127 réponses à ce sujet

[drhys23]

man oh man! just wanna say that the op was almost exactly what i was thinking when i beat the game. the green ending made so much sense for my shep. guess i sort of used my own imagination to fill in the gaps. the battle was going very very bad, which i could see from the crucible deck (ship debris etc), so i figured that they were retreating. just my opinion though. good to see that i wasnt the only one.

[lakdav]

In my first playthrough i choose green, pretty much for the reasons noted in the OP. I felt empty but relativly satisfied, but also noted the many problems with the ending sequence, like the Normandy running away and having Liara back on the ship. Then i started to read the forums here about the endings, discovered even more problems about them, becouse...well they are true. This degraded my own appreciation of the supposed perfect ending for my femshep. I actualy had to replay that one character from the start to have her get the destroy&survive ending JUST IN CASE the indoc theory turns out well. I needed to start over so that she doesnt seem to turn from 'Peace between machine and organic' to 'Smash the machines' in the last 2 minutes. And why? Becouse even with its flaws the theory makes more sense than the actual endings everything considered.

That is not a sign of good writing. While i agree with many things the OP mentioned, i still dont consider this a well-made ending. The concept of it might be great, thats why i choose it the first time around. But the execution is sloppy and redundant, and other game series (Deus Ex) executed it much better, becouse it had that focus in the entire game on what is the greatest dilemma in it.

The whole problem as i see it is that all your previous choices are nothing compared to the last minute greatest choice. Correct me if im wrong but i think many of us would have been much happier with CLEARLY one ending, but having a sense of accomplishment about everything we did in the series. You know, like DA:Origins. Oh, right and it should make sense, thats kinda important too.

I mean i just cant get how they could mess it up like this. After seeing how many little flags were imported from ME1 to ME2, i sincerely thought that everything i do in ME3 will impact the very ending. Instead everything i did was reduced into a two digit number on a 3 digit scale. I expected the spared colonists of Zhu's Hope will evolve into something not altogether human, i expected the rewriting of the geth to be a major point in the dilemma between them and the quarians and even the Reapers. I expected my single choice of destroying Maelon's data would result in Eve's death which would result in Wrex having much more problems with the krogan's thirst for vengance some times later. And then how this all comes together with the Rachni queen, them constantly being stated as the worst thing that happened in this cycle.

But no, im just filling up a bar. I guess ill just go and pour some water for myself and feel real freakin satisifed about it.
/rant

[DarkRavin07]

The ending still does not explain:

1. How did joker retrieve the crew that you brought down to Earth with you
2. Why he was running in first place. Last I checked, in the cut seen of the explosion still showed the fleet there fighting. Means joker started running before light show began.
3. Even in its prime the sol solar system could not support a fleet / population that large, much less the shape the reapers left it in. What will happen to all the races that helped you.
4. What happen to all your friends after the fight? Gunt / Zaeed / ect...

5. I could keep going on about the issues, but I will just stop before i start ranting....

[Tocquevillain]

Someone With Mass wrote...

ashwind wrote...

Okay, then how come EDI steps out of the crashed Normandy even in the Destroy ending

Never happen like this for me. How I wish I can get to see EDI after I pick Destroy. Then I can be 100% sure the Catalyst is CAKE.

As for the Catalyst/Reapers's purpose, people have commit genocide for sillier reasons. They think they are right, they think they know everything. It does not have to make sense. Their reason could be as simple as: We just feel like it. You dont like it? Try to stop us then.

While that is true, you have to remember that we're talking about an AI that's hopefully going by the more logical choices. If they're so smart, then why couldn't they find a more permanent solution that doesn't involve mass genocide?

Reapers are order. Organics are chaos. Reapers accept that organics are good. They let them roam free, but the chaos of organics will always result in synthetics that can kill chaos forever by killing organics. So the Reapers kill organics that create synethetics, and let new organics evolve and grow and have their time.

You're looking for a more permanent solution, but if the Reapers are going to protect organics, how else can you do it? If you're going to let people live, they're gonna do things that you may not like or may not be good for them, so their solution is to kill them after they've reached a certain pinnacle in technological development so that the advanced organics of one cycle don't ruin life for all the species that will come to be.

And it was working for millions of years as the Prothean VI at Cronos Station said.

