127 réponses à ce sujet

[fadi_efendi]

I finished the game today and felt greatly impressed by the ending. I found Shepard's transformation in the last scenes remarkable and touching: No longer a super-human, (s)he staggers, is losing blood, can't aim properly, in fact doesn't even have enough strength to mourn when Anderson expires just next to him. But I found the final sequence, and the choices I was presented with, unsatisfactory. I'll try to explain why - and I'll stick to the wider considerations and not to the existing and obvious inconsistencies in the end scene.

1) All Mass Effect endings present the player with a moral choice. In ME1, they can choose between playing nice with the rest of the galaxy, stubbornly moronic may they be, or deciding humans can do it best. In ME2 the choice was on whether the end (saving the galaxy from destruction) glorified the means (pumping liquified humans into a Reaper hybrid). In ME3 one can choose between temporary destruction of synthetics, their control or the synthesis between synths and organics - note that there's a score of grave consequences, like death of hero and the destruction of the relay system which is common for all.
I can very much relate with the first two dilemmas - one's narrow interests and the collective will; ends and means. Why would I relate to the matter of synthetics and organics? All the more, since the consequences as seen in the ending video are almost the same.

2) The relation between organics and synthetics has been present to all games, but not the only or the most central one. The geths acquire a "human face" only in ME2, and even then their sub-plot is just that - as important as the genophage, or your stance on Cerberus. ME3 introduces EDI's body and past, but this doesn't change much. Shepard's position regarding organics and synthetics is clarified on Rannoch. Choose quarians. geths or co-existence. This should be the end of it. Note that during all this, coexiting with the Reapers is off the table, and they are considered the ultimate enemies even by other synthetics, i.e. both EDI and the Geth.

3) The final choice of ME3 is resolved in a spatial void. Shepard's confrontation with the Catalyst, the logic behind the Reapers, the brains behind the murder, dismemberment, vaporisation and liquification of tens of millions, is nothing but surreal. I feel for the commander, who's so exhausted who can't get properly mad at our tormentor. However, if everything becomes so removed just before the end, what happens to the moral impact of what has occured so far? If it's all about a riddle-like "solution", why have we been going all on how repulsive the Reapers' or Cerberus's actions were? Shepard even ends up saying "So the Illusion Man had been right after all?" - and this is the "Paragon" option!

PS: I said I'd avoid inconsistencies, but I can't restrain myself from this one. Since in the end nothing is played out in a blaze of guns, why is the ending determined by War Assets? Unless the Catalyst is only convinced to grant us a new solution because of the power of our guns.

[trembli0s]

 The synthesis ending is metaphysical garbage, nothing more.

You know WHY a lot of people enjoyed this game? Because although it was science-fiction the VAST majority of the games' "ideas" were realistically grounded and explained.

Other life in the galaxy? Reasonable and background is provided on different races.
FTL travel and biotics? Eezo, an element, that at least an ATTEMPT is made to explain.
Reapers? Mean ****s from the future, check.

Synthesis? 

or be the vanguard of love and peace she was throughout the whole series, infusing the Crucible's energy with her compassion, and discharging it through the cosmos. 

Yeah, disbelief NOT suspended because we have reached spacemagic techno-babble bull**** levels.

Modifié par trembli0s, 19 mars 2012 - 11:20 .

[jvara]

The Synthesis ending is even more nonsensical than the rest, if we accept the fact that just reapers were merged with the rest of the galaxy, both with synthetic and organic, then wtf do former synthetic have of organic now? And don't tell me that Reapers were partially organic, all they did have of organic were their "brain". And if every synthetic being in the galaxy is chewed and merged with the organics, then wtf does EDI survive that ending?.

In any case I don't even think you should have any kind of choices at the ending of ME3, it should be just like DA:O, you get to the end of the game, ****ing finish it, and then depending on what you have or haven't done throughout the whole ****ing series you get one ending or another. Not gren, blue, red ABC ****ing synthesis bull****, no paragon, renegade or idiotic nonsesical crap, just end the ****ing  game and get what you deserve for your choices, Period.

