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Why I believe the ending is correct


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#276
Wolven_Soul

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Genera1Nemesis wrote...

Andronic0s wrote...

vertigo72 wrote...

The main problem of the ME Universe is that organic life creates syntetic life then tries to destroy it. Always. It's like an axiom in this ME Universe, you have to trust Reapers (and Bioware writers) on that. 


Assuming you believe the star child, but we know the star child can be wrong, if you choose the renegade ending it is implied Shepard lived after the citadel explosion yet the starchild told us we would die, he either lied or miscaulculated, both of which implied that the starchild is not to be trusted.





Taking a lst breath while buried under the rubble of the reactor he shot does not mean he 'lived'. And Catalyst says 'the cycle will just start again' if you choose that ending....


If he doesn't live then what the heck is the point of that scene?

#277
vertigo72

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Ultra Prism wrote...

I am glad that you liked the ending

in my point of view, I have united the galaxy both synthetic and organics to fight along side against Reapers ... then out of the blue, I am given three choices by Star God Child and his Space Magic ... seriously the Flow of story just went negative and backfired at me like Bioware just lost control of telling the story in the end ... (tried to be too excessive artistic) ... then have Normandy Seth Green flying away instead having like dialogues like LI saying "we must try to save shepard" or Shepard saying in the last moment "Everyone get out of here, back to homeworld, Joker get everyone out of here" Sacrifice that would be more realistic and logical



The point is, that organics and synthetics cannot have peace, synthetics are immensely superior because they are immortal. In my opinion it makes sense.

#278
Wolven_Soul

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Genera1Nemesis wrote...

Wolven_Soul wrote...

vertigo72 wrote...

 
People pick the details but don't see the whole picture. So, there is how I understand the whole story and why I think the ending is very good:


You, Shepard, are here to solve a big problem that you don't even understand before the end. Which is this problem?

The main problem of the ME Universe is that organic life creates syntetic life then tries to destroy it. Always. It's like an axiom in this ME Universe, you have to trust Reapers (and Bioware writers) on that. Syntetic life is like organic life, but it is not limited by the body. Most important thing it is immortal. So any AI can evolve as much as they can, because they don't have time constraints. Because of that they are immensely superior. Also, they don't have emotions, at least not much. So we have this hopeless and very very ancient war, that's our problem.


(Don't say that you didn't see that coming because you fight syntetics in all 3 ME games. Reapers, Geth, husks, indoctrinated people, ...)


AIs are like Legion, they don't really need to fight but they will protect their life. So some ancient AI found a solution: a way to unify synthetic and organic life. The problem with this solution is that AIs don't want to unify themselves with some retards (would you like to unify yourself with your pocket calculator?) Also, they don't want to make a choice themselves, maybe they don't have consensus or something. Also, they don't want to force organics.


So, they gave organics a test: evolve enogh and you will have a choice what to do. To pass the test you have to build a big stick, put it on the Citadel and press a button. That's all. Then you will have 3 choices. You have 50000 years to do it, now go and evolve. Every 50k years we (Reapers) will come and give you an exam. When you fail we will copy your software and some DNA into a new reaper then use you for some purpose. 

The Citadel, the little boy, is like the examiner who will judge you. That's why it doesn't inferfere.


And Shepard was the first organic to do it, unify everybody to build the stick and arrive to the exam to press a button.


About 3 choices: it's a part of the exam,  only one choice is correct. 


If you choose to destroy or control the Reapers, then the problem will rise again sooner or later. Synthetics will always evolve into AI and the war will start again, eventually new Reapers will be created and so on. 


If you choose to unify both races then there will be no war anymore and only one form of life that will inherit best parts of both forms. Something like immortal people with all their emotions.


So, to ensure that you really really gave the answer you have right to only one answer, after you die. (If you don't choose you die too, as every 50000 years)


That's my view of this story and that's why I believe the ending is perfect, despite some minor problems, like no helmets...


I disagree with you in so many ways, but every arguement you make has been refuted over and over, and will no doubt be so again in this threat.  If you liked the ending, fine, the greater majority of the rest of us didn't for reasons already discussed many times over.


But every argument made that says otherwise can be refuted too. noone is right or wrong on this subject because we all have our own perspectives and beliefs. Everything being offered up is opinion based on what we see or hear. Jut because I disagree with people who don't like the ending based on what I thought was good about does not mean that I'm right; just that I have a different perspective.

"You will find that many of the truths we face depend greatly on our own point of view." Obi-Wan Kinobi


Point taken.  

#279
Wolven_Soul

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vertigo72 wrote...

Mandemon wrote...

vertigo72 wrote...

Mandemon wrote...

vertigo72 wrote...

Mandemon wrote...

 Synthesis makes no sense, because:
1) This spce magic:wizard: has no explanation anywhere.

2) How do you "fuse" synthethic(machine) and organic into new DNA? DNA is inheritly biological. This "solution" assumes that whatever "conflict" that will rise is based on what someone is made of. 

3) "Shepards essence", WTF? Shepard is organic, not synthethic. The Walking Plot Hole says s/he is part synthethic, but as far as I know, there is no trace of anything synthethic in his/her DNA.

4) How this happens? Control and Destroy atleast can handvawe this by having it affect Reaper programming, but this... I mean, pulse goes out and space magic:wizard: does something impossible to DNA?