[DarkRavin07]

Tocquevillain wrote...

Reapers are order. Organics are chaos. Reapers accept that organics are good. They let them roam free, but the chaos of organics will always result in synthetics that can kill chaos forever by killing organics. So the Reapers kill organics that create synethetics, and let new organics evolve and grow and have their time.

You're looking for a more permanent solution, but if the Reapers are going to protect organics, how else can you do it? If you're going to let people live, they're gonna do things that you may not like or may not be good for them, so their solution is to kill them after they've reached a certain pinnacle in technological development so that the advanced organics of one cycle don't ruin life for all the species that will come to be.

And it was working for millions of years as the Prothean VI at Cronos Station said.

So why won't the Reapers just slap the Organics hands and destory their synthetic creations?  Would that not fix the problem.  The Reapers logic is flawed, there can be no questioning that. 

Modifié par DarkRavin07, 19 mars 2012 - 10:12 .

[Greywinter]

i see most people are complaining about incoherent cutscenes at the end, rather than the concept behind the conclusion of shepard's tale, and i totally agree with this fact that the end-game cutscenes were ambiguous and incoherent at best.

We need coherent and sensible end game cutscenes, which reflect the impact of each choice clearly rather than employing different colour palettes to emphasize the distinction between available choices.

[Tocquevillain]

DarkRavin07 wrote...

Tocquevillain wrote...

Reapers are order. Organics are chaos. Reapers accept that organics are good. They let them roam free, but the chaos of organics will always result in synthetics that can kill chaos forever by killing organics. So the Reapers kill organics that create synethetics, and let new organics evolve and grow and have their time.

You're looking for a more permanent solution, but if the Reapers are going to protect organics, how else can you do it? If you're going to let people live, they're gonna do things that you may not like or may not be good for them, so their solution is to kill them after they've reached a certain pinnacle in technological development so that the advanced organics of one cycle don't ruin life for all the species that will come to be.

And it was working for millions of years as the Prothean VI at Cronos Station said.

So why won't the Reapers just slap the Organics hands and destory their synthetic creations?  Would that not fix the problem.  The Reapers logic is flawed, there can be no questioning that. 

Really? You don't like it when someone tells you "you can't have this" or "things have to be this way", otherwise you and everyone else wouldn't be up in arms against Bioware over the ending. Why would the advanced species of the galaxy take that either? They might outwardly appear to acquiesce to the Reapers' demands, but it's also easy to see how that would utterly cripple them. Think of the large role VI/AI plays in ME. The advanced species would begin to try to figure out how to control or subvert the Reapers' influence, or try to destroy them (ring any bells? TIM!) 

Their beliefs are ultimately proven to be flawed, but only after countless cycles and millions of years of trying to build the Crucible.

[Jerrybnsn]

I choose.....green! Shepard's destiny has been fullfilled. The game does not need to continue on at this point. Time to move on to the next IP. Thank you Bioware.

[Dangerfoot]

Yep, their beliefs are flawed, but Shepard is just so impressed with their robot god child that he decides to listen to them anyway.

[saracen16]

AtlasMickey wrote...

The apparent sameness of the endings and lack of choice is a statement about inevitability regarding organics and synthetics. 

The Catalyst believes that conflict between organics and synthetics is inevitable. Most people in the Mass Effect universe share this view, evidenced by the fact that the creation of AI is illegal and considered so dangerous that it's spoken of in hushed tones. However, making something illegal does not stop it from happening, particularly with something so amazing and life-changing as AI. Its creation is inevitable, because it's just so valuable.

It's simply irresistable, because we seek to understand ourselves. As we understand our own intelligence and model it on computers with ever greater accuracy, we reproduce sentient life as a matter of course. 

Or we will modify our own biology, perhaps even from birth, so much that over time we may appear to be every bit synthetic as organic, indistinguishable from an advanced AI. This too is irresistable because we will always be seeking greater health, intelligence, creativity, and strength. As long as technology offers a moral means to do so, that does not infringe on the rights to life and liberty of others, we will do so. It's inevitable.