In any case, you do like, I'm glad for you, I wish I could have enjoyed, but don't try to explain us just how wonderful and original this crap is, not wonderful and not by chance even near to be somewhat close to original, mostly because of the fact that Bioware already did their "Tragic Hero Story" and it's called Dragon Age, wich was by far much darker that ME ever was, and even there you had the chance for a "happy ending", bah, **** it, I'm just sick of having to go through this yet again.

Enjoy the ending as much as you will.

[l3ol3o]

To me, out of all the endings, the only one that felt right was controlling the reapers. The entire purpose of the game was to save civilization and end the war with AI's.

Destroying the reapers solves the problem for a little bit. The reapers are gone, but like Stargodchild said, new AI's will be created again and the war will start once again. IMO this isn't acceptable. With this ending, you are only winning a battle against Synthetics and not the war.

Synthesising with end the war, but it will change civilization as we know it. Organics will be no more and life will be totally different.

Out of all the options I think controlling the reapers is the best of the three options. Let me state that I would have liked more choices but I since we don't, I will talk about why I favored this ending. To control the reapers, Shepard had to sacrafice himself. I have no problem with this and expected this.

With Shepard in control of the reapers though, civilization can live on. Shepard can even use the reapers to help rebuild earth and eventually rebuild the Mass Effect relays. When Organics eventually create synthetics again, Shepard can roll in with his Reapers and wipe out the new synthetics to save Organics once again. He can protect humanity and the rest of the galaxy from other threats by using the reapers.

Keep in mind that the Stargodchild also mentioned that the reapers harvested and stored all of the past cycles to make room for the new organics. By controlling the reapers, you could possibly "revive" some of these older races.

I'm still very upset that all three choices were bascially the same though with the same major plot holes and no closure. If they explained the ended in more depth and expanded on the impact of your choices through out the game more, I wouldn't be upset with the control ending.

[SuperVulcan]

Nothing after being blasted by Harbinger makes sense.

[Baal Sagoth]

Synthesis - It could be as fantastic as Child says, but there are some problems. Free will - Sheps basically forces everyone to become hybrid, noone have choice, there is no turning back, want it or not now You are synthetic. Ultimate stagnacy, end of evolution (something we consider as a purpose of organic life, but in ME synthetics seem to evolve too). And one what buggs me: Child says "Everything You are will be absorbed and then sent out" - Everything? Are You sure? If I played with pure Renegade I shot people as I wanted, I shot friends in the back, I tricked krogans and doomed them, I doomed Geth/Quarians. Generally I'm merciless bastard and You want to send that to everyone? Really.

Modifié par Baal Sagoth, 20 mars 2012 - 01:47 .

[Ryokun1989]

fadi_efendi wrote...
PS: I said I'd avoid inconsistencies, but I can't restrain myself from this one. Since in the end nothing is played out in a blaze of guns, why is the ending determined by War Assets? Unless the Catalyst is only convinced to grant us a new solution because of the power of our guns.

I took it to mean the Crucible is exactly that: a trial. The better you are at uniting the galaxy, the better you pass the trial and the stronger the crucible becomes. Therefore, the more possibilities become available.

[Ryokun1989]

Baal Sagoth wrote...

Synthesis - It could be as fantastic as Child says, but there are some problems. Free will - Sheps basically forces everyone to become hybrid, noone have choice, there is no turning back, want it or not now You are synthetic. Ultimate stagnacy, end of evolution (something we consider as a purpose of organic life, but in ME synthetics seem to evolve too). And one what buggs me: Child says "Everything You are will be absorbed and then sent out" - Everything? Are You sure? If I played with pure Renegade I shot people as I wanted, I shot friends in the back, I tricked krogans and doomed them, I doomed Geth/Quarians. Generally I'm merciless bastard and You want to send that to everyone? Really.

On the one hand I think that Shepard at this point represents all organics and is therefore empowered to make that choice. That's why *I* chose Synthesis.

