338 réponses à ce sujet

[billida]

changing the very nature of each living creature in the universe without consent is not a "good" ending to me. It 's playing God, and it is not Shepard's role. Shep is a warrior, not a specialist in rhetorics and theology. This "christic" endings make me mad, all of them.

[vertigo72]

anlk92 wrote...

vertigo72 wrote...

The main problem of the ME Universe is that organic life creates syntetic life then tries to destroy it. Always. It's like an axiom in this ME Universe, you have to trust Reapers (and Bioware writers) on that. 

Wrong. Genocidal starchilds are the main problem of the ME Universe.

So what you're saying is that they can feed us whatever bs they want at the last minutes of the story despite the fact that there are many things contradicting it and we should just be ok with it. I'm sure you'll understand if the majority of players are not willing to do that.

815Sox wrote...

Yes. This is pretty much how l look at it. I have explained this time and time again. You essentially spread Shepards essence throughout the universe, have his energy serve as the basis for a new DNA and usher in the next evolution of life.

No big deal.

Yeah, no big deal:wizard:

This is not a real child. Reaper's boss is a software, don't have a body. He took a friendly face from Shep' memories to create a representation of itself, an avatar. It's like in Neuromancer or Solaris or other scifi books. He could took his mother, Tali, whatever.

Modifié par vertigo72, 17 mars 2012 - 02:28 .

[GholaHalleck]

vertigo72 wrote...

billida wrote...

i just can't understand how synthesis can appear as the better solution.

For 3 entire games, we've learned about diversity, cultural, biological differences and how to live together in peace.
The synthesis ending wipes all that in 10 secondes, making everyone the same, denying all why we fought.

Chaos is evolution, it's life itself.
Synthesis will offer no evolution more 'as says starchild, the "final stage of evolution", it offers no hope for something else.
It's death itself to me. And more, it is the only ending where the reaprs go unharmed.

Yes there is diversity, but all organics are organics and all synthetis are synthetics. Diversity is whithin the same form of life. There is now a new form of life that will have its own diversity. Don't forget that we have access to all the prvious civilizations stored in Reapers too. I think it can be ok for the diversity. And maybe it will be chaos too, we don't know. All we know is that before we had this endless war, 50000 cycle and nothing evolved.

Because we already brought peace to the galaxy, and twisting everyone's DNA to give them TiM eyes is wrong.

It also doesn't change anything.

Now, instead of synthetics wiping out organics, it'll be the Synganics wiping each other out for other reasons. Geth fought other geth before remember? and organics didn't need a reason to shoot each other in the face. it changes nothing. 

And who's to say the Synganics won't make more pure synthetic life that wipes them out for being "Impure"? It's faulty thinking.

[spartan5127]

vertigo72 wrote...

spartan5127 wrote...

If there is a problem between organics and synthetics is not a hardware one, it is mental one.
They think differently. To think that make everyone have the same dna will change anything about this conflict is not in line with what will actually happen.

Unless synthesis changes their way of thinking, in which case, I had no right to make the decision because I am effectively destroying who they are.

This is disregarding the fact that synthetics and organics actually can get along and can work out their differences the same way that any two peoples can work out their differences

After synthesis there will be no organics nor synthetics. There will be a completely new form of life. That's the great point of the ending. You are like half god, you create new life but don't exactly know how it will work. Nobody knows. You litteraly jump into this solution. 

Again, this is assuming that it is the hardware that is causing the inherent conflict between synthetics and organics.  That is a flawed point of view because it is not the hardware the determines the content of our character but our minds.  Call it a new form of life if you want, but unless synthesis changes the way they think (which is wrong and you have no right to do), the two former races still will not get along.  The problem is not solved in the slightest.

[vertigo72]

billida wrote...

changing the very nature of each living creature in the universe without consent is not a "good" ending to me. It 's playing God, and it is not Shepard's role. Shep is a warrior, not a specialist in rhetorics and theology. This "christic" endings make me mad, all of them.

But, but you can choose another one! You can destroy those Reapers (all synthetics?) alltogether! And then why a God can't be a warrior too? For me Shepard is not God, it's like a half-god. He only makes a choice, but he don't implement it and we don't know what it will be hybrid life.

