prove that they are not full retards and manage to bring that big stick to the Citadel. We don't know who started the Crucible, we only know what Proteans said us. They was not the first and they lost. Maybe Reapers gave the plan of the Crucible to the organics, why not? 

Now, maybe you right then you can choose other ending that synthesis and hope it will work. In fact, nobody knows if the synthesis will work, maybe they will start another war tomorrow.


The Reapers are not the actual ones who created the cycle.  The Godchild implies that he created the Reapers to be his solution, therefore implying that he himself is not a Reaper, that he is above them in some way.  Just saying.



Reapers are solution, they are used to control organic population and prevent the destruction of synthetics. But the crucible and  this place with 3 choices, it's clearly a test. It was planned from the beginning: once organics pass the test we propose them to unite. I see it like that.

#269
Vergil_dgk

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For the record, I don't think what is needed is more explanation. I think was is needed is that the final scene with the star-child is cut and the player be given 3 options: 1) Shepard sacrifices himself to save galactic civilization including the Mass Relays. 2) Shepard joins with the Illusive Man and attempts to control the reapers and through them the galaxy - leading to possible indoctrination. 3) Shepard destroys the reapers but does not sacrifice himself. As a result, the relays are destroyed and galactic civilization collapses - but Shepard is free to spend the rest of his life with Liara (or whoever). Those 3 endings present actual, bona-fide choice for the player, ambiguous but satisfying endings each in their own way. We don't really need a thorough explanation of why the reapers do what they do. It would be enough with hints: "we are order, we are your future, we are the pinnacle of evolution etc." - then the fans could "speculate" in a positive way.

Modifié par Vergil_dgk, 17 mars 2012 - 06:01 .


#270
Mandemon

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Genera1Nemesis wrote...

Mandemon wrote...

Genera1Nemesis wrote...

Killer3000ad wrote...

vertigo72 wrote...

Well, that matches with the rest of the story. For example war with synthetics, it's what we do for all 3 games.


But you also make friends with Legion and EDI in ME2, discover that only a portion of the Geth joined the reapers, then help make peace between the Quarians and Geth in ME3 and encourage EDI to embrace Joker.

All of this completely defies the logic of the Reapers. And don't claim,"Oh, the reapers have millions of years of knowledge" The Reapers wiped out civilizations before they advanced far enough. The Reapers are working off their OWN PERSONAL experience and are close-minded and won't embrace a dissenting opinion, no they wipe them out before they have the chance to address the problem they think they might have.



These are exceptions; not the rule. Cerberus was constantly making AI weapons; Overlord being one of their more dastardly ones. Using the Geth and EDI as the only examples is short-sighted at best. Plus, the story of the Heretics proves the Catalyst's point; they chose to kill organics in order to advance tehcnologically.


Project Overlord was not a real AI. It was human strapped to machine, which was supposed to communicate with AI. Also, Heretic Geth were smaller group who didn't wish to wait and build the megastructure themselves, instead hoped that Reapers would do it. Also, Sovering pretty much brainwashed them.

Notice how each time AI rebelsit happens because

A) It is attacked first or tries to defend itself
B) Reapers corrupt it

Give me an example where AI attacks without either doing it in self-defence or Reapers not corrupting it


Sovereign offered to help build the Geth hub. The heretics thought Soveriegn was like a god; the epitome of AI. The CHOSE to fight for Soveriegn, he didn't brainwash them. Had he breainwashed them then it would have been all Geth, not just a few.

And even self-preservation can lead to the conclusion that organics are just going to keep trying to wipe them out; so maybe getting rid of them entirely might be a good idea. remember, Legion even stated that the Geth wer still 'reaching consensus' on the implications of wiping out an enitire species.

And if you don't convince them otherwise; Legion even says 'the deaths of the creators is the only way. Sorry Tali-Zora, there is no other option." Of course at that point you either paragon or renegade it, but if you don't then it ends up as either the Quarians wipe out the Geth or vice versa.


Remember the situation? Geth fleet inmmobilized, unable to counter? Legion is updating their software so they can become true AI? How Quarian admiral orders them to destroy the Geth.

Legion is at this point required to chooce between his own people, who want to be left alone and people who want to destroy them simp,y because the exist.

Also, his full quote is:

"We regret the deaths of the creators but... we see no alternatives." He says this in voice that impleis that he does not want to condem Quarians to extinction, but he can't abandon his own people either.



Also, just because they were reaching the consessus does not mean they would have done even if they had reached a concessus. They might have decided to not to do it.

#271
vertigo72

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Vergil_dgk wrote...

For the record, I don't think what is needed is more explanation. I think was is needed is that the final scene with the star-child is cut and the player be given 3 options: 1) Shepard sacrifices himself to save galactic civilization including the Mass Relays. 2) Shepard joins with the Illusive Man and attempts to control the reapers and through them the galaxy - leading to possible indoctrination. 3) Shepard destroys the reapers but does not sacrifice himself. As a result, the relays are destroyed and galactic civilization collapses - but Shepard is free to spend the rest of his life with Liara (or whoever). Those 3 endings present actual, bona-fide choice for the player, ambiguous but satisfying endings each in their own way. We don't really need a thorough explanation of why the reapers do what they do. It would be enough with hints: "we are order, we are your future, we are the pinnacle of evolution etc." - then the fans could "speculate" in a positive way.


I like the actual ending more, because you know, Liara is cute, but creating new forms of life is more fun. 

BTW reapers are invincible by definition and TIM is indoctrinated. 


Oh, and I have better ending! If you played full renegade femshep you have an option to kill the reaprs, kill TIM then have a threesome with Tali and Liara. 

Modifié par vertigo72, 17 mars 2012 - 06:09 .


#272
Mandemon

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vertigo72 wrote...