On the other hand, this is a valid concern. And a reason not to choose synthesis. No option is *perfect*, that makes the choice relevant.

[pschill97]

Great job making huge assumptions there OP. You answer the first wave of questions that are thrown at you with nothing more then even more assumptions. Which are fantastic but you still are trying your very hardest to dodge the questions that loom about the plot holes. I looked through to see if you responded to any of the other questions and comments thrown at you about the plot holes that you failed to mention and I saw that you have not posted since.

Hold The Line.

Modifié par pschill97, 20 mars 2012 - 09:11 .

[fadi_efendi]

Ryokun1989 wrote...
I took it to mean the Crucible is exactly that: a trial. The better you are at uniting the galaxy, the better you pass the trial and the stronger the crucible becomes. Therefore, the more possibilities become available.

Thanks for the reply. Having read your comment but also your original post in the thread you opened, I have to say your interpretation is exactly what I'd like to avoid. A galactic war where countless lives have been lost in the most gruesome of ways cannot be revealed as a trial, a test, a riddle or an abstract mind game. ME was always about grand dilemmas, and certain choices always made me feel like a murderer (Wrex; Destiny Ascension; the genophage; the quarians/geth). In the ending all implications and consequences are gone, all gravity of your choice is gone (Think of the final video: Even if you choose "destroy", you don't see the geth dying).

Remember Battlestar Galactica, where synthetics kill 99.9% of the humans, then at the final moment everyhting is revealed as part of God's plan, which makes everybody live together happily ever after? This is kind of what is happening here, on top of a game largely devoid of any spiritual undertones.

[Ryokun1989]

fadi_efendi wrote...

Ryokun1989 wrote...
I took it to mean the Crucible is exactly that: a trial. The better you are at uniting the galaxy, the better you pass the trial and the stronger the crucible becomes. Therefore, the more possibilities become available.

Thanks for the reply. Having read your comment but also your original post in the thread you opened, I have to say your interpretation is exactly what I'd like to avoid. A galactic war where countless lives have been lost in the most gruesome of ways cannot be revealed as a trial, a test, a riddle or an abstract mind game. ME was always about grand dilemmas, and certain choices always made me feel like a murderer (Wrex; Destiny Ascension; the genophage; the quarians/geth). In the ending all implications and consequences are gone, all gravity of your choice is gone (Think of the final video: Even if you choose "destroy", you don't see the geth dying).

Remember Battlestar Galactica, where synthetics kill 99.9% of the humans, then at the final moment everyhting is revealed as part of God's plan, which makes everybody live together happily ever after? This is kind of what is happening here, on top of a game largely devoid of any spiritual undertones.

That's a fair point of view. But both here and in BSG those 'revelations' were a consequence of what came before.

And a trial doesn't have to be a mind game. The organic races are proving they can unite when they have to. It's not just Shepard being tried, it's all organic life.

Yes, this would be quite terrible in real life. In fiction, however, it serves as an allegory.
So I guess we'll just have to respectfully disagree on whether this constitutes good storytelling or not.

Modifié par Ryokun1989, 20 mars 2012 - 01:39 .

[Avissel]

 Yes, yes it most certainly could have ened another way.

[heathxxx]

I think the first "ending" is actually during the beginning sequence of the game.

During the Alliance leaders meeting, the Reapers land nearby and when one fires on the building, the room explodes and Shep is caught up amongst the rubble and debris.

Note how when Shep rises, the light in his eyes, akin to the tell-tale sign of "indoctrination". From that point on, Shep is "lead" to the "final" ending of the game.

It's all in his/her head.

Just my thoughts...

[Giga Drill BREAKER]

It could have ended the way it was supposed to, before they changed the plot into dribble

[yoshibb]

AtlasMickey wrote...

DarkRavin07 wrote...

Why was joker running?

To save the lives of the people aboard Normandy. If you saw the Citadel explode in an orb of light, and you were my pilot, I'd hope you do the same. AtreiyaN7 says it best and, if you need more regarding Joker, you should follow her posts. Joker blames himself for Shepard's death at the beginning of ME2. Maybe he learned from that mistake.