Modifié par vertigo72, 17 mars 2012 - 02:31 .

[novaseeker]

vertigo72 wrote...

novaseeker wrote...

Why, then, is the ending that requires the highest effective EMS score (requiring MP) a version of destroy (i.e., the Shepard breath cutscene)? If that isn't the "best" ending, it would be awfully odd from the game design perspective to make it the hardest to get.

Sorry, I don't know. I just played the synthesis one and it makes perfect sense. Maybe there is some narratiive that explains that, but I didn't play it. 

There isn't.  This is one of the main reasons people are complaining.   Again, your take is that synthesis is the "right answer", but if that's the case, why make one of the versions of the wrong answer be the hardest ending to get?  I understand this isn't what you were getting at, but it nevertheless directly undermines your claim that "synthesis" (which only requires an EMS of ~3000, something which most players will have by simpply playing the game normally) is the "right answer"  (never mind the other serious criticisms that have been raised about the morality of the synthesis choice elsewhere in these forums over the past ten days).

It just doesn't make sense.

[Yakko77]

billida wrote...

changing the very nature of each living creature in the universe without consent is not a "good" ending to me. It 's playing God, and it is not Shepard's role. Shep is a warrior, not a specialist in rhetorics and theology. This "christic" endings make me mad, all of them.

There are writers at Bioware who are big fans apparently of alien intervention in our ancient history and that religion stems from misinterpreting alien encounters or something like that.  Doesn't particularly bother me really as an agnostic/deist but it just really seemed projected is all.

[vertigo72]

spartan5127 wrote...

vertigo72 wrote...

spartan5127 wrote...

If there is a problem between organics and synthetics is not a hardware one, it is mental one.
They think differently. To think that make everyone have the same dna will change anything about this conflict is not in line with what will actually happen.

Unless synthesis changes their way of thinking, in which case, I had no right to make the decision because I am effectively destroying who they are.

This is disregarding the fact that synthetics and organics actually can get along and can work out their differences the same way that any two peoples can work out their differences

After synthesis there will be no organics nor synthetics. There will be a completely new form of life. That's the great point of the ending. You are like half god, you create new life but don't exactly know how it will work. Nobody knows. You litteraly jump into this solution. 

Again, this is assuming that it is the hardware that is causing the inherent conflict between synthetics and organics.  That is a flawed point of view because it is not the hardware the determines the content of our character but our minds.  Call it a new form of life if you want, but unless synthesis changes the way they think (which is wrong and you have no right to do), the two former races still will not get along.  The problem is not solved in the slightest.

Well, our (human) character is detrermined by a lot of biochemical things, like hormones, neurotransmitters, even bacteria. It's not so simple! That's probably why Reapers have to store organic material of each race they harvest. New form of life will be not organic nor synthetic but something other.

[vertigo72]

novaseeker wrote...

vertigo72 wrote...

novaseeker wrote...

Why, then, is the ending that requires the highest effective EMS score (requiring MP) a version of destroy (i.e., the Shepard breath cutscene)? If that isn't the "best" ending, it would be awfully odd from the game design perspective to make it the hardest to get.

Sorry, I don't know. I just played the synthesis one and it makes perfect sense. Maybe there is some narratiive that explains that, but I didn't play it. 

There isn't.  This is one of the main reasons people are complaining.   Again, your take is that synthesis is the "right answer", but if that's the case, why make one of the versions of the wrong answer be the hardest ending to get?  I understand this isn't what you were getting at, but it nevertheless directly undermines your claim that "synthesis" (which only requires an EMS of ~3000, something which most players will have by simpply playing the game normally) is the "right answer"  (never mind the other serious criticisms that have been raised about the morality of the synthesis choice elsewhere in these forums over the past ten days).

It just doesn't make sense.

I don't think it's the right answer, but for me it makes perfect sense for this story. I explained why other endings are not ok for me: you will have the same war again sooner or later.

[Shep]

Ending(s) kinda reminded me of "Neon Genesis Evangelion". Choice given to some single person, and whichever one he picks, all life is screwed and the cycle starts anew. Just under different colored lighting. Sort of.

[Mandemon]

 Synthesis makes no sense, because:
1) This spce magic:wizard: has no explanation anywhere.