Synthetics are software, people are some other kind of  computers (biochemical computers), why not to merge them? How? Well, Reapers had millions of years to find out. How it happens? You know, it's a little bit late to ask. You spent 150 hours believing that AI can exist (and Mass Effect fields too), so why this question now? Somehow using FTL core and Mass Effect fields.


Damn I'm late. Anyway, The Walking Plot Hole speficly refers to DNA, not minds. So it doesnät change "software", it changes "hardware". Also, Reapers don't have DNA as far as we know. They melt down biological lifeforms into goo and pump them to serve as brains.

Also, Element Zero and whole Mass Effect is explained in-universe why and how. Also, several times it is explained how AI can exist. EDI has Quantum core, that is like saying she has mechanical version of human brains. Geth, untill Reaper upgrades, are collective of smaller programs that together can achieve larger and larger intelligence. Signular Geth is no smarter than your phone. Thousand Geth working together can form a concessus and appear sentient.

There is limit on how much you can suspend your disbelief. If world remains consistent with itself, it is easier. This thing? Never even theorised in-universe, it simply comes out of nowhere.



Sorry, it's just a good writing. If they really knew *how* AI can exist, we could build one. With good writing they make it appers like it exists. "Quantum core is a mechanical version of human brain" is bull****. All this talk about geth intelligence it's also bull****. It's just that was explained before and the green beam of light wasn't.  

Now, in-universe, Reapers was sitting here for millions of years, they could invent a lot more than that. And it's quite logical they didn't run everywhere telling everybody: look look I have a green beam that rewrites your dna, let me explain how it works. It all makes sense in-universe.


Reapers were sitting here million of years? Nooooope, they were sleeping 49 999 years in dark space outside galaxy, come in for decade or two, wipe out everything above technology level X and get back to dark space for another 49 999 years . Also, the damn Green Beam is not Reaper tech. It's because of the Crucible did something.

Also, how is Geth intelligence or EDI brain in the jar 
bull****? Because we don't have them now? In that case, you are in wrong place. This is Science Fiction, a rather hard one. We do not have magic anywhere else, biotics skip the line but they are explained as tumors created by exposure to Element Zero before birth and require implant to work on humans. Space Magic:wizard: beam has no resemblence to anything.

Also, you still haven't explained how the **** does the beam work? How do you make DNA half-synthethic half-organic?

Let me ask you, if in the final moments of the Star Wars trilogy, after the death of Vader, instead of having scene with Ewoks you had Star child from 2001: Space Odussey? Woudl you still claim it is ok?



Siting in dark space don't mean they was not thinking. You don't have to run to make some science.

We don't know much about Crucible. My theory is that's Reaper tech, see above.

Sorry for the world bull****, I mean it's a lie. But they describet it so well you start to trust it exists. Green Beam is exactly the same thing, except we didn't see it before.  But as I said, why reapers will show it before? 

Honestly speaking, I never seen that movie. I'm more into books, Lem, PKD, Pelevin, Asimov, stuff like that.




It's actually said at one point that the Reapers basically shut themselves down for so many years to conserve energy.  As well it says that Soveriegn wakes himself up every so often to check and see if civilization has progressed far enough to star the cycle again.  If he was awake, I am sure he would know the exact moment and this series of events would have started a lot sooner.

#280
Mandemon

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vertigo72 wrote...

Mandemon wrote...

vertigo72 wrote...

Vergil_dgk wrote...

For the record, I don't think what is needed is more explanation. I think was is needed is that the final scene with the star-child is cut and the player be given 3 options: 1) Shepard sacrifices himself to save galactic civilization including the Mass Relays. 2) Shepard joins with the Illusive Man and attempts to control the reapers and through them the galaxy - leading to possible indoctrination. 3) Shepard destroys the reapers but does not sacrifice himself. As a result, the relays are destroyed and galactic civilization collapses - but Shepard is free to spend the rest of his life with Liara (or whoever). Those 3 endings present actual, bona-fide choice for the player, ambiguous but satisfying endings each in their own way. We don't really need a thorough explanation of why the reapers do what they do. It would be enough with hints: "we are order, we are your future, we are the pinnacle of evolution etc." - then the fans could "speculate" in a positive way.


I like the actual ending more, because you know, Liara is cute, but creating new forms of life is more fun. 

BTW reapers are invincible by definition and TIM is indoctrinated. 


Ahh, no. Reapers are not 
invincible. If they were, explain why Sovereing needed Geth fleet to occupy Citadel defence. Explain why he needed Saren to close the damn thing. Explain why he was killed. You also see few Reapers getting killed in FMV when the battle starts

Insanely powerfull, yes.  Invincible? Nope


To stay hidden. He was just one Reaper. Also reapers always fight using someone else, it's easier.
All those reapers togehter were invincible. If at the end Shep build a huge gun and kill them it would be a biggest plot-hole in history.


Wanna hear somethign funny? Someone already did build said gun. You can find the planet what it hit and you visit the Reaper they killed. Only thing I know why Reapers didn't jsut steam roll over galaxy is that this time we still had Mass Relays. even Protheans took decades to defeat and they were isolated from each others. Outpost on Ilos heard too late about the attack to help anyway.

#281
novaseeker

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vertigo72 wrote...

Reapers don't kill, they collect and store most of the people. For them it's not that horrible, it's like format a disk. 