Apparently in the Mass Effect universe, organics are far more likely to develop advanced AI first before modifying their biology to appear synthetic. Otherwise the Catalyst would not see so much conflict as to think it inevitable. This makes some intuitive sense. Intelligence and the prefrontal cortex itself may be simpler than the entire biological organism. Indeed as a subset they are simpler, but who knows, really, by what degree the part is reliant on the whole. 

Even if this is true, that synthetic life is created before organic synthesis and conflict with organics results, so to is its resolution through organic synthesis. There is no other way for the conflict to end, for even if there were no conflict, peaceful synthesis would be the result anyway. 

It's our destiny as intelligent life to use our intelligence to further our ends, to increase our lifespan, improve communication, explore new possibilities, create love, and achieve peace. Transcending our biological limitations and directing our own evolution does not in any way mean abandoning individual autonomy, our rights to life and liberty, and our sense of free will. We will still be human but also more. Some refer to this as "transhuman." Mass Effect refers to it as "Synthesis."

"Synthesis is the final evolution of life."

He's right. Synthesized life may progress even further to new forms of existence but there's no doubting that biological evolution through natural selection stops at the creation of synthesized life.

So those are the words of the Catalyst, the intelligence who controls the Reapers, and because of that some believe that choosing the Synthesis ending is submission to Reapers, as if this was the Catalyst's plan all the long. This is manifestly untrue, because the Catalyst only makes this suggestion because of Shepard's presence with the Crucible after uniting organic and synthetic life into a very large alliance. Indeed the Catalyst says it wasn't even a possibility until that moment and furthermore he needs Shepard willingness to do it. 

Once again, he needs Shepard's choice-- not indoctrination. It cannot be done against Shepard's will. 

So Shepard has the option to murder innocent life (EDI and Geth) by choosing destroy, or to sacrifice all that she is to order the Reapers to retreat against their will by choosing control, or be the vanguard of love and peace she was throughout the whole series, infusing the Crucible's energy with her compassion, and discharging it through the cosmos. She gives all life, organic and synthetic, the opportunity to have the best of both worlds, with the power and freedom to construct their lives as they see fit. 

That is the destiny of life, to live in freedom, peace, and propersity through intelligence, love, and compassion.

The beautiful thing about the Mass Effect universe is that it draws you in to its world while making you think about this one. Deus Ex did the same for me as well, but we're not talking about Deus Ex. We're talking about a franchise that has let us shape our personal experiences and make us reflect on how our choices will shape the future of that galaxy after we're gone. Life parallels to it in so many ways: we should have the guts to make our own choices and accept the consequences.

Beautiful post. I like how you viewed the ME3 ending. It's not the same as I viewed it (I thought more about the "What will happen to the Krogans and Salarians now that I cured the genophage and synthesis was established?" stuff [i.e. details]), but you managed to get a good message out of it.

[Tocquevillain]

Dangerfoot wrote...

Yep, their beliefs are flawed, but Shepard is just so impressed with their robot god child that he decides to listen to them anyway.

As opposed to...?

[Ryokun1989]

Beautiful post, AtlasMickey! This represents exactly my feelings of what the final choices meant.

Just one thing; this was the obvious choice for YOU and YOUR Shepard. Other Shepards might think that Organics don't need Synthetics and choose Destroy. People on this very forum have shown to have no problem with this!

Yet other Shepards may believe that Control is the best option. The belief that Synthesis makes us not transhuman but less-human is a valid one.

This means to me that the final choice is a real choice. What is the best option really depends on your own beliefs with regard to the question.

[BLY78NOR]

My biggest problem with the ending is Ash walking out of the Normandy without a scratch, she was in my party when i got hit by Harbinger

[Natureguy85]

AtlasMickey wrote...


So Shepard has the option to
murder innocent life (EDI and Geth) by choosing destroy, or to sacrifice
all that she is to order the Reapers to retreat against their will by
choosing control, or be the vanguard of love and peace she was
throughout the whole series, infusing the Crucible's energy with her
compassion, and discharging it through the cosmos. She gives all life,
organic and synthetic, the opportunity to have the best of both worlds,
with the power and freedom to construct their lives as they see fit. 

That is the destiny of life, to live in freedom, peace, and propersity through intelligence, love, and compassion.

I guess we can forget how Shepard says "I think we'd rather keep our own form", right?

AtlasMickey wrote...