2) How do you "fuse" synthethic(machine) and organic into new DNA? DNA is inheritly biological. This "solution" assumes that whatever "conflict" that will rise is based on what someone is made of. 

3) "Shepards essence", WTF? Shepard is organic, not synthethic. The Walking Plot Hole says s/he is part synthethic, but as far as I know, there is no trace of anything synthethic in his/her DNA.

4) How this happens? Control and Destroy atleast can handvawe this by having it affect Reaper programming, but this... I mean, pulse goes out and space magic:wizard: does something impossible to DNA?

Modifié par Mandemon, 17 mars 2012 - 02:41 .

[vertigo72]

GholaHalleck wrote...

vertigo72 wrote...

billida wrote...

i just can't understand how synthesis can appear as the better solution.

For 3 entire games, we've learned about diversity, cultural, biological differences and how to live together in peace.
The synthesis ending wipes all that in 10 secondes, making everyone the same, denying all why we fought.

Chaos is evolution, it's life itself.
Synthesis will offer no evolution more 'as says starchild, the "final stage of evolution", it offers no hope for something else.
It's death itself to me. And more, it is the only ending where the reaprs go unharmed.

Yes there is diversity, but all organics are organics and all synthetis are synthetics. Diversity is whithin the same form of life. There is now a new form of life that will have its own diversity. Don't forget that we have access to all the prvious civilizations stored in Reapers too. I think it can be ok for the diversity. And maybe it will be chaos too, we don't know. All we know is that before we had this endless war, 50000 cycle and nothing evolved.

Because we already brought peace to the galaxy, and twisting everyone's DNA to give them TiM eyes is wrong.

It also doesn't change anything.

Now, instead of synthetics wiping out organics, it'll be the Synganics wiping each other out for other reasons. Geth fought other geth before remember? and organics didn't need a reason to shoot each other in the face. it changes nothing. 

And who's to say the Synganics won't make more pure synthetic life that wipes them out for being "Impure"? It's faulty thinking.

First, they will not be synthetics, nor organics, they will be something else. Second, synthetics didn't wipe other synthetics for millions years, so why start now? And nobody says it will be perfect, but at least it solve present problem and evolution can continue.

[ZeroSum7]

irishScott3 wrote...

vertigo72 wrote...

Doctor Uburian wrote...

But that's not what they promised.

What they promised?

*sigh*
http://www.gameinfor...x=2&PageIndex=2

With the ending in Mass Effect 2, there were so many different
variables and possibilities for the outcome and what could happen. As
players reached the end, they started comparing notes and trying to
figure out how it worked. A few months after it came out, we ran a chart in the magazine
that showed the layout of how to get the different endings and how
things happened. Is that same type of complexity built into the ending
of Mass Effect 3?

Yeah, and I’d say much more so, because we have the ability to build
the endings out in a way that we don’t have to worry about eventually
tying them back together somewhere. This story arc is coming to an end
with this game. That means the endings can be a lot more different. At
this point we’re taking into account so many decisions that you’ve made
as a player and reflecting a lot of that stuff. It’s not even in any way
like the traditional game endings, where you can say how many endings
there are or whether you got ending A, B, or C.

It’s more like there are some really obvious things that are
different and then lots and lots of smaller things, lots of things about
who lives and who dies, civilizations that rose and fell, all the way
down to individual characters. That becomes the state of where you left
your galaxy. The endings have a lot more sophistication and variety in
them. It would be interesting to see if somebody could put together a
chart for that. Even with Mass Effect 2’s...

Whether you got ending A, B, or C........lol

[billida]

bah. If you're ok with 3 depressing endings, good for you. I just can"t identify myself with any if these choices, which is unfortunately the point of any RPG, and was the point of ME till the 10 last minutes.

I chose red by default.

[vertigo72]

Mandemon wrote...

 Synthesis makes no sense, because:
1) This spce magic:wizard: has no explanation anywhere.

2) How do you "fuse" synthethic(machine) and organic into new DNA? DNA is inheritly biological. This "solution" assumes that whatever "conflict" that will rise is based on what someone is made of. 

3) "Shepards essence", WTF? Shepard is organic, not synthethic. The Walking Plot Hole says s/he is part synthethic, but as far as I know, there is no trace of anything synthethic in his/her DNA.