Really?

"My attacks will tear you apart!"

"You will feel pain, Shepard."

Doesn't sound like formatting a disk.  Sounds pretty evil to me.

#282
Wolven_Soul

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vertigo72 wrote...

Wolven_Soul wrote...

vertigo72 wrote...

Doctor Uburian wrote...

vertigo72 wrote...

Kronner wrote...

Three words: geth, quarians, peace.

Destroy is the only right answer. The Guardian is full of **** and the red magic obviously does not kill geth.


Not sure if I understand. If you choose to unify there will be no war because there will be no organics and no synthetics but a new form of life. Probably there will be some new war, but not his one.


But those species didn't chose to ¨evolve¨!

It's their decisison, not the Starchild's or Shepards decision.


They trust him, it's like a democracy. But if you don't think so you can just destroy Reapers or do nothing. Plenty of choices.


They trusted him in the effort to destroy the Reapers.  They never have any knowledge of this choice.  If they did have a knowledge of it, I have no doubts they would be screaming at Shepherd to blow the Reapers up.



He actually can destroy Reapers, there is an option? But, probably, that will change nothing, as I said before. New synthetics will be created, followed by war, followed by new Reapers. Or maybe it will, you choose to destroy them or not.


The fact that he can choose to destory the Reapers is not the point.  You like the Synthesis ending, I am saying that ending is morally wrong. 

Besides, who is to say that the new merged form of life is not going to create their own brand new synthetics some day?  Your way changes nothing as well.

#283
Mandemon

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vertigo72 wrote...

Ultra Prism wrote...

I am glad that you liked the ending

in my point of view, I have united the galaxy both synthetic and organics to fight along side against Reapers ... then out of the blue, I am given three choices by Star God Child and his Space Magic ... seriously the Flow of story just went negative and backfired at me like Bioware just lost control of telling the story in the end ... (tried to be too excessive artistic) ... then have Normandy Seth Green flying away instead having like dialogues like LI saying "we must try to save shepard" or Shepard saying in the last moment "Everyone get out of here, back to homeworld, Joker get everyone out of here" Sacrifice that would be more realistic and logical



The point is, that organics and synthetics cannot have peace, synthetics are immensely superior because they are immortal. In my opinion it makes sense.




Why cannot they have peace? Just because one is immortal and other one isn't? No offence, but that's lamest excuse to start conflict over. How are Synthethic superior? Geth are superior only because they have all this time to build and research, where as Quarians have barely survived.

EDI does not even attempt to claim to be better in anything else than thinking. She can still be wrong.

#284
Wolven_Soul

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Genera1Nemesis wrote...

Dark_Caduceus wrote...

Doctor Uburian wrote...

vertigo72 wrote...

Kronner wrote...

Three words: geth, quarians, peace.

Destroy is the only right answer. The Guardian is full of **** and the red magic obviously does not kill geth.


Not sure if I understand. If you choose to unify there will be no war because there will be no organics and no synthetics but a new form of life. Probably there will be some new war, but not his one.


But those species didn't chose to ¨evolve¨!

It's their decisison, not the Starchild's or Shepards decision.


Indeed.

To the OP, could you ever imagine homogenizing all the people on earth for the promise of ending human conflict? If you can, then you've already lost. It's diversity and unity in the face of adversity that's inspiring and powerful, not "if everyone is the same, then people won't fight anymore".


Ever see The Day the Earth Stood Still? It's basically the same theme as what the Reapers represented...


Not really.  In that movie the aliens were worried that humanity was going to destroy the planet through their technological polluting.  It has nothing to do with synthetics rising up and destroying all organic life.

#285
Wolven_Soul

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I think you nailed the problem. The people are angry because Shep dies. Shep dies implies they lost. Critical mission failure. In my opinion it's not true in this case, Shepard dies and you win. 



Wrong.  So very, very wrong.  No one is mad because Shepherd dies.  Pretty much everyone with half a brain cell pretty much expected Shepherd to die.  I know that I did.  Do I want a happy ending?  Yes, I am a happy ending kind of guy.  But I did not expect a happy ending.  I would be perfectly happy with an ending where Shepherd dies saving the galaxy.  As long as it made sense and offered me that sense of closure.  The ending that we got, does not.

#286
Soma.E-Pro

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[quote]novaseeker wrote...

[quote]vertigo72 wrote...

Reapers don't kill, they collect and store most of the people. For them it's not that horrible, it's like format a disk. 

[/quote]

Really?? Grinding people into a generic brand of Reaper toothpaste to make more baby Reapers isn't killing? Indoctrinated!!! I could see the ending, as is, maybe working out if it were excecuted in a half decent fashion, but it was not what we were all building towards over the past five years, hence the monumental let down. But if you really are content with it, I envy you tremendously.

Modifié par Soma.E-Pro, 17 mars 2012 - 06:31 .


#287
Wolven_Soul

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Genera1Nemesis wrote...

Wolven_Soul wrote...

vertigo72 wrote...

pharsti wrote...

You can read what is wrong with the ending everywhere, literally, no need for me to go into details here.

But, to everyone who is perfectly fine with the ending i say this.
First, right now i am so envious of you its not even funny. Its good that you liked it. Its awesome that you can ignore some.... minor inconsistencies and rationalize the ending, its good that you didnt expect anything of what they promised... me? I can not.

