127 réponses à ce sujet

[christrek1982]

Rhz wrote...

AtlasMickey wrote...

DarkRavin07 wrote...

Why was joker running?

To save the lives of the people aboard Normandy. If you saw the Citadel explode in an orb of light, and you were my pilot, I'd hope you do the same. AtreiyaN7 says it best and, if you need more regarding Joker, you should follow her posts. Joker blames himself for Shepard's death at the beginning of ME2. Maybe he learned from that mistake.

What space magic got my crew onto Normandy?

No magic, just an ordinary shuttle. They were either ordered to retreat or left on their own volition. They all said their good-byes and expressed their reluctance to be part of yet another suicide mission.

If you had a fondness for your love interest, or liked any of the other characters, it would not have been right to ask them to be part of a second suicide mission.

everyone running to the beam died -- somehow your squad mates survived and - what? they retreaded - got picked up by a shuttle and returning to the normandy without beeing sure if shepard survived? I dont think so

they would have been killed by the reaper or made it into the beam, I dont see any other options here

and hell .. "it would not have been right to ask them to be part of a second suicide mission" ... they would, regardless if you ask for their help or not

this not only was it a kick in the ball to be forced to kill shepherd after all that hopefull talk about having a pint in the pub or little blue babies.  but liara was soposed to love ny shephers so much that she when up aginst one of biggest crime lords in the galaxy to get Shepherds body back and as much as say she did it because she can't let shepherd go.  then at the end when shepherd needs her the most she just leave.  that last scean where she all smiles almost saying "Well I'm ok F  you shepherd"  well that was just twisting the knif.

[wright1978]

If a non-sensical joke ending sequence is the only way Mass Effect could have ended either i have fallen into an alternative reality where as Ellen Ripley would say 'Did IQ's just suddenly drop while i was away!' or Bioware hired a finite number of monkeys to do the task. If as i believe they still have in their employ many highly talented writers they clearly could have so much better.

[christrek1982]

Jackgord wrote...

There should be an ending where the reapers win

just as the should be an ending where Shepherd lives with LI.

[Ecrulis]

I'm sorry but whether or not the ending choices are done well (they aren't) is irrelevant. The bottom line is that the premise to which the choices are based is false, at least as the ME universe is presented to us.

Synthetics will eventually kill all organics.

Geth vs quarians
-as early as ME1 its implied that the geth were just defending themselves against the quarians
-in me2 we find out that the heretics were not the majority of geth and that the majority of geth do not wish to harm organics
-in me3 we find out that the quarians started the war and that the geth purposefully didn't wipe out the quarians
-and finally we can see the geth and quarians living together peacefully

The Heretics
-the only reason the heretics are attacking organics is because of the reapers, you know the supposed solution to the "problem"

The Prothean Cycle
-the protheans were about to defeat the AI in heir war when the reapers showed up. Yea great job SC

All evidence we see paints the above statement as false and all we get from the SC is I said so. You do not introduce a new plot this late in a trilogy that is bad writing, its never worked for M. Night Shyamalan and it certainly doesn't work for Mass Effect.

[N7Gold]

It's not biologically possible to be organic and synthetic at the same time. If you end up having tech in your body, they'll replace all your organs, even your soul, as Mordin once noted in ME2 about the Protheans's transformation into Collectors.

[Taboo]

N7Gold wrote...

It's not biologically possible to be organic and synthetic at the same time. If you end up having tech in your body, they'll replace all your organs, even your soul, as Mordin once noted in ME2 about the Protheans's transformation into Collectors.

Shhhhhhhh. STOP THINKING.

You'll upset the Pro-Synthesis people.

But seriously, it could have ended any NUMBER of different ways.

[Ecrulis]

Synthesis just pissed me off cause it solves literally nothing unless magic green wave lobotomizes everyone it touches. Saying there will be no war because we're all cyborgs is like saying there isn't any war because we are all human.

[Ecrulis]

Not to mention how asinine the concept of a final point in evolution is, hey you know who the last person to talk about a final point in evolution was? Sovereign. Congrats! You agree with sovereign.

[zombieord]

AtlasMickey wrote...

The apparent sameness of the endings and lack of choice is a statement about inevitability regarding organics and synthetics. 

Or, more than likely, a cop out. Look at all the lazy corners ME3 cut even before the ending.

[Ecrulis]

Pretty much what's said above and as I've said the whole synthetics will kill organics is complete and total bull

[Shepard Wins]

What, this thread still exists?

[AtlasMickey]

Taboo-XX wrote...

N7Gold wrote...

It's not biologically possible to be organic and synthetic at the same time. If you end up having tech in your body, they'll replace all your organs, even your soul, as Mordin once noted in ME2 about the Protheans's transformation into Collectors.