4) How this happens? Control and Destroy atleast can handvawe this by having it affect Reaper programming, but this... I mean, pulse goes out and space magic:wizard: does something impossible to DNA?

Synthetics are software, people are some other kind of  computers (biochemical computers), why not to merge them? How? Well, Reapers had millions of years to find out. How it happens? You know, it's a little bit late to ask. You spent 150 hours believing that AI can exist (and Mass Effect fields too), so why this question now? Somehow using FTL core and Mass Effect fields.

[FoxShadowblade]

Why do I feel like I've argued on countless topics like this one?

Oh, right.

[vertigo72]

billida wrote...

bah. If you're ok with 3 depressing endings, good for you. I just can"t identify myself with any if these choices, which is unfortunately the point of any RPG, and was the point of ME till the 10 last minutes.

I chose red by default.

Honestly, it's not depressive. Really. You do something great and you die like a godless mega-hero. Everybody dies, but not everybody can acomplish such a great thing. In fact, we don't even know if Shepard dies, he just leaps in some kind of light. Not so bad, better then die at 80 from cancer or hearth failure.

[vertigo72]

FoxShadowblade wrote...

Why do I feel like I've argued on countless topics like this one?

Oh, right.

I never did, I was too busy with Demo, MP and then the full game on insanity.

[billida]

YOU think it is not depressing. Let me have my own opinion will you ? I found eveything in the end sad and gloomy.

[novaseeker]

Even leaving aside the inconsistencies and taking it at face value, the main objections to the synthesis ending are (1) dubious morality of usurping the free will and self determination of trillions of sentients in the existing ME universe (they don't get to decide whether to be merged, Shepard does that for them), particularly as Shepard has basically debunked this just a few minutes earlier and (2) you've essentially "reaperized" everything -- the reapers are also hybrids of organics and synthetics, and so now everyone is basically akin to a reaper --> i.e., it's a case of "if you can't beat them, join them". It does the reapers work for them, by hybridizing all life into cyborg form. And who's to say that everyone isn't basically indoctrinated and serving the reapers forever? Certainly the game doesn't give you any comfort about that at all. It may avoid war between synthetics and organics, but at what cost? The cost of possibly serving the reapers and their "boss" forever? And there is also no assurance that the resulting cyborgs won't themselves create pure synthetic servants and recreate the whole "problem" again. So, no real assurances of anything good down the line, and the huge cost being paid of usurping the right of self-determination and autonomy from trillions of lives, organic and synthetic. Seems very dubious to me, to be honest, and more like a reaper trick than anything else.

How it happens? You know, it's a little bit late to ask. You spent 150 hours believing that AI can exist (and Mass Effect fields too), so why this question now? Somehow using FTL core and Mass Effect fields.

Yes, but these are explained in the codex.  All good SF explains its premises well enough to be credible within the confines of its created universe.  That's the distinction between SF and fantasy (and why SW was always more the latter than the former).  ME adhered to this pretty well, because the codex explains technical stuff in sometimes ridiculous detail.  So, the end, having no explanation at all, is very jarring in comparison to the other SF aspects in the game.  It really is "magic" because it is unexplained.

Modifié par novaseeker, 17 mars 2012 - 02:54 .

[vertigo72]

Shep wrote...

Ending(s) kinda reminded me of "Neon Genesis Evangelion". Choice given to some single person, and whichever one he picks, all life is screwed and the cycle starts anew. Just under different colored lighting. Sort of.

We didn't played the same game. As I explained in the begining the choices are very different and at least one of them breaks this Cycle (maybe causes some other kind of cycle, but  different)

[sadako]

vertigo72 wrote...

billida wrote...

bah. If you're ok with 3 depressing endings, good for you. I just can"t identify myself with any if these choices, which is unfortunately the point of any RPG, and was the point of ME till the 10 last minutes.

I chose red by default.

Honestly, it's not depressive. Really. You do something great and you die like a godless mega-hero. Everybody dies, but not everybody can acomplish such a great thing. In fact, we don't even know if Shepard dies, he just leaps in some kind of light. Not so bad, better then die at 80 from cancer or hearth failure.

Same deconstruction animation from ME2 when one of the settler's got processed into Human Reaper. He didn't die. Riiigghttt. Damn my logic.