DarkRavin07 wrote...

Why was joker running?

To save the lives of the people aboard Normandy. If you saw the Citadel explode in an orb of light, and you were my pilot, I'd hope you do the same. AtreiyaN7 says it best and, if you need more regarding Joker, you should follow her posts. Joker blames himself for Shepard's death at the beginning of ME2. Maybe he learned from that mistake.

What space magic got my crew onto Normandy?

No magic, just an ordinary shuttle. They were either ordered to retreat or left on their own volition. They all said their good-byes and expressed their reluctance to be part of yet another suicide mission.

If you had a fondness for your love interest, or liked any of the other characters, it would not have been right to ask them to be part of a second suicide mission.

No Relays, how will the sol solar system support a fleet of that size?

The destruction of the relays is a major inconvenience but in the long run worth the price, particularly in the Synthesis ending. With the knowledge of the Reapers and organic life still intact and coexisting peacefully, they have the opportunity to create something even better than the relays, since the primary purpose of the relays was to manipulate the development of the younger races. More about the relays in this thread.

What happens to all your crew, you'll squadmates, friends.. ect?

Details. They all had and will continue to have lives of their own. Although it seems clear that Joker and EDI are symbolic Adam and Eve figures for a new age of galactic peace and love. 

Not to dismiss this question, though, because the complexity in answering it is why the story ends at that point. We really can't imagine what Synethesized life will be like. They will do so things so amazing and so advanced that it will be beyond our comprehension. Many scientists use the word "technological singularity" to describe this event, comparing it to the event horizon of the singularity of a black hole, a horizon which we can't see beyond. 

The story ends there because that's where our ability to tell the story ends. It couldn't have ended any other way.

This is called filling in the gaps. You took what they gave you and just filled in the gap with the "only way'. That doesn't make it fit or make sense. The conclusion should come from the path, you shouldn't have to figure out the path from the conclusion. You have nothing to base any of this on other than you can't figure out another way to explain how to get to the given end point. It's cheap writing.

[Ryokun1989]

Natureguy85 wrote...

AtlasMickey wrote...


So Shepard has the option to
murder innocent life (EDI and Geth) by choosing destroy, or to sacrifice
all that she is to order the Reapers to retreat against their will by
choosing control, or be the vanguard of love and peace she was
throughout the whole series, infusing the Crucible's energy with her
compassion, and discharging it through the cosmos. She gives all life,
organic and synthetic, the opportunity to have the best of both worlds,
with the power and freedom to construct their lives as they see fit. 

That is the destiny of life, to live in freedom, peace, and propersity through intelligence, love, and compassion.

I guess we can forget how Shepard says "I think we'd rather keep our own form", right?

Erm.. and they do? Look at them when they get out of the Normandy.. how different are they?
Synthesis merely lifts the distinction between organic and synthetic. It doesn't change anyone's forms.

[Mojenator12345]

Ryokun1989 wrote...

Erm.. and they do? Look at them when they get out of the Normandy.. how different are they?
Synthesis merely lifts the distinction between organic and synthetic. It doesn't change anyone's forms.

Honestly, WTF does that mean?  This is why I couldn't choose synthesis (or actually, I did choose it the first time, and was like seriously WTF just happened and went back and re-did, chose red ending).  It makes no sense.  If everyone is just the same as they were before, how did Starchild merge the distinction?  Someone just waved a wand and declared all organics synthetic and all synthetics are organic?  And all lived happily ever after?  Do the people have wires and processors now?  Do the geth have beating hearts in their chests?  Are human memories and cognitive abilities (and their previous identities) still intact?  Or has Shepard just committed galactic genocide and all of the previous beings have essentially been replaced with new hybrid beings.  Are all the species now officially merged into a single species?  Can they still reproduce organically, or do they need to build people factories (if so, I will LOL re: Krogans and the Genophage)?  And if we're talking about restructuring an entire organism at the molecular level, how the **** does a colored shockwave instantaneously accomplish that?  The whole rebuilding Shepard thing was ridiculous, but at least that was just one person and it took two years, a whole scientific team, and ****loads of money.  That was silly, but tolerable.  The synthesis ending is just so much unexplained magical bull**** stacked one layer on top of the other that I couldn't stomach it.