What space magic got my crew onto Normandy?

No magic, just an ordinary shuttle. They were either ordered to retreat or left on their own volition. They all said their good-byes and expressed their reluctance to be part of yet another suicide mission.

If you had a fondness for your love interest, or liked any of the other characters, it would not have been right to ask them to be part of a second suicide mission.

Ok... no. Joker is out by the Charon relay. The only way he can get there is retreating the final battle on earth before the relays began exploding since the relay in the sol system is out near Pluto. This would not happen.

And the crew did not express reluctance. They were with you until the end. They would not leave at the last minute to save themselves whether you wanted them to or not. This is a military operation to decide the fate of the galaxy. There was no running away and your crew knew that.

It was complete and utter character assassination on both parts. It's actually pretty insulting to them that you would believe that they would try to run and save themselves in the most pivotal battle in galactic history.

[SpideyKnight]

 You miss one crucial piece of the puzzle.  What about those that don't want to be part synthetic?

"We prefer to keep our own form." - Shepard

Transhumanism is all fine and dandy, for some, but not all wish for it.  Imposing it on those who wish to maintain their biological "purity" as it were, is wrong.  

All of that is besides the point though.  Your subject line is wrong.  It could've ended with answers.  With closure and not more questions.  With victory, and not the pangs of unevitable defeat.  With hope, not speculation.  It didn't.

Modifié par SpideyKnight, 29 mars 2012 - 01:40 .

[Jackgord]

There should be an ending where the reapers win

[Johanna]

SpideyKnight wrote...

Transhumanism is all fine and dandy, for some, but not all wish for it.  Imposing it on those who wish to maintain their biological "purity" as it were, is wrong.

This, so much.  My Shepard, and I reckon many other Shepards, would never make a choice that violates every sapient organic being in the galaxy. 

[SogaBan]

AtlasMickey wrote...

DarkRavin07 wrote...

Why was joker running?

To save the lives of the people aboard Normandy. If you saw the Citadel explode in an orb of light, and you were my pilot, I'd hope you do the same. AtreiyaN7 says it best and, if you need more regarding Joker, you should follow her posts. Joker blames himself for Shepard's death at the beginning of ME2. Maybe he learned from that mistake.

What space magic got my crew onto Normandy?

No magic, just an ordinary shuttle. They were either ordered to retreat or left on their own volition. They all said their good-byes and expressed their reluctance to be part of yet another suicide mission.

If you had a fondness for your love interest, or liked any of the other characters, it would not have been right to ask them to be part of a second suicide mission.

No Relays, how will the sol solar system support a fleet of that size?

The destruction of the relays is a major inconvenience but in the long run worth the price, particularly in the Synthesis ending. With the knowledge of the Reapers and organic life still intact and coexisting peacefully, they have the opportunity to create something even better than the relays, since the primary purpose of the relays was to manipulate the development of the younger races. More about the relays in this thread.

What happens to all your crew, you'll squadmates, friends.. ect?

Details. They all had and will continue to have lives of their own. Although it seems clear that Joker and EDI are symbolic Adam and Eve figures for a new age of galactic peace and love. 

Not to dismiss this question, though, because the complexity in answering it is why the story ends at that point. We really can't imagine what Synethesized life will be like. They will do so things so amazing and so advanced that it will be beyond our comprehension. Many scientists use the word "technological singularity" to describe this event, comparing it to the event horizon of the singularity of a black hole, a horizon which we can't see beyond. 

The story ends there because that's where our ability to tell the story ends. It couldn't have ended any other way.

It's really HARD to agree on the explanations to the valid questions. To start with:

Q#1 - Why Jeff escaping?