Second, since you liked it.... so.... what was up with the Normandy and your squad >_>?



Normandy and squad was transported by a blast of green quantum ionic FTL field into a parallel universe. Or maybe it was Shepard's last dream, in fact they all dead. Or maybe some time passed between Shepard's death and their escape. Or maybe ... Why people want everything explained like in scool? Use your imagination. For me it's not very important because it happens after the logical end of the story.


If I wanted to use my imagination I would read a book, and I do, quite often.  This is a video game, I do not want to speculate on how things might end up after spending hundreds of hours workings towards the resolution.  I want to see some definitive and clear closure for all the time that I spent on this.


There's no denying that at all. Even those of us who find it to be a decent ending can agree that we didn't get enough closure for all the characters we had grown to love.


Well at least we can agree on something, lol.  There might be hope for us after all.  :P

#288
Tric

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Hello, first and foremost I would like to apologise if any of this sounds as if I'm attacking you, that's not what I am trying to do and again, I'm sorry if it does, it's hard putting the right emotions in writen words.

vertigo72 wrote...
 
People pick the details but don't see the whole picture. So, there is how I understand the whole story and why I think the ending is very good:


You, Shepard, are here to solve a big problem that you don't even understand before the end. Which is this problem?

The main problem of the ME Universe is that organic life creates syntetic life then tries to destroy it. Always. It's like an axiom in this ME Universe, you have to trust Reapers (and Bioware writers) on that. Syntetic life is like organic life, but it is not limited by the body. Most important thing it is immortal. So any AI can evolve as much as they can, because they don't have time constraints. Because of that they are immensely superior. Also, they don't have emotions, at least not much. So we have this hopeless and very very ancient war, that's our problem.


And this was only presented in the last minutes of the game, yes it was also present in the previous ones and during this one but from a narrative and gameplay stand point this topic of synthetic vs organics had already been resolved and even before that it was a secondary topic never pointed out as a principal one, the union of species and individuals was always far more prevalent, and the idea of the singularity only really appears when speaking with the StarChild.

And the StarChild itself only introduced only in the last moments making everything even more jarring.

The Reapers are not BioWare, they are not all knowing, they are not always right, they are our enemy and we are forced take their logic and solution as correct no matter what.

(Don't say that you didn't see that coming because you fight syntetics in all 3 ME games. Reapers, Geth, husks, indoctrinated people, ...)


You know what else you also always saw in all three games? Comments on the lack of resources and mercenaries wrecking things, the fact that you fought synthetics in all games doesn't compensate the fact that the topic of the singularity is only brought up by the Leader/Will/something of your enemies on the last moments of the game.

You can look at this topic for a more careful analysis of the ending from a screenwriter's point of view: Musings of a Screenwriter: The Ending

AIs are like Legion, they don't really need to fight but they will protect their life. So some ancient AI found a solution: a way to unify synthetic and organic life. The problem with this solution is that AIs don't want to unify themselves with some retards (would you like to unify yourself with your pocket calculator?) Also, they don't want to make a choice themselves, maybe they don't have consensus or something. Also, they don't want to force organics.


So, they gave organics a test: evolve enogh and you will have a choice what to do. To pass the test you have to build a big stick, put it on the Citadel and press a button. That's all. Then you will have 3 choices. You have 50000 years to do it, now go and evolve. Every 50k years we (Reapers) will come and give you an exam. When you fail we will copy your software and some DNA into a new reaper then use you for some purpose.

The Citadel, the little boy, is like the examiner who will judge you. That's why it doesn't inferfere.


And Shepard was the first organic to do it, unify everybody to build the stick and arrive to the exam to press a button.


This is very much your headcanon more than anything else, none of this is truly said by the StarChild and I'd really prefer not to address most of this due to that.
Not that we can do much more than headcanon since BioWare decided that we didn't need any answers for the things they throw on us in the last minutes of the game... <_<

About 3 choices: it's a part of the exam,  only one choice is correct. 


If you choose to destroy or control the Reapers, then the problem will rise again sooner or later. Synthetics will always evolve into AI and the war will start again, eventually new Reapers will be created and so on. 


If you choose to unify both races then there will be no war anymore and only one form of life that will inherit best parts of both forms. Something like immortal people with all their emotions.


So, to ensure that you really really gave the answer you have right to only one answer, after you die. (If you don't choose you die too, as every 50000 years)


That's my view of this story and that's why I believe the ending is perfect, despite some minor problems, like no helmets...


And why would somehow, magically, turn all organics and synthetics into a mix of both be a solution? What's stopping them from creating pure organics again?
Are they being controlled so not to do that?
How does this even affect other organics?
Will this also affect future organic species that weren't caught by the ray? And if yes, how?
How can synthetics be turned into part organic?

And even then you have to accept the logic of the Reapers which is heavily flawed and runs on absolutes.

One can also say that it is certain that organics themselves will create something that will destroy all organic life, it is not impossible, and yet this type of singularity is not even hinted on by the Reapers.
Anon-spacefarying race can very well create synthetics that will cause the singularity and the Reapers would never have seen it coming because they only erradicate spacefarying species and then there's the time they wait before doing so, 50k years, the singularity could occur before that time.

TL,DR: From a narrative point of view the singularity topic seems to come from left field and even then we have to accept the convoluted logic of the Reapers, even the destroy ending is given to us by the StarChild rather than Shepard's defiance.