Vergil_dgk wrote...

For the record, I don't think what is needed is more explanation. I think was is needed is that the final scene with the star-child is cut and the player be given 3 options: 1) Shepard sacrifices himself to save galactic civilization including the Mass Relays. 2) Shepard joins with the Illusive Man and attempts to control the reapers and through them the galaxy - leading to possible indoctrination. 3) Shepard destroys the reapers but does not sacrifice himself. As a result, the relays are destroyed and galactic civilization collapses - but Shepard is free to spend the rest of his life with Liara (or whoever). Those 3 endings present actual, bona-fide choice for the player, ambiguous but satisfying endings each in their own way. We don't really need a thorough explanation of why the reapers do what they do. It would be enough with hints: "we are order, we are your future, we are the pinnacle of evolution etc." - then the fans could "speculate" in a positive way.


I like the actual ending more, because you know, Liara is cute, but creating new forms of life is more fun. 

BTW reapers are invincible by definition and TIM is indoctrinated. 


Ahh, no. Reapers are not 
invincible. If they were, explain why Sovereing needed Geth fleet to occupy Citadel defence. Explain why he needed Saren to close the damn thing. Explain why he was killed. You also see few Reapers getting killed in FMV when the battle starts

Insanely powerfull, yes.  Invincible? Nope

Modifié par Mandemon, 17 mars 2012 - 06:10 .


#273
Wolven_Soul

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Genera1Nemesis wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...

Genera1Nemesis wrote...

Point being that the galaxy was still saved, and trillions of lives that would have been lost to the Reapers can now find a way to rebuild the galaxy by their own rules. The Catalyst dealt in absolutes; thus was the representation of fate. Sheperd dealt in uncertaintly; and thus was the avatar of free-will. He gave the galaxy their 'freedom' from the technology and subsequent path that the Reapers had used to pigeon hole the galaxy into an elaborate trap. I'd say that's a pretty huge victory; but that is just my opinion.


Trillions more are lost now that the Relays have been destroyed, regardless of whether you think they went supernova or not. 

Shepard being the avatar of free will with the Catalyst being the representation of inevetibility is correct. 
Why Shepard then goes along with everything at the end like a robot is a plot hole and contradiciton. 

As for the last point, well, that the Reapers used the Relays to control our technological development is irrelevant now that the Reapers are gone. 


Sheperd was dying. He was bleeding out and could barely stand. Hackett said they could never win conventionally, and that they needed Crucible to work or they were going to lose. I didn't see Shep give in; he acted out of desperation to make sure the war was over. He didn't have time to find a console and reprogram Crucible or anything like that...for all he knew he was going to pass out again and never wake up.

On the issue of the relays; I don't think they destroyed solar systems like the one in Arrival. In Arrival you smashed a massive asteroid into it that was a mining facility. It created a much larger blast wave that took out the solar system.

Even if; say; 10 million people died because the relays were gone and they were desperate for resources and food; wouldn't that be better than the infinite number of lives the Reapers would take if they had continued the cycle? Shep saved every cycle, not just his own. Mass Relays were but one way space travel was possible; who's to say that the Asari or Salarians couldn;t come up with something better because now they kinda have to.


The method of destruction does not make said destruction bigger or smaller, not in this case.  It was said that the mass effect relay being destroyed would wipe out the whole system, not that the asteroid smashing into it would make that destrction all the bigger,  The method of that destruction does not really matter, the asteroid smashing into the relay does not affect anything else outside of the area that the relay is in.  Though if you want to go that way, the energy beam created by the crucible + catalyst could be said to be a heck of a lot more powerful than a mere asteroid.

#274
Ultra Prism

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I am glad that you liked the ending

in my point of view, I have united the galaxy both synthetic and organics to fight along side against Reapers ... then out of the blue, I am given three choices by Star God Child and his Space Magic ... seriously the Flow of story just went negative and backfired at me like Bioware just lost control of telling the story in the end ... (tried to be too excessive artistic) ... then have Normandy Seth Green flying away instead having like dialogues like LI saying "we must try to save shepard" or Shepard saying in the last moment "Everyone get out of here, back to homeworld, Joker get everyone out of here" Sacrifice that would be more realistic and logical

#275
vertigo72

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Mandemon wrote...

vertigo72 wrote...

Vergil_dgk wrote...

For the record, I don't think what is needed is more explanation. I think was is needed is that the final scene with the star-child is cut and the player be given 3 options: 1) Shepard sacrifices himself to save galactic civilization including the Mass Relays. 2) Shepard joins with the Illusive Man and attempts to control the reapers and through them the galaxy - leading to possible indoctrination. 3) Shepard destroys the reapers but does not sacrifice himself. As a result, the relays are destroyed and galactic civilization collapses - but Shepard is free to spend the rest of his life with Liara (or whoever). Those 3 endings present actual, bona-fide choice for the player, ambiguous but satisfying endings each in their own way. We don't really need a thorough explanation of why the reapers do what they do. It would be enough with hints: "we are order, we are your future, we are the pinnacle of evolution etc." - then the fans could "speculate" in a positive way.


I like the actual ending more, because you know, Liara is cute, but creating new forms of life is more fun. 

BTW reapers are invincible by definition and TIM is indoctrinated. 


Ahh, no. Reapers are not 
invincible. If they were, explain why Sovereing needed Geth fleet to occupy Citadel defence. Explain why he needed Saren to close the damn thing. Explain why he was killed. You also see few Reapers getting killed in FMV when the battle starts

Insanely powerfull, yes.  Invincible? Nope


To stay hidden. He was just one Reaper. Also reapers always fight using someone else, it's easier.
All those reapers togehter were invincible. If at the end Shep build a huge gun and kill them it would be a biggest plot-hole in history.