Shhhhhhhh. STOP THINKING.

You'll upset the Pro-Synthesis people.

But seriously, it could have ended any NUMBER of different ways.

After making this thread and recalling statements like Mordin's, I came to think that Mass Effect advocates vitalism, which is putting it charitably because that reserves some modicum of scientific thought. If I wasn't so charitable I would just say supernatural spiritual space magic et al.

The story of life will not end any other way, though. Once life becomes intelligent enough that it can direct its own biological changes, then evolution through natural selection will cease.

[Taboo]

Vitalism....is a very old area of thought. Like real old. Like Plato was talking about it.

Vitalism is unfalsifiable though, which means that it isn't taken seriously in the scientific community. It would probably be placed together with things like ESP and crystal healing. A pseudo-science.

It's a lot like Freud and psychoanalysis. It's a fun idea but it falls apart when you try and test it.

You are not wrong, but the application in the real world doesn't really apply here.

[Iakus]

AtlasMickey wrote...

After making this thread and recalling statements like Mordin's, I came to think that Mass Effect advocates vitalism, which is putting it charitably because that reserves some modicum of scientific thought. If I wasn't so charitable I would just say supernatural spiritual space magic et al.

Isn't that what the green beam is, anyway?  Supernatural space magic that makes everything live in peace and harmony because "it's all just life now"?

The story of life will not end any other way, though. Once life becomes intelligent enough that it can direct its own biological changes, then evolution through natural selection will cease.

How do you even know that's what Synthesis does?  Even if it does, how does that bring about peace?

[AtlasMickey]

Vitalism is falsifiable. If you produce a life form using purely chemical and physical processes, then it's falsified.

You're right in that its status is close to that of pseudo-science because our understanding of organic chemistry is such that it doesn't appear forces other than chemical and physical are necessary. Nonetheless this is what the far majority of people believe, at least when it comes to intelligent life, and it seems the writers of Mass Effect are no exception.

[Taboo]

I think we give a great deal of credit to the writers here.

From what I understand even the Blue Brain experiments didn't produce much of anything. A synthetic life form is possible, at least in what I'm picturing in my head. However I still haven't figured out if beings like the Geth are substrate dependent. That is to say they contain all the necessary elements to evolve like we do, without outside data. This is what limits the Catalyst for example, eventually he will reach a loop, which I believe he has.

This would actually be really interesting to talk to Richard Dawkins about. I know you can send him emails and that he does answer them. That would be a pretty interesting discussion don't you think?

Modifié par Taboo-XX, 04 juin 2012 - 06:32 .

[AtlasMickey]

iakus wrote...

AtlasMickey wrote...

After making this thread and recalling statements like Mordin's, I came to think that Mass Effect advocates vitalism, which is putting it charitably because that reserves some modicum of scientific thought. If I wasn't so charitable I would just say supernatural spiritual space magic et al.

Isn't that what the green beam is, anyway?  Supernatural space magic that makes everything live in peace and harmony because "it's all just life now"?

The story of life will not end any other way, though. Once life becomes intelligent enough that it can direct its own biological changes, then evolution through natural selection will cease.

How do you even know that's what Synthesis does?  Even if it does, how does that bring about peace?

The green beam's capabilities are limited to the galactic scale and require the depletion of stored energy in the galactic relays, so I do not see it as supernatural. The green beam is a Type III-level computational device that spreads information throughout the galaxy and reorganizes all intelligent synthetic and organic life within its range.

That's where my knowledge stops, though, so you ask pertinent questions. How do I know that Synthesis bestows upon everyone the knowledge to modify themselves? I don't know that it does but civilization was on the cusp of it anyway, which could even be said of us now in the year 2012. If Mass Effect relies on vitalism, then the knowledge of the vitalistic force would have been baked into Crucible so that it could be bestowed on synthetics. How do I know that all this will create peace? I don't, but the green beam required Shepard to give up herself and I surmise the most complex and valuable thing that Shepard had to offer is her emotional intelligence, which brokered peace between the Geth and Quarians, the Krogan and Turians and the Salarians, and many other peaceful things, that the green beam computed all these capabilities from Shepard and used that to inform its reorganization of life. Even if it did not, our destiny is peace in real life anyway because that's where greater emotional intelligence leads and life is always selecting for greater emotional intellgience. 

[Taboo]

Such a peace would require a forced change. A change in fundamental brain chemistry. Such beings would be...emotionally flaccid. Such a state would be somewhat resemble THX 1138. Beings would be forced into some sort of emotional stasis. People would be bred only to further the cause of production.