If any of my points have already been addressed before I apologise and if you could copy your answer/address them again or point me to it I would appreciate it, I'm rocking a rather nasty cold right now and all this letters are making me sick.

*Edited for formatting. I think this forums hates me...

Modifié par SomethingSome, 17 mars 2012 - 06:33 .


#289
Wolven_Soul

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vertigo72 wrote...

Wolven_Soul wrote...

vertigo72 wrote...

pharsti wrote...

You can read what is wrong with the ending everywhere, literally, no need for me to go into details here.

But, to everyone who is perfectly fine with the ending i say this.
First, right now i am so envious of you its not even funny. Its good that you liked it. Its awesome that you can ignore some.... minor inconsistencies and rationalize the ending, its good that you didnt expect anything of what they promised... me? I can not.

Second, since you liked it.... so.... what was up with the Normandy and your squad >_>?



Normandy and squad was transported by a blast of green quantum ionic FTL field into a parallel universe. Or maybe it was Shepard's last dream, in fact they all dead. Or maybe some time passed between Shepard's death and their escape. Or maybe ... Why people want everything explained like in scool? Use your imagination. For me it's not very important because it happens after the logical end of the story.


If I wanted to use my imagination I would read a book, and I do, quite often.  This is a video game, I do not want to speculate on how things might end up after spending hundreds of hours workings towards the resolution.  I want to see some definitive and clear closure for all the time that I spent on this.


Well, good for you. I like to use my imaginatin even in games.


So only people who like to use their imaginations in video games should be able to be satisfied with the endings.? Those of us who want definitive closure should not be happy with how we spent our hundreds of dollars on this series?  Especially since we make up the greatest majority of people who spend said money?

#290
tfKR3W

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http://ts1.mm.bing.n...9f1c4f61a7fa1b4

#291
Meltemph

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SomethingSome wrote...

Hello, first and foremost I would like to apologise if any of this sounds as if I'm attacking you, that's not what I am trying to do and again, I'm sorry if it does, it's hard putting the right emotions in writen words.

vertigo72 wrote...
 
People pick the details but don't see the whole picture. So, there is how I understand the whole story and why I think the ending is very good:


You, Shepard, are here to solve a big problem that you don't even understand before the end. Which is this problem?

The main problem of the ME Universe is that organic life creates syntetic life then tries to destroy it. Always. It's like an axiom in this ME Universe, you have to trust Reapers (and Bioware writers) on that. Syntetic life is like organic life, but it is not limited by the body. Most important thing it is immortal. So any AI can evolve as much as they can, because they don't have time constraints. Because of that they are immensely superior. Also, they don't have emotions, at least not much. So we have this hopeless and very very ancient war, that's our problem.


And this was only presented in the last minutes of the game, yes it was also present in the previous ones and during this one but from a narrative and gameplay stand point this topic of synthetic vs organics had already been resolved and even before that it was a secondary topic never pointed out as a principal one, the union of species and individuals was always far more prevalent, and the idea of the singularity only really appears when speaking with the StarChild.

And the StarChild itself only introduced only in the last moments making everything even more jarring.

The Reapers are not BioWare, they are not all knowing, they are not always right, they are our enemy and we are forced take their logic and solution as correct no matter what.

(Don't say that you didn't see that coming because you fight syntetics in all 3 ME games. Reapers, Geth, husks, indoctrinated people, ...)


You know what else you also always saw in all three games? Comments on the lack of resources and mercenaries wrecking things, the fact that you fought synthetics in all games doesn't compensate the fact that the topic of the singularity is only brought up by the Leader/Will/something of your enemies on the last moments of the game.

You can look at this topic for a more careful analysis of the ending from a screenwriter's point of view: Musings of a Screenwriter: The Ending

AIs are like Legion, they don't really need to fight but they will protect their life. So some ancient AI found a solution: a way to unify synthetic and organic life. The problem with this solution is that AIs don't want to unify themselves with some retards (would you like to unify yourself with your pocket calculator?) Also, they don't want to make a choice themselves, maybe they don't have consensus or something. Also, they don't want to force organics.


So, they gave organics a test: evolve enogh and you will have a choice what to do. To pass the test you have to build a big stick, put it on the Citadel and press a button. That's all. Then you will have 3 choices. You have 50000 years to do it, now go and evolve. Every 50k years we (Reapers) will come and give you an exam. When you fail we will copy your software and some DNA into a new reaper then use you for some purpose.

The Citadel, the little boy, is like the examiner who will judge you. That's why it doesn't inferfere.


And Shepard was the first organic to do it, unify everybody to build the stick and arrive to the exam to press a button.


This is very much your headcanon more than anything else, none of this is truly said by the StarChild and I'd really prefer not to address most of this due to that.
Not that we can do much more than headcanon since BioWare decided that we didn't need any answers for the things they throw on us in the last minutes of the game... <_<

About 3 choices: it's a part of the exam,  only one choice is correct. 


If you choose to destroy or control the Reapers, then the problem will rise again sooner or later. Synthetics will always evolve into AI and the war will start again, eventually new Reapers will be created and so on. 


If you choose to unify both races then there will be no war anymore and only one form of life that will inherit best parts of both forms. Something like immortal people with all their emotions.