[Ryokun1989]

Mojenator12345 wrote...

Ryokun1989 wrote...

Erm.. and they do? Look at them when they get out of the Normandy.. how different are they?
Synthesis merely lifts the distinction between organic and synthetic. It doesn't change anyone's forms.

Honestly, WTF does that mean?  This is why I couldn't choose synthesis (or actually, I did choose it the first time, and was like seriously WTF just happened and went back and re-did, chose red ending).  It makes no sense.  If everyone is just the same as they were before, how did Starchild merge the distinction?  Someone just waved a wand and declared all organics synthetic and all synthetics are organic?  And all lived happily ever after?  Do the people have wires and processors now?  Do the geth have beating hearts in their chests?  Are human memories and cognitive abilities (and their previous identities) still intact?  Or has Shepard just committed galactic genocide and all of the previous beings have essentially been replaced with new hybrid beings.  Are all the species now officially merged into a single species?  Can they still reproduce organically, or do they need to build people factories (if so, I will LOL re: Krogans and the Genophage)?  And if we're talking about restructuring an entire organism at the molecular level, how the **** does a colored shockwave instantaneously accomplish that?  The whole rebuilding Shepard thing was ridiculous, but at least that was just one person and it took two years, a whole scientific team, and ****loads of money.  That was silly, but tolerable.  The synthesis ending is just so much unexplained magical bull**** stacked one layer on top of the other that I couldn't stomach it.

Please also read the link in my signature. It probably won't make you accept what I'm saying, but perhaps it can shed some light on where I'm coming from.

[Naoe]

It couldn't end in any other way? How about:
Forget the protean device - we have no idea what it'll do and the most important part is MISSING! Make a sleeper ship/facility, stock it with enough DNA samples for cloning a viable population. Make Shep buy enough time for Hackett to do this.
This way we could have epic battles for time, critical resources, DNA samples of every species we decide to save, paths to good hiding places, 50 000 years to prepare for the next invasion and... An ending where the deaths of Shep and everyone who stayed with him would be something to brag about (you could have an end where Garrus knocks you and your love interest out cold and puts you on 1 of the sleeper ships too... just a thought).

Modifié par Naoe, 19 mars 2012 - 07:23 .

[Richard 060]

AtlasMickey wrote...

<snip>

"Synthesis is the final evolution of life."

He's right. Synthesized life may progress even further to new forms of existence but there's no doubting that biological evolution through natural selection stops at the creation of synthesized life.

<snip>

This sort of thing is my personal beef with the endings (other than being an example of a poorly-realised plot macguffin in action...) - there's science, there's necessary use of 'pseudo-science' and suspension of disbelief for storytelling purposes...

...and then there's completely un-scientific bull**** like 'synthesis', as explained by the Catalyst.

It's stretching 'dramatic license' to breaking point to assume that 'magic space rays' can somehow slap a glowing green texture on everyone, and suddenly, BANG! All organics now have synthetic attributes (unlikely, but whatever...), and all synthetics now have organic DNA in them... ...what the deuce?!?

Are you seriously trying to tell me that the magical plot light can somehow graft genetic material on to a robot? It's one thing to create cyborgs with synthetically-created components that are designed to act in the same way as organic tissue/organs, but EDI (for an example), is in a traditional, sci-fi staple 'tin man' body. Short of going the way of the Borg from Star Trek, how are you going to incorporate DNA into that? Nothing short of divine intervention, it seems.


Oh, and on a similar note, both the quotes on evolution above prove... ...that neither the poster nor whoever wrote the Catalyst's dialogue actually understand what 'evolution' is:


"Synthesis is the final evolution of life" - er, no. The driving precept of 'natural selection' is that it's a constant reaction to environmental changes. To assume a 'final' stage of the evolutionary process is to assume that eventually, EVERYTHING in the universe will reach a fixed, unchanging status quo until the end of time. Which, of course, is impossible.

Similarly, if it's an inevitability, then it's not 'evolution' - evolution, again, is 'reaction'. If 'synthesis' is guaranteed, then it's going to happen, regardless of outside influence. That's 'evolution' as defined by the Pokemon games - NOT real-world science.