You said - survival instinct (in a nutshell). Well, that may be true for commonplace persons BUT NEVER for a marine (even in real life). Unless, they get orders from the hierarchy - they never deviate from what they were doing, in this case - beating the ass of the reapers. Had it been the case, Joker could have escaped during SSV Normandy blast and there are lots of examples in the trilogy to point out that negates your explanation. Plus all the crew and team members were sworn to see the end WITH their commander and not alone. Do you really think that Archangel is escaping to save his own ass... IMPOSSIBLE!!! And moreover, Hackett was still in contact with Shepard - hence, probably the entire Sword and Hammer fleet were well aware of Shepard surviving the Harbinger beam. LOTS and lots of holes...

Q#2 - How the accompanying squaddies got to Normandy?

You said - shuttle. The explanation is a logical one but NOT consistent. Do you really feel that they simply fled "out of their own volition"? James or Ashley/Kaida or Garrus or Liara or EDI or Javik or TALI or for that matter anyone will simply run away for their life, knowingly deceiving their commitments and camaraderie with their beloved commander??? You also gave another option that - probably they were ordered... Well, by whom? Because with Anderson and Shep out of picture, only Hackett is left out. Even if he gave the orders - on what rationale? Then why didn't he ordered the entire Sword fleet to flee and save their asses???

Q#3 - Relays broken - how to sustain so huge and diversified lives in Sol system?

You said - The destruction of the relays is a major inconvenience but in the long run worth the price. In Arrival DLC we have known that the destruction of a relay will emit so large amount of energy which resemble a cosmic nova explosion. THEN, how, in the first place, the Sol system (and in extension all the system in the galaxy) survives a relay explosion?? OKAY, let's think that this time the relay destruction was a MORE controlled one, so that it will destroy the relay megastructures only, leaving the system(s) unharmed. In that case, it poses more questions than it solves. The most striking question - (assuming that the escape of Normandy is well explained) how come the Normandy escapes the relay damage while still in relay transit? Theoretically, they should have been doomed in some black holes trajectories without any destination relays to come out from! Still, joker manages...

Q#4 - What happens to all (specially the LI and comrades-in-arms) after all?

You said - They all had and will continue to have lives of their own. Very excellent and simple answer, indeed! But my question is - if Shep opted to merge organics and synthetics (i.e. Synergy) the whether the Old man and his grand-kid were also some sort of cybernetic organics? What if the Destroy option was chosen (and the player had enough War assets for the Shep to survive)? The old man should have told his grand kid that Shep survived... Even then, let's consider that those two (grandfather and grandkid) were on some planet which is entirely cut off from any sort of relay network. Then how come even the grandfather knew the FINAL fight was won???

[free17]

I would type out some long-winded response to this thread, but I can't sum up my feelings on the OP any better than this:

[Zolt51]

Cool thread. Hold the lime.

Personally I have some problems with it, namely:

1 - the fact that I don't think there's such a thing as a "final" evolution. There's always some new places to go.
2 - evolution isn't one single road. It has millions of branches and exploring them all is where the fun is at.

But it's a very valid ending, especially in the ME context.

[AtlasMickey]

I don't have time to get to the other responses just yet, but this one is short:

Zolt51 wrote...

1 - the fact that I don't think there's such a thing as a "final" evolution. There's always some new places to go.
2 - evolution isn't one single road. It has millions of branches and exploring them all is where the fun is at.

I agree and take it for granted that the Catalyst means the "final" stage of evolution through blind forces of natural selection. Evolution will continue but will be directed by the force of intelligence. I'm really sad that people seem to have gleemed from the ending that Synthesis means less diversity and fewer branches to explore. My impression was just the opposite. In order to make the already existing complexity in life compatible, you have to add another layer of complexity! Perhaps many layers, a potentially infinite amount.


Also, I don't remember starting this thread in the strategy section. If a moderator could please move this back to the story section, I'd appreciate it.

[InHarmsWay]

Darkspwan hero wrote...

Synthesis is the final evolution of life THis will never be this would mean the end of Life

You know absolutely nothing of evolution if you honestly believe this.

[What a Succulent Ass]

That picture makes me sick every time.

Also, old thread is ancient.

[UrgentArchengel]

Yeah, my Shepard's a he...and he believes the Starbringer is full of it and only the Reapers died in the destroy ending.