Organisms vie against one another because that's the way they evolve. A perceived end point would be impossible. You could cause a hyperbolic growth, but at some point said beings would stop.

I would consider a being that is used soley for the benefit of others to be a perverse form of altruism, the opposite of Ayn Rand's objectivism. The thing is is that both are equally disgusting.

To help one another is a duty now, and would be more than evident in those who are going to help the galaxy rebuild.

Modifié par Taboo-XX, 04 juin 2012 - 07:11 .

[AtlasMickey]

Taboo-XX wrote...

I think we give a great deal of credit to the writers here.

From what I understand even the Blue Brain experiments didn't produce much of anything. A synthetic life form is possible, at least in what I'm picturing in my head. However I still haven't figured out if beings like the Geth are substrate dependent. That is to say they contain all the necessary elements to evolve like we do, without outside data. This is what limits the Catalyst for example, eventually he will reach a loop, which I believe he has.

This would actually be really interesting to talk to Richard Dawkins about. I know you can send him emails and that he does answer them. That would be a pretty interesting discussion don't you think?

I follow his work rather closely and he is totally on board with the idea that organic life can be understood as computation and that evolution itself doesn't necessarily need organic components, just replicators and differentiation, meaning the Geth can evolve through natural selection independent of substrate.

Dawkins would object to some of the things I'm saying, or at least tell me not to be so hasty. When I say that life is always selecting for greater emotional intelligence, he would address it with a healthy professional skepticism, "really? what do you mean by that exactly?" As a professional he wouldn't delve too deeply into these kinds of discussions. To get an idea of the kind of thing that he would discuss in depth, check out this book review he wrote recently, where he decries E.O. WIlson's advocacy of the theory of "group selection."

http://www.prospectm...origin-species/

[M920CAIN]

Ajna wrote...

AtlasMickey wrote...



So Shepard has the option to murder innocent life (EDI and Geth) by choosing destroy, or to sacrifice all that she is to order the Reapers to retreat against their will by choosing control, or be the vanguard of love and peace she was throughout the whole series, infusing the Crucible's energy with her compassion, and discharging it through the cosmos. She gives all life, organic and synthetic, the opportunity to have the best of both worlds, with the power and freedom to construct their lives as they see fit. 

That is the destiny of life, to live in freedom, peace, and propersity through intelligence, love, and compassion.

This paragraph describes the beauty I see in it, it gels with me on a personal level and I can accept it, but...I don't have the words to externalise my thoughts right now.  Thankyou for vocalising it though, it's an amazing thought if that were the intention, and one that had indeed crossed my mind when I'd been trying to work out wth had happened, but things are still missing for a lot of people.  Things are still missing for me.

That's actually BS because "freedom to construct their lives as they see fit." was taken away from everyone the moment they became flesh-machine hybrids. Shepard is doing something AGAINST other people/aliens' will. He is forcing synthesis on them. I don't remember anyone voting for synthesis prior to Shepard jumping in that beam. Pretty sure everyone wanted to get rid of them, as in destroy the Reapers, or at the very least defeat them somehow, which synthesis is very vague on details. Seeing a green Joker is a bit horrifying...

[AtlasMickey]

Taboo-XX wrote...

Such a peace would require a forced change. A change in fundamental brain chemistry. 

Again, I'm probably giving the writers too much credit, but I think it's a lot more complex than that. When you have the information and capability to love to the extent that Shepard does, you can still choose to do so or not.

M920CAIN wrote...
 I don't remember anyone voting for synthesis prior to Shepard jumping in that beam.

The Quarians, all biotics, Reaper-coded Geth, EDI, it's all information in the end anyways. That's why I wonder whether Mass Effect assumes some form of vitalism because given their tehcnological progress all civilizations should have recognized that they were made out of the same stuff and AI shouldn't have been that controversial. 

As if no one in that universe ever watched Star Trek: The Next Generation.

Modifié par AtlasMickey, 04 juin 2012 - 07:49 .

[Bill Casey]

Synthesis is the single most evil act I have ever seen...
You have thoroughly raped the universe...

It's so ****ing wrong...
I hate it...

I am furious at you...

[Subguy614]

AtlasMickey wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

I think we give a great deal of credit to the writers here.

From what I understand even the Blue Brain experiments didn't produce much of anything. A synthetic life form is possible, at least in what I'm picturing in my head. However I still haven't figured out if beings like the Geth are substrate dependent. That is to say they contain all the necessary elements to evolve like we do, without outside data. This is what limits the Catalyst for example, eventually he will reach a loop, which I believe he has.

This would actually be really interesting to talk to Richard Dawkins about. I know you can send him emails and that he does answer them. That would be a pretty interesting discussion don't you think?