And finally, life-forms won't stop evolving if they manage to create true synthetic life, for the reasons stated above. If anything, the creation of a new variable to react to (i.e. synthetic life) will drastically alter the course of natural selection - evolutionary viability will from thence forth be in part defined by how well certain lifeforms adapt to an environment that includes synthetics (or not). Any environmental change will affect the course of evolution, so there's no way that this particular happening would be any different.



So yeah - in short, that's something that rankles the living s**t out of me - the fact that the end of this series is defined, in part at least, by some writer not knowing what they're talking about. And that's before we start on the way that the entire war effort gets turned into a percentage multiplyer that magically changes the intensity of the beam in the final cutscene (seriously - a higher EMS, based on things like which fleets are present, changes the 'death ray' to only affect Reapers, while not having the Geth Armada on-side causes the beam to vaporise the ground troops as well? Really?!?)...

[Bio D]

I'm not even going to touch how scientific or plausible it is.
What I am going to do is say that Synthesis homogonized the **** out of a Galaxy we proved didn't need it. The Geth are cool with us, EDI is cool with us, and we're cool with them. Kind of like Javik warned against, btw.
Any use of the Crucible is at the behest of Starchild, not our own. We don't get to question, we merely get to choose how we help the Reapers, or the thing that made them, or whatever the hell that was. We get to choose the path to hell and then we get to say thank you.

[Straw_foot]

"Synthesized life may progress even further to new forms of existence but there's no doubting that biological evolution through natural selection stops at the creation of synthesized life."

It absolutely is doubtful.

[coldlogic82]

So, no matter what you do, the relays get destroyed. I'm glad to see the loving and compassionate thing to do is doom 80% of the galaxy to a slow and painful death via starvation.

Also, all your explanations to the serious gaps, like Joker being the relay system, require false information. Yeah, maybe, and that's a big maybe, he'd run if he saw the citadel explode. But the citadel explodes AFTER you make your choice and send magic space light into the relay system.

The really huge horrific problem though, is how anyone can seriously be happy with an ending wherein MOST of the universe will die slowly and painfully. Including all the altruistic heroes battling at Earth. Given the concentration of that army on a now burning planet, they'll probably resort to cannibalism first. Warms your heart, doesn't it?

[Ryokun1989]

coldlogic82 wrote...

So, no matter what you do, the relays get destroyed. I'm glad to see the loving and compassionate thing to do is doom 80% of the galaxy to a slow and painful death via starvation.

Also, all your explanations to the serious gaps, like Joker being the relay system, require false information. Yeah, maybe, and that's a big maybe, he'd run if he saw the citadel explode. But the citadel explodes AFTER you make your choice and send magic space light into the relay system.

The really huge horrific problem though, is how anyone can seriously be happy with an ending wherein MOST of the universe will die slowly and painfully. Including all the altruistic heroes battling at Earth. Given the concentration of that army on a now burning planet, they'll probably resort to cannibalism first. Warms your heart, doesn't it?

If there's one thing about the ending that's REALLY inevitable, it's the destruction of the Mass Relays.
They were placed there by the Reapers in order to do the whole cycle thing.
If the Reapers go, the Mass Relays go.

[Natureguy85]

Ryokun1989 wrote...

Natureguy85 wrote...


I guess we can forget how Shepard says "I think we'd rather keep our own form", right?

Erm.. and they do? Look at them when they get out of the Normandy.. how different are they?
Synthesis merely lifts the distinction between organic and synthetic. It doesn't change anyone's forms.

Ok so you're saying that because they look the same, that's all that matters? Never mind the green skin or whatever synthesis actually means. Shepard wasn't referring to physical appearance. He meant fundamentally they wanted to stay as they were.

Ryokun1989 wrote...

If there's one thing about the ending that's REALLY inevitable, it's the destruction of the Mass Relays.
They were placed there by the Reapers in order to do the whole cycle thing.
If the Reapers go, the Mass Relays go.

That's not at all necessary. Why can't the Reapers themselves just go? It's
not like we have to wipe every trace of them from the galaxy. We didn't
go back in time to kill the first Reaper or whatever Star kid is from.

[GuardianofSouls]

I still want to know why Joker had to type on the display super fast simply to increase speed on the ship and manage barriers. Surely the barriers and throttle are not so complex you need to type a hundred words per minute.