So, to ensure that you really really gave the answer you have right to only one answer, after you die. (If you don't choose you die too, as every 50000 years)


That's my view of this story and that's why I believe the ending is perfect, despite some minor problems, like no helmets...


And why would somehow, magically, turn all organics and synthetics into a mix of both be a solution? What's stopping them from creating pure organics again?
Are they being controlled so not to do that?
How does this even affect other organics?
Will this also affect future organic species that weren't caught by the ray? And if yes, how?
How can synthetics be turned into part organic?

And even then you have to accept the logic of the Reapers which is heavily flawed and runs on absolutes.

One can also say that it is certain that organics themselves will create something that will destroy all organic life, it is not impossible, and yet this type of singularity is not even hinted on by the Reapers.
Anon-spacefarying race can very well create synthetics that will cause the singularity and the Reapers would never have seen it coming because they only erradicate spacefarying species and then there's the time they wait before doing so, 50k years, the singularity could occur before that time.

TL,DR: From a narrative point of view the singularity topic seems to come from left field and even then we have to accept the convoluted logic of the Reapers, even the destroy ending is given to us by the StarChild rather than Shepard's defiance.

If any of my points have already been addressed before I apologise and if you could copy your answer/address them again or point me to it I would appreciate it, I'm rocking a rather nasty cold right now and all this letters are making me sick.

*Edited for formatting. I think this forums hates me...


This is going to be ignored... They ignored my post which essetnially proves teh synthetics always kill organics, theory wrong... but it didnt even get a response.  You dont even need to add teh geth or ai into the convo...REAPER are PROOF that synthetics didnt always kill organics.

#292
Wolven_Soul

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vertigo72 wrote...

Wolven_Soul wrote...

vertigo72 wrote...

Szelenas wrote...

T-0pel wrote...

I am not really gonna talk about most of the issues because other people adressed them already. So with that out of the way here is my main problem:

The AI god thing states that reapers are his solution, not some kind of test. The crucible is not his way of testing organics, it is stated that it is a device that was designed by every galactic civilization and every cycle improved upon it. It is something the god AI did not forsee in all its "perfect and inevetable logic".
And the AI clearly states that you maikng it to the citadel and connecting the crucible changed somthing and it proves that his cycle wont work ANYMORE!
So how can you belive this premise synthetics versus organics without question? The AI clearly made a mistake, organics eventually found a way to overcome his cycle. Maybe we are also able to coexist with synthetics? Maybe Shepards intervention with the Geth forever changed everything in synthetics way of thinking? Dont we have the right to tell him that it might have taken milions of years but eventually we managed to overcome his premise?
Just think about it please...

finally,some can think logically



Yes, Reapers created the cycle, which is a temporary solution to the problem until someone, some organic, prove that they are not full retards and manage to bring that big stick to the Citadel. We don't know who started the Crucible, we only know what Proteans said us. They was not the first and they lost. Maybe Reapers gave the plan of the Crucible to the organics, why not? 

Now, maybe you right then you can choose other ending that synthesis and hope it will work. In fact, nobody knows if the synthesis will work, maybe they will start another war tomorrow.


The Reapers are not the actual ones who created the cycle.  The Godchild implies that he created the Reapers to be his solution, therefore implying that he himself is not a Reaper, that he is above them in some way.  Just saying.



Reapers are solution, they are used to control organic population and prevent the destruction of synthetics. But the crucible and  this place with 3 choices, it's clearly a test. It was planned from the beginning: once organics pass the test we propose them to unite. I see it like that.



What I said has nothing to do with your response.  You said the Reapers created the cycle, I corrected you.  Anyway, it is never said that this 'test' of yours is planned from the beginning.  Also, the reapers are not preventing the destruction of synthetics.  In their mind the synthetics are the problem.  If the reapers did not destroy the synthetics along with the organics, then by their logic, organic life would never be able to evolve because those synthetics would have destroyed it.

#293
Wolven_Soul

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vertigo72 wrote...

Vergil_dgk wrote...

For the record, I don't think what is needed is more explanation. I think was is needed is that the final scene with the star-child is cut and the player be given 3 options: 1) Shepard sacrifices himself to save galactic civilization including the Mass Relays. 2) Shepard joins with the Illusive Man and attempts to control the reapers and through them the galaxy - leading to possible indoctrination. 3) Shepard destroys the reapers but does not sacrifice himself. As a result, the relays are destroyed and galactic civilization collapses - but Shepard is free to spend the rest of his life with Liara (or whoever). Those 3 endings present actual, bona-fide choice for the player, ambiguous but satisfying endings each in their own way. We don't really need a thorough explanation of why the reapers do what they do. It would be enough with hints: "we are order, we are your future, we are the pinnacle of evolution etc." - then the fans could "speculate" in a positive way.


I like the actual ending more, because you know, Liara is cute, but creating new forms of life is more fun. 

BTW reapers are invincible by definition and TIM is indoctrinated. 


Oh, and I have better ending! If you played full renegade femshep you have an option to kill the reaprs, kill TIM then have a threesome with Tali and Liara. 


New forms of life should never be created.  They should evolve naturally. because that is just the way that life works.  Yes, that means I think the geth should never have been created in the first place, but that's a whole other barrel of monkeys.

#294
darkiddd

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vertigo72 wrote...