I follow his work rather closely and he is totally on board with the idea that organic life can be understood as computation and that evolution itself doesn't necessarily need organic components, just replicators and differentiation, meaning the Geth can evolve through natural selection independent of substrate.

Dawkins would object to some of the things I'm saying, or at least tell me not to be so hasty. When I say that life is always selecting for greater emotional intelligence, he would address it with a healthy professional skepticism, "really? what do you mean by that exactly?" As a professional he wouldn't delve too deeply into these kinds of discussions. To get an idea of the kind of thing that he would discuss in depth, check out this book review he wrote recently, where he decries E.O. WIlson's advocacy of the theory of "group selection."

http://www.prospectm...origin-species/

OK both of you. You've lost me now. I thought I was playing a video game not getting doctorates in philosophy, biology, computer science, and whatever else you guys are saying.

If I have to know all that to make sense of the ending....I think I'll play Borderlands instead.

[Bill Casey]

Bioware has conceived an ideology that is beyond unethical...
I was a calm easy going person before this game. I had no problems debating religion or politics...
But this...

This is thoroughly offensive...
You may as well have spent forty five minutes punching a baby in the face in front of me...

Modifié par Bill Casey, 04 juin 2012 - 08:03 .

[MsKlaussen]

l3ol3o wrote...

To me, out of all the endings, the only one that felt right was controlling the reapers. The entire purpose of the game was to save civilization and end the war with AI's.

Destroying the reapers solves the problem for a little bit. The reapers are gone, but like Stargodchild said, new AI's will be created again and the war will start once again. IMO this isn't acceptable. With this ending, you are only winning a battle against Synthetics and not the war.

Synthesising with end the war, but it will change civilization as we know it. Organics will be no more and life will be totally different.

Out of all the options I think controlling the reapers is the best of the three options. Let me state that I would have liked more choices but I since we don't, I will talk about why I favored this ending. To control the reapers, Shepard had to sacrafice himself. I have no problem with this and expected this.

With Shepard in control of the reapers though, civilization can live on. Shepard can even use the reapers to help rebuild earth and eventually rebuild the Mass Effect relays. When Organics eventually create synthetics again, Shepard can roll in with his Reapers and wipe out the new synthetics to save Organics once again. He can protect humanity and the rest of the galaxy from other threats by using the reapers.

Keep in mind that the Stargodchild also mentioned that the reapers harvested and stored all of the past cycles to make room for the new organics. By controlling the reapers, you could possibly "revive" some of these older races.

I'm still very upset that all three choices were bascially the same though with the same major plot holes and no closure. If they explained the ended in more depth and expanded on the impact of your choices through out the game more, I wouldn't be upset with the control ending.

But then Shepard has done nothing but replace the devil the galaxy doesn't know with the one it does. And becomes what she despises in the process. I can't see this being the most palatable of the "choices", for lack of a better word.

In truth, I can see (again in theory) how both the destroy and control choices could have started out appealing to Shepard, at least at the outset (like up to the start of ME3). I imagine my Shepard had dreams of both what it would be like with the Reapers power harnessed floating around her head almost as much as life with them removed completely.

But with so little difference in the aftermath, I can't even really see them as separate ideals. As for synthesis, this to me is the elimination of both races, organic and synthetic. Neither continues to exist as is. Both lose something of themselves to acquire something else that can be considered either better or worse depending on who is asked. This is just another form of destruction, no matter how it is spun.

Ultimately, in addition to these, there should have been an option to battle the Reapers to the last man and woman - a scenario (the only scenario) that would have made EMS a relevant addition. Then you can end up with many more outcomes in which the fate of different races is determined, the fate of friends is determined, and also the survival of Shepard is determined. More war assets and EMS equals better faring for the galaxy with less losses. Shepard's team survives at a much higher level. Shepard's love interest, an even higher level. Shepard at higher even than that.

But survival, which was the goal of the player for 6 years, is as possible as was implied from day one. And as you can see from my examples above, there is no such thing as a happy ending. There are only multiple levels of "sad". Which is what everyone was prepared for. You want bittersweet? Try starting off every remaining day of the rest of your life with "why them and not me?"

Look at the end of The Mist movie. Did that man's survival really look like a Miller Time moment to you? Someone mentioned the party at the end of Star Wars. However nobody mentioned the morning after when it was time to take stock of how many died defeating the Empire. And that morning always comes.

Survival is pain, loss, guilt, and regret. A quote from a great movie :

"What happens after we do it? What do we do then?"

     " - Well, then you live with it.."
 

Modifié par MsKlaussen, 04 juin 2012 - 08:07 .