[xtorma]

vertigo72 wrote...

novaseeker wrote...

vertigo72 wrote...

novaseeker wrote...

Why, then, is the ending that requires the highest effective EMS score (requiring MP) a version of destroy (i.e., the Shepard breath cutscene)? If that isn't the "best" ending, it would be awfully odd from the game design perspective to make it the hardest to get.

Sorry, I don't know. I just played the synthesis one and it makes perfect sense. Maybe there is some narratiive that explains that, but I didn't play it. 

There isn't.  This is one of the main reasons people are complaining.   Again, your take is that synthesis is the "right answer", but if that's the case, why make one of the versions of the wrong answer be the hardest ending to get?  I understand this isn't what you were getting at, but it nevertheless directly undermines your claim that "synthesis" (which only requires an EMS of ~3000, something which most players will have by simpply playing the game normally) is the "right answer"  (never mind the other serious criticisms that have been raised about the morality of the synthesis choice elsewhere in these forums over the past ten days).

It just doesn't make sense.

I don't think it's the right answer, but for me it makes perfect sense for this story. I explained why other endings are not ok for me: you will have the same war again sooner or later.

Just because you choose synthisis, does not mean there will not be more wars, and that one group will not eventually take complete control. Unless you believe that synthisis will change the way bio thinks. If you believe that , then what you are doing is just horrible.

[vertigo72]

novaseeker wrote...

Even leaving aside the inconsistencies and taking it at face value, the main objections to the synthesis ending are (1) dubious morality of usurping the free will and self determination of trillions of sentients in the existing ME universe (they don't get to decide whether to be merged, Shepard does that for them), particularly as Shepard has basically debunked this just a few minutes earlier and (2) you've essentially "reaperized" everything -- the reapers are also hybrids of organics and synthetics, and so now everyone is basically akin to a reaper --> i.e., it's a case of "if you can't beat them, join them". It does the reapers work for them, by hybridizing all life into cyborg form. And who's to say that everyone isn't basically indoctrinated and serving the reapers forever? Certainly the game doesn't give you any comfort about that at all. It may avoid war between synthetics and organics, but at what cost? The cost of possibly serving the reapers and their "boss" forever? And there is also no assurance that the resulting cyborgs won't themselves create pure synthetic servants and recreate the whole "problem" again. So, no real assurances of anything good down the line, and the huge cost being paid of usurping the right of self-determination and autonomy from trillions of lives, organic and synthetic. Seems very dubious to me, to be honest, and more like a reaper trick than anything else.

Good, you see that make you think. Not so many videogames achieve this goal. Because, all this ME Universe it's basically a lot of bs: reaprs, ai, mass effects ..., but it makes me think. That's why I love ME series.

[vertigo72]

xtorma wrote...

vertigo72 wrote...

novaseeker wrote...

vertigo72 wrote...

novaseeker wrote...

Why, then, is the ending that requires the highest effective EMS score (requiring MP) a version of destroy (i.e., the Shepard breath cutscene)? If that isn't the "best" ending, it would be awfully odd from the game design perspective to make it the hardest to get.

Sorry, I don't know. I just played the synthesis one and it makes perfect sense. Maybe there is some narratiive that explains that, but I didn't play it. 

There isn't.  This is one of the main reasons people are complaining.   Again, your take is that synthesis is the "right answer", but if that's the case, why make one of the versions of the wrong answer be the hardest ending to get?  I understand this isn't what you were getting at, but it nevertheless directly undermines your claim that "synthesis" (which only requires an EMS of ~3000, something which most players will have by simpply playing the game normally) is the "right answer"  (never mind the other serious criticisms that have been raised about the morality of the synthesis choice elsewhere in these forums over the past ten days).

It just doesn't make sense.

I don't think it's the right answer, but for me it makes perfect sense for this story. I explained why other endings are not ok for me: you will have the same war again sooner or later.

Just because you choose synthisis, does not mean there will not be more wars, and that one group will not eventually take complete control. Unless you believe that synthisis will change the way bio thinks. If you believe that , then what you are doing is just horrible.

No, as I said, it only solves the current problem of  "Reaper cycle" (which was also a solution to another problem) so we will have another problem but at least we will evolve, probably.