 
People pick the details but don't see the whole picture. So, there is how I understand the whole story and why I think the ending is very good:


You, Shepard, are here to solve a big problem that you don't even understand before the end. Which is this problem?

The main problem of the ME Universe is that organic life creates syntetic life then tries to destroy it. Always. It's like an axiom in this ME Universe, you have to trust Reapers (and Bioware writers) on that. Syntetic life is like organic life, but it is not limited by the body. Most important thing it is immortal. So any AI can evolve as much as they can, because they don't have time constraints. Because of that they are immensely superior. Also, they don't have emotions, at least not much. So we have this hopeless and very very ancient war, that's our problem.


(Don't say that you didn't see that coming because you fight syntetics in all 3 ME games. Reapers, Geth, husks, indoctrinated people, ...)


AIs are like Legion, they don't really need to fight but they will protect their life. So some ancient AI found a solution: a way to unify synthetic and organic life. The problem with this solution is that AIs don't want to unify themselves with some retards (would you like to unify yourself with your pocket calculator?) Also, they don't want to make a choice themselves, maybe they don't have consensus or something. Also, they don't want to force organics.


So, they gave organics a test: evolve enogh and you will have a choice what to do. To pass the test you have to build a big stick, put it on the Citadel and press a button. That's all. Then you will have 3 choices. You have 50000 years to do it, now go and evolve. Every 50k years we (Reapers) will come and give you an exam. When you fail we will copy your software and some DNA into a new reaper then use you for some purpose. 

The Citadel, the little boy, is like the examiner who will judge you. That's why it doesn't inferfere.


And Shepard was the first organic to do it, unify everybody to build the stick and arrive to the exam to press a button.


About 3 choices: it's a part of the exam,  only one choice is correct. 


If you choose to destroy or control the Reapers, then the problem will rise again sooner or later. Synthetics will always evolve into AI and the war will start again, eventually new Reapers will be created and so on. 


If you choose to unify both races then there will be no war anymore and only one form of life that will inherit best parts of both forms. Something like immortal people with all their emotions.


So, to ensure that you really really gave the answer you have right to only one answer, after you die. (If you don't choose you die too, as every 50000 years)


That's my view of this story and that's why I believe the ending is perfect, despite some minor problems, like no helmets...


The problem is that almost nobody (me included) agrees with the catalyst and his view of things. So this choices aren't your choices, they are its choices and by taking one you are destroying everything shepard is in the end. One way to fix this would be to make a long and well executed conversation with the catalyst where you expose your view on things and learn more about the reapers. Then the choice you take would have value, because now is your choice. Bioware failed miserably at this and didn't even notice. 

#295
Wolven_Soul

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vertigo72 wrote...

Mandemon wrote...

vertigo72 wrote...

Vergil_dgk wrote...

For the record, I don't think what is needed is more explanation. I think was is needed is that the final scene with the star-child is cut and the player be given 3 options: 1) Shepard sacrifices himself to save galactic civilization including the Mass Relays. 2) Shepard joins with the Illusive Man and attempts to control the reapers and through them the galaxy - leading to possible indoctrination. 3) Shepard destroys the reapers but does not sacrifice himself. As a result, the relays are destroyed and galactic civilization collapses - but Shepard is free to spend the rest of his life with Liara (or whoever). Those 3 endings present actual, bona-fide choice for the player, ambiguous but satisfying endings each in their own way. We don't really need a thorough explanation of why the reapers do what they do. It would be enough with hints: "we are order, we are your future, we are the pinnacle of evolution etc." - then the fans could "speculate" in a positive way.


I like the actual ending more, because you know, Liara is cute, but creating new forms of life is more fun. 

BTW reapers are invincible by definition and TIM is indoctrinated. 


Ahh, no. Reapers are not 
invincible. If they were, explain why Sovereing needed Geth fleet to occupy Citadel defence. Explain why he needed Saren to close the damn thing. Explain why he was killed. You also see few Reapers getting killed in FMV when the battle starts

Insanely powerfull, yes.  Invincible? Nope


To stay hidden. He was just one Reaper. Also reapers always fight using someone else, it's easier.
All those reapers togehter were invincible. If at the end Shep build a huge gun and kill them it would be a biggest plot-hole in history.


Even together the Reapers are not invincible.  The very fact that they can be destroyed proves this.  That being said, if a more powerful force comes along, then they would be defeated.  Nothing...is invincible. 

#296
Tric

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Meltemph wrote...

This is going to be ignored... They ignored my post which essetnially proves teh synthetics always kill organics, theory wrong... but it didnt even get a response.  You dont even need to add teh geth or ai into the convo...REAPER are PROOF that synthetics didnt always kill organics.


:P I won't exactly be bummed if it is, pretty big wall of text.

I don't exactly disagree with the StarBrat's idea that synthetics will destroy all organic life I just disagree that it needs this solution of the Reapers or that it can be prevented at all or that the singularity even matters in the grand scheme of things.

If one considers the Universe relatively infinite and, relatively eternal then almost everything's bound to happen, but the Brat's solution is heavily flawed and the way BW makes us accept it without fighting back feels like a coup-out.

Modifié par SomethingSome, 17 mars 2012 - 06:47 .


#297
vertigo72

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Wolven_Soul wrote...

vertigo72 wrote...

Mandemon wrote...

vertigo72 wrote...

Mandemon wrote...

vertigo72 wrote...

Mandemon wrote...

 Synthesis makes no sense, because:
1) This spce magic:wizard: has no explanation anywhere.

2) How do you "fuse" synthethic(machine) and organic into new DNA? DNA is inheritly biological. This "solution" assumes that whatever "conflict" that will rise is based on what someone is made of. 

3) "Shepards essence", WTF? Shepard is organic, not synthethic. The Walking Plot Hole says s/he is part synthethic, but as far as I know, there is no trace of anything synthethic in his/her DNA.

4) How this happens? Control and Destroy atleast can handvawe this by having it affect Reaper programming, but this... I mean, pulse goes out and space magic:wizard: does something impossible to DNA?


Synthetics are software, people are some other kind of  computers (biochemical computers), why not to merge them? How? Well, Reapers had millions of years to find out. How it happens? You know, it's a little bit late to ask. You spent 150 hours believing that AI can exist (and Mass Effect fields too), so why this question now? Somehow using FTL core and Mass Effect fields.


Damn I'm late. Anyway, The Walking Plot Hole speficly refers to DNA, not minds. So it doesnät change "software", it changes "hardware". Also, Reapers don't have DNA as far as we know. They melt down biological lifeforms into goo and pump them to serve as brains.

Also, Element Zero and whole Mass Effect is explained in-universe why and how. Also, several times it is explained how AI can exist. EDI has Quantum core, that is like saying she has mechanical version of human brains. Geth, untill Reaper upgrades, are collective of smaller programs that together can achieve larger and larger intelligence. Signular Geth is no smarter than your phone. Thousand Geth working together can form a concessus and appear sentient.

There is limit on how much you can suspend your disbelief. If world remains consistent with itself, it is easier. This thing? Never even theorised in-universe, it simply comes out of nowhere.



Sorry, it's just a good writing. If they really knew *how* AI can exist, we could build one. With good writing they make it appers like it exists. "Quantum core is a mechanical version of human brain" is bull****. All this talk about geth intelligence it's also bull****. It's just that was explained before and the green beam of light wasn't.  

Now, in-universe, Reapers was sitting here for millions of years, they could invent a lot more than that. And it's quite logical they didn't run everywhere telling everybody: look look I have a green beam that rewrites your dna, let me explain how it works. It all makes sense in-universe.


Reapers were sitting here million of years? Nooooope, they were sleeping 49 999 years in dark space outside galaxy, come in for decade or two, wipe out everything above technology level X and get back to dark space for another 49 999 years . Also, the damn Green Beam is not Reaper tech. It's because of the Crucible did something.

Also, how is Geth intelligence or EDI brain in the jar 
bull****? Because we don't have them now? In that case, you are in wrong place. This is Science Fiction, a rather hard one. We do not have magic anywhere else, biotics skip the line but they are explained as tumors created by exposure to Element Zero before birth and require implant to work on humans. Space Magic:wizard: beam has no resemblence to anything.

Also, you still haven't explained how the **** does the beam work? How do you make DNA half-synthethic half-organic?

Let me ask you, if in the final moments of the Star Wars trilogy, after the death of Vader, instead of having scene with Ewoks you had Star child from 2001: Space Odussey? Woudl you still claim it is ok?



Siting in dark space don't mean they was not thinking. You don't have to run to make some science.

We don't know much about Crucible. My theory is that's Reaper tech, see above.

Sorry for the world bull****, I mean it's a lie. But they describet it so well you start to trust it exists. Green Beam is exactly the same thing, except we didn't see it before.  But as I said, why reapers will show it before? 

Honestly speaking, I never seen that movie. I'm more into books, Lem, PKD, Pelevin, Asimov, stuff like that.




It's actually said at one point that the Reapers basically shut themselves down for so many years to conserve energy.  As well it says that Soveriegn wakes himself up every so often to check and see if civilization has progressed far enough to star the cycle again.  If he was awake, I am sure he would know the exact moment and this series of events would have started a lot sooner.



In fact, nobody knows anything about Reapers for sure. Even things we know can be lies or falsifications.

#298
MikeRoz

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 At the climax of ME1, Saren goes on a rant and says the following:

"The relationship is symbiotic. Organic and machine intertwined, a union of flesh and steel. The strengths of both, the weaknesses of neither. I am a vision of the future, Shepard. The evolution of all organic life. This is our destiny. Join Sovereign and experience a true rebirth."

ME1 Shepard rejects this logic and shoots him in the face. (For extra credit, you can get him to shoot himself in the face.)

Now we're supposed to believe that ME3 Shepard does a 180 when vent kid presents the exact same proposition?

#299
2_BR4ZIL_2

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Some people are forgetting that in every ending EVERYONE DIES (ok... only few far out colonies survive), if you take destroy, at least you take down the reapers with you. Also the main problem with the ending is the fact that none of your options did anything, thats why we are angry. By the way OP, if you favor the "Green" ending, your just buying into the Reaper crap of "Union", thats exactly what Saren talked about and you see what happened in the end?

#300
PMC65

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I'm really glad that there are people who enjoyed the ending ... I'm really envious. The ending left me empty and unable to replay the games.

That means that if this is the only ending that Shepard gets ... no further $$$ will be spent on anything ME related.

So to those that liked, loved or were indifferent to the ending ... good for you. I really wish that I could say the same honestly, but I can't.